EXPERIENCE 150 | Family, Business, & Legacy with Justin & Eugene Boling, EOS Implementer & Founder of Boling Remodel

guests on today's podcast were Justin and Eugene Bolling, father and son. Justin and I became acquainted this summer. At a local think tank event this fall, I asked attendees as part of their introduction, who was their hero, and Justin answered, My dad, Gene Bolling, and we started a conversation that resulted in this podcast. Gene was born and raised in rural Nebraska and attended a one room country school from first through eighth grade in a school with only 12 to 14 total students. He became a re a marine. He became a marine. Soon after high school and served in Vietnam for nearly two years. He returned to Nebraska and to his high school girlfriend, made her his fiancee, and later shared his plans to move to Colorado. She said, I'm not going to move. And he said, I'll take my ring back. And after landing in Colorado, he found a different pretty girl and made her his wife. We've got a few construction jobs and soon moved to Fort Collins and started Bowling Remodel and worked in that business for the rest of his career. Justin was born and raised in Fort Collins in the aforementioned entrepreneurial family and wanted nothing to do with business as a young man. He ventured into ministry and shoe sales after high school, went to Europe for a year and later returned to Front Range College and then CSU. He worked in marketing and nonprofit leadership and after a season moved to a young company called Petdyne. First in marketing and then in operations. Petdyne was just starting to run EOS, the Entrepreneur's Operating System, and Justin and the company had a fantastic run of growth. When his journey with Petdyne was concluded, Justin became our region's newest EOS implementer. This is a fun episode full of contrasting journeys, long standing principles, old family stories, and more. This father and son enjoyed a wonderful interaction with one another and with your host, and you'll be glad you tuned in for my conversation with Justin and Eugene Bolling. Welcome back to Loco Experience Podcast. My guesTs today are Justin Bolling and his father, Eugene Bolling, and, uh, I was introduced to Eugene as the hero of Justin when we had an event a while back, and, uh, I understand you're a Vietnam veteran, is that right? Yes. True, sir. And Marines, is that right? Marine Corps, yes. You didn't just buy the hat. No, I didn't just buy the hat. I was actually there. Earned it. Yes. Earned it. So, um, this is going to be a little different conversation than many because we don't have as much business flavor in your journey, Gene. But, uh, for, uh, and Justin, we're going to hear a lot about your journey as well into one of the hottest new things in, uh, business operations systems. Your journey into EOS. Makes you about the fourth EOS person I'll have had on this podcast. Yeah. Yeah. All good people. Is it, Justin, always been a trend follower, Gene? Um, Trendsetter, I suspect. Yeah, that, that's a better word for it, yes. I don't doubt it at all. So, I like to go, um, kind of back to the roots, uh, in general, and especially in a story like this. Tell me about, uh, where were you at, uh, in kindergarten? Oh, in kindergarten. In kindergarten. I grew up in Nebraska, um, northeast Nebraska, way up towards Yankton, South Dakota, Sioux City, Iowa, about 45 miles from each one of those. I've been to the Husker House in Columbus, that's getting on the way there. Yeah, and we're 100 miles north of Omaha, so we're way up in the corner. Oh wow, okay. Uh, small community. So, oh yeah, where I went to, where I went to grade school was a one room, Schoolhouse. Okay. Without houses, we had no running water, had a pump outside, and so I went to, uh, kindergarten through eighth grade there. Oh really? Okay. And then went to high school. And can you circle me a bit? I. I don't want to guess at how old you are, but what is this, like, 1930s, 40s? Uh, I was born in 47. 47, okay. So, yeah, grade school in the 50s, basically. Yes, yes. So, a lot of people had electricity and running water and whatever. Oh, yeah. We didn't have TV yet. Yeah, yeah. When I went, because I remember when we got TV, we lived a quarter of a mile from home, and when we walked home, we could see the antenna on the roof. Of the house. You were like, oh boy. Yeah, we had. You knew TV existed. We got TV. You knew it was a thing. It was black and white, but it was TV. Sure. And were your folks, uh, farmers? They were farmers, yes. Yes. Uh, corn and soybeans. Corn, soybeans, uh, oats. Okay. And just, just, uh, dirt farmers, no animals? Dirt farmers, no. Oh yeah, no, they had pigs and we had, uh, fat cattle and we had a few cow, milk cows too. Oh wow. Yeah, full service operation. Yep, yep. How about siblings? I have one sister that's older than me, and she still lives back there on the farm, on a farm, on her husband's farm that his parents grew up on, and they're retired and still just rent out the farm and live there. Um, so one of the things, uh, that I know was marked in your experience was, uh, the Vietnam War. Yes. Was that like coming right out of high school or what was that circumstance for you? Uh, when I went to high school, uh, when I was a senior, the recruiters came into the school and one of my best friends did join the Marine Corps while he was