EXPERIENCE 200 | Nate Hines - Philosopher, Historian, and President of Hines, Inc. - Sustainable Design Solutions for Water and Life and Business

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Nate Hines is the president of Hines, Inc.

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A global leader in design solutions for irrigation water management.

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He is a husband, father, armchair historian, philosopher, and business enthusiast.

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He received a secondary education from Oxford University with degrees in history and ancient history.

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Welcome back to the Loco Experience podcast.

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My guest today is Nate Hines and he is the president of Hines Inc.

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So tell me Nate, um, what kind of catch ups do you guys make?

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We make the kind that don't make us billionaires.

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You don't make it, you catch up on projects.

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Sometimes we catch up on projects.

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So, but for the uninitiated, uh, Heinz does what you all water, mostly all water related stuff.

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You're kind of.

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National water experts of sorts.

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Yeah, we're reasonable to say and An engineering company we focus on irrigation system design Okay, and so 20 years ago, you're just designing irrigation systems and so like here in for like for regular old farmers Well, we do some AG.

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Yeah center pivot work and things like that for AG groups Most of what we do though is municipal.

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Oh like City of Fort Collins having gorgeous flowers all all around Summer long, exactly.

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Or every major regional park in the city.

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We've done the irrigation systems, the play fountains where the kids play and mechanical and water quality and things like that.

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What's the like special sauce around that?

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Like, I'm assuming, especially for a city like Fort Collins, like don't use too much water, like make it as efficient as possible.

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I mean, really just good hydraulic engineering is important and there's a certain magic to.

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analyzing water demand for different types of plant materials.

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Okay.

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So if you're thinking today about How much water a plant is going to need 10 years from now and how to size the system for that So that you're not over building or under building a system.

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There's there's some magic there We don't quite know what the weather is gonna be.

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We don't quite know how the system's gonna be maintained Yeah, so we've we've built quite a bit of intelligence into answering that question and you do this for Places all around the country like not just Fort Collins.

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Those are some of the visible nearby ones Yeah, we we are we have 30 people now in 13 states.

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Oh, wow with six primary offices across the country Okay.

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Okay, so it's an odd little niche industry But water is getting very very expensive around the country.

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Yeah, and if water is not expensive construction costs are And we've spent a bunch of time analyzing how much people pay for these systems around the country.

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And we can, we save them a bunch.

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It's not something typically that, that hydraulic engineers pay attention to, right?

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Um, because of its kind of small niche, um, place in the world.

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Oh, okay.

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So you're like hydraulic engineers, but working on more of a micro, not micro, but small scale stuff where the real hydraulic engineers don't really spend too much time.

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They're doing big stormwater.

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distribution systems, water treatment plants, things like that.

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Right.

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And, and your biggest things are like drainage passways and parks and stuff like that.

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Oh yeah.

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Oh yeah.

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And your smallest things are little drip lines that go to all the little pots in the city.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And what's funny about it is, you know, irrigation is this sort of not unimportant, but small and recognized part of site development.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Water being as expensive and hard to get as it is today.

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Yeah.

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Um, that part of the industry is changing because 50 to 70 percent of the water we use in the city goes on plant material.

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You know, I just thought of an invention for you if you can come up with the technology.

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But if you had, like there's, there's always relative humidity of like 30, 40 percent even around here, right?

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Oh yeah.

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You know the the South even in some places where they kind of have dry conditions a lot.

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It's always really humid Yeah, if you could have a little tiny solar powered water extractor To like gather up the water and oh, yeah push it onto the plants that would be pretty useful Yes, it's a solar panels.

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I get enough water I mean on, on, uh, like multifamily projects in a place like Texas, we can get, uh, almost all their summer irrigation water off of the cooling system, off condensate, just pulling the evaporated water off of their chillers.

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Yeah.

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Cause otherwise that just drips down, right?

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Yeah.

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It runs out to storm sewer or sanitary.

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So there's a lot of cool things we can do there with water harvesting, reduction of water use.

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Interesting.

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Um, we were on a project overseas that I can't, um, say the name of because we have all these NDAs, wacky NDAs, and that sort of thing.

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But a lot of work was put into that.

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Looking at technologies like that.

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How do we evaporate water like where they're trying to build huge cities?

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In the desert and stuff like that is those kind of big long element cities.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah Yeah, I've been reading about those a little bit.

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Well, and what an interesting Like you've got all the energy you need.

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Yeah Right?

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Like you got solar coming out the wazoo.

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Oh yeah.

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Oh yeah.

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Um, and if you can shield the living space properly and use water effectively, it's an interesting lifestyle.

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It is.

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Yeah, it's pretty cool.

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And we look at probably 15 to 20, 000 systems and how they operate a year.

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Oh wow.

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Um, and we get data from some of the big water conservation groups in the country that are analyzing these things.

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And about half of the irrigation systems in the country over water by a hundred percent on average, we over water by about 65%.

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Oh wow.

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So it's great to go in and, um, change landscapes, fully support that, but, um.

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People then just overwater their drought and tolerant landscapes and kill them.

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Oh, wow.

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So the important thing to do, I think, is to start managing the water responsibly as you're making changes to landscape.

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And, um, and then I get the sense that there's plenty of water to go.

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Oh yeah.

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You put all these water.

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drought tolerant plants in and stuff like that.

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And then people are just like, well, the thing runs Tuesday through Friday from these times or whatever, all their plans.

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Well, and you notice in our office here, uh, we've got a pretty good plant selection, including a fairly healthy money tree.

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And the big thing with keeping good plants is don't overwater them.

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Yeah.

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You know, once a week is plenty for almost every plant.

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You know, paying attention to where they're at.

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Um, do you use technology like that as well?

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Um, where you can actually have sensors about how dry things are, so you can know how much water to use?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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That's part of being efficient with the delivery, I imagine?

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Yeah, it's, and, and the technology to really manage an irrigation system as tightly as you'd like has been, is one it's there.

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Um, two, it's modernized cloud based.

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Yeah.

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I think about smart homes and stuff.

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If I can turn my heater on in different rooms and stuff, I can do water flow kind of automations.

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Yeah.

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The, the, the, the technology part doesn't tend to be the problem.

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The problem tends to either be poor planning and design and then poor construction and long term management.

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Those are the two.

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Big issues.

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Okay, and we see a lot of money poured into great technology that just never gets used now Are you strictly design or do you actually build stuff too?

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We don't do any construction guys work with paper Yeah, we're designers and then we're computers.

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We're on site papers for stuff Okay, like we we see ourselves as being like the the white lab coat wearing.

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Yeah Scientists with dirty work boots.

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Yeah, we're out in the field doing quite a bit, but We put the shovel down a long time ago.

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You're mostly making sure they're building it to the specs that your designs portent.

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And so then you're working with architects a lot of times?

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Is that who hires you ultimately?

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Or existing property owners also a lot of times retrofitting doing things?

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60 percent of our clients are either landscape architects, architects, or engineers.

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Okay.

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So they hire us to do a job.

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Yep.

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And then 40 percent are direct for land owners.

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Hmm.

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And they're the end user.

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Yep.

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Um, and that, that percentage has been growing a lot for the last five years, like you had a big municipal chunk for a long time and you know that process, but then people just want more of this from a private basis.

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Is that correct?

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Correct.

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Yeah, most of that, what we see, we'll see a city come to us directly.

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We'll see a developer come to us directly and they'll say, Uh, getting water is the most expensive, getting water for irrigation specifically is the most expensive part of developing this site.

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And so they want us to run due diligence to see if their project even can pencil.

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So if we're in Colorado.

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Texas, California, some of these expensive New Mexico high water states.

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If you don't have water, your land value is zero.

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Well, and like I read some of the articles in that, uh, Montava project up north.

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I don't know.

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Is that something you've been involved with?

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Um, super cool guy.

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I like that developer a lot.

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I don't know where it's at.

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I love that guy so much.

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I need to reach back out to him.

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He was on the yes, but soon list for the podcast here a while back.

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But the way that the, that development was treated about like how much water had to be delivered and what times and like, frankly, the, all the, it seemed to me at least that 70 percent of the complexity around that project was.

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Related to water?

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Absolutely.

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No question.

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Yeah.

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And there's a bunch of, uh, complexity in water rights.

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There's a bunch of complexity in infrastructure design.

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Um, it's been probably five years since we did this cost analysis for max, but potable water for irrigation on that site would have cost somewhere in the neighborhood of a hundred million dollars for the water rights.

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So figuring out how to get non potable water to be able to have plant life in this development.

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Huge.

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I mean, you cut your costs by 70%.

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And so where did that non potable water come from in that circumstance?

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Well, Was it capturing runoff from that development or, or how?

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They've got quite a bit of, um, uh, of existing wells.

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Yeah, yeah.

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On the property.

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Okay.

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Yep.

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And so we did a projection on, um, Uh, if you look at the decreed volume, those wells could use and have been using for agricultural purposes.

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Nope.

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And then we look at no change of use.

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So you're fine.

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Yep.

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All the irrigation water they would ever need.

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Was, uh, like a 70, 75 percent discount or reduction over what has been used.

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Oh, right.

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Right.

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So really smart planning there.

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Um, and, and I don't know all of the details.

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They're going through a water court process for how they build their system and do all of these things, which is, which is great.

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Um, and Max will, you know, Max will get that done.

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Yeah.

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Uh, but the amount of water they're saving is extraordinary and they'll do everything they can non potably.

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Yeah.

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Um, residential lots, open space, everything.

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They won't need to use drinking water for anything from a, from a business structure standpoint, you're more like a, a Northern engineering, civil engineer or something like that.

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Then, um, or an architecture firm a little bit, but especially more like an engineering firm where it's, you know, we bid projects, we charge time and time, mostly time.

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It's a service hourly billing kind of thing.

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Huge mistake getting into the service business where I sell my time for money.

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At least you got white coat.

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It's been great.

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And if you got muddy boots.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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Um, and then probably just a pretty light administrative kind of headquarters team.

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How do you generate.

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Leads and sales, is there a marketing function of significance, or is it mostly turning in bids and more of that kind of work?

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Um, traditional approach in our industry that, that I've seen is that you have people who do design work in the space for many years, and as they do that, they rise to a principal level.

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And when you get to a principal level, that means that you're overseeing a lot of project work, you're participating in project work and then on your nights and weekends, you're trying to jump and drum up business.

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Yeah.

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And especially if the pipeline's a little low.

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Oh yeah.

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And you know, the many, many solid businesses, excellent rec reputations, uh, word of mouth.

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All good things.

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Um, the inherent problem that I see with that is that you, you, you turn and you face your client.

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You say, Hey, remember me?

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I'd love to do some work with you.

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Let's do some work project comes along, you get it.

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And then you turn around and you do the project.

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And then six months later, you turn back around and you ask your client, Hey, is there a project?

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And maybe there is, or maybe someone else has gotten the project or maybe one will start.

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In another six months.

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And so, um, I didn't like that very much.

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And so we started, um, I think in 2017, 2018, we started hiring principals in the company whose sole function was client relationships and winning work.

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Oh, interesting.

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Um, and so Matt Hall was our first principal who came on board.

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He runs our Texas office now he's down in Dallas.

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And, um, and then we added.

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Some principals over time.

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Each office basically has a principal or more than one, but right now we're regional, right?

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So we have one in Florida, we've got one in the Midwest, we have one in Texas, and then I just hired, um, a principal here in the Colorado office three months ago.

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All right.

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Uh, shout out Meredith Larson, you're killing a girl.

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Um, and, um, and then what we started doing, so, so that is working and has been going well.

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And then to feed.

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Um, we hired in a business development function last year, beginning of this year.

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Um, and so Kind of from the headquarters for all these different regions and stuff like that.

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That's probably at least in part why you've been more popular on LinkedIn lately.

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I've been seeing all your thoughtful posts.

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My team is helping me so much.

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I am not a, I'm not naturally drawn to social media.

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I have zero accounts.

00:16:03.330 --> 00:16:07.110
Um, I tried to sell something on Facebook marketplace and they shut me down.

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I'm still blocked and banned.

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I'm like, please buy my motorcycle.

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Have a nice day.

00:16:12.850 --> 00:16:14.309
Flagged, shut down.

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I can't access anything.

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So it's, um, but they, they do have me on LinkedIn and, um, and then our, our BDR function, Cameron, he's an, he's a rockstar.

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Cool.

00:16:24.789 --> 00:16:26.570
He calls 300 people a week.

00:16:26.789 --> 00:16:27.419
Oh, dang.

00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:28.549
Sometimes in a day.

00:16:28.809 --> 00:16:33.279
He'll work through 300 people and just, hi, I'm cam.

00:16:33.350 --> 00:16:34.720
I want to talk to you about irrigation.

00:16:35.429 --> 00:16:37.279
And he turns.

00:16:38.434 --> 00:16:44.544
Perspective clients into people that are interested in having a value based conversation with me, Matt or Meredith.

00:16:44.644 --> 00:16:44.825
Yeah.

00:16:44.825 --> 00:16:47.105
Yeah And he's been awesome.

00:16:47.284 --> 00:16:54.975
I mean, it's just incredible I wonder how look with a big look with think tank would be right now if I had somebody calling 300 people a week And they wanted to be in it.

00:16:55.075 --> 00:16:58.909
Yeah Get more facilitators faster, too.

00:16:59.139 --> 00:16:59.570
That's right.

00:17:00.409 --> 00:17:01.850
But I'm sure Cam would call them, too.

00:17:01.940 --> 00:17:03.940
Well, and you want to make sure they're people you want to talk with.

00:17:03.970 --> 00:17:05.789
Well, and a miserable experience.

00:17:05.849 --> 00:17:06.640
Yeah, exactly.

00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.079
That's one of the really challenging things about my business.

00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:18.565
Like, anybody that wants to pay you a bunch of money to do some irrigation, water design stuff, like, unless they're like, you know, a satanic temple, you're gonna be like, Sure.

00:17:18.994 --> 00:17:19.345
That's right.

00:17:19.384 --> 00:17:26.744
Whereas, you know, being a member of local think tank, it's like, I don't know, are you cool, not sure if I want you in my thing yet.

00:17:26.914 --> 00:17:27.365
Yeah, sure.

00:17:27.444 --> 00:17:29.464
Um, so, well, that's cool.

00:17:29.464 --> 00:17:40.234
That's a really interesting, and then can you turn, turn it up and turn it down at all, as far as like, uh, based on how, with your pipeline and stuff like that.

00:17:40.265 --> 00:17:41.644
Cause that's part of the challenge, right?

00:17:41.664 --> 00:17:44.914
Like, how do you take, take your foot off the gas pedal for a while.

00:17:45.295 --> 00:17:45.595
Yeah.

00:17:45.595 --> 00:17:47.585
Right now, Cameron, we're sending you on a trip.

00:17:47.934 --> 00:17:50.095
We don't need any more leads for a while.

00:17:50.484 --> 00:17:51.515
We're going to pay you everything.

00:17:51.515 --> 00:17:53.865
Just stop doing the project in Saudi.

00:17:53.865 --> 00:17:55.704
Yeah.

00:17:55.785 --> 00:17:58.724
It's, um, we're learning a bunch about timing right now.

00:17:58.755 --> 00:18:05.265
So it's, it's, um, uh, we did our strategic planning in September.

00:18:05.305 --> 00:18:06.025
So we look back at.

00:18:06.424 --> 00:18:11.214
2024, how it's been going, how we think it's going to finish up and then start building plans.

00:18:11.214 --> 00:18:14.535
So January 1st, we are ready to go.

00:18:15.015 --> 00:18:17.355
Um, uh, you know, in the new year.

00:18:17.424 --> 00:18:17.954
Yeah.

00:18:18.025 --> 00:18:27.384
And, um, it takes an average of 202 days from the day we write a proposal to getting that proposal signed.

00:18:28.315 --> 00:18:33.474
To starting the project and sending a first invoice and then receiving a dollar back.

00:18:34.325 --> 00:18:42.365
So we spend a certain number of dollars every day, the first 200 days, and we don't get anything back for six, over six months.

00:18:43.375 --> 00:18:44.339
Um, first check.

00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:46.799
covers most of what you've spent so far.

00:18:47.099 --> 00:18:53.730
That first check could be, we, we could get paid for a hundred percent of a project or we could get paid for 10 percent of a project.

00:18:54.609 --> 00:18:59.579
So you've got to have a certain amount of projects going organized to quality.

00:18:59.619 --> 00:19:03.380
I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a cool problem to solve.

00:19:03.950 --> 00:19:13.450
Um, and so what we've learned is we've learned how much each principal can manage from a number of clients.

00:19:14.109 --> 00:19:18.809
And then a dollar value of proposals written, proposals signed.

00:19:19.049 --> 00:19:19.390
Yep.

00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:22.529
And we can generally tie that to the number of people they're with.

00:19:22.549 --> 00:19:33.240
Well, and how many, like the dollar value of a proposal is to some extent, man hours of engineer people doing math and drawing lines on their fancy programming stuff.

00:19:33.250 --> 00:19:33.640
Yeah.

00:19:33.710 --> 00:19:36.170
Every project we write, we've got a man hour budget.

00:19:36.569 --> 00:19:38.329
We've got, when is this work going to hit?

00:19:38.509 --> 00:19:38.809
Yeah.

00:19:38.930 --> 00:19:44.329
Um, so we can hand that every week as we're signing projects every week, we hand that to the engineering team.

00:19:44.394 --> 00:19:51.845
Uh, complexity, region of the country, man, our budget, what kind of team do you need to have in place to execute this?

00:19:51.845 --> 00:19:52.724
What schedule?

00:19:52.875 --> 00:19:53.924
Work is remote.

00:19:53.974 --> 00:19:56.914
Some of it does require muddy boots, all that kind of stuff.

00:19:57.275 --> 00:20:00.730
Did you, is that, did you create something proprietary to the team?

00:20:00.940 --> 00:20:03.950
figure out all these kind of scheduling and hour estimations?

00:20:03.950 --> 00:20:10.630
And is it a big whiteboard thing or is there like industry software that helps to figure out that stuff?

00:20:10.670 --> 00:20:12.720
So we've gone, we've run the gamut, right?

00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:15.000
When, when, uh, Heinz was started.

00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.029
So Heinz is a family business for 30 years old.

00:20:17.069 --> 00:20:17.289
Yeah.

00:20:17.289 --> 00:20:17.529
Yeah.

00:20:17.569 --> 00:20:18.930
I bought it eight years ago.

00:20:19.250 --> 00:20:20.099
Oh, is that okay.

00:20:20.140 --> 00:20:23.980
And, and eight years ago, you know, we had a great spreadsheet we were using.

00:20:24.630 --> 00:20:25.519
It was, it was good.

00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:30.095
And our revenue was, Um, like one and a half million dollars a year.

00:20:30.654 --> 00:20:33.674
So awesome family business.

00:20:33.684 --> 00:20:35.234
Really, really good reputation.

00:20:35.234 --> 00:20:38.005
Really great client base, largely in Colorado and Arizona.

00:20:38.565 --> 00:20:41.464
Seven employees or 12 or something at that time.

00:20:41.464 --> 00:20:43.714
We were six or seven folks at the time.

00:20:44.384 --> 00:20:50.700
Um, and today we have some proprietary softwares we've built.

00:20:51.529 --> 00:20:59.579
Um, and then, and then we've written the process flows and the workflows that we need for to make our stuff work.

00:20:59.609 --> 00:21:02.369
And then we've paired that with an off the shelf software.

00:21:02.869 --> 00:21:04.440
So like we use HubSpot for our CRM.

00:21:05.250 --> 00:21:08.869
And then we write all the custom sequences and workflows we want to track.

00:21:09.829 --> 00:21:12.170
Um, we're using, uh, Kantana.

00:21:12.884 --> 00:21:14.275
It used to be called Maven link.

00:21:14.404 --> 00:21:14.684
Okay.

00:21:14.724 --> 00:21:16.845
They were bought out and that's a project management software.

00:21:16.845 --> 00:21:17.154
Okay.

00:21:17.684 --> 00:21:21.234
And so our engineers, when we hand something to them, they can.

00:21:21.255 --> 00:21:25.355
That's where they're uploading all those files that all the specs that need to be in there.

00:21:25.375 --> 00:21:28.404
Cause I'm sure it's a big data handling game too, right?

00:21:28.605 --> 00:21:28.835
Yeah.

00:21:28.835 --> 00:21:30.394
We, where do you find truth?

00:21:30.605 --> 00:21:31.765
According to this project.

00:21:31.984 --> 00:21:32.325
Yeah.

00:21:32.325 --> 00:21:41.914
So, so that runs all of our hours, budgets, contracts, stuff, tasks, deliverables, and then Dropbox is where they house all of our files, AutoCAD.

00:21:41.924 --> 00:21:42.744
They do all their design.

00:21:42.795 --> 00:21:42.974
Yeah.

00:21:42.974 --> 00:21:43.265
Yeah.

00:21:43.765 --> 00:21:49.115
Um, so it's, and, and Meredith actually is running for us in 2025.

00:21:49.194 --> 00:21:54.755
She's looking at, we're coming to a tipping point for our size and complexity.

00:21:55.275 --> 00:22:00.944
So we need to go through an analysis of how many pieces of software are we using?

00:22:00.944 --> 00:22:06.839
Um, How many informational hands are we changing from from in our customer journey from the day?

00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:10.289
Someone hears about Hines, you know to hopefully year 30 of working with Hines.

00:22:10.309 --> 00:22:14.869
Yeah Yeah How many different pieces of software are we using to support them?

00:22:15.009 --> 00:22:19.950
Yeah, because every change in software is a handoff that you've got to make sure you don't drop something.

00:22:20.059 --> 00:22:20.490
Yeah.

00:22:20.490 --> 00:22:32.845
Yeah And so so Meredith is running that initiative Although there's a lot of things like makes and stuff like you can use to pass off Information from one software to the next, but yes, you're, you're a hundred percent right.

00:22:32.865 --> 00:22:33.775
That's interesting.

00:22:34.015 --> 00:22:48.375
Do you have, like, in addition to yourself and the, the other principals, is there, do you got, like, a super tech operations software person that's putting all this together for you guys, or you're just a bunch of engineers hacking it together, figuring it out?

00:22:48.505 --> 00:22:48.944
That's you?

00:22:49.085 --> 00:22:54.829
Yeah, so we've got, um, we have a very gifted, uh, Station builder.

00:22:55.009 --> 00:22:56.049
Okay in Fort Collins.

00:22:56.460 --> 00:23:09.589
So he builds out our laptops and computers for us does that very very well But we we analyze software and train in that and figure that out That's your you're kind of a prime point person there.

00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:15.940
You know a couple people I'm in a place where I've handed off most of Yeah.

00:23:15.970 --> 00:23:25.170
And I can do workflow and, and help do some of the thought work around, are you having to enter that piece of information more than once?

00:23:25.230 --> 00:23:25.609
Yeah.

00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.779
If so, is this the right process or the right piece of software?

00:23:29.789 --> 00:23:38.545
Well, and that's such an interesting thing, like in going from where you started as a six or seven person firm, you It didn't make any sense to spend that effort.

00:23:39.095 --> 00:23:45.914
No, probably, you know, but when you get to be a 30 person firm, it's like, okay, well, this is worth it now.

00:23:46.394 --> 00:23:49.825
And if we go to be a hundred person firm, it's totally going to be worth it.

00:23:49.884 --> 00:23:50.184
Yeah.

00:23:50.285 --> 00:23:52.585
You know, all that margin is all right there.

00:23:52.704 --> 00:23:52.984
Yeah.

00:23:53.315 --> 00:23:55.035
Uh, especially in a services business, right?

00:23:55.035 --> 00:23:56.934
Where, you know, I don't know, you're, you're.

00:23:57.325 --> 00:24:02.575
You're probably average employee probably makes a hundred bucks or 80 bucks an hour or something 70.

00:24:02.575 --> 00:24:05.414
I don't know maybe 50 So there's different levels.

00:24:05.605 --> 00:24:20.755
Yeah, there is so we could have a Designer a young designer come in that just yeah, they may have an associate's degree They might have a CAD drafting degree something like that Yeah, and typically market is somewhere between 55 and 65 right that person, right?

