EXPERIENCE 151 | Retail Alcohol Enterprise, Industry, and Ethics with Mat Dinsmore, Managing Partner of Wilbur’s Total Beverage and Wyatt’s Wet Goods

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I first met Matt Densmore during my banking career, perhaps at the Salt N Pepper Lunch Club. Wilbur's Total Beverage has been my go to special occasion retail liquor store ever since, and Matt, my often last minute wine guide. This November, after After he'd secured us a nice Prosecco Roséas the centerpiece of our local Think Tank member gifts, we got to talking about the impacts of Proposition 125 on his business and his anticipations for the future, and he agreed to share more on the show. Matt and his father started Wilbur's Total Beverage in Fort Collins in September of 2000, while Matt was still in college at CSU, and he's been working to create a great customer service and employee experience ever since, including getting his MBA from University of Wyoming. His father retired, And then later unretired to start Wyatt's Wet Goods in Longmont. And in recent years, he retired again when Colorado laws changed and allowed Matt to be a managing partner of both. Matt's staffing has decreased about 35 percent since Proposition 125 went into effect. And we talked about morale and communication during a shrinking team environment. And we talked about the broader ethics of the alcohol industry. Matt is a wonderful conversationalist and a broad supporter of community causes. And he gifted me a bottle of Blantons for us to sip and share with my near future guests, which I might be sipping as I record this introduction. It was fun to get to know Matt and learn more about his business journey, and share it with you all here on this latest episode of the LoCo Experience. Let's have some fun. Welcome to the Low Cove Experience podcast. On this show, you'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond. Our guests share their stories, business stories, life stories, stories of triumph and of tragedy. And through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained. These conversations are real and raw and no topics are off limits. So pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest. Welcome back to the Loco Experience podcast. My guest today is Matt Dinsmore, and Matt is the general manager, managing partner rather, of Wilbur's Total Beverage in Fort Collins, as well as Wyatt Wet Goods. Wyatt's Wet Goods? Wyatt's Wet Goods. Longmont. Is that a long time operation? I don't know if I knew you had that. So, my dad and I started Wilbur's in 2000. I was in college, and then dad retired in about I'm going to say 2012, 2013. And at that time, you could have one liquor license per person. And two years into retirement, a local developer, he's now passed away, but Allen Ginsberg, and some partners redeveloped the Longmont Mall to Village at the Peaks. And they, they went to Dad and said, hey You want to carry our license for us? Yeah, well, they said, do you have another one in you? You know, they didn't want to run a liquor store. They developed it in Whole Foods and a movie theater. Right, right. Dad came out of retirement and After that Whole Foods didn't open for an additional 18 months, which was a kicker and, you know, the plan was for me to stay at Wilbur's. you doing both now? I'm doing both now. So dad retired about two years ago. And then with the change in laws, I was able to buy him out of Long Mile. So one blessing of the change in laws, right? You know, I wouldn't call it a blessing. It's, it's a change, but, uh, you know, as I tell people, I go, guys, it's It's an erosion of 90 years worth of rules. Whether you liked them or hated them, your great grandparents wrote them, and you played by the rules. You know, first it was beer and grocery, then last year we had three things on the ballot. We were able to defeat two, but the wine and grocery stores is a, is a kick in the nuts, I mean. I hate to say that, but it, what it eventually is, it's an erosion of any family run businesses to. Well, just to make it, well, and it's not just that, but it's also an erosion of all those relationships of those craft distillers and those small breweries and stuff because king supers don't give a F how special your craft bourbon is. Really? Well, they don't even sell that now yet, but, but the wine and, and, and the beers and stuff. So it's going to be, so just, here's the, you know, 26 different wines you can choose from. You can choose from them. Same 26 next week. Mm hmm. And, uh, you know, it. Again, we've had an influx of folks from other states that go, Hey, this is how it's always been in California or Arizona or, you know, you name it. Sure. But I kind of like wine in supermarkets. Like, it's nice. It's right there, you know? Well, and that's, that's the kicker. I tell people, I'm like, guys, we win on service, selection, and price. Yeah. But convenience, we We don't, you know, and you know, and I don't buy it there. Well, thank you. I'd usually buy it from Mulberry Max. I'm sorry. You're just a little too far off my beaten path, but, but I, but I choose local intentionally and Aggie, Aggie sells me a lot of stuff. Well, I've known Rich. My entire life at Aggie, where it's shot, he, it's funny. Rich started at Aggie when it was a grocery store in the 1950s. Is that right? That's the only job he's ever had is in that building. Is that right? From grocery to liquor store to buy it, you know, Josh at Mulberry Max. He's a great dude. And I tell people, I'm like, yes, we're competitors, but we compete on a level playing field. You know, neither one of us are these huge multinational companies. We give a shit about our teams. We try to engage in the community. We have, we have a bunch of people that know things about wine on our staff. Yeah, well, we, we Care. And again, there's there's times, you know, there's seasons of how good your team is or isn't. And I'll tell you, during COVID, we didn't put out our best product, because we were just struggling to get people to, you know, maintain the flow of the store. But we we really do care. And we help people whether You're a college kid starting at Wilbur's or Mulberry Max, and you're doing it, or an internship, and then you graduate, and you want to go on and work at New Belgium or Odell's, or be an importer. And those are things that I think people get lost, the sense of There's a whole industry out there. There's a huge, and it's, it's a global industry. When you look at the big players, like Louis Vuitton. Moet Hennessy's one of the biggest, you know, producers in the world. Yeah. These aren't just, you know, New Belgium. I tell people New Belgium's a really big brewery, but in the scheme of things, they're not that big. No, tiny. And then you get into, you know, whether it's Odell's or keep going down the line. the way down to the other end of the line of Rich that Worked at the Aggie Grocery before it became Aggie Liquors or apparently or something, you know, and has his whole lifetime right there. Well there and he's he's been part of the community. I mean, I'm guessing Rich is 75 80 years old He's been a part of the community forever. So they uh, They uh, I think it was during the pandemic. Maybe it was before the pandemic They did something that nobody else has ever done. Uh is run me a tab Like I went in there one day at Aggie Liquors and bought like a bottle of bourbon and a 12 pack of beer or something. I didn't have my wallet. I left it at home, which is six blocks away. And I was like, I can, I can run and get it. He's like, I'll see you in here next weekend or something. And he just wrote my name down and the 41. 86 or whatever. And, uh, I have to be going to Beavers after that, but I popped home to get my wallet. And then when I went there, I was like, would you guys run me a tab? And they're like, no, we don't, we don't, we don't see you in here as much as the Eggy Liquors guy see you. Well, and, and Rich has done that countless times. I'll tell you the last time I feel bad, there was a girl, she turned 22 last year and I ran her a tab and I never heard from her again. So it's that double edged sword. Oh, you guys do that too? We, we try not to. Oh, I have to keep my eyes open. Now she came in and she was, it was like her 22nd birthday and. For whatever reason, she'd forgotten her purse at home. And I said, you know, she had her driver's license, but no cash. And I said, happy birthday. She's getting a bottle of, you know, sparkling wine and a six pack of beer. I'm like, hey, just call me later with a credit card number. And we'll just say, I never got the call. But, you know, that's the risk you take. That's how it goes. So, set the stage for me a little bit. Tell me about, um, Wilbur's and, uh, Wyatt's, like, how big of stores are they? How many employees between these two businesses? And then we'll, we'll jump in the time machine and talk about the development of the operations, uh, along the way as well. Perfect. So, Wilbur's, um, You know, long story short, we were just talking about graduating what years in high school, because that's, you can't cheat that way, but Wilbur's, my, my father had been in retail in Denver in the 70s. Okay. And then went to work for Berenger Winery when it was owned by Nestle Chocolate. Mirasu, when it was still a family owned winery, and then, uh, it was called Sheflin and Somerset. Okay. But it was a And what's dad's name? Uh, my dad's Dennis Dinsmore. Okay. He, uh, kind of long story short, my kids are fifth generation Loveland. Wow. So, I tell people, my wife and I go to the same high school that my dad and my aunt did, and my grandma and grandpa, and now my daughter is a junior at Loveland High School. Yeah, yeah. You know, I was a junior last year. So we've been shipping money from Wilbur's and Fort Collins down to the Loveland family for 30 years, 20 years now. At 20, I just started my 24th year. Yeah. So dad, dad left Shefflin in 2000. I was at, uh, I think I was at Front Range at the time. Okay. And he hadn't done retail since there were computers in retail. Right. He talks about literally journal entries and tons of stuff written by hand and still tagging every bottle with a sticker gun. Sure. So we bought a, a fledgling store called Beverage Nation that was next to the old Wild Oats. Yeah. And so we went in there, um, it was the old CEO of Wild Oats Brother who, great plans, but realized that, you know, retail's a struggle and it's a grind. Yeah, yeah. And so we went in, I knew nothing about retail. Really nothing about booze. You didn't know much about anything, really. You were 20 years old or something. 22. 20. I mean, we knew how to drink booze, but we didn't know how to sell it. Right. And there were times dad wanted to kill me too. Cause you know, he's 50 some years old, a bunch of everything at risk, pretty much everything at risk. He'd put it all on the line. Uh, we had one partner. And then at that point, all my friends were turning 21. So we had a built in talent pool of people we knew and trusted. That's nice. And you know, some Fort Collins folks, some CSU folks, but really that age group. And so we opened and we were, we were across from the old mall. off Foothills Parkway, right, right south of Dellenbaugh till 2004. Okay. And then in 04, when Whole Foods announced they were coming to town, we went to Wild Oats and said, okay, what's, you know, what's the plan? Okay. They said, well, we're going to restripe the parking lot and paint the deli. And you're like, Oh, we're fucked. Sorry. I hope you can clear that up. But that's what we're at. We always just put the explicit lyrics on everyone just to warn people. Perfect. But you're sitting there and you're like, okay, here comes 800 pound gorilla. Right. And so that was your positioning was basically you were. By the wild oats. And now it was going to be like, Oh crap, all the wild oats customers are going to go over to Whole Foods. So exactly. And so we, we went over and we signed the lease. Cause the whole foods Wilbur center was part of the old mall. And that was the old Montgomery ward. Sure. Yeah. And it had been blighted for years. It's taken me back to the day. Cause I moved here in 99. Okay. So I was around at that time, but I didn't, I didn't go south of prospect much. Okay. Well, it's funny because my dad talks about when you went south of Drake, all it being was cornfields. Sure. Yeah. And you know, my grandfather had worked at CSU, my dad went to CSU, even though we lived in Loveland, Fort Collins, growing up in Loveland, everything you did was up here. Yeah. That's Fort Fund. Right. You know, I remember even growing up when the target off Harmony was like the outskirts of Fort Collins and that had to have been in the late eighties. I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. But, so, we opened in 2000, 2004, we went and relocated, we went from about 13, 000 square feet to I think we're about 25, 000 square feet right now. Oh wow, okay. Um, you know, doubled the size, I remember signing that lease. And did you become Wilbur's then too? So we rebranded in 2000 from Beverage Nation to You bought the Beverage Nation and turned it into a Wilbur's. Yeah, and the reason being is, um, everybody said, what is Beverage Nation? Are you a wholesale pop distributor? Are you a liquor store? You know, what do you guys do? And we'd always talked about building a brand. You know, not just being price and product. You know, Budweiser at X or Jack at Y. It was how do you do, and this was before Crazy Carl's, but Crazy Eddie's, tongue in cheek, that you build a brand and people know what it is. And so it, it was, Probably July of 2000, Dad and I, we were going through the Name Your Baby book, having cocktails. I was 20, you know, Dad had just left Shefflin, and by the time you get to W's, you've had a couple of cocktails. And Wilbur came up, and Dad