a senior in high school. I did not at the time. And so I graduated from high school and then I went to trade school down by Milford, Nebraska, which is down by Lincoln. And I, uh, I wanted to be in, um, auto, auto body is what I really wanted. Yeah, yeah. But you had to pick, you had to pick choice, two choices because one of them might not be available. And so the other one was, uh, building construction because I had helped a remodeled guy back home when dad didn't need me. And so I thought, oh, I'll use that as a second choice. Well, the first choice was I couldn't get in. So I had to go to the second choice, which I was glad. And then I decided, um, I didn't want to take a permanent job because the draft was on. I didn't want to get drafted for some reason. And so I didn't take a permanent job. So I went to work in Yellowstone Park as a carpenter at Yellowstone, uh, at the, at the, um, Well, Yellowstone Park Company then, and it was Old Faithful Inn where I worked. Yeah, sorry to interrupt, but tell me about that didn't want to take a permanent job because then you could get drafted. Well, I didn't, I guess I didn't really say that. I didn't want, I knew I was going to get drafted. So I didn't want to take a permanent job and then have to quit the job and go to the service. I see what you're saying. It was more a sense of loyalty and responsibility, if I'm going to get drafted, I don't want to leave you hanging. So I went to work in Yellowstone Park for that summer, but I knew my draft board lady that was in the county, and she said, I can't tell you. When you're going to get drafted, but she said, I can tell you how many they're taking out of the county and then what number you are. And then you figured out, you know, my dad had the same kind of, so I called her, I called her in July. I think it was. And she said, well, they're taking 15 and you're seven. Oh, wow. So I said, well, I'm going to be drafted, and I didn't want to get drafted. So I went to So when was this? Had the war already evolved? Uh, yeah, this was, this was in probably 67, 66, 67. Okay. And when did Vietnam start? Oh, it was in the early 60s, 61, 62 they were going. Gotcha. Okay. And so, I, after that, I went to Livingston, Montana. And I wanted to get in the Seabees because it was a building department of the Navy. Well, they didn't have a two year program. They had a two, four, or a four, six, and a nine. I said, nope, I don't want that. And I said, doesn't somebody have a two year program? And they said, sure. Yeah, the Marine Corps does. He said, go around the corner here. And so I go around the corner to a, nobody's there, me and this master gunnery sergeant sitting there with a big ol cigar, feet up on the table and said, son, what can I do for you? So I told him my story about going, being in trade school and working and he said, well, we don't have a building department, but he said, we do build roads. He said, could you drive a road grader or a caterpillar? I said, yeah, I grew up on a farm. I can drive anything. Had a wheel on it. Wait, sign here. He said, so I did. Last thing, that's the last thing I ever heard of, of the driving a, a Caterpillar. That never happened. He only did that to get me. They're like, infantry. He only did that to get me to sign. That's the way that worked. I want to call in, uh, some contrast here and, uh, bring you to the conversation, Justin. Uh, where did you go to kindergarten at? I went to Timnath Elementary. Timnath Elementary. Yeah, so we grew up just outside, uh, just off County Road 5. And highway 14. Sure. So yeah, I hit them all here locally at Timnath and then, uh, Preston opened that and then Fort Collins opened that. So you're a super townie. I am. Basically. Yeah. So thanks to them, man. I mean, it's, it's a beautiful place though. It's hard to, for sure. Yeah. Why would you want to go too far away? Yeah. Right. Uh, How would you do for your education? Did you go away or you CSU guy? I ran, I ran away from college. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Mom wasn't too happy about that one. I, uh, I was accepted to the university of Oregon out of high school and I did not want to go at all. So I have a good buddy of mine, Matt, who, uh, came to me and he goes, Hey, I'm moving to Wichita, Kansas to be with his girlfriend, now his wife. And, uh, I was like, yeah, sounds great. So I took off. It's probably a couple week decision and took off and ran away from school and lived in, lived in Wichita, Kansas for a couple years. And just worked? Yeah, I worked at a shoe store and, uh, was a youth pastor. Okay. And, uh, yeah, that lasted, I don't know, like three, three and a half years, something like that. Okay. Went to England for a year and, uh, kind of started school, but more so just played music and traveled around because you saved enough money working at the shoe store. Yeah, I guess, you know, and, and, uh, had a blast, man. Saw a bunch of soccer games or football games, whatever you want to call them. And, uh, then finally came back and knew I probably didn't want to go back to Wichita and then had a, uh. A certain person that, you know, I didn't really want to go back for, and so I came back home and, uh, lived in the basement and started going to school. Went to Front Range and then CSU. Nice. Nice. So, yeah. Yeah, a little different than the, uh, one room school