00:24:22.609 --> 00:24:27.000
And we would go all the way up into, into the high six figures.

00:24:27.500 --> 00:24:30.319
Well, probably the low six figures, 900, 000.

00:24:30.329 --> 00:24:33.089
So I was, I was pretty close that 52, a hundred bucks an hour.

00:24:33.089 --> 00:24:33.539
Oh, you mean.

00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:35.809
Like some people make a couple of hundred bucks an hour.

00:24:36.069 --> 00:24:36.299
Yeah.

00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:43.000
We would have, we would have some folks that are, 200 bucks an hour is 400 a year.

00:24:43.069 --> 00:24:43.420
Okay.

00:24:43.539 --> 00:24:49.400
So our principles, um, between base salary and commission, they can do quite well.

00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:49.700
Yeah.

00:24:49.700 --> 00:24:49.990
Yeah.

00:24:50.150 --> 00:24:55.990
It's a, it's a, that's a role that if you get to that level at Heinz that you can retire on that role.

00:24:56.059 --> 00:24:56.329
Yeah.

00:24:56.329 --> 00:24:56.680
Yeah.

00:24:56.759 --> 00:24:59.220
Which has been part of our goal, right?

00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:00.640
It's an important industry.

00:25:00.710 --> 00:25:03.809
No one pays attention to typically a sweatshop environment.

00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:07.019
typically underpaid, typically undervalued.

00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:13.119
That doesn't work for managing arguably the second most valuable resource in the world.

00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:13.519
Yeah.

00:25:13.579 --> 00:25:13.920
Yeah.

00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:29.390
Well, and probably for every half million dollars that people spend on Heinz, they save a half million dollars a year or something, or some, maybe it's only a third of that or whatever, but it's, it's some big number.

00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:36.154
If you spend 250 an acre on Heinz, you'll save 30, in construction costs.

00:25:38.744 --> 00:25:39.125
Yeah.

00:25:39.464 --> 00:25:40.255
It's pretty good.

00:25:40.325 --> 00:25:40.744
Yeah.

00:25:40.815 --> 00:25:49.555
I mean, so the value proposition is strong and so being able to extract a reasonable, I, I, I've said in the past, like it's easy to add value to the world.

00:25:49.555 --> 00:25:49.875
Yeah.

00:25:50.075 --> 00:25:54.704
It's sometimes hard to extract some value for yourself as a business, you know, when it takes.

00:25:55.234 --> 00:26:02.315
You know, sometimes 30 years of reputation building of skill building, of building 7,000 systems or whatever.

00:26:02.434 --> 00:26:02.974
Oh, yeah.

00:26:03.369 --> 00:26:03.660
Yeah.

00:26:03.664 --> 00:26:04.744
It's, it's enormous.

00:26:04.744 --> 00:26:10.644
And right now, I mean, we're managing, I think we probably have 1500 projects under contract.

00:26:10.734 --> 00:26:11.154
Wow.

00:26:11.154 --> 00:26:14.815
And in progress, And there are multiple deliverables for each.

00:26:14.845 --> 00:26:15.295
Interesting.

00:26:15.295 --> 00:26:20.335
So we have to have a schedule and a deliverable for 4,500.

00:26:20.924 --> 00:26:23.845
deliverables that will hit in the next 24 months.

00:26:28.369 --> 00:26:30.720
You could do my job more easily than I could do your job.

00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.170
I'm just saying, I'm just speculating here.

00:26:33.170 --> 00:26:34.089
I got a lot of people.

00:26:34.099 --> 00:26:35.160
You got a good team.

00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:38.829
Yeah, I could just kind of hang out at the corner and just wait until real problems arise.

00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:41.759
Well, my, my Gather the facts and make a decision.

00:26:41.930 --> 00:26:49.589
I figured that my, my skill set is in, um, I build process because I hate doing something more than once.

00:26:51.434 --> 00:26:52.815
I really, really don't like it.

00:26:52.954 --> 00:27:03.414
And, and then I also have a, um, uh, I don't really like asking people, other people to do stuff that I think is, um, not great work.

00:27:03.464 --> 00:27:03.785
Yeah.

00:27:03.894 --> 00:27:04.174
Yeah.

00:27:04.204 --> 00:27:08.890
So I, I have a hard time hiring people to do something that I don't think, um, is worth me doing.

00:27:08.950 --> 00:27:09.500
Yeah, yeah.

00:27:09.579 --> 00:27:10.980
And I've done all sorts of stuff.

00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:15.990
I've worked in restaurants and bike shops, and I was a hide carrier for brick mason.

00:27:16.130 --> 00:27:17.240
I worked on farms.

00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:20.420
I work, I mean, yeah, it's not because stuff is below you.

00:27:20.420 --> 00:27:29.625
There's just certain work that shouldn't be done because it doesn't make sense in light of the the Yeah, it's useless, stupid work that no, no human should do.

00:27:29.654 --> 00:27:30.654
I like to call it make work.

00:27:30.734 --> 00:27:31.535
Oh Lord.

00:27:32.144 --> 00:27:32.345
Yeah.

00:27:32.345 --> 00:27:36.484
It's brutal, you know, breaking rocks with a, with a freaking ax or something like that.

00:27:37.355 --> 00:27:41.335
Um, well that's a good habit to have as an executive.

00:27:41.684 --> 00:27:45.755
Um, what would you say, like your, how many reports do you have?

00:27:45.755 --> 00:27:47.394
How many people report to you directly?

00:27:47.934 --> 00:27:58.244
Um, uh, head of finance and administration, head of engineering, And then I'm currently acting as VP of sales in the company.

00:27:58.625 --> 00:28:07.474
So I interact with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5 sales and sales ops, most of which are in that principal role.

00:28:07.484 --> 00:28:07.805
Yeah.

00:28:07.835 --> 00:28:11.744
So there's seven folks that I'm, but if you get it figured out, you'd like to have a sales.

00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:15.359
Manager kind of role and then you can go back to writing your motorcycle more.

00:28:15.690 --> 00:28:32.900
Yeah, we yeah, that'd be nice What would those direct reports say is your special sauce aside from what you've already observed as far as like Kind of that process building so I don't have to spend time doing dumb stuff I'm a pretty aggressive driver Okay.

00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:39.430
Um, that helps in the business perspective from a growth standpoint and just accountability.

00:28:39.430 --> 00:28:42.609
So, so you're a, a demanding captain.

00:28:42.980 --> 00:28:49.240
Yeah, there's an unwillingness to accept, um, to accept, uh, status quo.

00:28:49.460 --> 00:28:49.789
Okay.

00:28:49.950 --> 00:28:50.190
Yeah.

00:28:50.200 --> 00:28:57.339
Um, I'm pretty good at, um, bending.

00:28:58.365 --> 00:29:00.434
current reality to my will.

00:29:01.325 --> 00:29:01.795
I don't know.

00:29:01.835 --> 00:29:03.394
That's a silly, stupid thing to say.

00:29:03.394 --> 00:29:17.134
Cause there's a lot of, uh, things that I'm being, uh, conformed and changed into, you know, just being, uh, being humbled and well, but variety of different, I mean, we, uh, are, are, are Value is a local think tank.

00:29:17.134 --> 00:29:35.025
We, we, I changed them this year, this time, about this time last year, cause they had gotten kind of fluffy and long and stuff, but I went to, uh, be smart, be kind, be true, uh, be local, be the change, be you, and the, be the change is kind of what you're talking about there.

00:29:35.025 --> 00:29:42.424
You know, you can't be satisfied, um, as a business leader with the status quo, because if you get.

00:29:43.259 --> 00:29:49.859
Too much satisfied than three years from now, then all of a sudden you're the third place guy in the marketplace or whatever.

00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:52.609
You know, and you can't get those same kind of margins.

00:29:52.619 --> 00:29:53.750
You can't hire the good people.

00:29:53.779 --> 00:29:54.259
Yeah, yeah.

00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:58.289
And that kind of, um, motivation of not.

00:30:00.194 --> 00:30:09.355
Yeah, there's, there's a, um, there's some intrinsic things about me, um, that just have to be built into the DNA of our company.

00:30:09.404 --> 00:30:09.714
Yeah.

00:30:10.244 --> 00:30:19.095
And so as I got more comfortable with that, um, what emerged is Heinz has got to be a pretty entrepreneurial place.

00:30:19.970 --> 00:30:29.450
Everyone in the organization's got to have a little bit of an entrepreneurial pull, um, and um, come to work on the balls of their feet.

00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:29.930
Yeah.

00:30:30.109 --> 00:30:30.549
I dig it.

00:30:30.859 --> 00:30:31.140
I dig it.

00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:37.710
I mean, that's how you get the best people because, because the really best people don't want to be around complacency.

00:30:38.019 --> 00:30:38.240
Yeah.

00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:40.029
And it's, it's the best people for us.

00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:40.319
Yeah.

00:30:40.349 --> 00:30:40.509
Yeah.

00:30:40.509 --> 00:30:47.335
You know, it's a, um, Um, you know, it's not necessarily the best in the world, right?

00:30:47.365 --> 00:30:47.684
Yeah, yeah.

00:30:47.684 --> 00:30:52.085
We'd love to be the best in the world at what we do, but we also do it in a particular way.

00:30:52.684 --> 00:31:02.380
And, um, uh, I've gotten increasingly comfortable with the idea that I'm going to have a particular effect on, you know, Yeah, yeah.

00:31:03.069 --> 00:31:04.859
And this industry in general seems like.

00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:07.059
What's your, what's your target?

00:31:07.089 --> 00:31:12.059
Are you, like, do you want to be a hundred person firm three or five years from now?

00:31:12.059 --> 00:31:18.500
Or do you kind of like the boutique, uh, engineering consultancy place that you're at now?

00:31:18.910 --> 00:31:19.400
Yeah.

00:31:19.509 --> 00:31:31.539
Our, our current, uh, our current mission is to be, um, probably a 60 to 65 person firm in 2027 by the end of 2027.

00:31:31.539 --> 00:31:49.069
And there's some things happening in the world of, of water, environmental engineering, um, plant soil, water chemistry, that we need to have some, uh, size and some intellectual, got to be able to get there to be able to impact those things.

00:31:50.380 --> 00:31:52.059
So do you want to talk about those things?

00:31:52.069 --> 00:31:53.170
Is that, yeah, sure.

00:31:53.230 --> 00:31:54.630
It seems like now's the right time.

00:31:54.630 --> 00:31:55.210
Otherwise we might.

00:31:55.575 --> 00:32:20.049
Not come back to them, but like, I'm really, I'm a farmer kid, you know, and, and so very much, you know, conventional farming methods, you know, wheat farmers now, corn, soybeans in North Dakota, but also I'm intrigued about things like Fertilization, like watering, like, uh, biochars and different, uh, things of, uh, plant life creation, especially.

00:32:20.059 --> 00:32:21.799
Like, for me, that's the main reason I have water.

00:32:22.180 --> 00:32:24.480
Like, we can drink it, but mostly we just need food.

00:32:25.549 --> 00:32:28.309
Well, like, nobody wants to live on the surface of Mars.

00:32:29.509 --> 00:32:30.799
And it's not good for people.

00:32:31.150 --> 00:32:32.210
And it's not good for animals.

00:32:32.755 --> 00:32:47.305
And this idea that we can, um, you know, put in rock and astroturf everywhere and not have some pretty detrimental environmental, mental, emotional consequences.

00:32:47.305 --> 00:32:49.815
Yeah, paved paradise, but no parking lot, right?

00:32:49.884 --> 00:32:50.214
Crazy.

00:32:51.105 --> 00:32:59.025
Um, but there are some pretty incredible ways to take much better care of, uh, soil, water, plants.

00:32:59.569 --> 00:33:01.380
And that'll take better care of people.

00:33:02.630 --> 00:33:16.890
And so kind of the typical, this is not true everywhere, but if we were going to paint the industry with kind of a broad brush, um, we go in, we scrape healthy topsoil, we sell it, then we set up houses.

00:33:17.390 --> 00:33:20.029
we plant landscape on clay.

00:33:21.019 --> 00:33:26.099
Then we throw down a bunch of water and chemicals to try to keep it alive.

00:33:26.170 --> 00:33:32.809
And then they're surprised when it dies, unless we pour a lot of chemical and water on top of it.

00:33:32.809 --> 00:33:43.789
And then we maintain and manage those urban gardens, um, with poorly resourced, often uneducated work, uh, workforce.

00:33:43.900 --> 00:33:44.019
Right.

00:33:44.019 --> 00:33:44.289
Yeah.

00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:44.720
Yeah.

00:33:44.740 --> 00:33:50.664
So, um, there's a, uh, And there's change happening and there are good companies working against this.

00:33:50.664 --> 00:33:54.615
And so this is not to paint all of this with a bad brush.

00:33:54.615 --> 00:33:54.775
Right.

00:33:54.775 --> 00:33:54.984
Yeah.

00:33:54.984 --> 00:33:55.234
Yeah.

00:33:55.424 --> 00:34:03.144
Uh, and there's a lot of great technical expertise out there working on this and we're just wanting to, you know, to, to find some solutions in there also.

00:34:03.204 --> 00:34:03.414
Yeah.

00:34:03.414 --> 00:34:03.684
Yeah.

00:34:04.005 --> 00:34:09.244
Um, uh, a great guest actually for you would be Clinton Sander over at A1 organics.

00:34:09.244 --> 00:34:09.655
Oh yeah.

00:34:09.775 --> 00:34:11.454
Awesome soils guy.

00:34:12.034 --> 00:34:13.344
fellow motorcyclist.

00:34:13.385 --> 00:34:17.014
And, uh, I mean, he's, he is just the great and powerful Clinton Sanders.

00:34:17.315 --> 00:34:17.664
It's an animal.

00:34:17.764 --> 00:34:18.215
All right.

00:34:18.224 --> 00:34:18.445
He does.

00:34:19.164 --> 00:34:27.994
Um, and so you really have a, you know, kind of below blue collar workforce taking care of our environment.

00:34:27.994 --> 00:34:32.974
And, um, you know, then we're a little bit surprised when we're killing our topsoil.

00:34:34.664 --> 00:34:39.094
we have a lot of chemicals and nasty crap in the water that are doing some pretty detrimental things.

00:34:39.625 --> 00:34:42.894
And our solution is to tear out all of the plant material.

00:34:43.394 --> 00:35:02.454
So it's a little bit of an odd suicide project in my mind that I think, I think that if we develop a highly educated workforce that are essentially being urban gardeners for us, building healthy living soil, allows you to reduce plant material.

00:35:02.454 --> 00:35:02.514
Thank you.

00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:11.710
or sorry, allows you to reduce dependence on water, reduce or eliminate harmful chemicals that we're putting in the soil and water table.

00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:15.139
Um, you increase biological activity in the soil.

00:35:15.139 --> 00:35:15.670
Sure.

00:35:15.809 --> 00:35:22.119
Living soils attract more animals, plants, pollinators, birds, bees, wildlife, all of those things increase.

00:35:22.309 --> 00:35:22.559
Yeah.

00:35:22.900 --> 00:35:24.019
Human health is better.

00:35:25.164 --> 00:35:33.085
We've done some cool studies in Dallas with Texas Trees Foundation around respiratory illnesses in public schools, relating that to tree canopy.

00:35:33.264 --> 00:35:33.815
Interesting.

00:35:33.875 --> 00:35:35.585
This can relate to food deserts.

00:35:36.204 --> 00:35:40.425
Um, you know, people can grow up never experiencing natural landscapes.

00:35:41.184 --> 00:35:44.344
Like some people grow up only eating food from gas stations.

00:35:44.835 --> 00:35:45.335
Not great.

00:35:45.344 --> 00:35:46.445
It doesn't make healthy humans.

00:35:47.635 --> 00:35:59.355
So there's some things there that I would like to, as we get a handle on our planning and engineering side, Start thinking about how we, I mean, we touch billions of square feet of soil every year.

00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:03.909
How do we make that a little healthier with what we do right now?

00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:04.460
Right.

00:36:04.460 --> 00:36:15.739
Well, and what you're talking about is like when you scrape that topsoil off, you know, the only way to keep grass green after that virtually is to spray regular chemical fertilizers on there.

00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:18.675
And then some percentage of that washes off.

00:36:19.244 --> 00:36:27.965
Uh, in the process of over watering by a hundred percent and all that stuff kind of goes down and has to be either taken out of the water or makes the water less healthy.

00:36:28.094 --> 00:36:28.525
Oh yeah.

00:36:28.565 --> 00:36:31.335
You know, downstream for whoever is, is downstream.

00:36:31.565 --> 00:36:37.565
I was just, so, uh, you know, I offered you that, uh, that, uh, joint of the homegrown.

00:36:37.574 --> 00:36:38.155
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:38.224 --> 00:36:43.784
And the reason I have the garden beds where I have them right now is because I had to, I moved my chicken coop last year.

00:36:43.844 --> 00:36:44.065
Yeah.

00:36:44.505 --> 00:36:44.974
And.

00:36:45.684 --> 00:37:05.594
Underneath that chicken coop was like two generations of mulch nice I've been throwing my leaves in there for eight years And I always use the chicken poop to fertilize my gardens and stuff But I built this particular set of garden beds because I had all this mulch Amazing topsoil, and I wasn't just going to lose it.

00:37:05.594 --> 00:37:07.625
I had to move it to somewhere good.

00:37:07.625 --> 00:37:40.889
And so that's where my my backyard Homegrown plant grew was in that kind of multi generational Super rich soil and even today I still keep chickens and like all the leaves that fall They just get mulched and torn up and all the garden the the kitchen scraps just go out Into there and yeah And that soil, like 30 years from now, when somebody buys my house from my widow, you know, they're going to be like, Ooh, this like, cause there'd be like three feet of soil underneath that chicken coop yard.

00:37:40.889 --> 00:37:42.579
That's just going to be like beautiful.

00:37:42.590 --> 00:37:44.110
It'd be like gold, black gold, black gold.

00:37:44.110 --> 00:37:44.250
Yeah.

00:37:44.250 --> 00:37:44.949
Old town gold.

00:37:44.949 --> 00:37:45.449
We call it.

00:37:45.590 --> 00:37:45.949
That's cool.

00:37:45.980 --> 00:37:47.099
Uh, around there.

00:37:47.130 --> 00:37:54.659
And like, just seeing like where I grew up in North Dakota, we don't get much more rain than Eastern Colorado.

00:37:55.195 --> 00:37:55.585
Yeah.

00:37:55.704 --> 00:38:05.094
Um, but the soil over generations just had so much more organic material and matter in it's a lo, a clay loam instead of a sandy clay.

00:38:05.155 --> 00:38:05.425
Yeah.

00:38:05.784 --> 00:38:13.655
And they just grow way more voluptuous crops because there's way more organic materials like the Red River Valley soils.

00:38:13.715 --> 00:38:14.014
Yeah.

00:38:14.019 --> 00:38:16.534
You know that soil can get one inch of rain a month.

00:38:17.090 --> 00:38:18.610
And still produce a big corn crop.

00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:19.300
That's awesome.

00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:23.699
Cause it just locks that water in there except for everything but the plant.

00:38:23.780 --> 00:38:24.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:25.050
You know?

00:38:25.099 --> 00:38:27.579
And so, yeah, it's an interesting, it's cool.

00:38:27.630 --> 00:38:30.389
Dynamic and soil has been stripped of so much of its vibrancy.

00:38:30.389 --> 00:38:34.619
If we can start building that back, we can use less chemicals, less herbicides, less everything.

00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:35.099
Yeah.

00:38:35.099 --> 00:38:35.769
It's wild.

00:38:35.809 --> 00:38:53.119
Uh, and, and, and again, like a guy like Clinton would, would be able to speak to this in a far deeper manner, but, You spray these chemicals onto the soil, you kill all of the natural biology, the natural bacteria, the things that help keep soil healthy and allow plant roots.

00:38:56.130 --> 00:39:01.010
to access water easily and access nutrients.

00:39:01.929 --> 00:39:04.349
The fertilizer kills the soil's ability to do it.

00:39:04.590 --> 00:39:04.909
Yeah.

00:39:04.989 --> 00:39:10.539
And then does a, um, a pretty amazing job for a while growing crops.

00:39:10.570 --> 00:39:12.900
Well, it's like we're living on, it's like living on fat.

00:39:12.980 --> 00:39:13.349
Yeah.

00:39:13.570 --> 00:39:13.690
Yeah.

00:39:13.690 --> 00:39:23.090
You know, it's kind of like, uh, this kind of quick squirt of energy, but you don't actually, the plant doesn't even try to go get to the, some of the actual bound nutrients because it's got this.

00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:25.000
Nitrogen is right there.

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:26.059
Easy for looking up.

00:39:26.059 --> 00:39:26.900
Yeah, it's like steroids.

00:39:26.900 --> 00:39:28.230
Yeah, a little bit like that.

00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:36.190
And uh I think what I want to do now is you mentioned that you purchased the business eight years ago It was your father's company before that.

00:39:36.500 --> 00:39:41.385
Did you work in the company before then or did you come in and You Get out of here dad.

00:39:41.385 --> 00:39:47.324
I'm buying your company or like talk to me about maybe about that Transition much smaller business at the time you mentioned.

00:39:47.675 --> 00:39:52.164
Yeah, we um My dad started Heinz when I was in high school.

00:39:52.284 --> 00:40:04.125
Okay, and I worked in and out of the business a little bit before I went to college and college was a Lengthy affair.

00:40:04.505 --> 00:40:07.304
Okay with a variety of starts and stops for me.

00:40:07.324 --> 00:40:17.519
Okay Um Like you weren't going to go into engineering kind of stuff you've done some other stuff and then well I started Um, I was thinking that direction in high school.

00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:29.480
And so I did all my college maths in high school And then enrolled in CSU starting down that track and just, yeah, it just didn't, it just didn't stick at the time.

00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:43.710
Um, so I had a couple of different college experiences in the States and then dropped out and, uh, snowboarded and worked as a bouncer for about a year and a half, two years up in like Vail or something like that.

00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:48.769
I was, uh, I was here in town, had a pass and then I would just go up and ski three or four days a week.

00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:49.610
I like it.

00:40:49.900 --> 00:40:50.800
And where were you bouncing?

00:40:51.269 --> 00:40:55.849
Um, so at that time in Fort Collins, you had Old Chicago.

00:40:56.099 --> 00:40:56.440
Oh yeah.

00:40:57.070 --> 00:41:00.409
You had, um, Crown Pub.

00:41:01.010 --> 00:41:01.360
Sure.

00:41:01.590 --> 00:41:03.469
Yeah, what's the tiny little bar?

00:41:03.639 --> 00:41:06.250
Oh the Tom pump.

00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:11.380
Yep town pump, you know, and then I think I've always been a trailhead guy myself mostly.

00:41:11.389 --> 00:41:21.750
Yeah, they had trailhead and then the really rowdy place I worked some was over by the Transport Depot.

00:41:21.849 --> 00:41:23.869
It's a they've turned it into a Washington.

00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:25.349
Yeah, Washington's.

00:41:25.349 --> 00:41:26.070
Yeah.

00:41:26.070 --> 00:41:26.360
Yeah.

00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:29.579
Yeah, so I worked around Gotcha gotcha.

00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:31.059
Duval just make pretty good money.

00:41:31.269 --> 00:41:32.059
You know, I was great.

00:41:32.130 --> 00:41:33.010
Yeah Yeah.

00:41:33.190 --> 00:41:37.480
You share, you, you generally shared the take from, uh, tips from the bar, right?

00:41:38.139 --> 00:41:39.369
And, um, it was fun.

00:41:39.369 --> 00:41:42.159
Unless you let somebody in and beat somebody up, then that's trouble.

00:41:42.469 --> 00:41:43.000
Yeah.

00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:44.500
Anyway, I digress.

00:41:44.500 --> 00:41:45.300
We're friends with everybody.

00:41:45.769 --> 00:41:46.199
Right.