goes, Wilbur. Like Mr. Ed. Wilbur. I'd never seen Mr. Ed, I had no idea what he was talking about. And I said, well, Charlotte's web and dad had never seen Charlotte's web. And then we have, uh, still have a long time family friend who, um, he goes by Lee and the year before dad and him had been in Italy. And this was back when you handed over your passport to check into a hotel. And dad goes, who in the hell is Wilbur's shut up. I hate my name. So we had Mr. Ed, we had Charlotte's web. And Lee hated it. And nobody was going to copy it. Right. So here we are, we're almost 25 years later. And, you know, it's interesting. I was sure it was going to be your dad's dad or something like that. No, it was, Grandpa was Daryl and, you know, you looked at it, you said Matt Slicker or Aggie. You know, how many Aggie whatever is there in town. And we looked at it and said, yes, we want to build a business, but we also want to build a product and a brand. Well, the yellow pages were still a thing then you could be at the end of the. No, it was, uh, that was, I remember we were one of the first stores to have a website. And that was a big deal in 2000. Isn't that wild? That's 24 years ago. And now, you know, here we are. So we moved in 2004. At the time, I think we had 12 or 14 team members. Um, you know, this year, wine and grocery stores changed things immensely. Prior, we'd always been in that 45 to 48 team member role. We tried to stay under 50 just because once you hit 50, you got different problems. Yeah, let's, I mean, we could talk about things like that even. Isn't that crazy? That you're like, okay, I'm going to just self limit the growth of my business, uh, so that I don't have to be in this other category of oversight. It's just such a dumb thing. Uh, what's those when it's such an arbitrary, arbitrary, because 50 people, you know, if you'd asked me in 2000, I couldn't have fathomed 50 people, but during COVID, you know, when, when everybody shut down, well, we hired as many of our bar and restaurant friends who got furloughed. Our entire delivery staff was high school teachers or counselors. You talk about who's going to be the best at ID and when all those people went home from work. Right. You know, we went from doing 13, 15 deliveries a day to 400 a day. Oh. So it was like, Oh, what an adaptation. If you could drive and you had a clean record, we could put you on a vehicle. If you've been on the team at Amazon and hated that, we want to talk to you. What was funny, because one of the teachers, she said, I always thought when I retired, I wanted to be the flower delivery lady. And she said, I was wrong. I want to be the booze girl. Cause she's like, everybody's happy. But you know, when you talk about adapting. Yeah. Right. Your whole operation, like all of a sudden that's like 400 deliveries a day. Was that half of your business? No. So we never got, we were never above about 15 percent because you know, when the mall shut down and this is going to sound really bad, but you had. Kind of older retirees who go walk the mall in the morning. Oh, right. Well, we had a couple of people who went to Wilbur's and walked in the morning. Um, cause we were open, you know, we said, it turns out they wound up buying more wine and some did. And a lot of people, You know, it changed things, you know, when you talk about having the first website, that was a big deal. Well, in 2017, we're the first people in town to have an app. So you could order online, whether it was for in store pickup or delivery. Well, those two apps, we have one that's kind of a vanilla envelope. That's the Wilbur's app. And then we team with one called, uh, Drizzly. Oh, sure. That we're basically a delivery mechanism. Right, right. But, here we are, from going from a website to your own app, and we had to limit how many orders we could take an hour, because it We're great at it. You're great at cash and carry. Right. You come in, you get a six pack of beer, a bottle of wine, some Jack, and off you go. Four minutes and I'm done. Well that same online order, you have to get it, check it, pull it, double check it, put it in the car. It, we were so inefficient. Hmm. And so, it became a bigger part of our business, but it broke us. So we had to put governors on and say, we can only do, I think we could do, 10 deliveries per hour per vehicle. Okay. And the reason being is, you know, it used to be on demand. So you'd be up North, down South, out West. And we just do two hour delivery windows and then map them accordingly. Oh, wow. But what a dynamic, right? Oh, it was, it was crazy. How much involvement did you have in that? Or did you just have a good team that was like, okay, we're going to figure this out. So I will, I'd love to take credit for a lot of things we do good, but it's your team. Right. And you know, this, any business owner knows this of getting the right people. In the right seat in the bus and, you know, there's certain times you have to tweak things. But it was our drivers that said, Hey, Matt, the on delivery on demand has to stop now. Um, you know, the pickups, you know, cause we could do as many pickups as we could pull, but all of a sudden you, you're bringing it out to people's cars and you had to ID through glass and make sure it wasn't there, you know, step kid picking it up. Right. You know, somebody. It was a real change in how we did business to where, you know, our business was scalable to where your fixed costs are X, your variables are Y, but you know, to grow like we did in COVID, you didn't necessarily need to double your staff, but we were able to hire lots of friends or friends, friends, or, you know, there were a couple of people who were really hurting that all of a sudden, you know, this was before the government really stepped in and people were like, cool. Can you work, you know, can you work 7 a. m. to noon and then go do your other thing? We had, uh, one lady we've worked with who her mom's like, she's deceased now, but she was 94 years old. And she said, Matt, I can't be here with other people. And I'm like, it's, it's really big store. Like, and she'd come in on Sunday nights at eight o'clock at night and work till three in the morning. And we changed the roles and just said, all we got to do is make sure our vendors are paid. You know, you do the bookkeeping part, you do this, but we were really able to shift some things. That, you know, and unfortunately that's biting us in the butt a little bit now. Right. Because we're like, hey guys, we gotta go back to We gotta tighten things up a little. some sort of normalcy. By the way, I forgot, before this gets warm, because my, uh, very recent guest was, uh, Annika Sawney, and she was the founder, here you can open this, of Groovy, and that is their Juicy IPA. And this non alcoholic, non alcoholic, uh, Pineapple y, tropical IPA, got a nice hop texture. They actually brew good beer and then take the alcohol out. It does have hops. Oh yeah, no, it's, you're gonna, That's good. So guess how many calories that has? Fifty. It says it right there. Yeah. Reading it. I'm cheating. Isn't that crazy? It is crazy. It seems impossible to have something that tastes that good in an IPA. And it's got good flavor. Really nice. Yeah. Which, it's funny that you bring this up, because dry January. Right. Perfect. Yeah, you sell a lot of that stuff. We have seen a shift, uh, from bourbon to non alcoholic spirits, N. A. beers, or whatever, N. A. wines. That it's something that's real. Yeah, yeah. I've tried every one, just about. The athletic one, it seems to be catching the most traction on handles and stuff lately especially, but to me that's way better. Uh, so anyway. No, I agree. I'll introduce you guys sometime if you want. Athletic is one of the first ones that was good. For sure, pretty, quite good. Yeah, and maybe it's more to your palate than that. Um, I like this. That's really good Well, it's kind of refreshing. Yeah. Yeah, it's almost like a what do they call those like a session sessionable IPA like that's What it tastes like to me is a nice good behavior or something like that, you know, well, good, good behavior or, you know, it's funny now because with my kids, my daughter's 16, my son's 13. And, you know, we're going out and I've told Lindsay, I said, it's weird when you have a 16 year old because you want to have a glass of wine with dinner, but you don't want that second one just because if she calls and hey, hey, The car's not working or, you know, they're out and about, you know, God forbid anybody gets in a car wreck or anything. You have to be responsible. And so this would come in great for that. Well, that was one of the things I was just thinking about your business. How much focus and intention you have to put toward, like, making sure 20 year olds are not buying booze. Or stepkids pulling up to pull up a drive up order. Or they got a mom's app and ordered it online and now It, it never ceases to amaze me. How many ways people will try to scam you? Well, and it, it's gone on forever. You know, I, I talked with, you know, some of my dad's friends who are like, Matt, we used to make our own fake IDs. Right. Like, literally, we'd take a scalpel, and now some of the fakes, because we are, and when you go online, Yelp, love it or hate it, that's a whole different discussion, but that's where people go to bitch. Right. And I tell people we try hard every day. But we fail miserably sometimes, and if we've provided bad customer service, or we've done something wrong, we will own it, we will do all we can to fix it. But on there, the number one complaint is our IDing policy. And I tell people, I'm like, guys, I get it, but we're a mile from CSU. We're two miles from front range. We're not too far. We have what, five or six high schools in Fort Collins now. We have a responsibility to be good stewards of an adult product. Yeah. And you know, some people get that and I get some people are a little less laissez faire, but if you're 21 and not drunk or high, I want your business. But if you're drunk, high, belligerent, or under 21, that's not where we're going to So here's a question for you on, let's kind of get into the deep, hard questions early on, but like, you probably have quite a few customers that have a real serious drinking problem. And, and you know it, you recognize it, you know, and they're coming in for the same kind of stuff every week or whatever. Like, how, do you have a policy around that? Or do you have, like, even for yourself to be like, hey, Robert Are you sure you need to? Seems like your volume has been going up a little bit. It's, you know, thank you for bringing it up, and I'll tell you A friend of mine, Dan Hall, with a new view window cleaning and loved one. Okay. Yeah. He and I went to CSU together and we were in a business ethics class in about 2004, 2005 together. Okay. And it was the first Oh, so you just kept going to college after you started Wilbur's and, Mm-Hmm. Okay. Yeah. So I was, well, I took the seven year plan from an undergrad I had, I was five and a half, but I couldn't figure out how to lock. They could go any longer. Well, and then it's because I was at Mesa State in Grand Junction. Great school, but I was totally homesick. Came home, a couple years at Front Range, a couple years at CSU, then I went to Wyoming and got my master's degree. Oh, really? Which was a two year degree that took me six. I was in no rush. In business or masters of what? Just an MBA. Yeah. And so, um, one of the old, uh, the dean, I think it'd be marketing. His name was O. C. Farrell. Okay. Business ethics guy. He's, Written all these books and yeah, he and his wife were in one day and I graduated and talking about going for an MBA And at that point You had to take the GMAT, right? Yep. I took mine. I got a 680. What'd you get? I remember leaving the room going Well, there's all the schools I can't go to. There was a lot of them for me there for sure I'm like, I'm not that dumb am I but you know in the liquor business, we are great C students like great C students I was a coast to a B kind of guy mostly But yeah, hey B's get degrees, but so do C's obviously So, he was in, and I'd taken the GMAT, and he goes, Matt, we don't, we don't require the GMAT at Wyoming. And he's like, we've got an online program. You don't have to go. I'll, I'll get you in. You've got all this years. Cause prior to the liquor store, I had a landscaping business through high school and college that we'll, we'll jump in the time machine to those early days. We kind of started in the middle, but that's okay. So we had the discussion. He's like, Matt, come up to Wyoming. He's like, I'll get you in. No problem. You know, I had an undergraduate in marketing, so. It was, you know, a lot of people from banking, a lot of oil and gas people in Wyoming. And then I'd taken two years, maybe a year and a half, and then we have my daughter and then life, you know, school went on the back burner. And then about three and a half years later, I got the letter saying, Mr. Dinsmore, you've got about a year to finish these credits or you start losing them. And so that last semester I had a class and it was, you know, taking this word problem, putting it into a log, a logarithm, putting it into Excel, and it's spitting out however many widgets and I, I couldn't figure it out. So I drove up to Laramie three days a week for my last semester. Oh, wow. And somehow got a B and great experience, but so I totally got lost. Let's go back to that ethical question about selling. Descending Alcoholics Booze. So, Dan brought up, he said, Matt, how do you ethically do what you do? How do you look yourself in the mirror? And it was the first time I'd really been asked that. You know, coming back to the original question, somewhere between 12 and 16 percent of the U. S. population has alcohol issues. It moves, I think it's probably a higher number after COVID. Right. Um, I didn't realize it was that much. I was thinking more like five to 10. No, it's a large amount. And so the mixture, and that's just alcohol. We're not talking drugs and alcohol, just talking alcohol. And I had to step back and say, you know what? We have a very stringent ID policy. We have scanning technology, like. This young lady said she came in, she was Yeah, you'd never sell her nothing. No, and we've had to go, you know what, by law we have to ID under 50, which is subjective, because my 50 is Yeah, yeah. different than our 21 year old's 50. Right. Um, we've set governors on our apps, like we've told people, we will come we had one guy, he was ordering once a day, every day. And we told him, we said, you know, I can't stop you from drinking. But I'm not going to bring it to your home for you to do this to yourself, you know, we'll come out once a week and that I'm okay with, but we're not going to deliver a bottle at your front doorstep every day. Now people coming into the store, you know, this is, this is going to sound really bad, but some on our low end products, we've raised the prices. And that's to help, especially as the transient population has migrated to midtown. If you can take your what should be a 1. 