that you started at. How many students were in that one room school most of the time? Uh, about, probably 12, 14. I had three in my class. All from, like, first grade to eighth grade. I had the same kids with me, and then went to high school with one of them, too. Oh, wow. Well, and then your graduating class in high school was, what, 27? Yeah. And mine was over 600. Mine was five. Yeah. Uh, I'm from North Dakota. Okay. Very rural North Dakota, and we were one of the last schools to consolidate in and stuff like that. Yeah. But we would go, uh, Uh, for vocational technical training, our junior senior years, we'd go to Jamestown. Okay. And the two most popular choices were auto body and auto mechanics. Yeah, there you go. I took the auto mechanics instead of pre calc. Yeah. Uh, which pre calc would have prepared me better for the engineering, uh, degree that I eventually went to college for and flunked out of. Anyway, that's weaving too much of my story in here. So, um, I was, uh, this is an interesting, uh, By thought, and I have no idea what you say to it, but, uh, I consider myself something of a philosopher and a writer sometimes, and, uh, When I first got free of banking, and I started a bare capital advisors business, Uh, my very first blog, or, no, second or third blog was Veterans Day celebration, uh, of sorts, and it was, uh, War, America's grossest national product. Uh, you know, it counts in the gross national product number, but it's pretty gross, the effect that, unfortunately, our, you know, it's like, it's basically the U. S., and like, Iran, North Korea, Russia, that make a lot of money selling armaments when everybody else fights, still today. So, any thoughts on that? Obviously, you were not excited about the draft. Was that because of fear or opposition to the cause in general? Or, tell me about that. No. No, my opposition was, I I just didn't want to go to the army. Right. I didn't want to be. That was where it was a real grinder. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think the, my friend that I went to high school with that went into the Marine Corps, I think that had something to do with it. Yeah. He thought it was a good decision. I followed him and we ended up having the same MOS. When I went to Vietnam, he was there. He was getting out. Okay. And so he showed me what to do, what not to do. And he, cause we had the same jobs, which lucked out, I mean, I lucked out. Yeah, tell me about that. Like, I've always thought of the Marines as where the, the real baddest asses of the bad asses go. Well, no, I was, I was, I was really pretty lucky when we, when we got our, when they lined us up, about 80 of us in boot camp to give your, what they called your MOS, your military job. And they, so they lined you all up and then they came down the line and they'd give you a number. Well, we had learned. all the bad numbers. Like you didn't want to be a radio man, you didn't want to be a truck driver. Because the radio man is always up front with a good shot. You didn't want to be that one. You didn't want to be infantry. You didn't want to be a machine gunner or none of that stuff. And so when they came around to the person next to me, my friend, his was 3051. And we said, we have no idea what it is, but it can't be bad. Right. We've heard about it. If it wasn't one of the bad ones. Mine was 30. 50, and then what they made you do, you had to go in and look at this big board because they wouldn't tell you what does your flight come in? What does your destiny hold for you? Yeah, you had to go in and look at the big board, find your number, and see what it was. And his was office supply, and mine was supply. And he was And he was pissed. He wanted, he wanted, he said, I joined the Marine Corps to get a gun and go fight. Yeah. I can't live with this. He's like, well, I'm sure somebody will trade. Yeah. He said, I have to get this changed. Really? And so we went to the, our commanding officer and he said, I, you can't get it changed. He said, you can go to the general and maybe he can help you. Wow. So, I went with him. The general's gotta be busy. Yeah. You gotta go to the general for a question like that. And we went to the general. There's nobody there, but. We, we walked in, talked to the general, and I said, I'll go with you. I don't wanna change mine. I'm good at mine. Right? If you wanna change, I'll tag along and see how this process goes. Yeah, I'll help, I'll watch you, but I, I don't want mine changed. So we go in and the guy says the same thing. General says, can't change your MLS, but he says, I can give you the name of a general when you get to Vietnam. Go see him. And he gave him the name and his rank and everything. And he said, when you get over there, go see him. He might be able to help you. You're going to have to work in office supply for a little while, but. No, he didn't. Never did. No. So when we got over there then, I mean, to make a long story short, we got over there, go to the, go do the same thing. I go with him to the general. The general says, can't change your MOS. But he said, what I can, he said, we have a real lot of, we have an opening that's a, it's really a dangerous thing, but it's air delivery. And he said, the Marine Corps does a lot of air, uh, they deliver helicopters, they deliver to people that are, are pinned down, they run out of food, run out of