00:41:46.309 --> 00:41:47.231
That's the best way to balance.

00:41:47.231 --> 00:41:47.873
Yeah, everybody wants to be your friend.

00:41:47.873 --> 00:41:48.550
To be friends with everybody.

00:41:48.550 --> 00:41:49.260
Yeah, for sure.

00:41:49.429 --> 00:41:50.530
But it was wild.

00:41:50.860 --> 00:41:51.030
Yeah.

00:41:51.030 --> 00:41:55.989
I mean, it was, it was, um, you know, saw all sorts of things.

00:41:55.989 --> 00:42:09.614
Well, I, I actually, as a matter of fact, just Saturday night, I, I, uh, Went out and met some friends and then I met my wife and one of her girlfriends and we went to the trailhead for a little while and on the way out of there at like 11 o'clock, 1130.

00:42:10.144 --> 00:42:12.085
The, the bouncer had been punched.

00:42:12.394 --> 00:42:13.355
Oh yeah.

00:42:13.355 --> 00:42:14.414
By this dude.

00:42:15.085 --> 00:42:18.905
Uh, this dude that had been flirting with my wife's girlfriend earlier.

00:42:18.905 --> 00:42:20.085
I was like, dude, did you give him your number?

00:42:20.344 --> 00:42:32.804
Um, anyway, and the police were like there and interviewing this guy and the bouncer was back on duty with like a, a cut around his nose, you know, he was wiping a little eye thing, but he was, he was a trooper.

00:42:33.304 --> 00:42:37.114
Um, but, uh, anyway, so I'm sure it was a pretty interesting job.

00:42:37.344 --> 00:42:38.105
So you.

00:42:38.735 --> 00:42:42.295
Eventually go back to school, get out of your party days, and then get serious, or?

00:42:42.315 --> 00:42:45.565
Yeah, I, um, I went and lived in Europe for about a year and a half.

00:42:45.655 --> 00:42:45.945
Okay.

00:42:45.945 --> 00:42:48.824
And, uh, lived and worked there, odd, odd jobs.

00:42:49.364 --> 00:42:52.695
Um, and then, uh, while Bouncing and stuff.

00:42:52.985 --> 00:42:54.784
Well, uh, I actually worked in an art school.

00:42:56.375 --> 00:43:01.755
I did live in Italy, and um, I mean, I guess I, I, I, um, yeah.

00:43:01.815 --> 00:43:04.565
So I worked in a couple of different art schools in Florence for about a year and a half.

00:43:04.574 --> 00:43:07.735
So were you a budding artist in this season of your life?

00:43:07.735 --> 00:43:09.114
Or are you just like Not at all.

00:43:09.315 --> 00:43:14.614
You're like No, I modeled for You're like applying for this art school or, uh, to work there, and you're like, I've been a bouncer at this.

00:43:14.994 --> 00:43:15.375
Yeah.

00:43:15.835 --> 00:43:16.375
Whatever.

00:43:16.534 --> 00:43:25.565
In one of the colleges that I went to, I'm, I worked in the art department and one of the visiting professors said, Hey, if you ever want to come and live in Europe, let me know.

00:43:25.635 --> 00:43:26.135
Oh wow.

00:43:26.215 --> 00:43:40.735
And so I went over and then I got 50 bucks a week and free room and uh, I worked about eight hours a week, learned Italian, traveled a bunch, like a bum, I really traveled like a bum.

00:43:40.974 --> 00:43:41.474
That's cool.

00:43:41.534 --> 00:43:43.855
And, um, while I was there.

00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:49.190
Um, what I hadn't liked about college very much was all of the structured class time.

00:43:49.789 --> 00:43:53.070
And, uh, even then it felt like there was a bunch of nonsense.

00:43:53.550 --> 00:43:53.809
Yeah.

00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:55.980
Um, I knew how to read, I knew how to write.

00:43:56.010 --> 00:43:59.070
I didn't want to spend electoral credits taking PE classes.

00:43:59.090 --> 00:44:01.110
I wanted to get busy getting a degree and be done.

00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:01.460
Yeah.

00:44:01.710 --> 00:44:04.139
And some friends in Italy said, Hey, you should look at Oxford.

00:44:04.269 --> 00:44:05.400
Oh, okay.

00:44:06.539 --> 00:44:06.909
Keep going.

00:44:07.179 --> 00:44:13.130
So I, um, looked at Oxford and, uh, Oxford runs on a tutorial system.

00:44:13.130 --> 00:44:13.179
Yeah.

00:44:14.985 --> 00:44:21.175
And so you get a degree in three years, and you don't have to go to any classes.

00:44:23.445 --> 00:44:28.215
Every week, you're set a term paper, effectively a term paper for every class.

00:44:28.215 --> 00:44:28.514
What?

00:44:28.855 --> 00:44:39.465
So every class you take, I would just go to my mail, my little mailbox on, on a Monday morning, and I'd have, uh, a little note from each of my tutors, and they would just have a question.

00:44:40.364 --> 00:44:44.454
So if I was studying Alexander the Great, they would just have a question.

00:44:45.864 --> 00:44:47.445
And I'd go build a reading list.

00:44:47.485 --> 00:44:49.885
I could pick lectures around the university to go see.

00:44:49.885 --> 00:44:55.114
And a week later they wanted a 8 10 page paper arguing about that question.

00:44:55.155 --> 00:44:55.585
Wow.

00:44:56.125 --> 00:44:59.335
And, uh, the first year you're just getting the shit beat out of you.

00:44:59.414 --> 00:45:00.054
I'm sure.

00:45:00.724 --> 00:45:05.054
Um, and then by year 3 Because it's such a different way of learning than we've ever been introduced to.

00:45:05.054 --> 00:45:05.414
Oh, it's brutal.

00:45:05.764 --> 00:45:06.494
It's absolutely brutal.

00:45:06.494 --> 00:45:06.755
Yeah.

00:45:07.454 --> 00:45:20.565
Um, and by the end of the year, end of year three, the hope is, is you're able to actually argue, debate, discuss, write well, communicate well, um, and all of your grades that you do not have to go to class.

00:45:20.804 --> 00:45:22.925
There are no grades for three years.

00:45:23.414 --> 00:45:29.965
At the end of three years, they set seven cumulative exams and you have one thesis paper.

00:45:30.135 --> 00:45:30.474
Wow.

00:45:31.034 --> 00:45:37.835
And you sit down in a room and you've got three hours to answer three questions on your subject.

00:45:38.474 --> 00:45:41.844
And you perhaps have not, I mean, it's from year one, right?

00:45:42.155 --> 00:45:45.414
And, uh, that was sufficiently engaging.

00:45:46.585 --> 00:46:01.625
And so I came back to the States from Italy, worked in the business to save money, to go do that, applied, worked in your dad's business, my dad's business, got in, which, which, which was, uh, I don't know how that happened.

00:46:02.385 --> 00:46:10.315
Um, and, uh, while I was over there, Uh, I actually, my wife and I met two months before I moved to England.

00:46:11.775 --> 00:46:14.204
We got engaged three days before I left.

00:46:15.005 --> 00:46:17.014
And, um, we were engaged.

00:46:17.304 --> 00:46:33.755
While I was living over there the first year that we got married and moved over there together okay, so the two of us started a little office for Heinz in England Oh and Marketed that way you can write our trips back and forth and started off the trip start working on the global for school Presence or whatever, right?

00:46:33.775 --> 00:46:37.125
Like nobody can carry that flag better than the son of the founder kind of thing.

00:46:37.235 --> 00:46:38.485
That's right That's right.

00:46:38.885 --> 00:46:44.195
So in a way, I mean I was interested in it, but it started a bit as a how are we gonna pay for school?

00:46:45.425 --> 00:46:57.295
right, we I mean, I paid for my own braces in college, you know, we weren't flush with money, so I had to pay for all my schooling and, uh, this was a great way to do it.

00:46:57.394 --> 00:46:57.934
Yeah, yeah.

00:46:58.014 --> 00:47:05.079
What an interesting route and I was beating myself up a few weeks ago because I haven't ridden in a while.

00:47:05.269 --> 00:47:08.230
Read hardly any books in the last couple years.

00:47:08.230 --> 00:47:08.360
Yeah.

00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:08.519
Yeah.

00:47:08.530 --> 00:47:28.539
Um, I used to listen to audio audible books a lot more and Occasionally read shorties and stuff, but but these podcasts that I have with really interesting people every week Yeah, yeah, you know just kind of feeds me a lot I got my thinker going for a couple of hours every week with somebody that's usually smarter than me Present company.

00:47:28.539 --> 00:47:31.940
I'm sorry Drag it down here.

00:47:31.949 --> 00:47:35.135
You study like Ancient history or some weird thing?

00:47:35.355 --> 00:47:37.094
You mentioned Alexander the Great.

00:47:37.364 --> 00:47:39.085
Yeah, ancient history was my favorite.

00:47:39.085 --> 00:47:42.545
That must have gotten you ready for being the high biller at the, uh, Heinz.

00:47:42.889 --> 00:47:43.909
Irrigation company.

00:47:43.989 --> 00:47:50.460
Well, if you think about it in, in ancient history, you get to study people that controlled some of the largest empires in the world there.

00:47:50.769 --> 00:48:02.519
And, um, so if you pair that kind of expertise with the rather limited IQ and competence of a guy like me, maybe you can build a small to midsize company in the United States.

00:48:02.869 --> 00:48:03.059
Yeah.

00:48:03.059 --> 00:48:03.389
Yeah.

00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:03.909
I like it.

00:48:03.949 --> 00:48:04.159
Yeah.

00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:20.344
If you study the, the masters, shoot low, young man, That's an interesting, uh, like, were you passionate about history and stuff before this season?

00:48:20.344 --> 00:48:21.414
Or like?

00:48:21.505 --> 00:48:22.494
Yeah, very much.

00:48:22.505 --> 00:48:42.135
I mean, I, I probably come from the, um, I come from a educational perspective that looks something like, um, spend time developing how you look at and see the world, learn to think about it critically.

00:48:42.875 --> 00:48:45.414
Uh, learn to speak and write about it.

00:48:45.605 --> 00:48:45.994
Mm hmm.

00:48:46.235 --> 00:48:49.394
Um, that's more important than learning.

00:48:50.550 --> 00:48:51.039
skills.

00:48:51.309 --> 00:48:51.590
Yeah.

00:48:52.210 --> 00:48:54.780
Um, learn technical skills as necessary.

00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:56.599
Learn technical skills as necessary.

00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:04.789
Um, and, and if you look at our time now, you know, you can go into a four year degree in computer science and by the time you're done, you're three and a half years behind.

00:49:05.219 --> 00:49:05.730
Totally.

00:49:05.849 --> 00:49:06.210
Right.

00:49:06.269 --> 00:49:06.460
Yeah.

00:49:06.460 --> 00:49:06.809
Yeah.

00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:11.230
Um, and so maybe do an apprenticeship program for six months.

00:49:11.230 --> 00:49:11.539
Right.

00:49:11.619 --> 00:49:11.949
Yeah.

00:49:12.510 --> 00:49:16.429
But that doesn't teach you how to be a citizen or a father.

00:49:16.969 --> 00:49:25.280
Um, or to, um, you know, deal with a whole variety of a philosopher first, uh, by nature.

00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:26.590
I think that's probably the case.

00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:27.059
Yeah.

00:49:27.699 --> 00:49:28.820
And I liked history.

00:49:29.019 --> 00:49:30.650
I did take some philosophy classes.

00:49:30.679 --> 00:49:37.579
I liked history the most because, um, that seems to be the story of what people have actually bet their lives on.

00:49:37.579 --> 00:49:38.014
Yeah.

00:49:38.014 --> 00:49:41.079
So you can come up with a lot of philosophies.

00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:42.679
or sophistries.

00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:50.949
You know, you can argue for almost anything, but if someone asked you to put your life on the line for it, you'd probably walk yourself back from that position.

00:49:51.750 --> 00:49:58.389
Um, and so what I like about history is it is for better, for worse, these are the things people actually bet their lives on.

00:49:58.400 --> 00:49:58.889
Yeah.

00:49:59.295 --> 00:49:59.614
Right.

00:49:59.744 --> 00:50:12.625
You know, I think we're, we can get into the political segment of our podcast later, but when I think about sophistry, I think about, you know, some of the results of this most recent election, you know, did people really care what Beyonce had to say?

00:50:12.804 --> 00:50:13.135
Yeah.

00:50:13.364 --> 00:50:14.934
Uh, you know.

00:50:15.489 --> 00:50:29.929
Anyway, I digress, but it's like what is really important, you know, and to a large extent this last election, like the single binding issue on the democratic party seemed to have become an abortion.

00:50:30.690 --> 00:50:34.460
That was their big, an orange man, a big place to stand, an orange man really bad.

00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:52.550
Um, and Especially on the abortion issue, it actually only affects hopefully only one or two out of 100 people each year, you know, on a regular basis, it certainly affects humanity and stuff and whatever, but it isn't like a prevailing issue that's actually important to everybody a lot.

00:50:53.210 --> 00:50:58.590
The notion that it is, is, you know, election fodder primarily in my perception.

00:50:58.949 --> 00:51:01.309
I certainly have not had to make a decision.

00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:01.769
Agreed.

00:51:01.769 --> 00:51:03.150
About whether or not I'm going to.

00:51:03.934 --> 00:51:04.244
Fair.

00:51:04.545 --> 00:51:07.894
And we can cross that political bridge when we come to it.

00:51:08.525 --> 00:51:10.614
But the truth is, it just doesn't affect that many people.

00:51:10.755 --> 00:51:13.664
You know, my wife hasn't thought about the question of abortion for a long time.

00:51:13.764 --> 00:51:14.175
Oh yeah.

00:51:14.434 --> 00:51:14.755
Right?

00:51:14.755 --> 00:51:15.264
And neither have I.

00:51:15.264 --> 00:51:16.855
And my wife and I are past that place as well.

00:51:17.405 --> 00:51:18.005
Exactly, right?

00:51:18.355 --> 00:51:18.735
Yeah, yeah.

00:51:19.054 --> 00:51:24.135
There's only, you know, a certain bandwidth of relationships and people that are really in that.

00:51:24.135 --> 00:51:24.985
But I can see what you say.

00:51:24.985 --> 00:51:28.875
Well, it's What generations thereafter, but anyway, I digress.

00:51:28.954 --> 00:51:30.465
Uh, we can talk about other stuff history.

00:51:30.614 --> 00:51:34.764
Well, then it's I mean Those are questions people have been dealing with as long as humans have been alive.

00:51:34.804 --> 00:52:00.934
Sure and and and there was a time when a humans be a hue it seemed like a human beings life was about developing into a certain type of person And it was thought that you did that by observing reality and conforming yourself to that external reality in a meaningful and virtuous way.

00:52:01.735 --> 00:52:08.054
And some of what qualified as meaningful or virtuous might change a little bit culture to culture.

00:52:09.034 --> 00:52:13.164
But there was something about looking outward and becoming more like something better.

00:52:13.264 --> 00:52:13.724
Yeah.

00:52:13.864 --> 00:52:14.065
Yeah.

00:52:14.894 --> 00:52:19.164
And, um, and I think that our present moment.

00:52:19.764 --> 00:52:27.255
has a healthy dose of reality doesn't exist out there, reality exists inside of me.

00:52:28.065 --> 00:52:41.655
And it can change moment to moment based on, uh, a variety of factors or whims or beliefs, you know, depending on, on how seriously you take some of that stuff.

00:52:41.715 --> 00:52:42.114
Yeah.

00:52:42.394 --> 00:52:51.844
And, um, So I think it's an interesting time to think about history, philosophy, how you live in the world, why you live in the world.

00:52:52.005 --> 00:52:56.195
Well, when you were talking about leaders of empires, I was thinking about the Orange Man.

00:52:56.414 --> 00:52:56.844
Oh yeah.

00:52:57.394 --> 00:52:57.735
Right?

00:52:57.784 --> 00:52:58.295
Aro.

00:52:58.414 --> 00:53:03.905
Hard to say, uh, how he fits into that congregation of That dude's a wild guy.

00:53:03.974 --> 00:53:05.554
For sure, for sure.

00:53:05.914 --> 00:53:06.204
Yeah.

00:53:06.284 --> 00:53:16.594
Um, so, so tell me, I guess, so you, you Go do your Oxford tour, you get married, did you guys start a family right away so you got littles and stuff too?

00:53:16.605 --> 00:53:25.525
No, we um, so we, we lived in Europe for two years together, and then we decided to move and open an office for Heinz in Arizona.

00:53:25.704 --> 00:53:26.054
Okay.

00:53:26.355 --> 00:53:31.795
Um, And so we relocated to Arizona, started an office there, built that up.

00:53:31.815 --> 00:53:36.144
And in a very, I mean, in a year and a half, we doubled the size of Heinz from, Oh, wow.

00:53:36.144 --> 00:53:36.505
Basis.

00:53:36.554 --> 00:53:37.025
Okay.

00:53:37.094 --> 00:53:41.784
And so I started thinking maybe this is something that I could be before I make that company worth too much.

00:53:41.784 --> 00:53:42.514
I should consider.

00:53:42.514 --> 00:53:43.644
Oh, I wish.

00:53:43.644 --> 00:53:50.114
Um, um, and then that far ahead, the 2007, eight recession hit.

00:53:50.114 --> 00:53:52.519
And, uh, our.

00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:56.469
Company shrank by 75 percent in under a year.

00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:03.289
And that was not something that, um, company, the company was prepared.

00:54:03.289 --> 00:54:04.250
Familiar with weather.

00:54:04.469 --> 00:54:05.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:54:06.190 --> 00:54:14.699
Uh, so you had to do layoffs a lot sooner than you did, uh, manage to scrap together enough money to not go out of business kind of thing.

00:54:15.019 --> 00:54:22.000
Do you want to like, what were the, like, what were the shots across the bow where you really had to make?

00:54:22.795 --> 00:54:23.925
Serious action.

00:54:24.304 --> 00:54:42.675
Well, the, the, the lessons that, that I took away were, uh, don't run on debt ever as a company, uh, financial modeling and cashflow management has to be really probably the premier skillset in the business.

00:54:42.715 --> 00:54:49.684
Especially in a, in a service company with unpredictable ish forward revenues, like unpredictable forward revenues.

00:54:49.695 --> 00:54:51.594
I mean, in a way we're like a barber shop.

00:54:51.655 --> 00:54:53.335
It's very consistent.

00:54:54.179 --> 00:54:54.969
These relationships.

00:54:54.980 --> 00:54:55.179
Yeah.

00:54:55.179 --> 00:54:55.570
Yeah.

00:54:55.699 --> 00:55:16.269
It takes 200 days to get a haircut, but it does take 200 days to get that haircut So so that was really important and then the other was really be able to cut quickly Hmm, and that's so hard to do because you're forming relationships with your friends, you know And I'm just bought his house two years ago.

00:55:16.369 --> 00:55:17.690
Yeah, he's got a little guy.

00:55:17.789 --> 00:55:28.820
Oh, yeah, right So we we have conversations about that Like I have a plan right now for if we have a 20%, 40 percent and 60 percent drop in revenue for some reason.

00:55:28.829 --> 00:55:29.130
Wow.

00:55:29.639 --> 00:55:32.420
I already have the plan and our leadership team knows about it.

00:55:32.940 --> 00:55:41.019
And as a team, we talk about how do we build not just technical fluency, but business acumen fluency at every level of the it.

00:55:41.239 --> 00:55:41.869
Yeah, yeah.

00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:44.480
So that we kind of know what the levers are to pull.

00:55:44.489 --> 00:55:44.869
Yeah, yeah.

00:55:44.869 --> 00:55:46.519
That make Heinz indispensable.

00:55:46.519 --> 00:55:46.719
Yeah.

00:55:46.719 --> 00:55:47.019
Yeah.

00:55:47.394 --> 00:55:53.394
Like, like that's a, so if you want to come work at Heinz, we'd like you to have an interest in just learning about how business works.

00:55:54.215 --> 00:56:01.244
Um, because I can understand things happening that are outside my control and needing to make hard decisions.

00:56:01.744 --> 00:56:09.144
I don't like the idea of refusing to pick up responsibility to learn, teach and train.

00:56:09.804 --> 00:56:15.364
And then when hard things happen that we could have mitigated, I don't like that dynamic.

00:56:15.885 --> 00:56:19.820
I don't like coming to people and saying, You know, we really didn't pay attention to this.

00:56:20.329 --> 00:56:21.289
We've always known it was coming.

00:56:21.289 --> 00:56:24.320
We got totally caught off guard here, but sorry you're late off.

00:56:24.349 --> 00:56:24.920
See you later.

00:56:25.699 --> 00:56:35.190
You know, and that's a, um, that doesn't match well with my personality or template or whatever, so we, we try to avoid that.

00:56:35.760 --> 00:56:37.565
Well, and hopefully it also works.

00:56:38.445 --> 00:56:43.114
You know, when people, do you run a fairly open book kind of financial then too?

00:56:43.434 --> 00:56:43.635
Yeah.

00:56:43.655 --> 00:56:58.114
I figured because then also your team can help you notice expenses that don't need to be in this project or, you know, softwares that we haven't used for nine months as it turns out, even though we still got this subscription.

00:56:58.295 --> 00:56:58.744
Oh yeah.

00:56:59.025 --> 00:56:59.704
All that kind of stuff.

00:56:59.704 --> 00:57:00.394
Push the button.

00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:02.210
Yeah, shut that baby off.

00:57:02.530 --> 00:57:03.130
Exactly.

00:57:03.610 --> 00:57:07.420
So that's a lot of empowerment and as well as being a little scary, right?

00:57:07.429 --> 00:57:12.849
Like, oh, yeah I assume you weren't an open book type company when not too much.

00:57:12.980 --> 00:57:36.135
I mean my My dad has an awesome Openness and And so he I think instilled a lot of this in me I think some of the areas that I have strength in is You is doing that financial modeling, being willing to make some of those decisions based on the data that we're getting.

00:57:36.815 --> 00:57:42.195
Um, being a little bit more structured and having, having some requirements of the team that are a little different.

00:57:42.755 --> 00:57:47.574
Um, but I learned a lot of the, just how do you treat people?

00:57:48.329 --> 00:57:54.510
And, um, you know, from, from my dad, my granddad, you know, from guys like that, that just worked really well with people.

00:57:55.460 --> 00:58:01.380
So you had this big downsize, big downsize, uh, you were able to keep your job at a lesser salary.

00:58:01.570 --> 00:58:03.150
Sharon and I moved to Colorado.

00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:09.405
We, we moved back up to Colorado, uh, we kept a satellite there and some staff down there, but we.

00:58:10.284 --> 00:58:13.315
I mean, I shrank that division within a couple of months.

00:58:13.375 --> 00:58:18.855
I mean, I had land development guys saying, Hey, you're about six months from all your projects being turned off.

00:58:19.614 --> 00:58:21.565
So I started scaling very quickly.

00:58:22.054 --> 00:58:24.255
The Colorado office didn't scale as quickly.

00:58:25.204 --> 00:58:27.394
But what was neat about Colorado, pretty insulated.

00:58:27.954 --> 00:58:31.945
So we had a house in Phoenix that we bought for 215, 000.

00:58:32.425 --> 00:58:34.135
It appraised for 110, 000.

00:58:35.690 --> 00:58:36.940
in the depth of the recession.

00:58:37.030 --> 00:58:37.530
Right, right.

00:58:37.579 --> 00:58:40.530
So, and we were not quite as bad as Vegas, but not much better.

00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:43.780
Well, and we were, we were basically in the old town of Phoenix.

00:58:44.340 --> 00:58:51.159
So houses that were out, you know, 45 minutes from downtown, that 300, 000 house was worth 60.

00:58:51.530 --> 00:58:53.090
I mean, people were just walking away.

00:58:53.909 --> 00:58:57.199
So that market was hit hard, Colorado, not so much.

00:58:57.210 --> 00:59:04.519
So we came and built a really nice, um, client base around public work because they have tax dollars coming in.

00:59:04.590 --> 00:59:10.099
And so we did a lot of great park work, streetscapes, um, that was kind of a pivot at that time.