99 steel reserve, and it's 3. 99. A lot of that clientele goes elsewhere. So, part of you can't really make it go away, the demand. You can deflect it at least, which keeps your employees safer, your customers safer. It Well, and it Things like that, and maybe it'll reduce their consumption. You know? Well, and at the end of the day, people are going to get what they want. And my son and I, he's 13, we were talking about this the other day, I said, buddy, whether it's fast food, whether it's a gambling addiction, whether it's drug or it's alcohol. And so Dan, when he asked me that question in 05, I really had to look internally and say, he's got a really good question. A very loaded question. And at the end of the day, if I, if I was not here, if Wilbur's was not here. Would that change the problem for anybody? And the answer for me is no. Yeah, no, I would agree. You know, people find forbidden fruit, whether it's drugs or alcohol, you name what it is. Now, we have It's just how many people profit from that fruit, right? Like, this whole opiate addiction in America, like, there's certain people, Sackler family, that profited, like, amazingly, and many others, right? And washed their hands of virtually destroying the culture of A ton of communities and a lot of lives and I think when you, and don't quote me here, but I believe that the deaths in Colorado are greater from alcohol than opioids at this point. Really? And, and Denver post just had like a five greater from alcohol than opioids or opioids than alcohol, alcohol than opioids. Really? So even still, still even. And so you come back to and you go, okay, what are the policies and procedures? You know, if, if you come to me and say, Hey Matt. please don't sell to my mother. She's a known and the term is drunkard. I legally cannot sell to that person. Oh, really? And we still need a picture of them. Just figure last year we had about 700, 000 people through the front door. Oh, right. So if somebody's coming in at nine in the morning, it's a different crew that's working at nine at night. We really don't have a way of tracking. We do tell people no more than two stops a day. Cause we had some people that would be out on college and get three bucks and come get something at breakfast and come back at lunch and dinner. And the other one we do is we also, and we try not to single people out, but when you think about places that get robbed, it's banks, convenience stores, and us. So we are sizing people up as they walk through the door. Yeah, how threatening are you? You know, is this somebody we know who's known to be drunk and belligerent? Is this a soccer mom? Is this person 21? Is this person intoxicated? Um, we had a guy early November, first time ever in 23 years, came in totally disheveled. One of our guys went up just said, Hey, if you need anything, I'm here to help. And that was the switch that set him off. Okay. And he grabbed a bottle. I mean, this went from zero to 60, grabbed a bottle, went at one of our guys and our guys pepper sprayed him in the store. Nice. Thank God they were prepared. They were prepared. We put pepper spray under all the registers about four years ago just to, you know, if somebody comes in with a gun or a knife, give them whatever they want, get them out of here, gift wrap it. I don't care. Right. Nobody needs to get hurt. But the, and we really noticed it pre COVID with some of our transient population that were drunk or high or just troubled. Just troubled. Yeah. No. I mean, I think I almost ever, I'm sure everybody listening has been confronted by a belligerent Transient person in Fort Collins or Loveland or somewhere in their lifetime and didn't like it no Again, I feel bad because that population, you know, well, it's mostly a mental health crisis I mean we used to have there's a the state hospital in North Dakota is in Jamestown Which is where I'm from and my my uncle was a member of the state hospital for a while and stuff because he was a Risky person for the population, you know, and we don't really have that anymore. We just Let them in and out of prison and to fuck with people in the meantime Mostly in the the issue too is like on college. We can do nothing. You know, there's a 15 foot easement It's public right away right now Once you're off that easement, we can no trespass people But right the problem is Fort Collins PD has other things to deal with totally So by the time it gets to them mean needed being needed. Yeah Shits hit the fan. When seconds matter, the police are only minutes away. And, you know, some of our guys, I'm like, guys, we don't accost people, we don't chase people down. I blew my knee out three years ago with a 14 year old shoplifter. It was like watching my daughter come in and load her backpack full of stuff. In hindsight I should have let him have the 90 bucks worth of stuff, because I caught him from here to, you know, 30 feet, but when I grabbed his backpack, he fell down. I didn't, I mean, it was a kid. I didn't mean, but when he went down, my legs got tied up. I went down. He was trying to fight you. And it's like wrestling your kids. Like, dude, just stop. Like, please, I outweigh you by 120 pounds. Stop. And the police get there. He's trying to fight them. And by the time I get inside, my right knee is the size of like a watermelon. Oh, shoot, dude. This isn't your local experience, is it? Cause we, but it wasn't worth it. No, right. 90 bucks. I would gladly not have my knee look like a football. Then I had to do a workman's comp claim on myself and then go to, and I will say Concentra is bad a rap as they got. My guy there for pt because I had to go do PT for like four months. Right. His name's Brian. He was awesome. But the whole situation, and then I get home and my kids, after they found out I'm okay, they're like, dad, did you get a junior sheriff's badge? Right. And they're, they're fucking with me. I'm a justice enforcer too though.'cause I can't help it. I, if I see injustice occurring, I have to try to stop it. Well, and then they're giving me, they're like, you got beat up by a 14-year-old. And I'm like, oh my God, my kids. Like shamed me enough. And then Lindsay said, my wife, she was like, Matt, you know, what if that guy had a knife? Right. And you're like, well, but the adrenaline quick stabby, stabby, and then you're done. And it, nothing is worth it. So with our team, you know, we, we do have that population and. If somebody shoplifted, let them have it. Now, if you can get a picture, get a video, you know, we can size them up later. If we have to remove people from the store, normally there's enough of us. We just ask people to leave. Yeah. You know, we need you to leave. The herd matters. I mean, that's, it works for wildebeest, right? It really works. And then. Like I was talking about, if somebody comes in and says, Hey, please do not serve this family member. Here's a photo of them. Here's a data, because we need more than just a name. Yeah. If it's Joe Smith. And you flag them, because you have, I mean, if somebody's in all the time, they're probably a member, right? No, we've got them in the frequent shopper list. We've also got them, um, you know, with the picture, you 32 people. Hey guys, we're not serving this person anymore. Yeah. We'll be really nice about it. We're not doing this. And we've had, you know, over the years, we had one gentleman who, you know, we got drug into a lawsuit. He, he'd been remarried and his wife was buying stuff. And then the family asked us, we got subpoenaed to turn over her either. Right? Well, it was after he'd passed. The family found out exactly how much had been purchased. And so we had to turn over all our records to the state and say, Wow. Here's, here's like three years worth of shopping records. Right. Well, and then you also don't know whether that person throws a lot of parties, right? Like, like one thing I know about Ptarmigan. Mm hmm. Is that, like, the, the sport in Ptarmigan is driving your golf cart from one house to the next, uh, while drinking way too much at each of the stops. For the most, not everybody, I'm not saying everybody, but, you know, that's a, a pretty fun neighborhood to live in if you like to drive your golf cart around and drink too much. Well, and, I tell people, I'm like, guys, you know, when you're young, that behavior, you can do really between 18 and 25, but after 25, you can do that once in a while. Once a month, I know if I have a beer too much, it wrecks me. Like not even getting drunk, just one too many as I get older, it hurts. So, you know, we, we constantly deal with our team. Of, you know, what we do tip certification, so responsible vendor training. We're also, in some ways, have it better than our on premise friends. Because people come, you get a bottle of bourbon, you go home. What you do with it, I have no idea. But our on premise friends, if somebody comes in every night after work and has four drinks, that's a different situation. I was just thinking to myself, I've probably never ever purchased anything from Wilbur's. While I was drinking, like I, well, I would blow 0. 0 or lower, but Aggies on the other hand being five blocks from my house, uh, that, and we have a couple of annual parties and things. And we've been known to understock sometimes with too many people and stuff. And then it's like, who wants to go on a walking trip to Aggies? Um, so yeah, sorry, Aggies. Thanks for always. Uh, but we're not out of line and that's like, that's the difference, right? Like drunk for me now is like. Three IPAs in two hours. Like, in the old days, that was like, it was like a 12 pack in three hours or something. You talk about old days. I've got a nephew. He's 22. Big guy. Played O line. Right. Football guy. Him and his buddies pregame as a 12 pack of, like, White Claw. That's what they drink before they go to the bar. And I'm like Brendan really like drink beer. He's like, but these are, they're lighter and less calories and stuff, but you talk about how things change now. He's a big whiskey guy, but he's like, Hey, if we're all going to the bar, you know, nowadays, I know how to be at the right level with White Claw. Yes. I know 12 is my number. What's funny. Cause on the 4th of July, he shows up with, I think it was high noon or something. And I'm like, Brendan, like, really? Like. Things have changed to think about in the early 2000s when you were out and you were gonna get a cab Well, that was like a six hour ordeal. All right, totally and now there is no excuse to drive drunk Yeah, actually, I wouldn't live in Old Town Fort Collins except for the fact that cabs were such a pain in the ass Mm hmm. I was like, I'm just not gonna risk it Ever again. And I can't risk waiting three hours for a cab when I want to go home. And so I just have to go to where I want to, can walk home from. Mm hmm. Or ride your bike. Or ride my bicycle. Which is still technically illegal, but you're only gonna hurt yourself. Right. You're not gonna Well, and that's the libertarian philosophy, right? Do no harm. Like, I, sorry, but I feel like I should have a right to ride my bike with a few too many. Yeah. At least higher than Driving my car. Point two. I'm good with point two. Like, I keep it in that. And I'm not gonna judge, but I tell people, I'm like, now with, you know, all the apps and everything, things, cause I know I probably made some bad choices in my youth that now it's really not acceptable for sure. So talk to me about business degrees and stuff, right? You're already in business. You've got this liquor store you're growing on the second location and stuff. And then during you're getting your master's in business administration. Tell me, I guess, how much do you value that? Secondary education, post secondary education, like, how much of the success, I would say Lillard's has been a flagship in the booze business here in Fort Collins for years, right? Like, How much of that is good location and stuff and how much of it is I learned a lot of things from Wyoming? Thanks. So, you know, it's interesting because I am even when I have my landscaping business, which I love that We could mow 120 yards in two and a half days a week. Well that put me really high school college I mean you worked your ass off, but you were fit and you were two and a half days a week Yeah, the rest of your time you could Yeah, make good money, right? But it was one of those things where it was a young person's job. Right. You know, you realized, Hey, I can't do this forever. And, uh, but even in that early on, you learned you're only as good as your team, you know, and there were times, how did you