ammo. And he said, it's not something that people. Usually want to do, but he said, I do have an opening for that. And the kid says, that's exactly, I want the best one. Yeah, I want that got shot down. The first time they went out, didn't kill, didn't get killed. Got shot down two or three times. I'd see him every few weeks and he'd fill me in on the story. Oh man, he loved it. He thought it was the greatest thing ever. They'd limp back with the thing. burning in the back and land, and he said the last time was the best. He said we were landing in real tall grass and those big Hueys, when the blades start shutting down, the Kong knew it took a few minutes to get them going and that's when they'd open up on you. Right. We had a guy, a gunner with a 50 that was at the door trying to protect, uh, uh, when we unloaded stuff. Right. He had a harness on where he forgot to hook it up. Oh. And he got shot, fell out, and he said, I got to grab the 50. And he said it was the best day ever. And they went back and saved the guy. Yeah. Awesome. So he didn't, he didn't lose him. Uh, how many, like you were front lines, were you front lines? No. You just stayed in the supply category. We had to go out on patrol once a month, and then we had to go guard the ammo dump duty once a month. Gotcha. But that was kind of almost reservist in those spaces covering for breaks and different things. We were inside, yes. We were inside of. Uh, Secure Fence, actually. Yeah, yeah. This is in, uh, Vietnam? Yeah, it was in Da Nang, at Da Nang is where I was stationed. Okay. Was that kind of the, uh, the headquarters region? It was, it was the headquarters for all the supplies that came in from the ocean. And then we had the, uh, Koreans ran all the trucks and brought all the, all the stuff to us. And then we delivered it to the warehouses that it went to. That was pretty much my job. So, Justin, when we left off, you had met a pretty girl here, in northern Colorado, or where was this? Because she misdirected your steps, or whatever. No, she, uh Or correctly directed your steps. Corrected them, yeah, I mean, it just wasn't meant to be, right? Oh, one of those misdirections. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't meant to be, so it came here. Now I get it, yeah, ah, yeah, yeah, now I'm following. I'm going to put your land down, yeah. Um, so, um How did you, uh, like, what, what, the two years that you signed up for in the Marines, did that get extended from there? Uh, no, I was in a year, seven months, and 26 days. Oh, wow. When I went in, we all got lined up, went to, we went to, uh, boot camp, then we came, went home for third, er, About 30 days. Then we went back to what they called staging. And that was more training for Vietnam, uh, in the Congo. And, you know, they, they give you all kinds of Bush training and all that. And we had to go through all that. Then they lined y'all up again and said there was like 100 of us or more. And they said, okay, all the A and the B's go at the left. Everybody else All the people that went to the left, you're leaving tomorrow morning for Vietnam. All the people, the A's and the B's, all stay, you get three weeks of mess duty. Okay, before you get to go. And so they're all laughing at it. And so that happened, spent three weeks in mass duty. We got over there and met with the, the, our friends that had been over there three weeks before us then. Right, right. And one of the friends was in, uh, was an office person in finance. He said, come and see me. You're going to like what I know. So I went and seen him and he said, because you hit mess duty, you hit the early out program. They didn't. So when you get done here and get rotate and you go home, you can get out. Oh, so that's why I was only in a year and seven months and 26. Some of the other folks were auto renewed almost. They had to come back and then full go home and then fulfill their two years, four years, whatever it was. Yeah. Yeah. And then they did. Yeah. Yeah. When we went to get out, they did offer you 50, 000 cash and one rank. And so I told him, I said, I'd take 350, 000 and two ranks, but that didn't go, it didn't like that. So I said, well, see you then, I'm out of here. Fair enough. There's some business nuggets right there for you. Right, yeah, for sure. Negotiation, but the government doesn't negotiate very much. No, they don't negotiate. Well, they didn't used to, so they've been changing that up lately. Um, let's talk about, what does a guy do? Then when I get out, yeah, what was the, what was your options? Um, there wasn't a lot of options in Nebraska as far as when I went back home for jobs. They're just, unless you wanted to farm and I didn't want to farm. And this is when this is like late sixties. This would. I was in Vietnam in 68, 69, so I got out. 70. It was about 70. So that was really when, I guess, public, uh, receipt of Vietnam was starting to really sour. Yeah, it was. Yeah, we didn't get treated well when we came. Yeah. Can you talk about that? Like, what was that in your case? In Omaha, when we flew into Omaha, was the only time we, uh, we really had any, uh, Protesters or, um, people that weren't nice to us. Yeah. Um, you know, they'd yell at you and spit on you and that's just the way it was there. But, when we went to our small towns Yeah, they were just happy to see you. Yeah. There was no problem