00:59:10.150 --> 00:59:10.389
Yeah.

00:59:10.389 --> 00:59:12.050
We really built that part of the company up.

00:59:12.139 --> 00:59:12.659
Interesting.

00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:13.139
Okay.

00:59:13.570 --> 00:59:14.610
That saved our bacon.

00:59:14.619 --> 00:59:14.840
Yeah.

00:59:14.840 --> 00:59:15.110
Yeah.

00:59:15.349 --> 00:59:16.960
And then everyone's always got money to spend.

00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:17.679
They do.

00:59:17.739 --> 00:59:18.940
And there were always.

00:59:19.434 --> 00:59:22.545
There was just always that next unusual project.

00:59:22.545 --> 00:59:22.724
Yeah.

00:59:22.724 --> 00:59:23.114
Yeah.

00:59:23.204 --> 00:59:23.695
Interesting.

00:59:23.784 --> 00:59:27.175
Um, we do a lot of luxury project work up in the mountains.

00:59:27.204 --> 00:59:27.594
Sure.

00:59:27.625 --> 00:59:33.764
And so we had, uh, uh, uh, one of the largest landowners in, in a city in Pitkin County.

00:59:34.304 --> 00:59:40.445
Um, and they came and had a couple of years of work, fully renovating, you know, a lovely 25 acre property.

00:59:41.125 --> 00:59:41.375
Yeah.

00:59:41.715 --> 00:59:43.764
I mean, that saved our bake.

00:59:43.775 --> 00:59:45.474
Covered your overhead for a while.

00:59:45.485 --> 00:59:46.184
Oh yeah.

00:59:46.184 --> 00:59:47.704
It was really great.

00:59:48.434 --> 01:00:01.480
Um, And that's in there that started the process of, of dad thinking about, you know, the number one failure in family businesses is that generational transfer change in vision, change in values.

01:00:01.489 --> 01:00:03.380
Some of those sorts of things are so tough.

01:00:04.219 --> 01:00:07.460
And so we started planning 10 years ago.

01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:09.340
How are we going to do this thing?

01:00:09.739 --> 01:00:10.809
How is this going to work?

01:00:10.820 --> 01:00:12.489
We were having conversations before that.

01:00:13.110 --> 01:00:15.719
I had earned 30 percent equity in the company.

01:00:15.730 --> 01:00:16.289
Oh, okay.

01:00:16.380 --> 01:00:20.070
Um, and so we just started working that transition.

01:00:20.199 --> 01:00:22.909
You effectively kind of took that equity in lieu of pay.

01:00:23.159 --> 01:00:23.389
Yeah.

01:00:23.389 --> 01:00:25.300
So you lived more frugally than you might have.

01:00:25.300 --> 01:00:27.969
Didn't have as fast of cars or motorcycles for a little while.

01:00:28.030 --> 01:00:28.519
That's right.

01:00:28.519 --> 01:00:34.329
But you also had something to take to the bank or whatever, when it came time to finish up that transaction with that.

01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:34.800
That's right.

01:00:35.184 --> 01:00:35.655
That's right.

01:00:36.045 --> 01:00:38.195
Yeah, and we continue to live that way.

01:00:38.494 --> 01:00:43.579
Yeah, you know, try to keep it pretty Pretty, uh, tight and simple.

01:00:43.659 --> 01:00:48.190
I like to say most people try to out earn their expenditures rather than under spending their revenues.

01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:48.869
That's rough.

01:00:49.179 --> 01:00:59.875
I know, but unfortunately it's become a cultural norm, and which when you come into times of inflation and harder to find jobs and things like that, that You can see the fruits of that pretty fast.

01:01:00.005 --> 01:01:01.244
It's a stressful way to live.

01:01:01.315 --> 01:01:01.965
Yeah, for sure.

01:01:02.414 --> 01:01:07.074
Um, do you want to talk about that actual transaction of coming into ownership?

01:01:07.085 --> 01:01:11.735
But was there, is there anything of interest in that or is that kind of more private?

01:01:12.385 --> 01:01:13.065
In that regard?

01:01:13.144 --> 01:01:14.414
Let me think about that.

01:01:14.784 --> 01:01:17.795
I think that, I don't think we did anything too complex.

01:01:17.835 --> 01:01:18.155
Okay.

01:01:18.474 --> 01:01:22.719
Uh, in Phoenix, my wife and I started Heinz Inc.

01:01:22.719 --> 01:01:23.155
Okay.

01:01:23.155 --> 01:01:25.769
So Heinz irrigation was typified by.

01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:28.519
Uh, providing irrigation system design.

01:01:29.179 --> 01:01:31.610
So you're working in that construction document world.

01:01:31.610 --> 01:01:38.269
So for people not familiar with what we do, imagine that you're having a house built, you go to the architect, say, draw that house.

01:01:38.969 --> 01:01:42.139
And, and it's not the fluffy picture that they're drawing.

01:01:42.409 --> 01:01:43.659
It's the actual.

01:01:44.155 --> 01:01:51.255
Structural design, every board, every outlet, every wire, every fitting, everything's detailed out, right?

01:01:51.764 --> 01:01:54.014
So Heinz has big expertise in that.

01:01:54.445 --> 01:01:57.594
Something we started doing in Arizona was the upfront water planning.

01:01:58.494 --> 01:02:02.684
So if you're developing a thousand acres, And you need to buy 10 million in water.

01:02:02.894 --> 01:02:03.144
Yep.

01:02:04.184 --> 01:02:06.135
You're going to need to get that water from somewhere.

01:02:06.264 --> 01:02:07.525
What are the water rights?

01:02:07.875 --> 01:02:09.275
Do you need groundwater wells?

01:02:09.275 --> 01:02:10.664
Do you need storage ponds?

01:02:10.664 --> 01:02:11.875
Do you need potable meters?

01:02:11.875 --> 01:02:13.574
Are you building a wastewater treatment plant?

01:02:14.434 --> 01:02:23.885
And if you are wrong about that irrigation water demand, you're over building all of that infrastructure by 50 percent or a hundred percent.

01:02:24.625 --> 01:02:29.684
So Sharon and I, with, in coordination with Heinz Irrigation, we started Heinz Inc.

01:02:29.695 --> 01:02:41.485
to do that financial modeling and water planning up front, give that to cities and developers, they map that into their pro forma, and now they know how much to spend every year for the next 15 years to get this project out.

01:02:41.494 --> 01:02:45.014
Well, they can also potentially design a system that doesn't require so much water.

01:02:45.164 --> 01:02:51.755
And that then, we, we set that water plan in place and then they go to construction documents with Heinz Irrigation.

01:02:51.795 --> 01:02:52.425
Yeah, yeah.

01:02:52.425 --> 01:02:52.559
Yeah.

01:02:52.869 --> 01:02:59.170
And so what that allowed us to do then was, um, buy Heinz irrigation essentially over time.

01:02:59.340 --> 01:02:59.780
Yeah.

01:02:59.829 --> 01:03:07.599
And so we set a, and there's some ways that we structured that with our accountants that were beneficial from a tax planning perspective for my family.

01:03:08.130 --> 01:03:12.969
Um, we, we did have a, um, a couple of valuations done.

01:03:13.269 --> 01:03:15.420
We picked the highest valuation.

01:03:16.070 --> 01:03:18.800
Um, we've, I've got kind of three siblings.

01:03:19.510 --> 01:03:25.360
So it was really important that they never feel like, you know, they got aced out of exactly the situation.

01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:29.170
Although certainly from their perspective, they recognize that you.

01:03:29.409 --> 01:03:31.400
Made dad's business worth a lot more too.

01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:33.360
By the time he exited or you helped to do so.

01:03:33.360 --> 01:03:44.030
Anyway, I was just reflecting how, oh gosh, forever ago, number 47 or something was a gal, Emily Kincaid, that was a former member of loco.

01:03:44.059 --> 01:03:46.849
Um, sadly she passed on from an aggressive cancer.

01:03:48.594 --> 01:03:50.715
She built a company doing frack water.

01:03:50.835 --> 01:03:55.554
Yeah, finding, brokering, moving, pumping That's cool.

01:03:55.614 --> 01:04:09.635
And that was like it's interesting that your puzzle is a little bit similar to hers They were like, oh we need this many cubic feet per minute of frack water for this well and You know, you can get it from wherever you want.

01:04:09.744 --> 01:04:11.244
Yeah, but where are you gonna get it from?

01:04:11.304 --> 01:04:17.505
Yeah, you know, there's these farmers that have ponds and these farmers that have water rights on the canal And you know, where are you gonna get it from?

01:04:17.585 --> 01:04:18.085
Oh, yeah.

01:04:18.454 --> 01:04:19.614
Oh, yeah, that's fantastic.

01:04:20.635 --> 01:04:27.179
Oh, she was a dynamo Yeah, it was a really really superb and she built a 200 employee company.

01:04:27.179 --> 01:04:31.800
I was like a 31 year old gal in Weld County, you know, and just no fear.

01:04:31.829 --> 01:04:35.300
Just a lot of just, uh, joy and love.

01:04:35.300 --> 01:04:37.039
And one of the people I'll miss forever.

01:04:37.059 --> 01:04:37.340
Kind of.

01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:38.440
That's amazing.

01:04:38.449 --> 01:04:38.789
Yeah.

01:04:39.300 --> 01:04:40.750
There's so many amazing people out there.

01:04:40.760 --> 01:04:41.460
There really are.

01:04:41.460 --> 01:04:44.460
And I'm in a blessed place that I get to meet a lot of them, you know?

01:04:45.159 --> 01:04:49.900
Um, I feel like we've covered a lot of the business journey.

01:04:49.900 --> 01:04:53.579
We haven't grown, you know, we kind of went back to high school, but let's, let's talk about little Nate.

01:04:54.150 --> 01:04:55.630
Little, little six year old Nate.

01:04:55.670 --> 01:04:55.960
You were.

01:04:56.489 --> 01:04:58.059
A town townie, is that right?

01:04:58.059 --> 01:05:00.380
Your dad was around here already, or did you guys move here?

01:05:00.460 --> 01:05:04.210
So I was born in, uh, Decatur, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:04.690
Okay.

01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:08.670
And my dad's people all come from Kentucky and West Virginia.

01:05:08.719 --> 01:05:09.079
Okay.

01:05:10.619 --> 01:05:11.050
Very.

01:05:11.880 --> 01:05:12.280
Yeah.

01:05:12.349 --> 01:05:21.860
I mean, I have a, I had a great uncle who, you know, went to federal prison for some alcohol during prohibition thing, transportation or development or something like that.

01:05:21.860 --> 01:05:22.579
Yeah, I like that.

01:05:22.599 --> 01:05:24.639
Moonshiner kind of bootlegger kind of style thing.

01:05:24.710 --> 01:05:25.010
Okay.

01:05:25.039 --> 01:05:33.344
Yeah, but definitely, um, a, um, You know, a rambunctious group and my mom's family, they're all French Canadian lumberjacks.

01:05:33.414 --> 01:05:35.454
Oh, also a rambunctious group.

01:05:35.574 --> 01:05:40.875
Her side of the family was all about feats of strength and, you know, drinking and knocking people out.

01:05:40.875 --> 01:05:41.945
I like it.

01:05:42.755 --> 01:05:48.755
Um, and we, um, yeah, born in Georgia, born in Atlanta.

01:05:48.795 --> 01:05:50.715
And when I was three, we moved to Nashville.

01:05:50.715 --> 01:05:51.965
My dad's family was there.

01:05:52.630 --> 01:05:56.489
And, uh, we were in Nashville, Tennessee till I was 11.

01:05:57.139 --> 01:05:59.480
So, 89, we relocated to Fort Collins.

01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:01.550
And my dad was working as a mechanical.

01:06:01.550 --> 01:06:02.130
How was that?

01:06:02.130 --> 01:06:03.420
Oh, it was awesome.

01:06:03.429 --> 01:06:06.000
You thought it was awesome coming from Tennessee to Colorado?

01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:06.900
It was, changed my life.

01:06:07.309 --> 01:06:11.239
I mean, I've always been a, um, can't sit still, want to be outside kid.

01:06:11.250 --> 01:06:11.690
Yeah, yeah.

01:06:11.739 --> 01:06:20.688
So, I started, um, We lived in a part of Nashville, now it's lovely, Sylvan Park, um, you know, million dollar homes, awesome place to live.

01:06:20.688 --> 01:06:22.195
Right, now that it's been gentrified properly.

01:06:22.494 --> 01:06:23.494
Properly gentrified.

01:06:24.414 --> 01:06:27.425
When I was growing up, it was, it was, it was rough.

01:06:27.474 --> 01:06:27.914
Yeah.

01:06:27.985 --> 01:06:31.994
And, um, um, but I was just out.

01:06:32.364 --> 01:06:36.985
Running around with a BB gun 18 hours a day.

01:06:37.045 --> 01:06:37.525
Yeah.

01:06:37.525 --> 01:06:37.525
Yeah.

01:06:37.885 --> 01:06:43.764
And um, so coming to Colorado meant just, and Fort Collins at the time, pretty small.

01:06:43.764 --> 01:06:44.664
A lot of dirt roads.

01:06:44.695 --> 01:06:45.054
Totally.

01:06:45.295 --> 01:06:47.364
We just, we just lived, like, had a bicycle.

01:06:47.364 --> 01:06:48.684
Tom Sawyer knew how to use it.

01:06:48.835 --> 01:06:49.554
It was awesome.

01:06:49.554 --> 01:06:51.324
They should pull on a bicycle and I knew how to use them.

01:06:51.594 --> 01:06:52.014
Oh yeah.

01:06:53.010 --> 01:06:53.719
It was incredible.

01:06:54.019 --> 01:06:57.900
And to this day, um, you know, we've lived in a bunch of different places.

01:06:58.420 --> 01:07:05.739
Um, but coming back at you, flying to DIA and you see the mountains there, it is the best.

01:07:05.769 --> 01:07:08.420
You don't have a place that you dream of moving to here.

01:07:08.460 --> 01:07:10.050
I just, I love being, not yet.

01:07:10.239 --> 01:07:11.360
It's getting a little busy.

01:07:12.065 --> 01:07:13.684
You know, it's getting a little busy.

01:07:14.235 --> 01:07:17.775
I mean, before the California started moving to Montana, that was really nice.

01:07:18.335 --> 01:07:20.184
Idaho has still got some decent spots.

01:07:20.184 --> 01:07:20.664
I don't know.

01:07:21.894 --> 01:07:22.135
Yeah.

01:07:22.135 --> 01:07:27.954
If it was just me, I'd probably be in Idaho or somewhere like that, you know, a little bit quieter and Collins is great.

01:07:27.994 --> 01:07:28.184
Yeah.

01:07:28.184 --> 01:07:28.394
Yeah.

01:07:28.394 --> 01:07:28.855
It's great.

01:07:29.284 --> 01:07:33.554
Um, so you were, Rambunctious kid.

01:07:33.554 --> 01:07:35.054
Did you get good grades and stuff?

01:07:35.054 --> 01:07:35.625
Were you trying?

01:07:35.630 --> 01:07:35.860
Yeah.

01:07:35.954 --> 01:07:36.224
Yeah.

01:07:36.494 --> 01:07:36.824
Yeah.

01:07:36.824 --> 01:07:37.994
I always hated school.

01:07:38.025 --> 01:07:40.335
I mean, I loved, it was a tortured relationship.

01:07:40.335 --> 01:07:45.284
I always felt like I could do it three hours, what school was trying to do in eight Yeah.

01:07:45.344 --> 01:07:51.315
And so I've just had an inborn resentment for needing to take eight hours to do what it TA takes.

01:07:51.315 --> 01:07:51.614
Yeah.

01:07:51.994 --> 01:07:53.764
Most people I think three hours to do.

01:07:53.824 --> 01:07:54.085
Yeah.

01:07:54.085 --> 01:08:06.985
Yeah, and unfortunately, yep So I kind of flipped back and forth between homeschooling and going to school Okay, and I don't know if that was my parents plan, but it was just kind of a necessity Yeah, homeschooling with your mom.

01:08:07.005 --> 01:08:08.315
Yeah, your mom's direction mostly.

01:08:08.355 --> 01:08:13.664
Yeah, and even that was She would get up, and I was usually done with most of my schooling.

01:08:13.664 --> 01:08:16.215
So, pretty self directed.

01:08:16.215 --> 01:08:20.375
And I'm not sure that they knew what to do with me.

01:08:21.064 --> 01:08:23.795
So, it was a lot of running around.

01:08:25.255 --> 01:08:28.654
Um, High school jobs and stuff too, I suspect.

01:08:28.654 --> 01:08:31.034
So you had a little pocket money to chase girls with her.

01:08:31.034 --> 01:08:36.895
I started mowing lawns when I was five or six school jobs, dude.

01:08:36.895 --> 01:08:43.145
My, um, the lawnmower at our house was a nasty old thing that you pushed in front of you.

01:08:43.154 --> 01:08:45.725
I mean, it was, it was a pretty significant hazard.

01:08:45.835 --> 01:08:46.295
Yeah.

01:08:46.395 --> 01:08:52.385
Um, and then I started when I was eight or nine going out and working at a ranch for a family friend on weekends.

01:08:52.385 --> 01:08:52.725
Okay.

01:08:52.965 --> 01:08:53.965
And that was awesome.

01:08:54.444 --> 01:08:55.585
And so I was.

01:08:55.649 --> 01:08:58.850
fixing fences, catching horses, shooting guns.

01:08:58.850 --> 01:09:02.060
I mean, it was, it was awesome.

01:09:02.409 --> 01:09:04.560
And so I had a lot of fond memories of that.

01:09:04.609 --> 01:09:08.739
My granddad was a really hard worker and owned businesses and things like that.

01:09:08.739 --> 01:09:10.529
So I worked for him in Nashville.

01:09:10.920 --> 01:09:13.770
Um, and, uh, enjoyed that a bunch.

01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:19.760
And, um, and then when we moved to Colorado, I got, I used to deliver the Colorado and newspaper.

01:09:20.449 --> 01:09:22.460
I was 13, 14 summers.

01:09:22.460 --> 01:09:24.789
I would mow lawns wintertime.

01:09:24.789 --> 01:09:33.715
I would, um, uh, Deliver papers and, and, um, the big reason for, I think some of that is we just didn't have any money growing up.

01:09:33.755 --> 01:09:34.055
Yeah.

01:09:34.064 --> 01:09:47.875
I mean, we, um, we were, your dad had started his business, but it was not till 96, 94, sorry, 93 is when he started and it took a couple of years to get a taxable income and they had four kids.

01:09:47.895 --> 01:09:48.225
Yeah.

01:09:48.625 --> 01:09:59.640
Um, but when we, when I was little, The number of times that my sister who's three years younger than me, we had to push start the car so mom could jumpstart it to get to work and school.

01:09:59.649 --> 01:10:01.710
She'd drop us off at school and go to work.

01:10:02.399 --> 01:10:08.090
And we, uh, there were periods of time where, um, people in the community were bringing food to us.

01:10:09.399 --> 01:10:10.260
Didn't have a lot of money.

01:10:10.409 --> 01:10:10.899
Yeah, no.

01:10:10.899 --> 01:10:27.125
I mean, I, I, my, my, uh, my mom discovered, gosh, about the time I graduated high school, that my dad had cashed in the savings bonds that her parents had bought for me when I was born, you know, a couple of hundred dollars of savings bonds or something like that.

01:10:27.595 --> 01:10:32.244
Um, but that was, that was how desperate times were at times for our family as well.

01:10:32.255 --> 01:10:34.645
I mean, we were free school lunch for many years and all that.

01:10:34.664 --> 01:10:35.904
So, which is good.

01:10:36.625 --> 01:11:01.015
Like honestly, like when I got out of banking and, you know, Um, you know, my income went from 85, 000 a year to 15, uh, and, you know, Jill and I had to navigate that journey, you know, we, we certainly negative cashflow for a while, but we'd grown fat and happy, you know, and, and going through some periods and it keeps you humble when you're talking to others that don't have as much right now either.

01:11:01.604 --> 01:11:05.284
So I think I consider it a blessing usually as long as you get your way out of the other end of it.

01:11:05.475 --> 01:11:08.314
Yeah, you teach you, you have to learn a lot about who you are.

01:11:08.395 --> 01:11:08.715
Yeah.

01:11:09.015 --> 01:11:10.024
And if you're going to.

01:11:10.234 --> 01:11:12.614
What sort of person you're going to be in hardship?

01:11:12.824 --> 01:11:13.625
Yeah, yeah.

01:11:13.654 --> 01:11:25.694
And, um, so there was, um, there was some healthy and some unhealthy, uh, perceptions that I had of myself and of our family coming out of that.

01:11:25.755 --> 01:11:26.164
Yeah, yeah.

01:11:26.175 --> 01:11:27.145
One of them was.

01:11:27.659 --> 01:11:30.930
Um, you're, you're going to have to raise and provide for yourself.

01:11:30.989 --> 01:11:31.369
Yeah.

01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:31.619
Yeah.

01:11:31.619 --> 01:11:31.770
Yeah.

01:11:31.970 --> 01:11:38.960
Which can, can provide some, uh, positive results from the outside and some positive results, period.

01:11:38.970 --> 01:11:39.489
Yeah.

01:11:39.529 --> 01:11:44.890
But also it can give you some stuff that may have you look at the world in other people and stuff like that.

01:11:44.960 --> 01:11:46.689
Yeah, no, I can feel that for sure.

01:11:46.960 --> 01:11:54.560
I, uh, you know, when I got to, Even when I got to college, you know, as a very rural, I grew up high school class of five, right?

01:11:54.569 --> 01:12:12.154
So in North Dakota, everybody thinks they're kind of losers because you have to live in North Dakota already And but you know, I want to go to college and I'm kind of got this kind of, you know, less I'm less Capable, even though I did all my schoolwork in three hours and everybody else took eight too.

01:12:12.564 --> 01:12:18.765
And it took me a couple of years to really acknowledge to myself that, Oh, I'm actually just as capable, you know?

01:12:18.765 --> 01:12:22.284
And then part of that is the, and then that's poverty too, right?

01:12:22.295 --> 01:12:27.324
Like poverty is more social relational than it is financial.

01:12:27.875 --> 01:12:30.510
And in most, Places.

01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:36.029
I mean, it's always really financial too, but it's that, that feeling of hopelessness that you can't get there.

01:12:36.590 --> 01:12:39.960
Sounds like your family didn't quite get there, but you definitely had some scars.

01:12:40.409 --> 01:12:40.819
Yeah.

01:12:40.850 --> 01:12:49.710
There was a sense of, and this probably didn't come from the poverty part, probably just came from family dynamics, but just, uh, some undealt with chaos.

01:12:49.710 --> 01:12:55.100
And, um, that along with poverty, I think it's pretty, it's pretty rough.

01:12:55.109 --> 01:12:55.569
Fair enough.

01:12:56.319 --> 01:13:04.199
Um, I think that, um, I'm gonna call a short break, and then we will have a closing segments.

01:13:04.359 --> 01:13:04.770
I love it.

01:13:04.829 --> 01:13:05.619
And then we'll wrap up.

01:13:05.739 --> 01:13:06.199
Sounds great.

01:13:06.229 --> 01:13:06.789
All right, it's been fun.

01:13:06.829 --> 01:13:07.220
Yeah, buddy.

01:13:50.524 --> 01:13:54.335
Um, we always talk about faith, family, and politics.

01:13:54.675 --> 01:13:59.475
Uh, so obviously, like, you know where you could get weed if you wanted to.

01:13:59.475 --> 01:14:02.654
You didn't have to wait nine years, but you're, so you're not opposed to it.

01:14:02.654 --> 01:14:07.404
But you're, I sense that you're a, a high performance focused individual.

01:14:07.404 --> 01:14:07.935
Is that right?

01:14:07.935 --> 01:14:10.505
And that this is not a performance enhancing drug.

01:14:10.505 --> 01:14:12.744
And so therefore, It's off the table.