put the lawnmower through the fence? Exactly. Like how did this happen? And so I was blessed to get in. I grew up in the liquor business, you know, whether, whether or not I had a choice, it was kind of in my blood. Sure. I think my first winery, I was six months old. You know, we went to Germany in 7th grade to wineries, um, Right. You know, with an international company in high school. Dad, are you in Italy? Are you in France? Are you in San Francisco? Right. And we have baseball on Tuesday and Thursday if you're in town. Right. And that was ahead of the curve, too. Like, before wines were even super popular. Mm hmm. So, like, you knew things about stuff that Nobody had even heard of hardly at the time. Well in world class things like Moët, Champagne, Clicquot, Dom Perignon. I remember when the classic malts of Scotland, so Oban, Lagavulin, Talisker, Glenkinchi, Dalwini, all these single malt scotches. They were in our house. And so dad, he would, I think he had six states at once. So we'd go do bar surveys. So he'd go into a restaurant and he'd end up BSing with, you know, Jay at Jay's or, you know, whoever at whatever restaurant. And I'd be the guy going, okay, dad, they're missing Johnny Walker, black and green. Cause no, nobody knew me. And I was like 13. You know what he carries. So you're like, okay, they got doers, they got Johnny Walker red, but they're missing Johnny black. They don't have Moet by the glass. And it was actually a lot of fun on your go to work with dad days. Right. That's wild. So I'll take it a step further and, um, Sheflin had a New York office and a San Francisco office. And growing up in Colorado, I was a baseball guy. I still am a baseball guy. We didn't have baseball till, I want to say middle school. Sixth or seventh grade when the Rockies expansion happened. Sure. Right. So, every year if I would get good enough grades, Sheflin would buy the Oakland Athletic tickets, quote unquote, under my name. And they'd allow me to come out for their annual meetings and catch a series. What a special, I didn't think I recognized the specialness of your dad's role with them. Well, and it was a lot of, when you think of sporting events, who promotes there? Beer and wine. Now wine, but less so earlier, now liquor. Yeah, I'm surprised the pharmaceuticals haven't started. Well, the pot, the pot guys will be next. Right. I'm just thinking oxy and stuff. Anyway, uh. So, so growing up, I, I always knew that it was an opportunity to come in here. Yeah. And so, I went to Mesa, loved Grand Junction, but too far from home. I can't say enough good things about Front Range Community College. Yeah. I still tell people, um, you know, I did some international studies there with Brian Todd Carey and John Jenkins and we actually, Wilbur's has a, um, I guess it would be a scholarship program at Front Range. Okay. Through Wilbur's. And then went to CSU. I loved the business school, but it was really hard because I got my associates and To get in the business school. You had to have like stats and calc and all these classes that I sucked at So I could only take business classes in the summer and then I had to get my other stuff and finally got in the business School and you know calc was hard for me to stats to Three times to get that. I kept getting like 77, 78, but can I just get like a gentleman's be like, just throw me the bone here. So when I had the opportunity to go back for my graduate degree, it was kind of like your undergrad since I had a business degree on, on steroids. But it really allowed me the opportunity to go into, hey, what are the parts I didn't pay enough attention to? What are the parts now running the businesses that I know I'm not good at? I mean, finance was one where I kind of doubled down. Some of the accounting stuff. Sure. You know, in the olden days you had your. T charts and Well, and knowing what you're talking about when you're talking to a banker about a thing or whatever, that matters. Well, it matters, and it's so important because Right. That's why it matters. Those are, those are things that, you know, I argue all the time. My, my daughter, like I said, is a junior at Love and High, but I'm like, guys, nobody talks financial literacy. Nobody talks credit scores. Nobody talks how to buy a car or balance your checkbook. And I was raised learning to do those things, but my daughter's been going to the banker with me since she was like two years old. Yeah. And I think that young people realizing, yes, you have to buy it for X, mark it up Y, and sell it for Z, but how do you, you know, HR compliance? Right. Well, and frankly, even part of the conversation that led to this podcast is You sharing with me that hey, you know, we were upper 40s at the beginning of the year and or whatever and then with the Changes to the industry the changes to what we can do now. We're in our low 30s In terms of employee count. And what's the future? Not because I want to, but because that's what needs to happen for us to still be profitable, sustainable. Well, and, and I come back to, I've told people, um, you know, Joe Gebhardt from Davidson, Gebhardt, Chevy, and Loveland. Yeah. I'll never forget my senior year, he came into our marketing class and he said, guys, profit is not a four letter word. Ha ha ha. It's a five letter word. And without it, business does not survive. And so, looking at that, going, you know what? I don't really need a graduate degree. I've got the bandwidth. I'm enjoying it. And as an entrepreneur, as a, as a team leader, realizing that Things change and that constant evolution of like, let's be honest, is Wilbur's going to be here in 10 or 15 years? I hope so. I love my job, but if I ever have to go get a job or go do something else, it's much easier to have something and not need it than need it and not have it. It's like when you need a loan, when you go to the bank and you actually need it, it's really hard to get. It's hard to really measure necessarily how much impact your MBA has had. But You're still darn glad you have it is what I think I'm hearing. I love it. And I talked about going back for my PhD Oh, and my wife said, you know, you're your second wife better be really patient I guess I'm not going back. Maybe an extra masters. Well, but what would you study? I do business I I think the you know, the language of business the art of business The constant evolution of when you look at the headwinds businesses have today verse Talked four years ago going into COVID or coming out of it. Right. Verse 2008 slowdown, you know, whether it's real estate whether it's yeah. Yeah, you know, there's so many things It's a dance and I think it's such a Regardless of industry, most businesses have the same five or six problems. It's people issues, either internal or customers. It's not enough sales or too much sales and too much growth. Or policies and procedures. And, I mean, I know there's a thousand nuances. But when you talk with business leaders, and we have this discussion. And regulatory environment. Regulatory. Right, it's the first slap in the face for you on that front. Well, taxes. In a way. Minimum wage. Right. You know, I tell people, we don't pay minimum wage. But You know, when all of a sudden, January 13 whatever to 14, it puts pressure on teams, because Well, if you've got somebody that was paying, getting paid 16, that means they were 3 ahead of minimum wage, now they're a buck and a half. Mm hmm. And they, having these conversations humanely with people and going, Okay, I'm not opposed to paying more, but what Extra value is the business going to get because it's, you know, minimum wage, let's be honest, was never meant to be livable, right? It was meant for kids and to get people's feet in the door. I don't know any businesses in town paying minimum wage because the market works, right? But your guy who's making 22 bucks, he's the one who gets squeezed. Totally. Because you're forced to spend extra money on somebody who doesn't know shit about shit. You know, I got a college kid coming in the door who wants to work some weekends and holidays. Well, I'm forced. I, my budget's X and I'm being forced to spend more here. Well, that doesn't mean everybody gets that right. And you, unfortunately, when we talk about financial literacy, that's not something they teach in schools. Right. Well, and which makes a challenging place for you, because like when I think about Wilbur's brand, I think about the best educated staff, right? Like it's the place where if I actually want some advice and some feedback about this or about that, they will just know. Um, and that's worth a little more in, in many occasions, but. Not if that isn't the market doesn't value it. I remember when I started, sorry to drift, but when I started my, my food trailer business, um, I was going to do, you know, international fusion, but local sourcing, um, and so I had a local pork source that was. Best, uh, I don't know, vegan pigs or something, eating bean sprouts and stuff, but that, it was just so much better than the pork you could buy at King Soopers. The customers didn't even want to pay 10 percent more for my locally sourced meatballs. They wanted to pay 0 percent more. And they were, but it was, but it cost twice as much, you know, so there's, there's a certain place where you're, how much can you spend to carry that brand of having the best advice, right? Well, and it, it's hard because, and we had this, we have, we have partners. When we moved in 2004, we had to go raise equity. Gotcha. I mean, we had to sell stock, basically. Right, right. And, you know, in our shareholder meeting, This fall, like I told him, I said, guys, it's one thing we've talked for 20 some years about doing the right thing. It's a hell of a lot harder. Actually doing a lot more expensive. Yeah. And so taking care of team and finding, because our team, I appreciate the compliment, but Jeff, our beer guy, he's one of the best in the country, you know, whether you look at Frankie or Dave with wine team, you know, there's a certain amount of churn at the front of the house, but there's three of us who have been there 24 years. Wow. I think there's seven or eight have been there over a decade. Nice. And like I tell people, I'm like, guys, I'd be a fool to think Wilbur's has been successful because of just me or just my dad and I are just, it is a building a culture and realizing there's, there's seasons. And there's, there's people who are going to come and go, and when people move on, we, we want to help them, you know, if people have worked hard with us, I'll bend over backwards to help them get what, whatever direction they want to go. Yeah. Now that's not everybody. Sometimes there's, you know, folks, Hey, I need a job for six months or a junior year. And again, you embrace people's individuality to a certain extent. You know, we have to bring it in a little bit. Right. Um, we can't get too crazy, but. saying, Hey, what direction do you want to go? How do we build? Yes, we're selling adult beverages, but how do we build a culture, which is a word I think that gets, I mean it's important, but people beat it to death, but truly a culture of don't be scared to take chances, you know, don't be scared to try something new. I remember when Seltzers came out truly in White Claw. Jeff was like, so it's vodka that tastes like water. And I'm like, yeah, it is. And, you know, you go out there. Tastes like bubble water with vodka. Yes, and they're really light. Now my nephew loves them. But, realize those trends change. You know, realize that at one point Australia was hot and now we can't give it away. Or bourbon. Fifteen years ago. Nobody cared. It was all vodka, or flavored vodka. Right. Or, you know, whatever those fads are. Yeah, by the way, thanks for that, Blanton's. It's so delicious, I'm gonna have a little bit more. It's, it's good. Sorry folks who are watching this. We get very little, but I had to bring a housewarming gift. Oh, it's so nice, yeah. So, but how do you continue to be part of the community? and give back to the community, whether it's through philanthropic activity, you know, we're, we're really blessed because we deal with, I want to say 300 different nonprofits. Wilbur's does. And it's, it's, we don't just write checks, but we're able to offer things at a discount with free ice and delivery and returns and, you know, silent auction giveaways, stuff like that, silent auction, or, you know, different stuff we can do. We have a breast cancer fund at UC health. We set up, um, our two biggest, really our three biggest ones are pathways hospice who, you know, both my grandparents needed hospice. And until you use hospice, you don't understand what they do. My neighbor was a hospice nurse for years and it totally informed my awareness. It, they are angels, for lack of a better word. You know, um, I sit on the board of the McKee Foundation and Loveland, which again, helps with health. And now that Banner's up in Fort Collins, I tell people, I'm like, as you see health or Banner, they're both good. You know, if you get sick here, you've got good health care and our team, whether it's my kids, my parents, myself, my neighbors, our team at work, everybody needs good health care when it's their time. But then the countless other ones, you know, we, we don't do a whole lot with youth. because yeah, just the stigma, the local experience podcast could use the foundation. I mean, the local experience podcast foundation could use a wealthy donor just to keep our guests properly hydrated, properly. Yes. No one would go thirsty, but you know. Going going back to those we've been able to say what are our three or four art? Like I said our breast cancer fund at UC health that I'm so proud of because Susan B Komen kicks in once you're here but how about somebody who maybe needs the copay or a day off of work or the kids to go to a babysitter and maybe the funds aren't there and those are things where We're a great conduit because we deal with so many different organizations, so many different people that, you know, it's kind of like cheers, except for, you're not bellying up to the bar. Yeah. No, you can just by sharing your support, you can help spread the word. And make introductions, you know, and sometimes we introduce people and they hate each other and I go, Hey, this is not me. You guys don't like each other, but sometimes they love each other and then they end up working together or working for each other. And that's. That's the joy of what we get to bring to the table. Tell me about, like, shrinking a This probably This year is probably the first year you've shrunk your team. I mean, in all of your years of business, I suspect. First time. Um, you know, we've ebbed and flowed, you know, there's different times, um, but not a consistent, I mean, almost a 15 to 20 ish, 15 percent shrink, 20 percent shrink in your team. It's about 30%. Oh yeah. Yeah. And part of it is we, you know, we, we were on the ballot. We won two of them. You know, the third party delivery, which we didn't think Amazon and Grubhub were going to be good stewards of delivering alcohol to responsible adults. Um, unlimited licensing, which really would have helped Amazon, Walmart, Total Wine More. Nobody local. And so we were able to win those. The wine and grocery stores. If you do a case, talking about studies, a case study of buying an election. Okay. Our opponent spent 32 million dollars. And you spent? 