there. Yeah, makes sense. We were received there. Um, so do you start wondering where you're going next because there wasn't much work? There wasn't much work and, and, um, I had a car. I had a 62 Chevy and I told dad to sell it if, to sell it if, you know, um, if he could get 1, 200 out of it. Well, he sells it like two days before I come home. So I have no car. But he got 1, 200 out of it. He got 1, 200 out of it. So I said, well I gotta have a car. So I went and bought a Did you get the 1, 200 bucks? Yes, I got, no, no, Dad gave me the 1, 200 and I took that and bought a 70, uh, Roadrunner at the time. Oh, well that's fun. Uh, big block or small block? It was a 383. Automatic. This is a sore subject though for my sister and I. Yeah. Cause that car had to go when you guys started coming. That's, uh, my dad had a, uh, a Chevelle SS. Yeah. I was like, come on. I have that now. Oh, is that right? Nice. I couldn't, I couldn't afford my road runner back. I did, when I got married, my wife She was a school teacher and she drove it to school. She hated that thing. Had no power steering, no power brakes, and vinyl seats. But it sounded so good. And the kids loved it. It sounded great, but she hated it. So I ended up trading it for a 67 Caprice Chevy. Even up. Another business nugget. Yeah. And actually, the guy gave me a dollar and said, I don't trade even up. Fair. Fair. Fair. So, um, would you Uh, you found a woman along this way somewhere. Did you find her before you went off to the Marines or after? Well, to back up a little bit, I was engaged when I Uh, was, went to the Marine Corps. Okay. But when I came back home, I decided I was moving to Colorado because when I went to trade school, my, one of my best friends moved to Colorado to work for a builder here in Fort Collins. Hmm. And so I decided, and he kind of coaxed me into coming here because he said there's plenty of jobs here, plenty of work here. Lots of stuff happening. Lots of stuff happening. So I said, okay, I'm leaving. So I told my Sharon, my girlfriend. that I was engaged to. I'm moving to Colorado. She said, Nope, I won't. I will not leave home. Oh, I said, Well, then, um, I'll have my ring back because I'm going. And so that was the end of that relationship. I left and I'd went with her all through high school. Oh. So that was the end of that one. That was interesting, uh, it was just that easy of a decision for you to accept that. Yeah, I'm leaving. If you don't, and you, and she said, absolutely, I will not leave home. And I said, well, then we part. We have a difference in our appreciation of adventure. Yeah, uh, it was a good time, but I'll see you, I'm gone. Okay. So you land in Fort Collins with a job. Land in Fort Collins. Or nearly a job, at least a good reference. Yes, I had a good period. When was this? This was in, uh, You got out in 70. This was probably in 70. In the same year. Yep, it was in the same year. So I moved to Fort Collins and looked for a place to live, found a place, an apartment, a basement apartment on the west side of town for 75 bucks a month. And it actually included meals. What? Unbelievable. Were they good meals? Yes! It was just a family that I just happened to on in the paper and they had a room in the basement. But they said, oh yeah, you can come up and eat with us anytime. And so she fed me the whole time I was there. You would never get that today. You probably ate 75 worth of food. I think, now thinking back, she had a motive in that, because she went to, uh, Westminster Presbyterian Church and sang in the choir. Well, she said, there's a girl that sings in the choir that you need to meet. I said, no. I'm not ready for that. Yeah, I just broke Sharon's heart. Relentless. I mean, I had to evict, I tried to not see her because she was on me every time I'd see her. You got to go, you got to go, you got to go. Well, I said, oh fine, we'll go. Yeah. Lovin much? Seven months later we got married. Oh wow. Isn't that neat how somebody that you might not have expected changes your life like that? Like why did, what was it, you know, God was stirring in her heart to stay in your ear. Yep. Cause, you know, God's, uh, works mysteriously in that way. It had to be. Yeah, interesting. Did you have a, a faith background before? Yes. Oh yeah. Or you grew up in the I grew up in the Methodist church. We went to church every, every, every You didn't hate the Presbyterians too bad? No, no. No, my folks They were cousins anyway, right? No, they were about the same. Not much difference, no. They were pretty much the same. So yeah, I went to church every Every day, every Sunday in Nebraska before moving out. So, uh, so what's this young lady's name that was in the choir at Westminster? It was Peggy Pickering. Peggy Pickering. And she was from Kansas. Okay. And she grew up in Kansas and then had a, had a real issue there with her dad was an alcoholic. And so she moved to Fort Collins. Fresh start for her kind of too. And then went to, uh, she went to UNC, which it was called then. Oh yeah. Yeah. And. And, uh, got a, got a teaching certificate and then started teaching at, uh, Moore Elementary on the west side of town. Isn't it remarkable how, like this was 1970, right? And in that 30, 50, 40, 53 years now, like in those days, uh, going to college for a teacher certificate was, if a, if a woman went to college, it was usually for that. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And now they're like 60 percent of the university attendance is females. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yep. It's awesome. Just in a generation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Remarkable. It is way different. So, uh, yeah, so tell me about, like, those early years of, of marriage, uh, and how long before some littles came along and that. We were, I think we were married seven or eight years before we had any kids. Okay. Because my, uh, parents didn't think we'd ever have any. Yeah, right. What are you waiting for? We had a dog. Yeah. Your trendsetter's there, too, for Collins. The town of the family with the dog. Yeah. Yeah. We had a little poodle and we had him 21 years before he disappeared. We had him way longer. We had kids. Oh, it's nice when they disappear too. Yeah. The kids. No, not the kids. The dog disappeared. If you don't have to bury him, it's nice to just go wander out in the woods. Like that's what happened. He just disappeared. So, um, you're working in the home building industry. When we got married. I quit my job, because my wife is a teacher, and I thought, okay, this is the time to quit. She had an income, she had a paycheck, she could make the mortgage, which was, oh, it was really terrible. The first house we bought was 17, 500. 17, 500. 17, 500. Can't even buy a car for that now. Right. Can't put a down payment on that. It was 128 a month, and we thought, how are we ever going to make that? Right. And then we, we sold that house for, uh, 28, 000 I think it was, moved up the hill to another house and we paid 31, 000 and, uh, sold it for about 90, 000 and then bought some land out east of town and that's where Justin grew up was the land out on Boulder Circle then. And you said that's close to Congo River 5 and Fort T. Yes, right. My father in law lives right there actually. There's a, there's four little ten acre patches. Yes. Yeah, ours is, ours is, ours is the one up on the hill, it's a circle. Okay. Boulder Circle, and there's like 14 houses in there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's on the east side of that ditch. Yeah. Yeah. East side of the ditch. That's right. Yeah. And then, uh And then there's houses below it. Yeah, and Dales is right next door to the, uh, bath property there on the south side. Oh, yeah. I know. Yeah. Exactly. Yep. Yep. I know exactly where it is. Well, that's fun. We're neighbors. That's right. So, um, so what did you do? Were you looking to start? So then, so then, yeah, I, um, started bowling remodeling then, and kind of sat by the phone and put an ad in the paper and just waited for somebody to Because you had your tech degree in that space and whatever, had some experience. I wanted my own business. I didn't want to work for somebody else at that point. I thought this is the time to do it. Yeah. And so there wasn't much for a few months and then it got more busy, more busy, and I ended up, ended up hiring five, six guys. Had seven guys at one time. Yeah, yeah. We built custom houses, we did big remodels, and Tell me about that desire to have your own business, like, you were very, matter of fact about it, like, I didn't want to work for the man, I wanted to have my own thing. Was that just growing up where you grew up, in Nebraska, and farmers kind of own their own destiny like that? That probably had something to do with it. I mean, it was just like, um, you could control your own business and it was just something more fun. You had more control over it, I guess. It was much more fun. Yeah, fair enough. I think that's a business truth right there. I had some crazy employees, really. Well, everybody does. And crazy bosses a lot of employees have, too. I wanted to actually draw one more business truth out, was Talking about those houses, like you bought one for 17, sold it for 28, bought one for 31, sold it for 90. And I think for especially younger listeners, like getting equity started, uh, to own something. If you never own something, you can never own a lot of things. That's right. Uh, so start and own something. And you really can't, at that point, you couldn't lose on real estate. Right. I mean, as long as you kept it up. You'd always get your money back, plus some. Yeah, well, in the long run, I think that holds true even today. So, how do you go from, like, so you're just a handyman service, virtual, remodeling service initially, so that's probably just, you know, basement finish outs and things like that to get going, okay? And then jobs just kept getting bigger, I mean. You started getting people that wanted 200, 000 remodels. They wanted their, they wanted their ranch house turned into a two story. Right. So you had to have more help. So you hired more employees. And I got up to seven at one time. Yeah, yeah. And then did you contract out for a lot of the trades? Yes. Electrics and stuff like that? The plumbing was all subbed out. Electrical subbed out. Um, drywall was subbed out. I usually did the painting and the finish work. So kind of a traditional general contracting firm. Yes, exactly. How do you learn how to do stuff like put a new top on a house or whatever the first time? Uh, you mainly just do it. You just, I had a, I had a real good mentor named Jess Nelson. Okay. That built a lot of houses here in town. Okay. And