01:14:13.375 --> 01:14:14.854
I mean, it's not that it's off the table.

01:14:15.354 --> 01:14:18.284
I just, um, Don't want to be habituated toward it or whatever.

01:14:18.784 --> 01:14:26.095
Yeah, and, and, and I think people, well, I know everybody responds to all the things that happen in life in a variety of ways.

01:14:27.145 --> 01:14:33.369
And, um, mine has been, um, Taking responsibility for everything.

01:14:34.229 --> 01:14:36.569
And managing is at as high a level.

01:14:36.569 --> 01:14:42.739
I can managing stress and otherwise through mostly physical effort kind of thing.

01:14:42.739 --> 01:14:48.180
And then on the mental side, I suspect you meditate, yoga, all that kind of stuff too.

01:14:49.359 --> 01:14:49.689
Yeah.

01:14:49.829 --> 01:15:06.965
Um, So I guess from a, from a political standpoint, which of those, like, I, I was just listening to Tucker Carlson talk about how he would like to see the U S become Saudi Arabia, rid of all the drugs, you know, chop off fentanyl dealers, hands, like just stop all of it.

01:15:06.965 --> 01:15:14.555
Because as Americans, we're all on something just about like between pills, alcohol, weed, and sugar.

01:15:14.720 --> 01:15:15.630
X sugar.

01:15:15.680 --> 01:15:15.979
Yep.

01:15:15.989 --> 01:15:24.279
I mean, sugar is, you know, activates all of the, uh, a bunch of the networks in the brain that cocaine does, um, big dopamine hit.

01:15:24.399 --> 01:15:28.420
It is a powerful mood, uh, mood stabilizer.

01:15:29.239 --> 01:15:32.039
Um, obviously I don't think it is cocaine, right?

01:15:32.500 --> 01:15:35.960
There are a bunch of, a bunch of us that can't keep it on the road unless we have a lot of sugar.

01:15:35.975 --> 01:15:38.225
You fall, you know, you fall apart.

01:15:38.505 --> 01:15:40.055
You a sugar addict then?

01:15:40.484 --> 01:15:40.805
No.

01:15:40.805 --> 01:15:41.654
No.

01:15:41.654 --> 01:15:41.904
No.

01:15:42.215 --> 01:15:44.314
No, you're, I mean, you would, you would pin it.

01:15:44.324 --> 01:15:52.154
My, um, my propensities would be to get addicted and rely on things that make me look better in public.

01:15:52.154 --> 01:15:53.345
Stronger, prettier.

01:15:54.960 --> 01:15:57.829
So that's a big risk there, but do you want more of that or should I put that out?

01:15:57.840 --> 01:15:58.359
No, I'm good to go.

01:15:58.390 --> 01:15:58.680
You're good?

01:15:58.739 --> 01:15:59.010
Okay.

01:15:59.050 --> 01:15:59.520
Yeah.

01:15:59.640 --> 01:16:03.420
Um, I mean, you just, uh, you just smoked weed on the local experience.

01:16:03.539 --> 01:16:03.970
That's right.

01:16:03.970 --> 01:16:05.750
Your public persona takes damage.

01:16:06.140 --> 01:16:11.760
You know, I'm, I, uh, It's pretty good already, so you'll be fine.

01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:13.260
Yeah, I have no idea.

01:16:14.234 --> 01:16:16.465
And there's just probably not time to care a whole lot about it.

01:16:16.475 --> 01:16:17.914
We don't have that many listeners anyway.

01:16:18.104 --> 01:16:18.784
Oh, no.

01:16:18.824 --> 01:16:19.465
It's ridiculous.

01:16:19.465 --> 01:16:20.104
You guys are great.

01:16:21.305 --> 01:16:28.244
Um, but yeah, it's, it's, uh, I don't know that I do a whole lot of good caring too much about public persona.

01:16:28.364 --> 01:16:28.864
Fair enough.

01:16:28.904 --> 01:16:29.295
Fair enough.

01:16:29.314 --> 01:16:30.385
Well, that's a good reason to be on.

01:16:31.970 --> 01:16:39.640
I've had a couple of failed episodes and it was always people that were like employees of some visible local company.

01:16:40.329 --> 01:16:48.939
And either it was just a sucky episode or in one case they, they wrote an email the next day and said, Hey, we can't publish that.

01:16:48.939 --> 01:16:50.210
That's not in line.

01:16:50.520 --> 01:16:52.149
That's why I'd like to talk to business owners.

01:16:52.659 --> 01:16:54.819
Cause you can choose for yourself what you want to talk about.

01:16:55.319 --> 01:16:56.270
And I think that's.

01:16:57.925 --> 01:17:01.734
Like, I don't know if we want to drift into this part of the politics, but we just had an election.

01:17:01.875 --> 01:17:02.024
Yeah.

01:17:02.024 --> 01:17:02.814
We can go anywhere, man.

01:17:02.835 --> 01:17:21.564
You know, I think that this election certainly was heavily impacted by the, the 2020, um, COVID scene and the BLM scene and the kind of reverse reaction in some ways to the law fair against Trump in the subsequent years and things like that.

01:17:21.805 --> 01:17:21.975
Yeah.

01:17:22.425 --> 01:17:25.854
Um, I guess my question is, is how.

01:17:27.510 --> 01:17:29.170
should we structure society?

01:17:29.340 --> 01:17:32.609
Like, like how much liberty should people have?

01:17:33.140 --> 01:17:41.430
Um, how much, you know, you hear, I mean, it isn't really a liberty versus not liberty, um, environment anymore.

01:17:41.550 --> 01:17:41.859
Yeah.

01:17:41.909 --> 01:17:50.180
You know, the Democrats are my body, my choice, except for get your vaccine, you communist or fascist or whatever.

01:17:50.350 --> 01:17:53.550
And, and, you know, we need to police online.

01:17:55.010 --> 01:18:00.829
free speech is kind of, for when you're talking to somebody in person, it never supposed to apply to the internet or something.

01:18:00.829 --> 01:18:01.119
Right.

01:18:01.289 --> 01:18:01.960
And gun rights.

01:18:02.300 --> 01:18:11.180
And then the other side is, you know, the, the conservative basis is at least accused of restricting rights in some ways.

01:18:11.199 --> 01:18:19.640
Um, you know, I tend to put my, I'm, I'm actually really proud of the anti war pro liberty pro liberty movement.

01:18:20.350 --> 01:18:24.449
inclusion of others in the tent kind of movement that happened for Trump this year.

01:18:24.930 --> 01:18:26.680
But what's your thoughts on that big picture stuff?

01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:28.729
Like where, where are we going?

01:18:28.729 --> 01:18:31.659
What's our, what's our culture willing to become?

01:18:32.569 --> 01:18:34.600
Are they willing to put in the work to become strong?

01:18:35.550 --> 01:18:35.789
Yeah.

01:18:35.789 --> 01:18:47.319
It seems like, I feel like, um, the war has, the culture war has been, um, magnified by the internet.

01:18:47.859 --> 01:18:48.229
Sure.

01:18:48.329 --> 01:19:01.680
And so I think I think there are whole arguments, uh, that look very divisive that if you just walk down a street in Fort Collins, everyone would, you know, pretty much agree and be happy about it and let's get together and have a barbecue.

01:19:02.439 --> 01:19:07.909
Um, but the, the, I think the media presented war seems to be a war against competence.

01:19:09.090 --> 01:19:09.649
Yeah.

01:19:09.939 --> 01:19:19.079
Um, or of the, um, the idea that, Uh, I'm most responsible for myself.

01:19:20.100 --> 01:19:25.159
Um, you know, that, that seems to be something that has shifted a bit.

01:19:25.520 --> 01:19:25.840
Yeah.

01:19:25.840 --> 01:19:26.189
Yeah.

01:19:27.300 --> 01:19:32.970
I wrote a blog about that, uh, a while back that, you know, the first thing you got to be responsible is for yourself.

01:19:32.979 --> 01:19:36.100
And if you're there, then you can start caring about other people's stuff more.

01:19:36.100 --> 01:19:44.699
But if you're irresponsible in yourself, you kind of lose your, like, should we, Should we restrict voting rights in that capacity?

01:19:45.159 --> 01:19:55.680
Well, I've heard I think Vivek put that notion forward that if you're not a taxpayer at some level I've um, you don't get to vote if you're just if you just receive benefits.

01:19:55.689 --> 01:19:58.470
Yeah, and you've never paid taxes You don't get a vote.

01:19:59.229 --> 01:20:11.835
I don't know what I think about that There's a part of me that likes it that that likes the idea I think probably what I would do I think what you should tie that to if you do that is Make everyone pay taxes.

01:20:12.295 --> 01:20:12.305
Mmm.

01:20:13.385 --> 01:20:14.024
In some capacity.

01:20:14.244 --> 01:20:15.614
In some capacity.

01:20:15.694 --> 01:20:16.095
Yeah.

01:20:16.164 --> 01:20:20.034
Um, even if it's, even if it's, even if it's just a little bit.

01:20:20.085 --> 01:20:20.635
Yeah, yeah.

01:20:20.694 --> 01:20:26.984
And you know, I don't know what to do if, if someone's born with, with some severe incapacity.

01:20:26.985 --> 01:20:28.635
Down syndrome or whatever.

01:20:28.664 --> 01:20:28.885
Right.

01:20:28.904 --> 01:20:29.385
Yes.

01:20:29.404 --> 01:20:37.180
Or you're a military veteran and or your military family and you Lose the spouse when they're overfighting.

01:20:37.180 --> 01:20:37.760
You got five little kids.

01:20:37.761 --> 01:20:50.670
The government doing something like the, and maybe not even saying the government, the American people electing people who will write policy to figure out how to take care of people in need like that.

01:20:51.569 --> 01:20:52.649
I am all for it.

01:20:52.680 --> 01:20:56.460
And then I'm probably really all for, uh, people giving.

01:20:57.164 --> 01:21:04.965
privately outside of, out of the government too, that, that even probably is better for Americans to take ownership of.

01:21:05.045 --> 01:21:08.164
Have we, uh, have I shared my motto with you from LOCO here?

01:21:08.204 --> 01:21:08.694
No.

01:21:08.774 --> 01:21:11.975
I had it for a couple of years before I formed LOCO even actually.

01:21:11.975 --> 01:21:14.854
It's, uh, ask of your needs and share of your abundance.

01:21:14.854 --> 01:21:15.244
Yeah.

01:21:15.244 --> 01:21:15.975
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:21:16.055 --> 01:21:26.704
Um, and it's really, it's kind of a, a more complicated motto because, um, like, don't ask of your wants, because I don't want to provide for your wants.

01:21:27.175 --> 01:21:39.664
Um, you know, but do ask of your needs and including like business leaders and, you know, people that try to hide their fears and, and whatever, sometimes, uh, their shortfalls or weaknesses, there's, there's, there's scary spots.

01:21:40.335 --> 01:21:47.085
Um, and then the share of your abundance also implies don't take it from me, you know, but be gracious to share.

01:21:47.095 --> 01:21:51.895
And I think that's a better way to, to, to, Create a strong society.

01:21:51.984 --> 01:21:52.414
Oh yeah.

01:21:52.475 --> 01:21:59.435
You know, especially with AI coming along, AI can be like, well, we should down, downsize funding for respite care.

01:21:59.454 --> 01:22:03.704
Cause there isn't as much need, we should upsize for United Way.

01:22:04.524 --> 01:22:09.364
But we do have a lot of nonprofit organizations that are funded by generosity in this country.

01:22:09.365 --> 01:22:12.324
And there's a, there's a great book on this subject.

01:22:12.385 --> 01:22:13.715
The title escapes me.

01:22:14.159 --> 01:22:33.604
It might just be called giving or something like that and it was written by a more left leaning person who went he talks about this He went in to write the book believing that what he would find is is that other Western nations like European countries Take far better care of the poor and of their societies.

01:22:33.654 --> 01:22:36.234
And that comes through government largesse.

01:22:36.494 --> 01:22:40.364
Um, and what he found is, I think the book is called who cares.

01:22:41.335 --> 01:22:58.755
What he found is America's the most generous country in the history of countries, the amount of small, private and large, but small private donations that go to needy people, uh, is, is extraordinary off the charts, both in our country and around the world.

01:22:59.364 --> 01:23:09.654
And, um, and when you go look at European countries, there is almost no charitable giving in comparison because they just assume the government is going to take care of it.

01:23:10.435 --> 01:23:18.314
Um, so pulling that and separating that out from, uh, Individual community responsibility, I think is really not good.

01:23:19.024 --> 01:23:28.845
And so I love the, um, I love the, the, the, concept of hyper localization.

01:23:28.845 --> 01:23:34.935
There's a specific word for that, that concept, subsidiarity.

01:23:34.935 --> 01:23:44.024
So subsidiarity is the idea that you drive responsibility down to the lowest, not lowest, but smallest possible unit.

01:23:44.805 --> 01:23:52.564
So if I, if my wife and I are making a decision about how much meat we need to buy for the family for the next day, week, or month.

01:23:53.215 --> 01:23:57.475
It's best for us to make that decision rather than somebody in Washington D.

01:23:57.484 --> 01:23:57.885
C.

01:23:57.885 --> 01:24:02.064
saying the Heinz family needs 17 ounces of protein a day.

01:24:02.515 --> 01:24:07.244
Now let's direct every decision between here and there to try to make sure they get it.

01:24:07.305 --> 01:24:07.875
It's crazy.

01:24:07.904 --> 01:24:13.725
Subsidiarity would say, drive responsibility down to the smallest possible unit.

01:24:14.225 --> 01:24:16.564
So individual, family, family.

01:24:17.250 --> 01:24:23.930
Village community, community, city, state, you know, keep fire trucks low as possible in that, in that hierarchy.

01:24:24.489 --> 01:24:26.659
Uh, and I'm a big, a big fan of that.

01:24:26.729 --> 01:24:33.079
So Trump, he just announced that, uh, the department of education is on his chopping block.

01:24:33.130 --> 01:24:33.449
Good.

01:24:33.729 --> 01:24:34.800
You feel good about that?

01:24:34.880 --> 01:24:35.300
Oh yeah.

01:24:35.300 --> 01:24:41.600
That's, um, you know, in light of that principle, well, competition among states and among regions.

01:24:41.680 --> 01:24:44.390
200 years ago, a kid couldn't start school.

01:24:45.185 --> 01:24:52.104
Kindergarten, what we would call kindergarten until they were fully fluent in reading, writing, and basic arithmetic.

01:24:53.305 --> 01:24:53.984
From the parents?

01:24:54.015 --> 01:24:55.225
Yeah, the parents would teach.

01:24:55.574 --> 01:25:04.085
And, and educational studies show that a motivated person will learn to read and write with fluency in under 100 hours.

01:25:04.284 --> 01:25:04.725
Wow.

01:25:05.185 --> 01:25:11.234
And so the idea that, um, anyway, Department of Education was established in the 80s.

01:25:11.324 --> 01:25:11.625
Yeah.

01:25:11.984 --> 01:25:12.515
And.

01:25:13.189 --> 01:25:17.079
There's not a single metric of American education that is approved.

01:25:17.170 --> 01:25:25.609
Yeah since then agreed What we have done is spent millions and trillions of dollars Building an administrative class.

01:25:25.680 --> 01:25:32.659
Yeah, too That could be the deciders over how everybody needs to do their tests and blah blah blah.

01:25:33.060 --> 01:25:45.380
It's insane Yeah, it's almost worse than the homelessness efforts in California but even there it's the same thing like You If education gets fixed, then why do we need the department of education?

01:25:45.500 --> 01:25:46.119
Oh yeah.

01:25:46.189 --> 01:25:47.470
They would run themselves out of business.

01:25:47.470 --> 01:25:47.970
Same thing.

01:25:47.970 --> 01:25:53.050
If you fix homelessness, how are we going to pay all these high paid bureaucrats to fix homelessness?

01:25:53.380 --> 01:26:09.550
Well, it's, it's, I mean, it's a horrible problem in the sense that any, every institution that you start, if it exists past the period when it's providing a real, fixing a real problem in the world, then the.

01:26:09.949 --> 01:26:15.079
then it transitions into something that is only existing to try to keep itself alive.

01:26:16.119 --> 01:26:18.920
Um, and that's not healthy or good.

01:26:19.310 --> 01:26:23.619
And I don't think we should want, if we're, you know, left, right, or whatever.

01:26:24.109 --> 01:26:31.199
Um, I don't understand the argument for wanting that type of thing to be in place.

01:26:31.210 --> 01:26:36.890
I mean, I think small, local, and I would have said five years ago that that would be a far more liberal.

01:26:38.274 --> 01:26:51.015
We've grown up in Colorado with the desire for drug legalization, small CSAs, uh, localized power structure, utilizing solar and local minimum wages, local minimum wages.

01:26:51.034 --> 01:27:05.489
I mean, all sorts of where you, or you look up in steamboat or some of the ski towns where they're saying, guys, you can't buy investment real estate anymore because Our people can't live here and we don't want to employ force people from three hours away to drive up every day at work.

01:27:05.899 --> 01:27:12.479
So it's, it's those sorts of hyper local issues have a million different experiments running around the country.

01:27:13.430 --> 01:27:15.550
Let small mistakes die quickly.

01:27:16.250 --> 01:27:20.260
It's way less expensive to resource the fix.

01:27:20.261 --> 01:27:22.649
I mean, something amazing about America.

01:27:22.649 --> 01:27:25.520
I read, Sowell's economics books.

01:27:26.079 --> 01:27:35.625
Um, Uh, one of the reasons why America has such an incredible, um, resilience and innovation in business is that we can go bankrupt here.

01:27:36.555 --> 01:27:42.194
The society has decided we're going to pay for making fast, quick mistakes.

01:27:42.805 --> 01:27:49.515
And really there's an argument for, except for student loans, except with your federally managed student loans.

01:27:49.515 --> 01:27:53.994
Um, so, so it's like incentivizing fast failure.

01:27:54.505 --> 01:27:55.314
Is a good thing.

01:27:55.324 --> 01:27:55.555
Yeah.

01:27:55.555 --> 01:27:55.895
Yeah.

01:27:56.015 --> 01:28:00.670
So in Japan They or China, they will fund failing businesses.

01:28:00.670 --> 01:28:04.710
It's one reason why China specifically is in big trouble financially, right?

01:28:04.779 --> 01:28:10.779
Because of their Syria, their, their tendency to honor bound, don't lose face.

01:28:10.829 --> 01:28:19.039
You know, there's some great things about that, but one problem is generationally they will fund failing businesses and that they're changing that some.

01:28:19.590 --> 01:28:23.260
Um, but in America you can go bankrupt and start again.

01:28:23.409 --> 01:28:23.770
Totally.

01:28:23.819 --> 01:28:24.880
And there's not a.

01:28:24.980 --> 01:28:31.750
I need to kill myself to not shame my family because I lost generational money.

01:28:33.260 --> 01:28:37.829
People do sad things when they fail, but the system doesn't stigmatize.

01:28:37.831 --> 01:28:39.920
We don't stigmatize in the same way.

01:28:39.920 --> 01:28:44.739
There's a, uh, there's a peer advisor organization, kind of like Loco Think Tank.

01:28:46.015 --> 01:28:53.444
I can't remember the name, but you have to have failed at three businesses and have an existing successful business before you could be a member.

01:28:53.515 --> 01:28:54.074
That's smart.

01:28:54.555 --> 01:28:56.935
You know, there's certainly a big number of people that have been there.

01:28:56.965 --> 01:28:57.545
Oh yeah.

01:28:57.814 --> 01:28:58.435
Oh yeah.

01:28:58.484 --> 01:29:01.675
I mean, you never hear the stories about the failures, but they are every day.

01:29:02.015 --> 01:29:08.414
95 percent of small businesses fail in the first five years and then three quarters of them fail in the second five years.

01:29:09.194 --> 01:29:11.664
So it is, um, there's a ton of failure out there.

01:29:12.364 --> 01:29:17.899
And, um, So, so that's a way that the American economy has grace.

01:29:17.960 --> 01:29:18.270
Yeah, yeah.

01:29:18.270 --> 01:29:19.720
For failures, start again.

01:29:19.760 --> 01:29:20.319
Right.

01:29:20.539 --> 01:29:20.949
I love it.

01:29:20.960 --> 01:29:32.069
Well, and historically, another big advantage of the American model over other countries, especially Europe, which they're struggling with now, is turning people into Americans.

01:29:32.109 --> 01:29:32.350
Yeah.

01:29:33.145 --> 01:29:37.395
You know, you look like you might be an Italian, kind of a background guy, or No?

01:29:37.395 --> 01:29:39.034
Tante grazie, molto gentile.

01:29:39.465 --> 01:29:42.295
Um Were you going back to your roots in Italy?

01:29:42.574 --> 01:29:44.784
No, no, I just went because I had a job.

01:29:44.795 --> 01:29:47.614
But I mean, the Italians came over here in droves during a certain period.

01:29:47.614 --> 01:29:48.904
And then the Irish, right?

01:29:48.904 --> 01:29:49.595
I think I'm German French.

01:29:49.635 --> 01:29:50.005
Okay.

01:29:50.145 --> 01:29:59.380
I think German French, although Uh, I think, uh, I know on my mom's side, we have a full family of First Nations people.

01:29:59.439 --> 01:29:59.819
Oh, really?

01:29:59.819 --> 01:30:00.600
That we've learned about too.

01:30:00.619 --> 01:30:00.819
Oh, cool.

01:30:00.819 --> 01:30:02.239
So I'm trying to learn more about that.

01:30:02.250 --> 01:30:02.869
Yeah, yeah.

01:30:02.909 --> 01:30:03.489
That's neat.

01:30:03.779 --> 01:30:04.319
Um.

01:30:04.340 --> 01:30:05.810
From Canada, obviously.

01:30:06.029 --> 01:30:07.000
That's what they, yeah.

01:30:07.199 --> 01:30:07.609
Yeah, yeah.

01:30:07.609 --> 01:30:08.229
Oh, that's cool.

01:30:08.270 --> 01:30:08.800
Isn't that wild?

01:30:08.859 --> 01:30:10.229
It's, it's neat.

01:30:10.239 --> 01:30:13.119
And only, like, uh, like a great grandparent.

01:30:13.300 --> 01:30:13.689
Right.

01:30:13.699 --> 01:30:14.930
So not too far removed.

01:30:14.979 --> 01:30:15.369
Right.

01:30:15.380 --> 01:30:16.449
So there's an interesting history there.

01:30:16.460 --> 01:30:16.869
Yeah, cool.

01:30:16.890 --> 01:30:17.199
Anyway.

01:30:17.201 --> 01:30:21.600
Yeah, I was hoping to find something like that for my bear family tree and get me some.

01:30:21.949 --> 01:30:24.470
College scholarships or something, I did not find any of that.

01:30:24.970 --> 01:30:28.220
Um, oh, so anyway, on to the, the notion.

01:30:28.220 --> 01:30:40.375
So, and, and most Americans are, descended in some capacity from somebody that came here out of a great need, but also great opportunity.

01:30:40.454 --> 01:30:40.625
Yeah.

01:30:40.625 --> 01:30:40.854
Yeah.

01:30:40.875 --> 01:30:41.215
Right.

01:30:41.215 --> 01:30:50.734
And that's kind of a little bit in line with, with even the, the, whatever, 10 or 15 million new arrivals the last few years, it's both great need and great opportunity.

01:30:50.784 --> 01:30:51.805
No discounting.

01:30:52.465 --> 01:30:59.465
Desperate their lives are that allowed them to leverage everything and pay a cartel 15, 000 to get here.

01:30:59.814 --> 01:31:00.095
Right.

01:31:00.145 --> 01:31:00.734
Or whatever.

01:31:00.954 --> 01:31:01.274
Yeah.

01:31:01.375 --> 01:31:04.784
Um, And not a business model we necessarily want to support.

01:31:05.845 --> 01:31:07.104
Oh, absolutely not.

01:31:08.614 --> 01:31:22.364
And like the, the, the cultural norm now seems to be more like, you should just stay the way you are, uh, Yep, own private universe.