780, 000. Right. And they won by 26, 000 votes. Six tenths of a percent. Now we have to live with that. I go back to that book, who moved my cheese? I can be pissed off and bitter, or we can get better, but we had to look at what our number one expenses and that is our team. Number two, um, Stan Kroenke owns our building. So he, he's probably not going to negotiate a lot with us. Never met the man. I'm sure he's delightful, but. Billionaires don't give things away a lot. Right. We had to look at it and say, Hey, if we're going to be down X in revenue, how do we do this thoughtful? Yeah. You know, you don't want to just come in and heads roll. Right. You know, are there any people that needed to leave the team? There were a couple. And we'd acquired over COVID and honestly, they weren't happy and we weren't happy. Happy to let them find their next happy place. Yeah. And hey, you know, what, what are your goals? Cause I don't think it's here and what's our goals and how do we make this dance work? And then doing it correctly through attrition and moving people around because there's, there's some people who are going to make their career at Wilbur's, and I'm so proud of that. But there's also a responsibility of our team of, hey, you have to do certain things to make a career here as well. And so it's been really hard, um, kind of resizing because you, there's people you love and you care about. Right. That's the worst, right? Like having to depart somebody that Do you wish could stay? We've been really blessed. We didn't have to do but one of those. And that one, it was agreed upon of, hey, it's not working for me. And they had a lot of other opportunities probably, right? And historically, retail is grueling. Yeah. And it's a stepping stone to better things. Yeah, for sure. You know, I tell people, we're open every day of the year but Christmas. I have people there from 7am to 11pm, 6 days a week, and 7 to 7 on Sunday. Wow. So there's a lot of moving pieces that we're able to be flexible. We're always recruiting because it is retail, you know, whether it's through CSU or different things of you want to surround yourself with good people, but just realizing you're going to have to do it with less people. Yeah. Yeah. Do you, um, do you feel like the team has stayed well connected through that? A lot of extra communications I assume is like as that happens and are just shorter shifts and things like that like How does that feel because they're they don't they only know each other when they're on the same floor at the same time, right? Like that's an interesting dynamic for you. So it's at first nobody likes it I don't like it the team doesn't like it but being able to do it thoughtfully And respectfully of different things. We've, we've done a lot moving, you know, because we don't open until nine, we're open until 10 at night. We've moved a lot of people more to the middle of the day, you know, a lot of nine to sixes, 10 to sevens. We're a little shy in the morning. We're a little shy at night, but that way, you know, somebody who needs to earn a living is able to earn a living. You know, we're not going to work people six and seven days a week, except for. Christmas and New Year's weeks, but most of the time we're like, you know, this is 40 to 42 hours. You got X amount of PTO. You've got this, you've got that. We, we want it to work for people. Um, and we want it. We're to be a place where people want to be. So that's been threading the needle, you know, some people I get it, you know Well that this isn't how we used to do it and I go you're right But we had 90 years worth of rules thrown out the window last year. Yeah Is it just a done deal? Like can't take your finger back out of that dike kind of thing like they'll never go back the other way You know, it's this is gonna sound bad, but the market is gonna take The market is going to shake out and ultimately, and I hate to be doom and gloom, but it is like with however many industries. There might be less liquor stores in the future. There's going to be less. There's going to be more of that going towards really large companies. Yeah. And, you know, Aggie could disappear. Aggie could, or, you know, I think there's probably five or six stores in Fort Collins that are really on the verge. Um, I know, I tell people, I'm like, guys, last year we lost money through the first three quarters. That is not a recipe for a great business model. And we can't do that again. Like, we adjusted, but we did it thoughtfully. And we didn't do it quick enough. But as the market shifts, there's going to be winners, and there's going to be losers. And, you know, I tell people, I'm like, guys, it's not as simple as, here's my keys, here's my spot back. You know, people are going to lose their house, their car, their marriage. People will end up killing themselves as they lose these businesses and it's, it's not just them, it's not just their families, you know, liquor stores was one of the last bastions of the American dream of, you know, somebody who may be immigrated here, who could get in and really build something for them and their family. There's not a lot of opportunities for small businesses like that anymore. I mean, I think restaurants is another one, but yeah, with a capital investment required for a restaurant is. Pretty stiff. It's huge. Yeah. So it's, it's going to take a few years. Yeah, business wasn't as hard 30 years ago. Well, there was To get started, especially. I think, I think to get started, I think, you know, I look at our lease. You know, we have to renegotiate this year and I'm not looking forward to it. You think they're going to want more? Oh. Even though retail is struggling and stuff? Retail is struggling, but you're in a prime location. You know, and, uh, I drove by the new Kmart or the old Kmart, the new King Soopers, that's coming along. You know, Midtown, I will tell you, we're, we're blessed to live where we are, you know, as we get to travel and, you know, sometimes I don't always like what I see, but it's better to be growing than it is to be shrinking. Yeah. And you can ask the Midwest about that. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. We were just in Chicago, and I'm like, I'm in great city, but it's not working Yeah, when there's a flight of Entrepreneurs when there's a flight of business when there's a capital of people what's going on with New York City? Like I hear the apartment rents and stuff are still like stupid numbers, but aren't they struggling shouldn't it? If you turn in there, why is New York interesting? You know, I, I, I don't know enough about it. Like, I, I pretend to know real estate in northern Colorado. Cause my wife and I do single family rentals. Oh, okay. But a city like New York, I think there's just so many I mean, it's a melting pot of literally global money. Yeah, that makes the difference. Um, so before we get to the closing segments, I want to zoom back to like little Matt, like little seven year old Matt. Tell me about that guy. Before the, the, he started, he started going on, on, uh, marketing calls with clients with his dad on, on Take Matt to Work Day. You know, looking internally, you, you know, how you view yourself is not always right. You know, there's certain times I'm like, oh, that was really funny, and my kids tell me I'm not. But I think it's hilarious. Um, you know, my, my kids were telling a joke the other day that, A good family friend of ours tells a story. I was about six years old and I went over and picked up his pine cones for him and then knocked on the door and tried to sell them to him. I think Bob bought them because Bob's a really gracious man, but I'd not heard that story till about two years ago. And when my kids heard that, I just, you know, growing up in a loved one in the eighties, you know, my, I got to work with my hero for. Almost 20 years with my father, you know, I'm, I'm close with my kids. I'm close with my parents. My sister lives in town. I think at the root of it all, I just watched what my parents did. My mom's a nurse. My dad was in business and said, Hey, I really liked this. I like where I live. I love my family. This is. Where I want to be this is home already early on anyway back then and you know It's other opportunities have come up and I'm like, I really love Living here. Yeah, and this is this all I know. Yeah one more question You've been involved with peer advisory for quite a few years, probably back into the late 2000s at least or so, or maybe, I don't know. Off and on different things for probably 15 years. Is that right? Tell me about that experience. Uh, you don't really know my brand, right? Local Think Tank. But you've been an advocate and an encourager ever since we've really known about each other. And so tell me about what that has done in your world, maybe even contrast it to that MBA. So. I'm in Vistage, and you know Nancy, I know Nancy. Nancy, um Gears, she just got remarried. Oh, congratulations, Nancy. I've known Nancy If you're a listener. One of my dearest I love Nancy. And I met Nancy when I was probably a 20 year old kid. Is that right? I, I did her, her wedding. And I, I tell her all the time, I'm like, I'll never forget, I was sweating my ass off getting all this stuff into Mark Burke's backyard from Burke Cleaners. Okay. And he had about six inches of gravel that I couldn't get the dolly through. So I like dumped the dolly. It was, the wedding was beautiful. Nancy and I have been friends forever. Okay. But when Nancy left her prior career and went into peer to peer coaching, basically. I heard some of that story with with Jennifer Lewis. I didn't really realize that level of that connection before. And when it was fun because Nancy, you know, she was in menswear, but she also did retail like She, probably with some of your clients, she brought a level of not, I have the answers, but here I know somebody you should talk to. And I think that, you know, Mike Pierce, who used to do, you know, the salt and pepper lunches. Yeah. That was an early rendition of it, of how do we get your more seasoned business veterans in the room with your up and coming. You know, Mike really started them. That should happen again. It really should. I was talking with Mike about it about a month ago. Really? And, you know, by the way, Mike put a ton of work into getting those together. And then, I kind of, I think it ran for like 10 or 11 years until COVID kind of messed it up. Yeah, yeah. That, that interaction to be able to get into a room, especially as a younger business person and have people you're like, I saw that guy in the newspaper, or that's Mark Driscoll, or that's Harry Devereaux with home state bank, or some of these folks that quite honestly, for me to get time with would have never happened. And all of a sudden you could, it wasn't leads driven. It wasn't networking. It was a truly let's have lunch. Let's get to know each other. Hey, Harry, if you ever need this, or hey, Matt, you need this. And that communication. Because at that point, you know, the Harry's of the world, or the Mike Pierce's of the world, or John Hintzman, who had done and seen multiple generations of business stuff to be able to pick their brain. And so, I joined Vistage, I want to say in 2013 or 2014. And I've, I've told people I am like the cheerleader of it, of the peer advocate group, of the steel sharpened steel, of the, hey, I am going through some stuff. Has anybody else done this and we do it as an industry. I sit on, I'm the vice president of wine and spirits guild of America. I was wondering, yeah, have you done industry groups too? So that's, that's a group of independent retailers nationwide that do 3 billion a year in retail sales. Then at the state level, it's a little hard to do with antitrust and stuff like that. But, I sit on the board of American Beverage Licensees, so we help shape alcohol regulation nationwide. Vistage here in town, cause it's, it's amazing. You'll be at a table with somebody who's running a non profit, and you go, What, what do they know? Well, non profits. An even bigger business than your business. Yeah. And they're, you know, Judy Calhoun, who ran the Weldon Humane Society. Yeah, she just merged the Weldon. Yeah. Ran? Or runs? She's still around? She's still running it. Okay. So she was running it, then