he's the one that built. He framed our house in on Boulder Circle one week because I was I had my remodel, but I didn't have time to build a house Oh interesting my own and so I said well, I'll take it to after sheetrock And so he took it did all the framing did the roof did got it all sheetrocked and then I took it from there Well when I got my remodel going when I would run into an issue Didn't know what to do. That's who I called. That's cool. And I'd go meet him and he would say, Okay, here's what you gotta do. I think that's uh So he'd help me through all those things. I'd take a job I had never done it before. Well, and you were technically competing with him. That's right. For every piece of business you had and he had. Yeah. In some ways. Yes. I think that's so cool. He was such a great guy to help you. He was just a great mentor. Yeah, what a blessing. Yes. Um, where did you, where was the business at when you come along? Or were you the oldest, Justin? I forget. Uh, not. I'm the youngest. Oh, you're the youngest. Okay. By three years. So tell me about That, uh, sequence of events, like you're operating this remodel, growing into a custom home building company, market demands apparently pretty strong. How many homes was your most in a year? Oh, well, we, I actually only, we only built like three new houses. Oh, right. So it stayed mostly remodeled. It was mainly, yeah, remodeled was more. Increasingly complex remodels. When interest rates go up. Remodeling was way better because people didn't buy new houses. They'd said, Oh, we'll stay here. We'll put a new, we'll raise the roof, put a second story on. We'll do redo to our basement, redo to our kitchen. And so when interest rates went way high, remodeling was way better. Right. And so remodel probably didn't have the business cycles. of, you know, because it's really feast or famine when you're building, whereas you can still find enough work when interest rates are low, whereas the home building people are starving when interest rates are high. Yes, and we were always busy then. Yeah, interesting. I never really thought through that. Um, so how did you find your customers? Mainly word of mouth. Yeah. That was, and I did run an ad. Yeah, one ad in the Yellow Pages early on. And we'd always put a sign up. I mean, I still had the sign, bowling remodeling that we'd put in the yard and put out front, and I'd get calls from that. And then pretty soon you had too many jobs. Right. You couldn't do them all. And that's the worst contractors. You either go broke by not having enough or too much. Right. Yeah, it's saying yes to more than you can fight off. Uh, then you get a bunch of unhappy customers. I almost got into that position. Then you just gotta hustle to find more help, but then that more help doesn't know what they're doing enough. That's right. Exactly. And then they, you keep them four or five, six years. Well, they want more money and you can't afford them. And so they go out on their own, which you can't blame them. Right. But then you have to start all over. Yeah. Training somebody else. You don't want them to get too smart. That's right. Smart enough to be good employees. But not too smart where they want to think they can do it better than you. Exactly. Take this IQ test. I want to make sure you're in this tech range. That's right. So, um. And when did the kids start coming along? You said seven, eight years, so that's late 70s by that time, which is born in 79 So right into the teeth of the next recession is when you start having those littles. Yes, but you were interest rates were high So you were busy and I was good and my wife was teaching school. So she had money coming in So we were great there and very cool. Didn't have a problem. Yeah. Yeah we're the Justin how old are you? I'm 41. You're 41, so that puts you quite a bit younger. 82. Oh, okay, so only a few years. Oh, him, no. No, you were born in 82. Yeah, you were born in 82. So that was only a few span years. And what's the, how many siblings? Just Kate. Oh, just the one older? Okay, gotcha. Um, tell me what you remember about, like, when you were just a youngster, a five year old or a seven year old, learning about what Dad did. I just remember going to, like, the job sites and, like, seeing the signs and, and Like he, he would make a bunch of hats all the time, and so we still have hats, say bowling remodeling and repairing. Like hard hats? No, like, uh, like, uh, Like the Marines had? We'd, we'd order hats. Yeah, yeah. Oh, right on. I still got a bunch of them. Yeah, so I remember those, I remember, like, Um, in part for me too, is like, I remember him being super happy. Like whenever we'd go on the job sites, there was like this proud, like, yeah, like, Hey, I did like, this is it. Like showing us like super proud to introduce us to his team and all these people. And that's all I remember. Like. Any of the other stuff, right? I just remember him being, you know, and being happy, right? Like, like, not like overly happy, but just like happy. Like, you know, this is mine. Yeah. Like has my name on it and I'm proud of this and this is good. You know, one of the, uh, An economist that I follow has a, you know, the, I don't know if it's a phrase or a saying, but he's, the cornerstone of all of economics is two words, add value. Yeah. You know, and when you add value, it's