01:31:22.524 --> 01:31:39.435
Yeah, kind of yeah, everybody's your individual you're an individual and if you're a Haitian and you're eating the cats and you're eating the dog So as long as you go down to the shelter and get them for yourself, don't steal them from anybody Then you could be you Or whatever, right?

01:31:39.475 --> 01:31:41.295
Maybe that was doesn't quite that far.

01:31:41.295 --> 01:31:56.185
But but there's no pressure to become an American Yeah right now or at least right now You know, maybe, I don't know, maybe, maybe MAGA 2024 with the Big Tent, uh, is something like that?

01:31:56.225 --> 01:32:03.305
The New York Times had a map showing every county and if it moved left or right as compared to the last election.

01:32:03.824 --> 01:32:11.109
And with the exception of a few counties in the country, every single county, Didn't move less.

01:32:11.109 --> 01:32:11.470
Yes.

01:32:11.470 --> 01:32:12.760
It kind of sat flatt it.

01:32:12.760 --> 01:32:13.449
Yep, yep.

01:32:14.539 --> 01:32:20.630
Um, but yeah, some of those blue counties went from 24 point Biden wins to 12 point Harris.

01:32:20.989 --> 01:32:21.350
Yeah.

01:32:21.949 --> 01:32:23.210
Or 20, yeah.

01:32:23.210 --> 01:32:24.739
To 12 point Harris wins.

01:32:24.890 --> 01:32:25.039
Yeah.

01:32:25.039 --> 01:32:27.350
And it didn't seem be, but their margin of victory went down.

01:32:27.409 --> 01:32:28.159
Um, yeah.

01:32:28.159 --> 01:32:32.720
And it didn't seem, it seemed to be incredibly, um, uh, racially inclusive.

01:32:32.750 --> 01:32:33.829
Mm-hmm Across the voting base.

01:32:33.835 --> 01:32:34.175
For sure.

01:32:34.250 --> 01:32:34.699
For sure.

01:32:34.760 --> 01:32:40.579
So I think that people that are coming to America that want to work hard and have some.

01:32:41.310 --> 01:32:46.529
Individual independence to grow families and do the things they do outcomes.

01:32:46.770 --> 01:32:55.819
I think that, you know, uh, maybe back in the fifties there would have been a religious conservative culture that controlled everything.

01:32:56.810 --> 01:33:03.439
And I think that, that, that, um, religious type control has just, has shifted to a different set of philosophies.

01:33:04.800 --> 01:33:10.729
Um, you know, the, uh, and so I see a bunch of people that don't want to be controlled.

01:33:11.340 --> 01:33:11.770
Right.

01:33:11.939 --> 01:33:12.850
That's who's coming now.

01:33:12.899 --> 01:33:13.369
Yeah.

01:33:13.479 --> 01:33:14.880
So there's no pressure.

01:33:14.890 --> 01:33:27.119
Why would, why would we assume that somebody who's coming from an oppressive or difficult scenario somewhere else wants to come here and encounter something that's hyper controlling and authoritarian?

01:33:27.390 --> 01:33:35.430
And we've got, we have, um, one, two, three, we have five employees.

01:33:35.739 --> 01:33:38.619
that are, um, first generation immigrants to the United States.

01:33:38.659 --> 01:33:39.180
Oh, is that right?

01:33:39.239 --> 01:33:39.529
Yeah.

01:33:39.609 --> 01:33:40.189
Out of 30?

01:33:40.279 --> 01:33:40.640
Yeah.

01:33:40.859 --> 01:33:40.989
Yeah.

01:33:40.989 --> 01:33:41.279
Yeah.

01:33:41.390 --> 01:33:43.119
And, uh, it might be six.

01:33:43.630 --> 01:33:52.699
So I hear from people that five years ago were living in either South America or over in Europe or in the Middle East.

01:33:53.369 --> 01:33:53.859
And.

01:33:54.680 --> 01:33:58.140
see what they came from and then get their read on American politics.

01:33:59.279 --> 01:34:15.510
And, um, they don't like big government and they don't like giving government the tools that can be, um, oppressive one day in a way you like, but then some whack job wins the election and then they're using those same powers against them.

01:34:15.659 --> 01:34:18.789
And I think you're seeing a lot of that telegraphing happening right now.

01:34:19.460 --> 01:34:22.130
There's, Oh my gosh, what is this Trump guy going to do?

01:34:22.524 --> 01:34:37.404
With the legal tools we created to screw with people initially for Obama, because that's what Trump did in his first term a little bit, because he was being in cock blocks so much in the Congress with, you know, uh, impeachments and investigations and this and that.

01:34:37.925 --> 01:34:51.215
But when he by executive action took away the tax deduction of your federal taxes of your state taxes, like that was like a big old middle finger to California, New York with significant financial consequences.

01:34:51.255 --> 01:34:51.494
Yeah.

01:34:52.135 --> 01:34:56.354
Um, but it was only through power that had been afforded to Obama basically.

01:34:56.864 --> 01:34:58.145
Well, and it's, it's interesting.

01:34:58.145 --> 01:35:05.994
The, the, um, I guess the Senate has been talking about eliminating the filibuster for the last four years, which is idiocy in my opinion.

01:35:06.204 --> 01:35:08.885
And, and that makes for a very, very strong.

01:35:09.074 --> 01:35:09.694
President.

01:35:09.875 --> 01:35:10.095
Right.

01:35:10.095 --> 01:35:13.914
If a president and Senate are connected, they, they can do a lot of what they want to do.

01:35:14.024 --> 01:35:14.335
Yeah.

01:35:14.454 --> 01:35:16.244
They have immediately dropped that conversation.

01:35:16.345 --> 01:35:16.694
Right.

01:35:16.694 --> 01:35:16.864
I'm sure.

01:35:16.875 --> 01:35:19.225
They no longer think it's unconstitutional.

01:35:19.225 --> 01:35:23.574
Well, in the, there's, I think there's 16 states that were in the popular vote compact.

01:35:23.604 --> 01:35:23.925
Yeah.

01:35:24.024 --> 01:35:28.814
Where they said if, you know, they just were gonna put all their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote.

01:35:29.244 --> 01:35:29.744
Wow.

01:35:29.805 --> 01:35:30.755
Including California.

01:35:30.774 --> 01:35:36.715
But yeah, they haven't really, They haven't talked about that since the election, since Trump won the popular vote.

01:35:36.944 --> 01:35:38.925
Yeah, that's the other side of the coin.

01:35:38.925 --> 01:35:47.965
If you don't, if you didn't want that guy to win, um, and I would agree with make the government as weak as humanly possible.

01:35:48.635 --> 01:35:54.104
So that it doesn't really matter who gets elected if you don't like them They're not gonna be able to screw up too much, right?

01:35:54.175 --> 01:35:54.574
Right?

01:35:54.755 --> 01:36:01.435
No, I think and make that that's my argument in general as a libertarian kind of make it small So it can't be manipulated so much.

01:36:01.465 --> 01:36:04.784
You know, the main things that needs to do is defense, of course.

01:36:04.814 --> 01:36:14.364
Yep, some Fights between states and things, you know water, you know, California, Arizona, Colorado have a lot to fight about it Absolutely.

01:36:14.505 --> 01:36:21.909
Oh, yeah, for example, and then Monopoly, yeah, trust busting.

01:36:22.020 --> 01:36:28.779
Yeah, you know keep the corporations from the union of government that's strong enough to keep the corporations from Manipulating.

01:36:29.020 --> 01:36:30.159
Yeah for their own accord.

01:36:30.229 --> 01:36:30.850
Absolutely.

01:36:30.890 --> 01:36:35.710
And those are really that's pretty much it I would put I would put international like treaty sign.

01:36:35.720 --> 01:36:36.069
Oh, sure.

01:36:36.069 --> 01:36:37.250
Ocean stuff like that.

01:36:37.590 --> 01:36:37.810
Yeah.

01:36:37.810 --> 01:36:37.930
Yeah.

01:36:38.010 --> 01:36:45.829
Yeah, that's fair Well, and ultimately war to you have to um, I like the small standing army, isn't that nice?

01:36:46.189 --> 01:36:48.069
How many military bases should we have?

01:36:48.070 --> 01:36:50.100
You How many do we have right now?

01:36:50.100 --> 01:36:50.439
Do you know?

01:36:50.779 --> 01:36:52.949
I don't know how many, but I think it's hundreds.

01:36:52.989 --> 01:36:54.180
I think it's like 185.

01:36:54.489 --> 01:36:54.569
Woo.

01:36:56.289 --> 01:36:58.149
Almost as many as there are nations.

01:36:58.420 --> 01:37:04.609
The thing that I, that I don't know what to think about with that stuff, Kurt, is I don't, I don't get the daily briefing, right?

01:37:04.720 --> 01:37:06.460
Like, I don't know how fricking scary.

01:37:06.470 --> 01:37:09.189
Before Somali pirates actually take that shit over.

01:37:09.250 --> 01:37:09.810
Yes.

01:37:09.979 --> 01:37:10.869
Uh, agreed.

01:37:10.939 --> 01:37:11.310
Yeah.

01:37:11.579 --> 01:37:18.100
So it's like, and you look at all of the old great empires, they built incredible armies.

01:37:19.024 --> 01:37:20.725
They overextended themselves.

01:37:21.215 --> 01:37:23.994
They started to pay mercenaries to fight for them.

01:37:24.914 --> 01:37:29.645
And when you've got to depend on, on mercenary, that's like, you're just, you're on the Ukrainians.

01:37:31.479 --> 01:37:35.739
Like the Ukrainians ish, the Germanic tribes.

01:37:35.739 --> 01:37:41.510
If you're Rome, you start paying other people to do your work and you offload that responsibility.

01:37:41.569 --> 01:37:46.489
You start believing you can get away with some pretty nasty things because you don't have to see what you're doing every day.

01:37:46.890 --> 01:37:48.880
And that goes not just for warfare.

01:37:48.920 --> 01:37:54.595
I think that goes for how we create our energy, Yeah, yeah.

01:37:54.625 --> 01:37:57.725
Where we get our clothes, where we get our minerals and our cell phones.

01:37:57.734 --> 01:38:03.034
And we get away with a lot of bullshit because we're not having to kill and butcher the animal themselves.

01:38:04.204 --> 01:38:08.574
And, um, that's another argument for a bit of poverty.

01:38:08.704 --> 01:38:22.125
Um, if, if not financially of spirit and, um, we would, we would all make, I think, more conservative decisions if we were having to make the life and death decision.

01:38:23.185 --> 01:38:25.715
And so I think we're just, I think even of our food.

01:38:25.895 --> 01:38:26.854
Oh, absolutely.

01:38:28.614 --> 01:38:39.375
And, and there's the problem of how you S how you feed 8 billion people without some automation that, that, I don't understand, and we want to keep that in place.

01:38:39.375 --> 01:38:46.064
I've got an amazing uh, chicken ranch in my backyard, and it's a long ways away from creating enough protein for me and my family.

01:38:46.064 --> 01:38:49.545
You know, and a lot of garden beds and stuff like that, a quarter acre roughly.

01:38:50.364 --> 01:38:58.609
Well, only, I mean, I've probably got, I would say got a thousand square feet under cultivation, maybe, you know, ish.

01:38:58.640 --> 01:39:03.920
And then, you know, maybe about that much square footage dedicated to the chicken operations.

01:39:03.989 --> 01:39:04.500
That's awesome.

01:39:04.770 --> 01:39:11.020
Um, but that leaves a lot of space, you know, but, but the city won't let me have 200 chickens back there.

01:39:11.060 --> 01:39:11.930
Probably for good reason.

01:39:12.319 --> 01:39:14.550
We kept chickens for quite a while and loved it.

01:39:14.659 --> 01:39:15.760
Kids took care of them.

01:39:15.960 --> 01:39:17.090
We eat a lot of eggs.

01:39:17.159 --> 01:39:17.329
Yeah.

01:39:17.329 --> 01:39:17.520
Yeah.

01:39:17.529 --> 01:39:17.869
That's great.

01:39:17.869 --> 01:39:18.619
Oh, they're the best.

01:39:18.670 --> 01:39:18.850
Yeah.

01:39:18.850 --> 01:39:19.369
Oh man.

01:39:19.489 --> 01:39:19.859
Um.

01:39:20.479 --> 01:39:21.289
Anyway, I digress.

01:39:21.289 --> 01:39:21.640
It's so good.

01:39:21.670 --> 01:39:23.369
But it, but it's impossible, really.

01:39:23.390 --> 01:39:30.699
Like, you really need some kind of productive I'm a big If you are very strong, you're gonna avoid a bunch of war.

01:39:31.029 --> 01:39:31.579
Yes.

01:39:31.739 --> 01:39:36.109
And, and, I mean, this does get into a bit of my wheelhouse.

01:39:36.659 --> 01:39:38.939
Um, historically speaking.

01:39:39.449 --> 01:39:44.265
Um, the more decisively you fight a conflict The fewer people die.

01:39:45.295 --> 01:39:54.654
And, um, we're a little bit more about dragging, which is kind of what, well, yeah, because it makes so much money for all the companies that build the bombs and stuff.

01:39:54.704 --> 01:39:55.524
It does that.

01:39:55.604 --> 01:40:01.225
And I think the emotional salience in diplomacy is well, and that's why Israel's in a tough spot.

01:40:01.234 --> 01:40:03.864
Cause Israel's like, we're just going to take care of business fuckers.

01:40:03.925 --> 01:40:04.305
Yeah.

01:40:04.364 --> 01:40:06.935
Kind of, that's pretty, was that the most brilliant?

01:40:07.510 --> 01:40:10.390
Uh, the, the pager bomb thing.

01:40:10.399 --> 01:40:16.930
Was that the most brilliant piece of warfare that you've ever seen in, or even virtually read about?

01:40:16.989 --> 01:40:22.359
It's the most targeted, uh, uh, attack in history.

01:40:22.449 --> 01:40:22.989
For sure.

01:40:23.500 --> 01:40:24.180
In history.

01:40:24.789 --> 01:40:25.600
A hundred percent.

01:40:25.750 --> 01:40:25.989
Yeah.

01:40:25.989 --> 01:40:30.829
And they had to build a certain type of pager and get them into the distribution network.

01:40:31.395 --> 01:40:32.824
Three, four years in advance.

01:40:32.835 --> 01:40:34.015
I mean, that's extraordinary.

01:40:34.045 --> 01:40:35.744
Two years in advance.

01:40:36.125 --> 01:40:42.225
Probably like get it into the supply chain without the supply chain actually knowing it.

01:40:42.295 --> 01:40:43.095
Yes.

01:40:43.414 --> 01:40:44.864
It's crazy.

01:40:45.715 --> 01:40:46.545
That's crazy.

01:40:46.614 --> 01:40:46.914
Yes.

01:40:46.925 --> 01:40:50.244
And I think, I mean, I think Massad's got people in the Iranian government.

01:40:50.744 --> 01:40:53.524
They've had people in each of these governments selling out.

01:40:53.525 --> 01:40:56.685
Do you think there's Massad in the American government?

01:40:57.204 --> 01:40:57.835
Oh, I'm sure.

01:40:59.145 --> 01:40:59.765
Of course, I'm kidding.

01:40:59.774 --> 01:41:00.244
Oh, good.

01:41:00.255 --> 01:41:00.324
I'm teasing.

01:41:00.326 --> 01:41:02.944
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's.

01:41:02.944 --> 01:41:03.984
I mean, I, whatever.

01:41:04.055 --> 01:41:06.265
Hopefully, we've got some people in their government.

01:41:06.305 --> 01:41:07.175
It's wild.

01:41:07.694 --> 01:41:09.055
I'm sure it's all happening.

01:41:09.324 --> 01:41:19.154
You know, we got, uh, my, my wife and family, like three out of the five of us got robbed by gypsies on the train in Rome, uh, back in the day when we were visiting over there.

01:41:19.185 --> 01:41:19.545
Yeah.

01:41:19.545 --> 01:41:34.085
And it, you know, it felt a little bit like being raped, uh, and a little bit like, you Damn, you got skills! Like, how did the two of you Did they pickpocket you guys, or did they A couple came through the train, got on in one stop, off in the next stop.

01:41:34.085 --> 01:41:37.444
They were rude and chubby, and she was really pretty.

01:41:38.095 --> 01:41:41.734
And all of her pockets were empty, virtually, after they made their way through the train, rudely.

01:41:42.015 --> 01:41:42.944
That's amazing.

01:41:42.965 --> 01:41:44.284
It was incredible.

01:41:45.604 --> 01:41:49.795
And, yeah, you know, and Israel's kind of like that too.

01:41:50.274 --> 01:42:08.194
Their influence, uh, and their, uh, intelligence about the way of the world, and, and, you know, that's part of, like, people hated Bill Clinton, um, uh, because, like, he, you know, got away with it.

01:42:08.664 --> 01:42:10.055
So much stuff.

01:42:10.364 --> 01:42:12.534
It just was kind of schmoozy and stuff like that.

01:42:12.534 --> 01:42:14.345
And, and it was mostly jealousy.

01:42:14.345 --> 01:42:17.185
The Republicans were like, well, how do we get away with so much stuff?

01:42:17.435 --> 01:42:19.484
How do we enrich ourselves properly?

01:42:19.965 --> 01:42:23.475
Get blowjobs at the freaking white house, you know, without getting impeached.

01:42:23.914 --> 01:42:25.364
All these things, right.

01:42:25.395 --> 01:42:25.795
Yeah.

01:42:25.914 --> 01:42:27.685
And it's kind of the same with Israel.

01:42:27.685 --> 01:42:35.234
That's part of why people hate the Jews is because they're just kind of better at being humans in some ways.

01:42:35.640 --> 01:42:38.439
you know, the, the, the amount of wealth that they have.

01:42:38.899 --> 01:42:48.439
And, and really the, like the Japanese, not in Japan, kind of the same, so much more successful than white people in America.

01:42:48.670 --> 01:42:48.890
Yeah.

01:42:48.989 --> 01:42:55.229
I think that, like, um, I was reading that, uh, young women that immigrate from Nigeria are crushing it.

01:42:55.329 --> 01:42:55.670
Right.

01:42:56.270 --> 01:43:00.579
Um, people that are from, uh, Asia, India crushing it.

01:43:01.239 --> 01:43:05.449
Um, yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I think a ton of it is mindset.

01:43:06.364 --> 01:43:09.354
I'm sure it's coincidence because we're a very racist nation.

01:43:10.675 --> 01:43:14.085
The most generous, uh, Immigratory nation in the world.

01:43:15.324 --> 01:43:15.595
Yeah.

01:43:15.744 --> 01:43:16.984
You know, absolutely.

01:43:19.060 --> 01:43:22.430
We've gone on a nice scroll chase in the politics segment.

01:43:22.430 --> 01:43:24.640
Anything else you, uh, care to comment on?

01:43:24.840 --> 01:43:26.869
We haven't really talked about the election in general.

01:43:26.869 --> 01:43:28.989
Would you like to commentate?

01:43:29.270 --> 01:43:36.149
I mean, I think, again, I'm a, from the business discussion, I'm a bit of a disruptor and a bit of a change person.

01:43:36.390 --> 01:43:43.899
I temperamentally lean in the direction of, um, things need to go through a fall.

01:43:44.670 --> 01:43:45.899
And a spring, right?

01:43:45.899 --> 01:43:46.970
You gotta have fall, winter, spring.

01:43:46.970 --> 01:43:48.039
Rather than have a break.

01:43:48.130 --> 01:43:53.399
Just bailouts of the auto industry in 2008, you would have been opposed to?

01:43:53.729 --> 01:43:54.720
Yeah, yeah.

01:43:54.739 --> 01:43:55.359
The banks?

01:43:55.609 --> 01:44:03.449
Yeah, and like, you know that the, I mean it was reported the banks were taken in and just said, You are going to accept this money or you're gonna be shut down.

01:44:04.255 --> 01:44:07.045
Cause a couple of banks said, no, we don't want to do this.

01:44:07.274 --> 01:44:10.064
Ford auto company didn't accept my money.

01:44:10.145 --> 01:44:13.795
And so, um, I, you know, vowed at that point that I would never buy a Chevy.

01:44:14.435 --> 01:44:16.765
Um, yeah, I'm proud of them.

01:44:17.274 --> 01:44:19.204
You know, that's, that's a good thing.

01:44:19.734 --> 01:44:27.475
Um, yeah, I think the more that you delay a reckoning or a correction, the larger and more artificial you make it.

01:44:27.895 --> 01:44:29.645
So we don't tend the forests.

01:44:29.645 --> 01:44:30.984
We have really bad forest fires.

01:44:31.685 --> 01:44:33.864
Um, so you think we're do that now?

01:44:33.965 --> 01:44:34.595
Yeah, I mean.

01:44:36.180 --> 01:44:37.659
I think that's always happening.

01:44:37.770 --> 01:44:38.199
Sure.

01:44:38.310 --> 01:44:38.890
Everywhere.

01:44:39.319 --> 01:44:52.430
We're things are, things are always aging, delay the record and corrupting a bit and trying to delay a little bit of pain every day and see if one can put it off or shift it onto another person or another, you know, whatever.

01:44:52.970 --> 01:44:56.300
Um, and you, you know, you can only outrun that for so long.

01:44:56.420 --> 01:44:56.729
Yeah.

01:44:57.789 --> 01:45:00.340
Um, so I like.

01:45:00.405 --> 01:45:03.595
So like the RFK guy.

01:45:03.875 --> 01:45:04.274
Yeah, yeah.

01:45:04.395 --> 01:45:05.664
Environmental attorney.

01:45:05.704 --> 01:45:08.135
Seems to have done some really cool things for the environment.

01:45:08.204 --> 01:45:09.824
Were you on an RFK train before?

01:45:09.914 --> 01:45:15.354
I read through a bunch of his positions and I was like, I kind of like the revivification.

01:45:15.595 --> 01:45:15.824
Yeah.

01:45:15.895 --> 01:45:22.024
I like, um, someone saying things like, I will never force you or your family to do something medically.

01:45:24.194 --> 01:45:26.854
Yeah, were you a COVID dissident?

01:45:27.255 --> 01:45:30.854
Um, yeah, again, disagreeable and I like to be outside.

01:45:30.904 --> 01:45:31.225
Yeah, yeah.

01:45:31.274 --> 01:45:33.864
So we didn't really do anything.

01:45:34.055 --> 01:45:38.395
The first few weeks, you know, we're like cleaning off the packages and what the hell is going on.

01:45:38.395 --> 01:45:40.585
And, you know, no one really knew what was going on.

01:45:40.635 --> 01:45:40.895
Yeah.

01:45:41.095 --> 01:45:50.680
And, um, sometime early, you know, a couple of months in was sort of like, This is, this is rough, but not what we thought it is.

01:45:51.069 --> 01:45:53.840
And the things that the government and, and what not.

01:45:54.039 --> 01:46:00.239
And I, I kind of like, I thought the governor did a good job in Colorado of not being an attention suck.

01:46:00.829 --> 01:46:04.710
Uh, wasn't out virtue signaling about all the stuff he was doing.

01:46:05.000 --> 01:46:08.859
So there's some, there's some things that I would have been more lax with, right?

01:46:08.869 --> 01:46:11.989
If I were in charge and had the stones to do something like that.

01:46:12.600 --> 01:46:13.029
Right.

01:46:13.079 --> 01:46:15.640
But I didn't have a huge disagreement with Colorado.

01:46:15.659 --> 01:46:16.060
Okay.

01:46:16.140 --> 01:46:17.260
I could go outside.

01:46:17.479 --> 01:46:18.500
I didn't wear masks.

01:46:18.500 --> 01:46:20.539
Nobody messed with us, our school.

01:46:20.899 --> 01:46:24.920
Uh, sent home medical waivers for masks the day that the county said that.

01:46:24.930 --> 01:46:25.789
Oh, which school is that?

01:46:26.140 --> 01:46:26.909
Liberty Common.

01:46:27.060 --> 01:46:29.189
Yeah, well that was uncommon.