she left, she went to hospice, then she went back. And Judy and I had some of the best conversations, because the issues she's having are the same as the roofing contractor. Right. And the roofing contractor, believe it or not, is having the same issue as the banker. You know, and different, different things. So these peer advisory groups, the relationships, because being a leader is. Lonely. Sometimes. Yeah, it can be. And there's certain times, I tell people all the time, I don't know what I'm doing half the time. But if you pretend you know what you're doing, it's amazing. You go, we're going this direction. I usually only say 20 percent of the time. I don't know, but yeah. But half the time you're like, well, shit, that's new. I've not dealt with this one before. Um, in that, that support group that when I worked with my dad, there were certain things I could talk to my dad about, but there were also things that steal your dad. Yeah, yeah. And when my dad and I get into it, I couldn't bring it home because if I unloaded about how my dad was being a dick, well, then your wife's getting a picture painted and his grandkids treated you that way. And that was just me getting it off my chest. So some of these groups, and you know, there's people you're going to gel with better than others, but to be able to call people and be like, you work with your uncle. Or you work with your dad or, hey, you're leasing property from your cousin in different industries and go, Hey, have you ever experienced this? And you, you can't always go to your spouse. You can't go to your dad. You can't always go to your partners. And that was the one thing when dad was at Wilbur's, you had two engaged, active participating owners. That once dad left and I love our team But there's certain times that the right decision is not the easy decision for sure And so being able to go to some of these people and you know I'm sure some of your groups people have come and gone and there's different seasons Sure, and there's some people you're like, you know, that person's a wonderful or some Maybe you don't feel that way about it. Yeah. But you at least I've been the mixologist the whole time. And so my job is to try to, try to keep the riff raff out the best I can. But yeah. And not everybody mixes with everybody. So it's like, a person that wasn't a good fit in one group might be an amazing fit in a different group. That's Or a company. What season is it? Right. Because I tell people, when we were going through the ballot stuff, I was cranky for about a whole year. I don't doubt it. And I couldn't do it at home. I couldn't be cranky at work. But there were times I was like, I just want to sit in a room by myself. I need my seven minutes to be a bitch session right now. Or just not. Hey, you know, guys, I really need something or I need nothing at all. I'm here to help. There were just certain times, even with Vistage, I think in 2022, I told Nancy, I said, you know, I'm going to be at some meetings and I'm going to listen intently, but I'm not going to add my two cents worth because right now I'm jaded and I don't think I'm going to help this conversation, you know, and then there's other times. You're part of the conversation and you're like, holy cow. I actually know what I'm talking about. Oh, yeah, that's cool thing So so I don't know when you've helped somebody to well and it's at the end of the day I love what I get to do entrepreneurship is incredible, but it's a lifestyle. It's not a job Do you think either one of your kids wants to take it over? I don't know and I've told them I said guys if we can like that's a loaded question, right? Because if we can figure this out I'd love to have the kids. Three, I mean, how often do you hear of three generations at a business? Yeah. Um, over Christmas, I was in Longmont. I was running a register. My son and daughter were pushing carts because they can't touch product. Right. And my dad had a Santa hat on giving out eggnog singles. Right. And like I told people, I said, where else can you have three generations of one family in a building providing a service or a product that people actually really want to spend time with their families? Fair enough. So, hopefully, if they want to do it, I'd, I'd encourage them. I, I can't say enough about schooling. You know, I know it's not for everybody. Great options. Well, and Maybe it'll be an option. Maybe an option, and maybe not. You know, at the end of the day, if they say, You know what, Dad? Because I, I think that's what you're seeing with a lot of folks my dad's era. Their kids aren't getting in the business. Yeah. Because they go, I don't want the life. I watch dad live, or mom live. That's true. Um, I'm going to call a short break because I have to go pee, and then we will come back. Perfect. Thank you. That's the scary part of it all. I was uh, I got two DUIs in college. One second year, and one The night before I got my first job offer, after I'd already graduated. And I had to tell the lady, I was like, Uh, I really am so thankful for the offer, But I do have to tell you that last night I got a DUI, And it's my second, and I'll probably lose my driver's license for a year. And she was like, well, Um, you were our first candidate out of six, And we'll figure it out. Thanks for having the integrity to tell me. Yeah, and if you're listening Beth, thanks for not unhiring me After that phone call even though I didn't stick around at the bank too long Well, it's funny cuz people to be on our drivers policy You have to have a clean driving record, you know, and I get plenty of speeding tickets, but not other tickets Yeah, but I bet over the years probably half of our staff has had some sort of infraction Right, and I'm like I see you can work here But you can't drive and, you know, we go back to that. How do you sell a product? We've had that conversation with people and said, Hey, if you have a drug or alcohol problem, this isn't the place for you, right? You know, and not saying that we probably don't indulge more than your average sure. But it's a slippery slope totally and yeah, you know, we've had people we've you know, we've had team members over the years We've had help go to rehab. We've had Unfortunately, some of our vendors I've had three die in the last ten years well, and you know you you go back to the Excesses. Yeah, and after watching that firsthand It's horrific. Well, it's like working in a bar, right? Like, most people that work in bar type settings have a drinking problem, too. I mean, I don't know if it's 50 percent most or 70 percent most or what, but it's most, I think. And it's Not in your settings as much, right, because it's a retail environment, not the same. Well, and we, we went about 10 years ago. Um, I told our team zero tolerance for drinking, you know, used to be, Hey, if you want to have a beer at lunch, that's great. But then we, we had some team members, they were going down to the old Mulligans and, you know, 15, they'd have a shot of fireball and come back and brush their teeth. And I'm like, and go to lunch and have a beer. And, you know, throughout their shift, nobody was drunk, but they'd had three to five drinks. And I said, guys, No more, including me. If I go to a wine luncheon, I'm done and I don't even drink at those, but if we're going to promote. It is retail. Can you name another retail establishment that would let you drink on the job? Right. You know, now it's different staff tasting. You know, you spit it out or whatever, but Yeah. You it's a, yeah, hard, hard slope to manage, I imagine. Well, and by going zero tolerance, it made it easier. Right. Of here's the line in the sand. Yeah. You know, and it's zero, you know, we had a young man and he was, he was closing the shop and closed up, went out. They all went and had drinks, but he forgot his coat at the store. So somebody came back and he'd had drinks and set off the alarm. And, you know, when the alarm goes, the police come, everybody comes. And, you know, that night I got the call and I'm like the, the best thing that happens is he gets tased. It only gets worse from there. Oh boy. And like I told him, I said, Hey, we're done. This was your one, you know a I don't care how much you did at home, but you never come back to the store I understand it was freezing cold and you left your coat and all this and even the officer is talking to he's like just so You know if he gets in his car, he's going to jail I said no I encouraged that but he didn't he had somebody with him and I just said hey, here's the deal We can't do that. You know if you're when we close the shop at night We're done for the night. Don't care if you forgot your phone or your purse or whatever. The doors are closed and the door is locked and all up. The money's all locked up. And that's the way it is. Yeah. And you'll get it. We'll be there in the morning. Um, I'm feeling like transition time to the faith, family, politics. Okay. Where would you like to start on that sequence? And it's as much or as little as you like. It's, I'll follow your lead. Let's talk about, uh, this lady that you met somewhere along the line and. I had a couple of children by where'd you find her? So Lynn, my wife, Lindsay. Yes. Um, we both grew up in Loveland. Okay. Uh, I, I was a senior when she was a freshman, but we didn't know each other. Okay. I knew her brothers. I knew her sisters. After I graduated, I coached deck at Loveland High School and I coached baseball for four years. Oh, what was your position by the way? So, I played kind of middle infield till my junior year and then played left and actually left field my junior and senior year. Okay, cool. So I tell people, I'm like, back in the 90s, I could run. That was, I was pretty fast in the 90s. That was, that was my sport too, a little bit. Uh, uh, that was my brush with fame was, uh, Darren Erstad. I struck him out a couple of times, uh, in little league. Really? Way back in the day. I was mostly a pitcher, a little bit of shortstop third. Okay. Yeah, I haven't, I can still throw a baseball a long ways, but not nearly as accurately as it used to be. See, uh, now I'm help But still a lot more accurately than most. Like, I was a center field home plate kind of thrower, yeah. Well, you're tall and lanky and Yeah, mom taught me how to throw. My mom founded our little league baseball team. Really? Yeah, a little family tidbit for ya. See, baseball And I get it, it's a slow sport. It's awesome to play, sucks to watch. Sorry. See, I love baseball, cause there's, there's 30 things going on behind each pitch. And that's where you, when you tell people break it down, it's a, it's America's past time for a reason. Yeah, yeah. And so now my son, he's playing and I, the last couple of years, I've been the assistant to the assistant assistant. So kept the kids from like spitting seeds on each other. And then, uh, one of the kids on the team, he's, he's actually going to be really special. He went up a league. So now I, I might actually get to be the first space coach this year. Oh. We'll see. Anyway, somehow we wandered away from Lindsey. So Lindsey and I, we met at a bar. And people go, Oh, you took your wife home from a bar. I'm like, no, she wanted nothing to do with me. Um, we were out and we were in old town and I think it was Sangria Rose that was above suite one 52 at the time. Sounds right. And we were walking by, it was a buddy's birthday. And she was with a friend who she was really good softball player. And I'd coached in DECA and I saw him and I was like, okay, they graduated last year. Did you quick math? Quick math. And I'm like, what's she doing at the bar? No, she's like 19. And, uh, you know, not that I'm going to bust anybody's chops, but it's like, Hey, what's going on Crystal? And, um, her brother turned out was a bouncer, so he'd let his sister and her friends in and so we were sitting there talking and then Lindsay, I think it took me a week or 10 days and we finally went out on a date and that was in 2002. So we've been together 22 years now. She's a nurse. Uh, she, she was a hospice nurse at Columbine in Loveland for about a decade when they had an Alzheimer's unit. And then, uh, just, I'm definitely married up without a doubt. So she's very patient and the world's. So I have a fascinating, uh, little parallel lives thing for us, Matt. So Jill is my wife, uh, 20 years last May, you saw her picture up there. And, uh, she was 19 and I was 25 when we met and I would hang out with her and her, my roommate who is also like 20 and then her twin sister, but Jill and I kind of developed a crush and then two years later when she was. Almost 21. I had been I had been dating the Trailhead, uh, door guys. Uh, his girlfriend's sister was my previous girlfriend. So we knew each other'cause we'd see each other at the, anyway, I, I took Jill to the Trailhead when she was only 20 by a month. And, but I knew Ryan and Ryan was like, what's up Barrett? And I was like, just, it's cool. It's Sunday night. And so I had all the cred with Jill. Uh, but anyway, so I also, like, this was literally like our first real date or second or third real date. And so we both met our wives in an underage drinking situation. Uh, It's, I don't know. Things were different. Now, Lindsey, she was, I've got better hair still, but, but other than that, we have some parallels. I'm just saying, it's a interesting, you've much better hair and you're taller and skinnier. And I also married up, uh, significantly. So Lindsey, she was 20 cause she was a year ahead, but our first trip to Napa, she was 20 and You know, when we planned it, I hadn't really thought that through because I think I was 22. And we'll just say she got carded once the whole weekend in Napa. Well, cause your dad had all the hookups and stuff, probably. Well, I, I don't know, but, you know, looking back, you're like, God, you could