01:46:29.770 --> 01:46:32.619
Yeah, you had to be in Weld County to get a little, a little more of that.

01:46:32.619 --> 01:46:33.470
Otherwise, yeah.

01:46:33.520 --> 01:46:36.390
So our, our kids were, you know, just running around.

01:46:36.550 --> 01:46:43.420
Um, but, uh, yeah, I'm not into being an experiment for pharm, pharmaceutical companies.

01:46:44.090 --> 01:46:45.760
And whether this thing.

01:46:45.770 --> 01:46:46.489
That was what I said.

01:46:46.500 --> 01:46:51.310
I was like, Well, if we're gonna, like, fast track this thing Oh, yeah.

01:46:51.319 --> 01:46:55.829
Which is like the first of its kind, like, genetic manipulation tool Yeah.

01:46:56.350 --> 01:46:57.920
Then everything should be fast tracked.

01:46:57.949 --> 01:47:06.909
Like I've heard the argument that you should just get rid of the FDA for drug approvals and just, uh, allow for some liability and, you know, take what it may.

01:47:07.970 --> 01:47:14.114
Well, I mean, it was weird to me how pharmaceutical companies are known to be some of the most cost effective.

01:47:14.614 --> 01:47:31.814
Openly corrupt country companies in the world like 40 billion dollars in fraud fines and charges over the last 10 years Oh, yeah, it's crazy some 25 or 30 percent of FDA drugs that are approved get pulled from the market because they're killing people Really?

01:47:31.965 --> 01:47:36.904
Yes So it's it's all of that stuff like five years ago.

01:47:36.904 --> 01:47:42.675
Yeah everyone agreed with, you know, Sackler family killed hundreds of thousands of people with opiates.

01:47:42.685 --> 01:47:46.765
Like these people make some great things and they're not your friends.

01:47:46.774 --> 01:47:47.114
Right.

01:47:47.335 --> 01:47:52.385
So, um, at the time we just thought, we don't know if this is going to work out or not.

01:47:52.664 --> 01:47:54.164
So let's give it a year or two.

01:47:54.835 --> 01:48:02.305
And you know, a year or two later it was like, not safe, not effective, has to be dosed many times to prevent.

01:48:05.220 --> 01:48:06.340
you can give it to others.

01:48:06.380 --> 01:48:07.569
You can get it from others.

01:48:07.890 --> 01:48:27.475
Probably not and for quite a while, if you got sick with COVID within two weeks of getting the vaccine, then you were considered unvaccinated and counted in the unvaccinated numbers, even though there's a lot of evidence to suggest that you're, you're not Resistance to COVID went down a ton in the first 10 days after taking the vaccine.

01:48:27.484 --> 01:48:28.854
Yeah, you took a big spike.

01:48:29.595 --> 01:48:31.768
And if you got COVID, they pulled that off the list.

01:48:31.768 --> 01:48:32.913
What kind of coaching is that?

01:48:32.913 --> 01:48:35.414
It's like, you're unvaccinated, you got sick with COVID.

01:48:35.414 --> 01:48:41.625
It's like, well, I got sick with COVID because I got the vaccination and it weakened my immune system for a few days and then I got it.

01:48:41.685 --> 01:48:42.135
Isn't that wild?

01:48:42.435 --> 01:48:48.375
Imagine, imagine that you were, um, imagining, imagine you just had any other health condition.

01:48:48.694 --> 01:48:48.925
Right.

01:48:48.925 --> 01:48:51.454
And the doctor came to you and said, well, we can give you this drug.

01:48:51.595 --> 01:48:56.494
Now for two weeks, you're going to have dark suicidal thoughts and you might kill yourself.

01:48:57.395 --> 01:49:03.104
But in two weeks, this will start to work and whatever will happen, you'd never do something like that.

01:49:03.114 --> 01:49:05.005
Well, it was an odd, weird time to me.

01:49:05.034 --> 01:49:12.585
Me and you were like mid fringe cases in some ways where we were, you know, I'm 50 now, you're probably 40.

01:49:13.399 --> 01:49:14.560
47 next month, baby.

01:49:14.560 --> 01:49:15.970
Damn, you look a lot better than me.

01:49:17.060 --> 01:49:21.029
Um, but either way, we were kind of mid range.

01:49:21.329 --> 01:49:32.670
But the, the 5, 10, 15 year old children, 20 year old boys with like super duper immune systems that just took that shit and turned it into myocarditis.

01:49:33.800 --> 01:49:34.850
Dude, crazy.

01:49:35.090 --> 01:49:38.350
And were mandating it so they can go to school?

01:49:38.409 --> 01:49:38.770
Yeah.

01:49:39.010 --> 01:49:39.220
That's insane.

01:49:39.229 --> 01:49:40.949
That was just loony bins.

01:49:41.000 --> 01:49:42.630
Like they had no risk.

01:49:44.170 --> 01:49:45.050
Like, I just don't know.

01:49:45.970 --> 01:49:47.619
Or in healthcare providers.

01:49:47.649 --> 01:49:48.159
It was dark.

01:49:48.159 --> 01:49:49.239
That had already been sick.

01:49:49.300 --> 01:49:50.710
Dude, that was so dark.

01:49:50.770 --> 01:49:51.340
That was the worst.

01:49:51.340 --> 01:49:52.989
Military, military.

01:49:52.989 --> 01:49:56.289
I just, I just think you get in a really bad spot if you start telling people what to.

01:49:56.350 --> 01:49:56.529
Yeah.

01:49:56.529 --> 01:49:57.880
You can't make people do stuff.

01:49:58.260 --> 01:50:01.260
Um, I'll send you my blog, uh, from a few years ago.

01:50:01.260 --> 01:50:02.760
The Makers Marks, I'd love it.

01:50:02.880 --> 01:50:06.210
The difference between the makers that actually make things.

01:50:06.239 --> 01:50:06.510
Yeah.

01:50:06.779 --> 01:50:07.979
And the makers that are like.

01:50:08.204 --> 01:50:08.984
You do this?

01:50:09.015 --> 01:50:09.104
Yeah.

01:50:09.104 --> 01:50:11.864
I'm gonna make, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna make you Yeah.

01:50:11.864 --> 01:50:16.635
It's that, it's that diffuse leaves a mark or distributed responsibility thing that I think screws stuff up.

01:50:16.635 --> 01:50:16.725
Yeah.

01:50:16.784 --> 01:50:20.744
Do you have individual power to create and make a difference in your world and be the change?

01:50:20.805 --> 01:50:21.104
Yeah.

01:50:21.454 --> 01:50:24.515
Or, uh, are you gonna be restricted from doing that?

01:50:25.185 --> 01:50:25.454
Alright.

01:50:26.270 --> 01:50:26.810
One more thing.

01:50:27.020 --> 01:50:27.529
No, go for it.

01:50:28.329 --> 01:50:29.920
So that was politics, I think.

01:50:29.970 --> 01:50:30.630
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:50:30.909 --> 01:50:31.149
I love it.

01:50:31.149 --> 01:50:32.439
Faith or family next?

01:50:33.000 --> 01:50:33.560
You pick.

01:50:34.479 --> 01:50:35.250
Let's do faith.

01:50:36.060 --> 01:50:36.449
Yeah.

01:50:36.449 --> 01:50:40.380
So I, um, I grew up in a Christian Protestant family.

01:50:40.560 --> 01:50:40.890
Okay.

01:50:41.409 --> 01:50:42.399
And, um.

01:50:42.409 --> 01:50:43.229
A non label?

01:50:43.289 --> 01:50:44.489
A non denominational?

01:50:44.670 --> 01:50:44.939
Yeah.

01:50:45.199 --> 01:50:46.670
So Presbyterian.

01:50:46.710 --> 01:50:47.029
Okay.

01:50:47.109 --> 01:50:47.420
Yep.

01:50:47.510 --> 01:50:51.220
That's as close to as, like, our church is kind of non denominational.

01:50:51.239 --> 01:50:51.520
Yeah.

01:50:51.520 --> 01:50:51.539
Yeah.

01:50:51.539 --> 01:50:51.569
But.

01:50:52.250 --> 01:50:54.289
And I went on now light.

01:50:54.380 --> 01:50:54.649
Yep.

01:50:54.859 --> 01:51:01.489
Um, uh, and yeah, so grew up in that community, uh, and especially in the south.

01:51:01.609 --> 01:51:04.369
Pretty conservative, pretty rigid.

01:51:04.550 --> 01:51:04.609
Yeah.

01:51:04.609 --> 01:51:07.789
Because till I was 11, I was in, in, uh, Nashville, Tennessee.

01:51:07.850 --> 01:51:08.359
Right, right.

01:51:08.659 --> 01:51:09.260
Um.

01:51:09.715 --> 01:51:12.715
So there's Presbyterians there too, not just Baptists.

01:51:12.885 --> 01:51:13.774
They've got Baptists.

01:51:13.805 --> 01:51:17.635
I would think the Presbyterians are perceived as kind of loose compared to the Baptists.

01:51:17.935 --> 01:51:18.925
You know, it depends.

01:51:18.984 --> 01:51:19.295
Okay.

01:51:19.414 --> 01:51:21.524
I think you've got your free will Baptists.

01:51:21.694 --> 01:51:24.675
You know, there's a lot of how strict you get there.

01:51:24.685 --> 01:51:25.074
Yeah, yeah.

01:51:25.319 --> 01:51:27.989
Just like the Lucerans, they got a left and a right fringe kind of thing.

01:51:28.090 --> 01:51:33.119
And you've got an Orthodox Presbyterian, and then, I mean, there's all so many flavors.

01:51:33.189 --> 01:51:35.140
Protestantism is so fractured, right?

01:51:35.159 --> 01:51:40.109
So, was that, like, you got raised a Christian, you stayed that way?

01:51:40.109 --> 01:51:43.635
Was there a journey of discovery for you along in that?

01:51:43.635 --> 01:51:48.979
Yeah, I've stayed, um, a believer in God and in Jesus.

01:51:49.859 --> 01:51:56.050
Um, and then I think that's changed and evolved a bunch too.

01:51:56.659 --> 01:52:10.375
Um, and so, so, I really, I mean we had, you know, a few, Hard times in in our lives.

01:52:10.375 --> 01:52:14.965
And so there have been times where I've been probably a lot less vocal and a lot more doubtful Okay.

01:52:15.125 --> 01:52:16.835
Yeah 13 years ago.

01:52:16.835 --> 01:52:19.045
One of our kids passed away and one of our kids died.

01:52:19.045 --> 01:52:25.515
Sorry, and so that's a rough time So you think about you know, why would God do this?

01:52:25.585 --> 01:52:27.795
Oh, yeah, you know, how does loving God?

01:52:29.265 --> 01:52:43.029
Right, and then I went through a period of just feeling like I wasn't gonna Um, you know, this isn't a subject I understand, and so I'm just not gonna say a whole lot about it, um, until I feel like I can honestly Yeah.

01:52:43.159 --> 01:52:43.789
Talk about what happened.

01:52:43.989 --> 01:52:44.289
Yeah.

01:52:44.380 --> 01:52:46.489
So there was a long period of time where I didn't go to church.

01:52:46.600 --> 01:52:46.960
Okay.

01:52:47.239 --> 01:52:48.220
Wouldn't pray.

01:52:48.949 --> 01:52:49.149
Yeah.

01:52:49.149 --> 01:52:49.760
And things like that.

01:52:49.760 --> 01:52:52.380
Didn't actively renounce your faith.

01:52:52.640 --> 01:52:53.260
No.

01:52:53.340 --> 01:52:56.130
Also didn't really express it in any meaningful way.

01:52:56.180 --> 01:52:56.680
Yeah.

01:52:56.750 --> 01:52:57.250
Yeah.

01:52:57.300 --> 01:53:03.930
I'm pretty, I've remained very convinced that, um, that I think something made the world.

01:53:03.930 --> 01:53:04.409
Sure.

01:53:05.069 --> 01:53:09.250
And, um, and that there's some type of, uh, creative.

01:53:09.260 --> 01:53:10.989
There's a prime mover, certainly.

01:53:10.989 --> 01:53:11.310
Yeah.

01:53:11.689 --> 01:53:12.949
So that didn't go away.

01:53:12.979 --> 01:53:13.489
Yeah, yeah.

01:53:13.659 --> 01:53:20.869
Uh, but I've definitely gone through periods of time where whatever that thing is probably is either indifferent or angry at me.

01:53:21.550 --> 01:53:21.899
Yeah.

01:53:21.900 --> 01:53:23.670
And so, work hard, keep your head down.

01:53:23.671 --> 01:53:24.279
Yeah, yeah.

01:53:24.329 --> 01:53:26.409
And, um, some of, so.

01:53:26.729 --> 01:53:36.149
Well, and then, like, when it comes to, like, grace, though, and forgiveness, and self examination, like I'm sure you've probably done a lot of terrible things in your life.

01:53:36.550 --> 01:53:37.930
Yeah, I've had my share.

01:53:37.939 --> 01:53:38.420
Yeah, yeah.

01:53:38.470 --> 01:53:41.319
I mean, probably less than me, you know, because I'm three years older.

01:53:45.659 --> 01:53:49.130
But like, what do you do with that if you don't give yourself some grace, I think?

01:53:49.239 --> 01:53:50.689
And also forgiveness of others.

01:53:50.880 --> 01:53:58.560
Also, I think those two things are pivotal, you know, part of the lubricant of society that's dried up.

01:53:59.005 --> 01:54:09.475
I suppose along with trust in, in our American, I mean, gosh, I wonder what would happen in American commerce if trust could be re magnified again.

01:54:10.194 --> 01:54:12.645
Oh man, I mean, if you think about eBay.

01:54:13.149 --> 01:54:13.270
Right.

01:54:13.279 --> 01:54:16.770
Have you thought about, uh, there's the story about eBay when they first started.

01:54:16.850 --> 01:54:17.170
Yeah.

01:54:17.199 --> 01:54:25.479
So eBay is one stranger on one side of the world shows you a product that you believe that it is what it is and that it's worth what you're going to pay for it.

01:54:25.510 --> 01:54:27.310
And then they believe you're going to send them the money.

01:54:27.510 --> 01:54:27.850
Right.

01:54:28.319 --> 01:54:30.619
And when eBay started, they set up a whole.

01:54:31.074 --> 01:54:39.074
Uh, escrow account, and verification third party structure to protect people's product sales and money.

01:54:39.154 --> 01:54:44.534
And what they found is they shut it down very early on in the process because they never needed it.

01:54:44.534 --> 01:54:49.274
There is something inherently trustful about American culture.

01:54:49.845 --> 01:54:53.664
You deal with people expecting not to get screwed most of the time.

01:54:54.600 --> 01:54:56.159
Um, and it is a powerful thing.

01:54:56.159 --> 01:54:57.560
Well, it was super powerful.

01:54:57.569 --> 01:55:19.100
And I think that's part of why Musk is such the champion over free speech and free commerce that he's become because he was there in those days of PayPal and eBay and the establishment of a global community that talk to each other, you know, ask questions about the eBay item, but still lived and revolved around this trust.

01:55:19.140 --> 01:55:24.939
And I think, you know, the combativeness, you know, and I don't, I don't know.

01:55:25.529 --> 01:55:27.869
Um, I've never been a real big Trump fan.

01:55:28.260 --> 01:55:30.390
This is the first time I voted for him in this past election.

01:55:30.390 --> 01:55:34.399
I voted Gary Johnson and Kanye West, uh, previously.

01:55:35.619 --> 01:55:39.770
But you know, the coalition, frankly, that Trump, well, it was the protest vote.

01:55:40.310 --> 01:55:44.949
It was like, seriously, the system is actually going to give us Trump and Biden.

01:55:45.050 --> 01:55:45.350
Yeah.

01:55:45.430 --> 01:55:45.890
Come on.

01:55:46.619 --> 01:55:47.270
Give me a break.

01:55:47.300 --> 01:55:48.359
It's pretty wacky.

01:55:48.409 --> 01:55:48.800
Yeah.

01:55:48.970 --> 01:55:50.390
And we deserve it.

01:55:50.640 --> 01:55:51.149
I guess.

01:55:51.189 --> 01:55:51.449
Yeah.

01:55:51.489 --> 01:55:52.869
We deserve what we get in some ways.

01:55:52.869 --> 01:55:53.189
But anyway.

01:55:53.279 --> 01:55:53.619
So.

01:55:54.250 --> 01:55:56.489
Where was my trail going there?

01:55:56.500 --> 01:56:07.640
It was related to, oh, so I think that's where Elon Musk kind of comes from is that kind of, no, we need to have open communications, open commerce, open platforms.

01:56:07.670 --> 01:56:16.369
If people are being bad, we need to community note them, you know, and that's the way that we develop a thriving trust based world.

01:56:16.739 --> 01:56:22.619
Because if the rest of the world could start to develop trust like America's thrived upon, Yeah.

01:56:23.055 --> 01:56:24.215
It would be easier.

01:56:24.345 --> 01:56:24.685
Oh yeah.

01:56:24.685 --> 01:56:29.015
You know, and that all comes from rule of law, property rights, all those beautiful things.

01:56:29.154 --> 01:56:29.845
Oh yeah.

01:56:30.055 --> 01:56:30.614
Oh yeah.

01:56:30.904 --> 01:56:40.175
So, so in your faith journey you've kind of started coming back to church again and, like, refocused or Yeah, it was really lovely.

01:56:40.215 --> 01:56:46.925
Probably in 2017, um, my, my wife said, um, You've had some time.

01:56:47.414 --> 01:56:49.965
I think you should start thinking about taking us to church again.

01:56:50.659 --> 01:56:51.010
Okay.

01:56:51.010 --> 01:56:52.090
And she'd been going, right?

01:56:52.149 --> 01:56:53.180
And, and our kids have been going.

01:56:53.189 --> 01:56:56.789
Regularly or occasionally, but less because dad wasn't going.

01:56:56.829 --> 01:56:57.300
Yeah.

01:56:57.420 --> 01:57:04.300
And so that was, um, I mean, I think, uh, uh, you know, our kids are so lucky to have their mother.

01:57:04.500 --> 01:57:04.859
Yeah.

01:57:04.880 --> 01:57:05.600
For sure.

01:57:06.359 --> 01:57:06.800
Um.

01:57:07.449 --> 01:57:09.140
And so we started going again.

01:57:09.149 --> 01:57:11.310
We were in Dallas for a year, opening our office.

01:57:11.310 --> 01:57:13.970
So we started going to an Anglican church down the road.

01:57:13.970 --> 01:57:16.109
Oh, that's another whole business chapter that we actually talked about.

01:57:16.109 --> 01:57:26.000
That was, uh, we left out, but, uh, next time we'll talk more ancient history, um, and more giant disasters.

01:57:26.130 --> 01:57:26.520
I love it.

01:57:26.550 --> 01:57:27.760
Uh, next time you come back.

01:57:27.829 --> 01:57:32.569
Yeah, we could do, we could do several podcasts on the giant disasters I've been a part of.

01:57:33.109 --> 01:57:35.039
I've only been a part of small disasters.

01:57:35.539 --> 01:57:36.210
So.

01:57:36.835 --> 01:57:39.074
Where did we, how did we bump against that?

01:57:39.185 --> 01:57:41.954
Um, uh, we started going to an Anglican church.

01:57:41.965 --> 01:57:42.305
Okay.

01:57:42.465 --> 01:57:42.805
Yeah, yeah.

01:57:42.805 --> 01:57:45.114
It was a, you know, within a mile, that was great.

01:57:45.125 --> 01:57:50.444
And I like the part of the liturgy that I like is that, uh, no one really cares who the pastor is.

01:57:51.095 --> 01:57:53.154
And, uh, there's something kind of nice about that.

01:57:53.414 --> 01:57:57.524
Anyone could get up and, Oh, is that right?

01:57:57.654 --> 01:57:57.944
Yeah.

01:57:58.015 --> 01:57:59.024
Oh, that's crazy.

01:57:59.085 --> 01:57:59.255
Yeah.

01:57:59.255 --> 01:58:01.345
I mean, someone could just get up and read it through.

01:58:01.345 --> 01:58:01.984
Somebody's sick.

01:58:02.055 --> 01:58:02.475
Awesome.

01:58:02.524 --> 01:58:03.034
Here we go.

01:58:03.164 --> 01:58:04.435
Oh, that's interesting.

01:58:04.435 --> 01:58:10.354
So I, I like the, what I like about that is every, it's like every Anglican church is all doing the same thing every week.

01:58:10.364 --> 01:58:10.595
Yeah.

01:58:10.595 --> 01:58:11.095
Almost.

01:58:11.314 --> 01:58:12.015
Oh, is that right?

01:58:12.015 --> 01:58:12.154
Yeah.

01:58:12.175 --> 01:58:14.465
Catholic mass, Anglicans do this.

01:58:14.515 --> 01:58:15.375
Oh, is that right?

01:58:15.375 --> 01:58:18.805
Greek Orthodox church is going to have a historic liturgy that it works through.

01:58:18.805 --> 01:58:19.614
Oh, interesting.

01:58:19.845 --> 01:58:21.045
And so there's a.

01:58:21.699 --> 01:58:24.260
And there are pros and cons to all of these models.

01:58:24.279 --> 01:58:24.800
Yeah.

01:58:24.829 --> 01:58:28.199
One of the things that I like about it is it's less personality focused.

01:58:28.210 --> 01:58:28.729
Yeah, yeah.

01:58:28.729 --> 01:58:36.659
It's more, this is a story that we've been telling for, you know, a couple thousand years and that's evolved and changed over time and.

01:58:37.064 --> 01:58:47.604
Our, uh, our church that's kind of non denominational, but Presbyterian Light has like four pastors, effectively, to some extent for the same reason.

01:58:47.625 --> 01:58:54.710
To water down that personality factor of, and then they all take turns and we go through Luke for, A two year period.

01:58:54.710 --> 01:58:54.770
Yeah.

01:58:54.770 --> 01:58:55.189
Or whatever.

01:58:55.284 --> 01:58:55.609
Yeah, yeah.

01:58:55.699 --> 01:58:58.189
Um, but not four years like the Greeks do.

01:58:58.460 --> 01:58:58.640
Yeah.

01:58:58.699 --> 01:58:59.930
I've been listening to the St.

01:58:59.930 --> 01:59:01.430
SPI on Oh cool.

01:59:01.430 --> 01:59:02.180
Podcast.

01:59:02.210 --> 01:59:05.539
Uh, and, uh, now it's called something else.

01:59:05.539 --> 01:59:08.170
But, uh, but I've enjoyed That's interesting.

01:59:08.170 --> 01:59:09.310
Their manner of teacher too.

01:59:09.460 --> 01:59:09.670
Yeah.

01:59:09.670 --> 01:59:10.630
I should check into that.

01:59:10.630 --> 01:59:12.310
I have a, a couple of buddies that go there.

01:59:12.399 --> 01:59:12.760
Yeah.

01:59:12.819 --> 01:59:14.255
And, uh, that's fascinating.

01:59:14.694 --> 01:59:20.154
It's, uh, it's, I've learned a lot about, like, but not enough yet about that notion, so.

01:59:20.154 --> 01:59:23.515
Well, a bunch of that stuff is, uh, you can talk about that stuff forever.

01:59:24.085 --> 01:59:44.670
Well, and that's part of the, the, you know, I think it's, a lot of times people package church history as kind of, All these bad things, but the truth is there's only a little bit of bad things, but there's a lot of really interesting things and dynamics and philosophical conversations about what should be in the Nicene Creed.

01:59:44.729 --> 01:59:45.170
Oh yeah.

01:59:45.430 --> 01:59:45.850
Right?

01:59:45.880 --> 01:59:48.569
And, uh, 99 thesis?

01:59:48.569 --> 01:59:50.649
Why don't you just get one more?

01:59:50.789 --> 01:59:52.039
I'm sure you could, I don't know.

01:59:52.800 --> 01:59:53.819
Or is it 98 thesis?

01:59:53.819 --> 01:59:54.000
I forget.

01:59:54.001 --> 01:59:55.979
95, okay, whatever.

01:59:56.130 --> 01:59:58.060
You just needed five more things to complain about.

01:59:58.060 --> 01:59:59.739
And I have a few I could have added.

01:59:59.739 --> 02:00:00.229
Right.

02:00:01.439 --> 02:00:02.720
But it's all philosophical.

02:00:02.720 --> 02:00:23.439
Like the Anglican notion of like, that's really the, that's why England came to such strength, I think in some ways is because they're, they're parliamentary systems and the notion of battling out ideas in a public forum was the first time that Socrates is stuff had really been used on a larger scale.

02:00:23.640 --> 02:00:25.869
Oh, maybe I don't know.

02:00:25.869 --> 02:00:27.550
I just came up with that shit just now.

02:00:27.770 --> 02:00:31.399
Well, you've definitely had Western culture idolize.

02:00:31.979 --> 02:00:35.819
Greek philosophy, Greek style of government, and for that to be tested and practiced.

02:00:35.819 --> 02:00:36.220
Absolutely.

02:00:36.229 --> 02:00:37.930
But it hasn't been used that much.

02:00:38.199 --> 02:00:44.479
You know, the Socratic method of trying to find truth, usually there's, most places there's just been one decider.

02:00:44.550 --> 02:00:45.869
Not that much open discourse.

02:00:45.869 --> 02:00:49.750
But the Brits, to my knowledge, were among the of yelling and shouting in the House of Commons.

02:00:49.750 --> 02:00:50.229
Exactly.

02:00:51.430 --> 02:00:51.909
That's right.

02:00:51.920 --> 02:00:58.510
So anyway, well, you're the student of ancient history, but let's do a family.

02:00:59.100 --> 02:00:59.489
Yeah.

02:00:59.789 --> 02:01:09.659
Tell me about this woman that you, um, asked to marry you with, or maybe she asked you, I don't know, but within like two months of dating her, it sounded like the mighty and formidable Mrs.

02:01:09.659 --> 02:01:10.479
Hines, Mrs.

02:01:10.760 --> 02:01:11.159
Hines.

02:01:11.210 --> 02:01:15.579
Um, yeah, we, we met, um, Does she have a first name?

02:01:15.609 --> 02:01:16.720
Summertime, Sharon.

02:01:16.729 --> 02:01:17.229
Summertime?

02:01:17.380 --> 02:01:17.579
Oh.

02:01:17.789 --> 02:01:18.729
We met in the summer.

02:01:19.000 --> 02:01:19.369
Summertime Hines.

02:01:19.369 --> 02:01:20.850
Summertime Hines, that would be cool.

02:01:20.859 --> 02:01:21.510
That would be fantastic.

02:01:21.520 --> 02:01:22.039
Hi Sharon.

02:01:24.109 --> 02:01:30.090
Um, and we went out on a date a week or two later.

02:01:30.880 --> 02:01:31.020
Okay.

02:01:31.029 --> 02:01:34.380
And uh, And we just kept hanging out.

02:01:35.250 --> 02:01:40.140
And she only went out on the date with me because she knew I was moving to Europe in two months.

02:01:40.949 --> 02:01:44.460
And she was kind of in a spot where she was like, I don't really need a date right now.

02:01:44.520 --> 02:01:49.270
She was recovering from uh, Just, yeah, didn't need, didn't, Just didn't want to be distracted.

02:01:49.270 --> 02:01:49.550
Wasn't into it.

02:01:49.550 --> 02:01:51.060
She's about to start her masters.

02:01:51.090 --> 02:01:52.364
Oh, okay, okay.

02:01:53.125 --> 02:01:56.965
And so she's like, well, you know, hang out for a couple of months and then he's out of here.

02:01:56.966 --> 02:02:02.185
Um, but we really, uh, we really liked each other a bunch.

02:02:02.555 --> 02:02:02.734
Yeah.

02:02:02.935 --> 02:02:06.045
And so we never talked about getting engaged or getting married.

02:02:06.385 --> 02:02:06.654
Okay.

02:02:06.654 --> 02:02:08.085
We just dated.

02:02:08.175 --> 02:02:09.125
We just did stuff.

02:02:09.164 --> 02:02:10.454
We hung out with our families.

02:02:10.454 --> 02:02:15.984
We just did, we had two months, six days a week for two months, just hung out all the time.

02:02:15.984 --> 02:02:28.560
And, um, and then I, It didn't seem good to me to, um, I felt like it was probably, and she had things going on in her life, right?

02:02:28.590 --> 02:02:29.430
Master's degree.

02:02:29.430 --> 02:02:31.079
And she was going to go do AmeriCorps.

02:02:31.420 --> 02:02:33.550
So you're traveling around doing some things like that.

02:02:33.890 --> 02:02:35.159
So she had stuff going on.

02:02:35.420 --> 02:02:41.109
So it felt inappropriate for me to say, um, just hang out.

02:02:41.260 --> 02:02:42.439
I'll be back at Christmas.

02:02:42.500 --> 02:02:42.840
Yeah.

02:02:43.479 --> 02:02:47.510
Um, it felt like we either ought to break up or, um, or I should ask her.

02:02:47.520 --> 02:02:48.149
Make it official.

02:02:48.279 --> 02:02:48.630
Yeah.

02:02:48.760 --> 02:02:49.149
Yeah.

02:02:49.239 --> 02:02:56.145
And, um, And a good friend of mine asked, what are you waiting to find out about this girl before you decide to ask her to marry you?

02:02:57.034 --> 02:03:00.404
And I thought about that some and it's like, all right, yes, that's right.

02:03:01.024 --> 02:03:07.425
And, and we'd, we'd had a relationship such that if we had broken up, it wouldn't have been devastating.

02:03:07.645 --> 02:03:07.895
Yeah.

02:03:08.255 --> 02:03:12.625
So really getting to know each other well, but you know, it would, it would have been sad.

02:03:12.645 --> 02:03:30.390
You didn't hang the moon on each other yet and still don't really like, that's one thing I say about, uh, One of the most right now, but, uh, a woman or a partner that wants me, but doesn't need me.

02:03:30.960 --> 02:03:34.039
Um, and, and then both want each other.

02:03:34.710 --> 02:03:41.199
And, and yes, ultimately you should develop that need, even that it's a longing and whatever, but, but on the front end.

02:03:41.944 --> 02:03:49.694
Like I don't really want somebody that really needs me when I'm thinking about contemplating a relationship No, and it was it was neat to me to see something.

02:03:49.694 --> 02:03:50.914
I mean, she's got a life.

02:03:50.914 --> 02:04:05.125
She's got shit she's doing Yeah, you know, she doesn't need you're exactly right doesn't need this So I asked her to marry me in a parking lot at CSU at 9 o'clock one night Somewhat spontaneously, and she said, yep.

02:04:06.314 --> 02:04:10.574
You're just like talking and you're like, you're so awesome, will you, will you marry me?

02:04:10.694 --> 02:04:11.685
Will you marry me?

02:04:11.715 --> 02:04:12.595
Yeah, just like that.

02:04:12.604 --> 02:04:13.425
That was that.

02:04:13.484 --> 02:04:14.465
And she just said, yep.

02:04:14.604 --> 02:04:16.265
She said, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

02:04:17.595 --> 02:04:19.774
Alright, and four days later I flew to England.

02:04:19.895 --> 02:04:20.234
Okay.

02:04:20.234 --> 02:04:22.784
This was before Skype, FaceTime.

02:04:22.814 --> 02:04:23.395
Right.

02:04:23.640 --> 02:04:25.250
Um, so we talked once a week.

02:04:25.279 --> 02:04:27.539
Long distance calls were 80 an hour.

02:04:27.550 --> 02:04:28.550
Dude, so expensive.

02:04:29.060 --> 02:04:30.000
We had no money.

02:04:30.789 --> 02:04:37.960
Um, and, uh, we just wrote letters and we just, we, it was like, Hey, email was happening.

02:04:37.961 --> 02:04:40.779
We could do some email.

02:04:41.159 --> 02:04:46.359
Um, and we just felt like if we grew more fond of each other, that was a pretty good sign.

02:04:46.359 --> 02:04:47.529
It was going to be a thing.

02:04:47.539 --> 02:04:48.539
And if not, then.

02:04:48.949 --> 02:04:50.810
We could break up and it wouldn't be the end of the world.

02:04:50.810 --> 02:04:54.000
Um, and we got married a week after my first year.

02:04:54.619 --> 02:04:56.550
So we met and married in under a year.

02:04:56.949 --> 02:04:57.829
Love it, dude.

02:04:57.949 --> 02:04:58.699
It was awesome.

02:04:59.130 --> 02:05:00.350
I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

02:05:00.760 --> 02:05:01.880
Um, it was awesome.

02:05:02.239 --> 02:05:06.770
If she was here, what would she say about how she was willing to say yes?

02:05:06.770 --> 02:05:09.590
So quickly, what were her favorite things about you?

02:05:09.989 --> 02:05:19.574
Um, I think that she really, um, likes how I, you know, just, I pick things up and, and just own them.

02:05:19.895 --> 02:05:24.175
I just get after stuff, adventure, work, relationship, whatever it is.

02:05:24.904 --> 02:05:29.975
Uh, I'm a pretty active guy and, um, I'm pretty decisive about.

02:05:30.975 --> 02:05:32.574
Making things happen and doing things.

02:05:32.574 --> 02:05:35.345
And she was really, that was something that was exciting to her.

02:05:36.524 --> 02:05:38.125
She's got a big battery too, I suspect.

02:05:38.375 --> 02:05:38.604
Yeah.

02:05:38.604 --> 02:05:43.345
I mean, well, think about what it's like to meet someone and move to Europe with them and you've known them less than a year.

02:05:43.505 --> 02:05:43.864
Yeah.

02:05:44.045 --> 02:05:47.935
I sort of, I watched 1883 or maybe it was 1923.

02:05:48.515 --> 02:05:55.265
They're the shows that come after Yellowstone and one of the guys is in Africa, he's a big game hunter and he meets some socialite and.

02:05:55.670 --> 02:05:56.960
He's like, Hey, I'm going back to America.

02:05:56.960 --> 02:05:57.489
You want to go?

02:05:57.850 --> 02:05:58.920
She chased him down and went with him.

02:05:59.130 --> 02:06:00.430
I was like, that is my wife.

02:06:01.029 --> 02:06:03.399
I mean, that's a big fucking bet to make.

02:06:03.470 --> 02:06:03.720
Yeah.

02:06:04.289 --> 02:06:08.460
Um, and, uh, so it's, it's, it's But also, what else are you doing?

02:06:09.199 --> 02:06:09.460
Oh.

02:06:09.529 --> 02:06:10.710
You know, you got something better to do?

02:06:10.949 --> 02:06:11.270
No, no, no.

02:06:11.270 --> 02:06:13.000
Um, what was It's the best thing to do.

02:06:13.010 --> 02:06:20.090
What was the, uh, what was and is, uh, the thing that you love the most about your life?

02:06:20.090 --> 02:06:28.689
So, so Sharon, the first time we talked was, um, talking about, she went pretty quickly into how she looks at the world and life.

02:06:28.810 --> 02:06:29.020
Hmm.

02:06:29.159 --> 02:06:31.496
And the sort of person that she wanted to be.

02:06:31.496 --> 02:06:31.774
That's very bold.

02:06:32.454 --> 02:06:42.095
And, uh, the way that she thinks about life and the openness she has with her ego, Um, was, uh, really interesting.

02:06:42.104 --> 02:06:43.085
Kind of refreshing.

02:06:43.435 --> 02:06:47.204
Compared to a lot of guardedness and that age group and whatever else.

02:06:47.494 --> 02:06:48.904
And that has not changed.

02:06:49.595 --> 02:06:51.505
So, just her openness of heart.

02:06:51.935 --> 02:06:55.225
Um, uh, she is a strong lady.

02:06:56.654 --> 02:06:59.135
but she is incredibly gentle and kind to people.

02:06:59.305 --> 02:06:59.574
Yeah.

02:06:59.685 --> 02:07:02.085
And so, and she doesn't have a hint of malice.

02:07:02.175 --> 02:07:02.505
Yeah.

02:07:02.574 --> 02:07:03.954
She just doesn't lie.

02:07:04.885 --> 02:07:06.574
Um, and that has not changed.

02:07:07.274 --> 02:07:12.345
You know, we've been married 23 years, I think this year, 23 or 24.

02:07:12.975 --> 02:07:14.805
And, uh, my wife and I'll be 22.

02:07:14.814 --> 02:07:15.835
This hadn't changed.

02:07:15.895 --> 02:07:16.194
Yeah.

02:07:16.484 --> 02:07:17.055
It's awesome.

02:07:17.074 --> 02:07:17.404
Yeah.

02:07:17.405 --> 02:07:17.635
Yeah.

02:07:17.635 --> 02:07:20.104
So, and you showed me the picture of the rock and tatas.

02:07:20.121 --> 02:07:22.050
Yeah, she's fantastic.

02:07:22.300 --> 02:07:22.880
I'm just kidding.

02:07:22.949 --> 02:07:23.619
I have zero.

02:07:23.619 --> 02:07:24.359
I'm just kidding, Sharon.

02:07:24.359 --> 02:07:26.840
I did not see any pictures.

02:07:27.470 --> 02:07:29.289
Yeah, I'm a lucky, I'm a lucky dude.

02:07:31.609 --> 02:07:34.859
The Loco Experience is our final segment.

02:07:34.970 --> 02:07:35.380
I love it.

02:07:35.600 --> 02:07:41.250
Craziest segment, or craziest story or experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share.

02:07:43.479 --> 02:07:44.569
Oh, do you want to talk about your kids?

02:07:45.385 --> 02:07:47.074
Let me tell you in 90 seconds.

02:07:47.085 --> 02:07:56.805
Yes, I got one word descriptions of your children is what I usually that's I'd like to have a one word description of each so my we do it fast.

02:07:56.854 --> 02:08:01.095
Yeah, my daughter Casey's 18 Okay, she's a warrior a warrior.

02:08:01.114 --> 02:08:01.725
Hi Casey.

02:08:02.074 --> 02:08:11.564
My son Jonah is 15 and He is Strong and he's kind yeah, it's two words.

02:08:11.564 --> 02:08:19.324
It's both your mom Yeah And then my daughter, Nora, she needs more than a couple words, but I've got this one memorized.

02:08:19.654 --> 02:08:25.034
She's 11, and she's like a 50 50 combination between Bruce Lee and Audrey Hepburn.

02:08:25.036 --> 02:08:27.225
I like that.

02:08:27.534 --> 02:08:31.204
So just super light and fun.

02:08:31.465 --> 02:08:32.784
Everything's always fun.

02:08:32.864 --> 02:08:34.295
Like a powerful pixie.

02:08:34.435 --> 02:08:35.005
Oh yeah.

02:08:35.435 --> 02:08:43.444
But she's the one that'll sneak up to me when I'm working in the yard without my shirt on and smack me as hard as she can on the back to see how red my handprint she can make.

02:08:44.185 --> 02:08:46.774
So it's, uh, they're, they're awesome.

02:08:46.824 --> 02:08:47.494
That's the three?

02:08:47.604 --> 02:08:47.975
Yeah.

02:08:48.064 --> 02:08:48.354
Okay.

02:08:49.095 --> 02:08:54.954
We have a daughter that was born between, um, Nora and Jonah and she, and she, she died.

02:08:54.975 --> 02:08:58.085
Born in miscarriage or childbirth or accident?

02:08:58.104 --> 02:08:59.864
In childbirth and they don't know why.

02:08:59.925 --> 02:09:00.564
Oh, wow.

02:09:01.034 --> 02:09:03.324
Sometime over the course of a couple hours.

02:09:03.659 --> 02:09:09.350
Wow, yeah, so you were like, yeah, we had a baby and then hey, our baby died.

02:09:09.439 --> 02:09:11.500
Yeah, we found out just right there.

02:09:11.710 --> 02:09:15.819
Total normal, in the hospital, no signs, no beeps, no nothing.

02:09:15.819 --> 02:09:18.750
Just, yeah, it's a sudden infant death syndrome.

02:09:18.750 --> 02:09:20.729
That was Something like that.

02:09:20.739 --> 02:09:24.670
I mean, I think oftentimes that refers to, that's for later, after it's been home and stuff.

02:09:24.689 --> 02:09:24.920
Yeah.

02:09:24.921 --> 02:09:25.744
Okay.

02:09:25.744 --> 02:09:26.569
Wow.

02:09:26.939 --> 02:09:29.640
Wow, what a hard, no closure either.

02:09:29.710 --> 02:09:30.109
Absolutely.

02:09:30.270 --> 02:09:32.449
Was that hard on your, on your wife?

02:09:32.510 --> 02:09:32.800
Yeah.

02:09:32.810 --> 02:09:34.149
More than you or less than you?

02:09:34.239 --> 02:09:36.090
No, I think hard on both.

02:09:36.130 --> 02:09:42.510
And, you know, we learned in the process, probably, I think it's 80 percent of couples that experience that get divorced.

02:09:42.590 --> 02:09:43.130
Oh, wow.

02:09:43.189 --> 02:09:44.109
I mean, it's very high.

02:09:44.149 --> 02:09:44.470
Yeah.

02:09:44.909 --> 02:09:48.020
And, um, you, you deal with a bunch of hard stuff.

02:09:48.680 --> 02:09:51.479
And we had some physical com, uh, complications.

02:09:51.479 --> 02:09:55.130
Sharon ended up being in bed and really horrific pain for a couple of years.

02:09:55.920 --> 02:09:56.550
Oh, wow.

02:09:56.630 --> 02:10:04.229
Uh, so we've, we've had a couple periods of time in our lives where it's, you know, you're kind of in a war zone and going hard.

02:10:04.430 --> 02:10:11.000
Do you want to, is one of those what you want to share in a loco experience or that seems a little private, maybe, I don't know.

02:10:11.079 --> 02:10:14.220
That's those are, I mean, those are, those are crazy though.

02:10:15.090 --> 02:10:15.430
Yeah.

02:10:15.439 --> 02:10:16.720
I mean, Jill and I miscarried.

02:10:16.890 --> 02:10:17.090
Yeah.

02:10:17.090 --> 02:10:27.149
And like, we went in for a, what do they call it, with a little scanner thing so you can see what the little critter looks like, and they're like, oh, it's not, like, moving.

02:10:27.300 --> 02:10:27.710
Yeah.

02:10:28.279 --> 02:10:29.449
Uh, that was hard.

02:10:29.779 --> 02:10:30.989
Oh, it's, it's horrible.

02:10:31.180 --> 02:10:33.520
I don't, it's, um, those are the hardest things.

02:10:33.840 --> 02:10:34.180
Yeah.

02:10:34.819 --> 02:10:36.020
Those are the hardest things.

02:10:37.170 --> 02:10:42.717
Um, and so it's, you know, you mentioned earlier, people get married, hopefully they're getting married soon.

02:10:42.717 --> 02:10:42.744
Yeah.

02:10:44.234 --> 02:10:48.814
And it's not a needy or dominating wantingness or something like that.

02:10:49.354 --> 02:10:55.534
And I think everyone gets married because that person is meeting a need.

02:10:55.534 --> 02:10:56.795
They don't perceive that they have.

02:10:56.805 --> 02:10:57.595
We all do that.

02:10:58.534 --> 02:11:19.885
Um, and if you're lucky to go through life with somebody who's committed to, um, uh, learning to love the person you're becoming, Like, like as Sharon and I are trying to mature and get healthier, I'm starting, I'll see, or she'll see a way that she's been behaving that isn't healthy for her, but it served me in some way.

02:11:20.744 --> 02:11:21.125
Right?

02:11:21.515 --> 02:11:31.194
And so like, if, if you have a chaotic life and somebody is really stable, so you're attracted to them because they stabilize some hard or broken part of you.

02:11:32.699 --> 02:11:38.060
If they've been doing that out of a sense of, of, uh, something that's not healthy, right?

02:11:38.689 --> 02:11:41.560
Then, as they get healthier, now you don't have that crutch anymore.

02:11:41.579 --> 02:11:42.090
Yeah, yeah.

02:11:42.109 --> 02:11:54.170
So, going through marriage, as those things untangle, and then loving a person when they don't meet some need that you had, that's a, that's a way to really go through some hard stuff.

02:11:54.180 --> 02:12:07.609
Well, and like, You know, when Jill married me, I was a banker and was going to be a banker for a long time and super stable and, you know, no traveling like her dad always did.

02:12:07.609 --> 02:12:09.310
And yeah, all these things.

02:12:09.310 --> 02:12:18.890
And then, you know, for her, like the demonstration of her love to walk through those early years of entrepreneurship was very galvanizing and challenging as well.

02:12:19.199 --> 02:12:19.579
Yeah.

02:12:19.840 --> 02:12:20.000
Yeah.

02:12:20.000 --> 02:12:20.289
Yeah.

02:12:20.291 --> 02:12:24.029
We've got a broad set of shoulders in our family now between Sharon and I.

02:12:24.649 --> 02:12:26.210
Um, it's awesome.

02:12:26.909 --> 02:12:28.720
Uh, but very, very hard fought.

02:12:29.020 --> 02:12:31.170
And you feel like you can kind of take on anything because of that.

02:12:31.289 --> 02:12:32.189
Oh yeah.

02:12:32.829 --> 02:12:34.140
Do you have anything hard planned?

02:12:34.800 --> 02:12:55.569
Um, I mean, growing the company a bunch and then learning what to start doing that's meaningful when it's in a place, I mean, my goal is that, that Heinz is a healthy structure that can operate without me and I don't have plans to leave or do it, you have sell or do anything like that, but I'm not helping my people be as healthy and strong as they can be.

02:12:56.005 --> 02:12:58.024
If I'm not moving toward a goal like that.

02:12:58.034 --> 02:13:00.125
And then, like, what, how would you spend your time?

02:13:00.255 --> 02:13:01.024
I don't know.

02:13:01.274 --> 02:13:01.784
Okay.

02:13:01.925 --> 02:13:04.715
That's the, that would, that's a question I'm thinking about a lot.

02:13:04.824 --> 02:13:05.354
Yeah, yeah.

02:13:05.414 --> 02:13:05.835
You know?

02:13:05.914 --> 02:13:06.314
Fair enough.

02:13:06.364 --> 02:13:10.805
Well, you're qualified to be a loco facilitator if you'd ever like to, uh, do that role.

02:13:10.944 --> 02:13:12.194
I'm getting close to getting time.

02:13:12.925 --> 02:13:13.244
Awesome.

02:13:13.274 --> 02:13:14.375
I'm getting close to getting time.

02:13:14.569 --> 02:13:21.090
Well, I'd love to spend, uh, another couple hours with you in a while on the podcast and before that, uh, let's go get breakfast.

02:13:21.090 --> 02:13:21.939
Yeah, that'd be great.

02:13:22.060 --> 02:13:22.390
All right.

02:13:22.430 --> 02:13:29.329
Well, um, Nate, it's been a pleasure, a very, uh, nice, long and philosophical conversation as usual.

02:13:29.689 --> 02:13:34.960
And, uh, Oh, like people that have water projects, uh, you have a website or something.

02:13:34.960 --> 02:13:37.680
I presume we do find us, uh, heinzinc.

02:13:37.710 --> 02:13:38.149
com.

02:13:38.680 --> 02:13:40.590
Um, great place to go.

02:13:41.140 --> 02:13:42.079
I'm on LinkedIn.

02:13:42.710 --> 02:13:44.500
I'm not on any other social media platforms.

02:13:45.239 --> 02:13:46.979
I changed my mobile phone every six months.

02:13:47.149 --> 02:13:47.550
Oh, right.

02:13:47.590 --> 02:13:49.109
Website's a great way to get in touch.

02:13:49.119 --> 02:13:49.569
Very good.

02:13:49.649 --> 02:13:50.880
Contact us at Heinz.

02:13:51.859 --> 02:13:52.329
Yes, sir.

02:13:52.369 --> 02:13:52.630
All right.

02:13:52.640 --> 02:13:52.869
Cheers.

02:13:52.909 --> 02:13:53.699
Thanks for being here.