never get away with that. Not today. No way. I couldn't get away with it if I was pregnant. My age without an ID. Well now we go out to eat and people will Lindsay and I, I'll have a cocktail She'll, she barely drinks. But they'll always ID her. And I'm like, just throw me a bone. Like, I get it, I get it, I don't look anywhere remotely near 20. Or 21, but just, you're like, I'm only two and a half years older. You don't have to like, give me the grandpa look and then ask for my wife's ID. Yeah, I'm like, and it's, it's funny cause now that we were somewhere and they ask our daughter if she wanted a drink and I'm like, she just turned 16, right? So, uh, why did she, uh, fall in love with you? I think she questions herself still most days, but, uh, no. I think we have so much in common, and, and we've talked about this recently, um, during the holidays, it, it's our crazy time, because everybody drinks when they're with family. Right, right. But after the holidays is when I get my family. So this is like, that's why we scheduled this podcast right now. Exactly. It was perfect time. And we talked about this in what November. I think so. Yeah. And the fact that we enjoy so many things, we both love to travel, you know, she, it was funny after our, our first date, she's like, you're a bullshitter. And I'm like, of course, like retail called. Called a spade a spade after our first date and, um, we just hit it off that we enjoy so many of the same things and then, you know, raising our kids, we're in agreeance. Great compliment. And she is, um, you know, I tell people with her nursing background and just, she is an amazing mother and it's fun watching your kids because, at the end of the day, You're trying to raise good people, you know, that are going to go out there and be good stewards of the community and, you know, just not little shits and stuff, right? Do, do, I tell them all the time, I'm like, I show up and you'll be 85 percent ahead of most people, you know, show up and do it. You say you're going to do and be nice. You're going to, you're going to crush it. And compare, uh. Doing good with doing well, which one are you doing? Or both? It's good if you can do both. And just be a good person. Be thoughtful, be kind. Do all the things, you know, do unto others. Treat people with respect. Even if they may not be your cup of tea, cool. But be respectful of people. And so, over the, I can't believe it's been, this summer I'll be 22 years. And we got married and I think 09 and it's weird now that we've got a 16 year old because it and a brief moment, we're going to be emptying nesters. Right, yeah. And so we've, we've really said, okay, you know, you watch a lot of people grow apart and everything's about the kids. And how do you balance that and make sure that it's still your best friend. And all these years later, this sounds bad. I have no friends because I work, we do kids stuff. And then I'm married and I'm married to my best friend. You're married to your best friend, your kids. And I tell people all the time, like my kids at the end of the day, I want them to like me, but my number one job is to be dad. Okay. And sometimes I call the kids on their shit and they may not like it, but my job is to be dad and making sure that yes, you're focused on your children and your upbringing, good, positive people, but you also, when they leave, that all of a sudden you're not like, who's that? That's an interesting contrast of like. I want to be the best friend with my wife, my kids need me to be dad, kind of, uh, so, good for you. When I want him to like me, but there's certain times, you know, last week we, we got to go skiing and my son, he, he wiped out bad. Like he probably slid 150 yards. Oh. Like I thought he was hurt, and at that point, Dad, we can't do blues, I'm done, and I said, that's great, but there's one way down this mountain. And it's with our skis on. I don't care if we do big turns, if we do pizza, if we go down sideways, but we're not walking. And he was not happy. And the whole time, you know, he's, he was respectful, but you could tell. And I said, buddy, we, I'm not yelling at you, but this is where. showing up in grit. You know, it's skiing. It's not really grit, but you're going to have to do stuff. If your leg is broken, then we'll talk, but we're going to get down this mountain and I'll be here with you. I'm not doing it for you. I'll hold your hand if you want me to, but there's things, this is like a guy who says, I can't hit a curve ball. Well, you can hit a curve ball. It's all in your head. You just got to get past that in your head. And it, it took us a while and he was not happy. But at the end I said, buddy, I'm so proud of you that you stuck with it. And you know, that's what we talk with our team about sticking with it, whatever it is. Yeah. And if you don't like it, whether it's school, if you don't like CSU, don't go to CSU, go, go find a place you want. If you don't like your job, by all means, don't be miserable. Especially if it's here. Yeah. Go do what? Brings you joy. Yeah, so so Lindsay, you know, I can't believe it's that far out. I look in the mirror I'm like god, I'm in my mid 40s. I feel in my head. I'm 23 and then my body is Yeah, same same We always do often do at least one word descriptions of the children. Would you like to attempt that? Okay What's your 16 year old? She is Do you have a name for her, too? Olivia. Hi, Olivia. Olivia is, um We'll just call her Olivia Tenacious. Miss Olivia Tenacious. She is That's a pretty cool name, actually. If she becomes a rapper or something like that, that would totally be right. Wasn't it Tenacious D, Jack Black? Yeah, maybe. No, she, it would be Tenacious, and then Parker, it would probably be Insightful. Sometimes he is, he is smart. Like my father, my dad's an electrical engineer by trade. And Parker, there's certain times. I'm talking to him and I forget I'm talking to a kid, right? I mean, he just, and he, and he is, I mean, he's only five feet tall, right? There's certain times I'm like, okay, he really gets some things. Most 13 year olds don't, which is a problem sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, right. Like you can't say that in public, buddy. That's a, that's a problem. Like adults have been scolded enough by society to not say things like that, even though it is true. I get it. And some of your jokes, they're really funny, but you got to know your audience. You got to know your audience. There's a time and a place. And no, it's, it's really interesting. Cause all of a sudden you're like. You know, Olivia's halfway through her junior year. We're gonna start looking at universities soon. And, you know, what that looks like, I, I really don't know. But, trying to help them, you know, do what, do what you want. This is your oyster. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we'll help direct you, but you gotta follow your heart. Something for Parker, um, I like to say that almost everybody has, like, a, a filter between their brain and their mouth. But for some people that have an overdeveloped brain processing unit there has to be an overflow Valve created that goes from the brain directly to the mouth in order not to blow at the filter Parker might be one of those kind of people Well, it's it was really funny Couple months ago, he has, he has a math teacher that, um, I think he was really successful and I, I've never met the man, but I, I know every day it's Mr. Lindsey and there's a story and he was a successful business person who just got. Sick of it. Yeah. And I think he sold everything and he teaches because he loves it. Yeah. But he comes at it from a business standpoint. You know, there's 7th graders and they do stock market trading games and talk about real estate and time value of money and, you know, things that you're actually going to use. Yeah, yeah. And he wrote an email and he said, you know, of all the kids over all the years, your son is in the top four that keeps me coming back. Wow. And that was one of those proud moments. He said, you know, I'm assuming you're sarcastic because Parker is. I'm assuming you're this. I'm assuming I'm like, okay, you know, it didn't fall too far from the tree. Yeah, yeah. But that's when you're like, okay, I'm raising good people. I like that. And at the, at the end of the day, like, what we do is important. But nothing is important more important than your family and your kids. Yeah, that's cool. Um Should we drift to faith or politics? Yeah, let's talk about faith, okay, we haven't touched too much on it have you did you grow up in a faith Background? You go to church when you were a little kid? So, no. Okay. My, my mom was raised Catholic in New York. Okay. So, like nuns. She talks about getting smacked with the ruler by nuns. Oh, like bi Catholic nuns. Yeah, bi Catholic nuns. So, so she innately hated that. No, just kidding. Now, we, we, we used to go to St. I think it's St. John's and Loveland when Grandma would come to town. Okay. You know, I was in, uh, Blake Bush was our youth group pastor at Good Shepherd and Loveland. Um, you know, I went, but it was more friends. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think I have a faith, but I don't think I'm necessarily religious. So you haven't really been involved as an adult in, uh, organization with churchy stuff. Not really. No Christmas, no Easter, no nothing. Well we do. Just when grandma's visiting. Well we do Christmas, we do Easter, we do stuff like that but and honestly through the store we work with a lot of different churches with different stuff. Sure. Different beliefs, different religions. With our kids, you know, like I've told them, I said guys I think the Bible is really something you shouldn't understand. You know it, I think a lot of those stories, whether you're a believer or not a believer, teach you kind of, right. Totally. It is a wisdom book. It's wisdom regardless of whether you believe in the writer or not. Yeah. Well and how to treat people in the stories in there and, and some of them are really dated, but some of'em are as pertinent now as they were 20 Yeah. Some of them come back around. Yeah. And you know, it's funny'cause we, we do travel, we were just. We were in Greece in October and the kids had a weird, like, four day school week, three day weekend, three day school week, four day weekend. So we spent 10 days, we went into Athens and then the cruise we went on followed the apostle Paul through the Aegean. Oh, really? Okay. Which honestly not being that religious, I'm like, I know who Paul is, but I don't know a lot of this stuff. So we went to Thessaloniki and we went to where Lydia was baptized and did her first. for women in Christianity than we were in Istanbul. And Istanbul was five days after Israel broke out. Wow, dude. Which, you know, I'd never, I'd been to Turkey once in college, but yeah, I went to Ephesus in Turkey was the only place I was, which was. We went there two days later. Yeah, and then you're at Ephesus and you're like a holy cow. Holy fuck Yeah, B. No, and then you're like Gaza's like 750 miles from here. Like we're bringing carrier groups in we've got an aircraft carrier. They're shooting drones down and you're like shit This is At least we're you know, some of the cruises were supposed to stop in Egypt and Israel It's pretty wild that you went on a Passive Paul kind of tour without really that faith. What, how did you decide to do this? Well, so part of it was the timing. You know, with, with me, the fourth quarter, I really work. Yeah, right. And then with kids, it's spring break. Olivia plays tennis. Right. Baseball season's kicking up. I hate traveling in the summer because everybody travels and it's a shit show. Yeah. And then I travel about six times a year through ABL and DC or Wine and Spirits, industry stuff. It just fit. That's where the calendar fit. It just worked. And the, I really wanted to do a three day cruise, but we were off a week and I couldn't just pull the kids out. So it was really interesting because going, you know, really all throughout the Aegean. Yeah, yeah. Um, we went to Potmos, which is I think where Paul had his, uh. I remember. Uh, no, it was John, the Apostle John. The Apostle. Or, yeah. And that was the one day, we didn't do the excursion, we literally sat at a cafe, and swam on this rocky beach. Yeah. It was the second to last day, it was what the doctor ordered, and, you know, so I tell people, I'm like, guys, whether Whatever you believe, I'm excited for you, you know, I think, um, Have you taken the question up for yourself? You know, a little bit, uh, there's certain times, this could sound really bad, but, you know, when I'm in Rome, it's great to go see. You know, we've been to the Vatican. We've been, you know, when we're in England. So you kind of resonate Catholic a little bit because of the family history ish? A little bit, and I think, I think having a belief is important. Yeah. Um, I, I especially see it, especially 2, 000 years ago, when there were so many more unanswered questions than what we have now. Well, we'll drift into that soon in the politics segment, when we talk about the lack of objective truth. Well, it's uh, but again, you have, I think it, I think it acts as a compass of what a good life should have, you know, and I think coming back to, you know, the 10 commandments, cool, all those are, whether you're a believer or not, they're pretty spot on. Um, you know, having, uh, we've been listening to the sermon on the Mount, uh, the. Bible, if you ever want to just learn about the Bible, by the way, there's a thing called the Bible Project Podcast, and they do all these long form podcast conversations, and they eventually distill like a whole season down into like a 12 minute video. Really? Uh, but it's fascinating, and this year they're going through the Sermon on the Mount. Okay. Which is basically Jesus first public sermon. Mm hmm. You know, blessed are the peacemakers, blah, blah, blah. Fascinating. Well, and I tell people, I'm like, I told my dad this the other day, cause we had, uh, we had a lady who was renting a house from us who'd been in the house for like four years. And when she left, she left us a Mormon. Bible. Oh, yeah. And she left the key in it and like I said. I visited with Mormon missionaries a couple times. I got two copies of the Mormon, yeah. The Bible and so like I, I got the key back and she was great but I didn't want to leave it there for the new people moving in because yeah, you know, whether they believed or not I just, we'll figure that out. So I gave it to my dad and I was like, you know, love it or hate it It's the number one, the Bible is the number one selling book for 2, 000 years in a row. Like it's an incredible Um, politics. Yes. Um, I have no idea whether you're a D or an R or an I. I'm guessing more of an I, but, uh, how much, uh, how much do you love Biden as our president? You know, I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm now an I. Former. It's hard. I think I am fiscally responsible, and socially a little more kind of leaning. You're a secret L. You're a libertarian that doesn't feel comfortable acknowledging it. Possibly a little bit. And, and, you know, I come back to it of whenever I turn on the news, okay. I turn on Fox and I go, oh my God, like I can go a little ways. And then you're like, okay, it's gone too far. Or I turn on Rachel Maddow. And I'm like, okay, at what point did she lose me? I think most Americans are somewhere in the middle. Unfortunately, the talking heads and the vocal majority, the uniparty, we call that. Yeah. They're, uh, us libertarians anyway. I think that, you know, what do you think about the, the prosecution or persecution? Of Trump by the Bart Biden department of justice. So I don't, I don't know enough about it. I know right now, the fact that we're going to have these two ding dongs running against each other again is disheartening for plenty of evidence of. Extensive corruption would be my, uh, economic minded brain. That's without feelings involved. It's just like, the obvious evidence is this is a shit show. If these two Anyway. This is the best and brightest. Like, really. And that's where I come back to. I tell people, I'm like, okay, when President Obama was our president, he was my president. Whether I agreed or disagreed. Okay? I'm not a huge Trump fan, but he was my president. I'm not a huge Biden fan, but right now, if this is the best and the brightest, we have bigger problems. And how do you point at politics in our political system right now and tell your kids, this is what our forefathers intended. And that's where it's hard, regardless of party, regardless of beliefs. That's what I meant saying the outcomes prove. The outcomes prove what the systems was, was designed for in some ways. And right now it ap It appears the system is designed for some real bad outcomes for people. Well, the system's broken. You know, I don't think this was the system that That's not the way it's designed for. I don't think it's the way it's designed. I don't think And again, I You know, it's hard because I have a public facing business. So I tell people, I'm like, Guys, I don't talk religion, politics, sex, Because there's certain things. So were you a D before you were an I? I Or were you an R? I don't know. I think I really were anything. Well, I think I was more of an R from the fiscal standpoint, although I see ours and then I go, but then you can't balance a budget either. Totally. You know, I mean, parties or, you know, that's why we call it the uniparty. Yeah, well, it's the same party. That's the appearance of two parties. And Nikki Haley is clearly in the unit party. Well, and again, it's, there's like most Democrats favorite person right now. When what's, what's interesting is most of our issues are at the state level. So we spent a lot of time with local and how's that? Well, traditionally, we've done well, because most people, regardless of party, understand the importance of small business and what they do for communities. And in Fort Collins, you traditionally have three D's, right? In Loveland, you normally have two R's. You go to Weld County, you have R's, you go to the mountains, you go to Denver Metro and Boulder, but you have these conversations and you build relationships, whether it was Bob Bacon, who one of my favorite guys, Randy Fisher, John Cofalas, who I saw John the other day, and I'm like, you know, John and I can disagree on some stuff. And I love the guy. Same. And that's the thing. I'm like, John, you are truly. A man of the people. And I think, even when we disagree, his heart's in the right place. Agreed. And, you know, Jenny Arndt. It's, you know, Jenny at The City. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny, she's like, Matt, when all of a sudden I'm a conservative one. Right. I'm like, yeah, she's right. Oh yeah, it's gotta be nutty balls for her right now in Fort Collins. When Loveland, I mean, Loveland McWinney's are gonna sue the shit out of Loveland. Yeah, they are. And they should win. They should. They really should win. They should. And again, you try to look at it and go, what, where can I actually play? You know, is, you know, liquor legislation. I think small business stuff. I think some taxation type things, you know, the city of Fort Collins. We just did a tax increase. Well, great. The voters spoke. I'm fine with that. But I think we have to be careful. What's a tax versus what's a fee because some of the fees are tax. Yeah. And, you know, I that's been pull us a specialty. If he's got one in Colorado is calling new fees fee or new taxes fees, instead fees. And I'll be the first to tell you, I love having a nice smooth roads. I like having if we did anyway. Um, but I actually, as a libertarian kind of leading person. I like fees because then the people that use shit can pay for it instead of just taxing everybody. Um, but we're kind of at our limit of taxation willingness at this point. So that's why the fees are starting to grow. Well, the fees are starting to grow. And I will say, I think something that saved Colorado is having to have a balanced budget. Yeah, for sure. You know, that Tabor and some of those things, which I know people hate, but. Some people hate, but having a balanced budget, even as painful as it is, there's going to be pain. I think we, we could be totally broke like Michigan if it wasn't for that part. Or California. Yeah, yeah. Or, name the state, a balanced budget. Regardless of party, I think is very important because all of us, your business and mine or business or wherever you're at a balanced budget that includes profit would be good. And what is the scope of government? You know, I'll tell people, you know, I'm a big Fort Collins Chamber of Commerce guy. Yeah, this stuff going on at I 25. Was because of business speaking. Yeah. Not the state, cause this wasn't gonna get done for f 10 more years. 40 years. It was like Yeah, 20 more, yeah. 2057, I think? Yep. And it's, now, it's not all the way done, but this started 6, 8 years ago. When months matter, the state is only decades away? Mm hmm. Is that Well, they were looking at it saying, one way to DIA would be 4 hours. Right. Well, how do you run business? Yeah, yeah. I looked at our business. Everything I get Is coming from Denver. What do you mean? All of our major wholesalers. Oh, right. Yeah. We get Odell's and New Belgium. Yeah. So you make that, turn that into a four hour. Delivery that just makes everything more expensive for you too. Four days a week. Right. And you look at I 70. Yeah, every cost. Somebody's gotta find a fix for that. Well, and that's what we don't, like we measure money in politics and government and you know GDP and stuff like that, but we don't measure efficiency. Like, technically, like if it takes four hours to get from DIA to Fort Collins. Well, then you burn more gas. That actually impacts the GDP on a higher basis, right? Or something. And Hertz are, you know, when you look at your footprint. Oh, yeah. Whether you're an EV person or not. Sure. That's a whole different can of worms. But just, it's just inefficient use of resource. Well, and it's inefficient. When you look at it, time is that one commodity you never get back. Yeah. And whether, you know, you're working for yourself, you're working for somebody else, there's only 24 hours in a day. That's true. So I think back to politics at the national level. This year's gonna suck, cause Who the hell knows what's gonna happen. Well, just the amount of money. You know, imagine if that money Well, and whoever wins, a whole bunch of people are gonna be mad. Oh, and However that goes down. Regardless, and then you Yeah, it's just wasted money. I see that I've run you over our five o'clock, uh, timeline. Well, thank you for having me. I'll release don't we're not there yet. Oh, we're not that the loco experience the crazy experience of your lifetime That you're willing to share goodness. That's what I should have been better prepared for no near death experiences any kidnappings, no Like, did you and your dad, like, borrow a bunch of money and start the business as partners to begin with? And, like, how did that go? I don't know. So, dad cashed out his life insurance, basically. Okay. And then we had a partner, and I didn't come on until a year, I think about a year and a half or two. Oh. Because our partner said, you know, you love your kid, but everybody loves their kid. It's your kid worth a shit. So I kind of had to prove it and then they lent me money. Um, you know, we owe everybody because we have rental houses and, you know, I tell people bad debt is bad, but there's certain debt that, you know, if used appropriately. Yeah. Debt that pays for itself, actually. Uh, my blog was titled, uh, Bad debt is bad. Good debt pays for itself. I forget. Yeah. It's, well, and it's, it's hard. We're working on a deal right now that we, everything we've bought is in downtown Loveland. And it's all, Oh, really? Middle to, you know, sometimes we buy some houses that are, Trashed. You guys are slumlords. Well, no, because we bring them up. That's the key. Okay. We bought a fourplex last year from Alternatives to Violence. Oh, wow. Alternatives to Violence, great organization, but they realized, hey, we can't be the case worker, the property owner, and the counselor. And so they, they got out of that business and, you know, somebody, it threeplex with a, like a mother in law unit. Somebody had smoked methane. So we got that, it had been remediated, it was down the studs, but you really brought that up and, you know, I hate to say affordable housing, because at this point there is no such thing, but more affordable housing. Less unaffordable, yeah. Because at the end of the day, when you look at northern Colorado, water, And affordable housing and transportation are going to be the three things that either make or break it for our kids. You know, at this point, you and I, we're halfway through our careers. But if we can't figure out water, if we can't figure out some way for our teams to afford to live here. True. And, you know, we have something to sell. People from all over the world want to come here. We have education, we have industry. We gotta fix the airport, maybe. Like that Fort Collins Loveland Airport has the opportunity to be amazing. Well, if we could fix it, that would be like dumping gas on a billion dollar, billions of dollars. Yeah. Well, cause then all of a sudden you can get people in and out. And we're not even talking about freight. We're just talking about intellectual knowledge, leaders, industry. Cause we, when you look around. Our population is one of the most educated in the country. Yeah, yeah, you'll never find a higher mix of smart ass people than those that choose to live here even though the cost of living is too high and the transportation options aren't that great. Exactly. And you're still, well, right now you're an hour, hour and a half from Denver, but you've got something that the coasts don't have. Yeah. And I still think, you know, regardless of political party. We're still the West and we're still independent. There's different pockets in Colorado that are more independent versus less, but we have something that the rest of the country would kill for. True. Part of that is wide open spaces. That and nice people. Yeah, nice people. I kind of railroaded your local experience. If you got something you'd like to nominate Instead, uh, no near deaths, no nothing, no, uh, being promoted into a weird place. You know, nothing, it's weird. I'm sure I'll think about it three in the morning, because that's when I come up with things. As I wake up, I go, Oh, I should have that! But right now, no, uh, no near deaths. I'm blessed to be here and get to do what I get to do. Yeah. Well, I'm sure, uh, I mean, running a liquor store for 20 plus years now, you've had probably lots of little loco experiences when people try to roll in, in the wrong situation and whatnot. You meet, you know, we meet some characters and at the end of the day, it's fun because you get to meet so many people that are, you know, sometimes just like you and sometimes couldn't be more different. And. You know, we're, we're selling a product that people want. You know, I'm not out there beating on your door. We're not doing this. We're not doing that, that you get to meet people. And I would say our customers like 99. 8 percent are amazing people. That unfortunately two tenths of a percent are the memorable ones, but overall. People are great. Well, there's the fun that you have during the time, and there's the stuff that you really remember. That's the real fun. Well, thank you for having me. It's been a blast. Thank you again.