fulfilling. Exactly. And I think, you know, it's interesting to me that, um, Probably too much of the culture has swung to extract value, right? Like, if I do these things, uh, in this marketing thing, or these, whatever, then I can get mine. Yep. Um, but it's really a self directed Yep, yep. Value add and not nearly so it's more me me, right, right Like that's where you got your sense of pride from gene was all these amazing basements and kitchens and just a changed life Experience for the people that had your your service. Yeah, and it really came from my dad. Is that right? Yeah, tell me more about that well, he was a Perfectionist, okay There was never a weed anywhere in the cornfield or anywhere in the bean field because he walked all that by hand. Or made us walk it with him. Yes. And I hated walking corn because it'd get in your face and it'd slice you. But he was, he'd go out there in 100 degrees with a hat and a dog and a jug of water. And so, and everything he did was, If you use the shovel, it better be clean when you put it back. Oh. Because if there's dirt on it, it'll rust and you'd, and you'd, and it's not, That's not the right way to do things. and then they don't last very long. Yeah, yeah. He bought John Deere tractors. He'd waxed the hoods of them when he got done. Yeah. And clean, there was never a drop of oil dripping. So, that's really where I got mine. Everybody wanted to buy his old tractors. Absolutely. They were worth twice as much when he sold them. I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it. So, everything he bought, he said, You gotta pay cash for it. You can't make any money by doing borrowed money. Yeah, yeah. So, he had a real problem when we bought our first house and paid interest. Right. But then when he seen, we sold it and made money. Yeah, yeah. Because his farm, he rented 50 50 for 40 years. Right. If he'd have just gotten a bank loan and bought the other half or whatever. But he paid cash for everything. Right. So then when he was in his 60s, he decided maybe I should buy a farm. Right. Well, he couldn't get a loan. He didn't have no credit. He had no credit and he was so mad because he said, I pay everything with cash. Why can't I get a loan? And they said, you've never bought anything on credit. So he actually found somebody that was actually a relative kind of, that was getting rid of their farm and said, we'll finance you for 9 percent for 10 years. He had it paid off in three. Nice. Yeah, sounds like a good operator. Because he had everything paid for. Right. Yeah. Everything he sold went right to pay off the farm. Yeah, yeah. So he sold it. Yeah. Well, it's an interesting thing. Uh, I wrote a blog called On Leverage years ago. And, you know, financial leverage or operational leverage. Like you did far more remodel than you could have possibly achieved if you were a one man band. Yes. You know, and because of the reputation that you built and the quality. Expectations that you were able to transmit to your team. You could sell that work and give them consistent work and things like that. And allow probably other remodel companies to spread and God bless them. Exactly. Cool. Yeah, that's a great, uh, tone. So what an opportunity to write for you. You're a 1 percent or. because you've got, uh, an entrepreneurial family, uh, that, you know, you even appreciated even way back in those days. It sounds like, yeah, I didn't know what I didn't know though, either. Right. Like, I don't think I understood, like, even we were joking when we came in, like, like I remember him saying, yeah, I'd love for you to take this over. And I remember being like, No, no, that's a horrible idea. Yeah. And like now I'm like, oh, like if I would have known the whole business side of things. Yeah. Right. I just knew I didn't want to pound a nail into a, into a two by four the rest of my life. That's about all I knew. That's true. Right. And I was like, but you know, and when he got into high school and then got into sports, he didn't have time to go help me. Now his sister would go along with me. And she learned really well how to do drywall. I mean, she could fill nail holes and she was way more apt to go with me than Justin was in high school age because he was more interested in soccer. And that's just the way it was. Anything other than construction. Anything other than going with me. Right. It smells a lot like work. Yeah. Yes. Dirty work. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was, you know, I was 12 when I started driving trucks and tractors and combines and stuff for the farm and, you know, and, uh, oh, we, my first kind of job that was different from that was my dad did custom spraying. Mm hmm. And so my brother and I would be flaggers for a nickel an acre. Okay. And my dad had an old spray coop. He'd drive back and forth and we would be the targets and, you know, inhaled a lot of chemicals. Yeah. So sometimes some of the questions I ask on this podcast, but mostly recovering. Yep. Yep. So, um, so did you Um, ultimately sell bowling remodel or are you still active or just shut it down at some point or how did that go down? It got to be, um, the insurance and the, it just got so out of hand. It's the cost of being in business. Isn't that funny? Like, it would make it. Keep the business busy enough to cover all that overhead and you're like, well I just want to do like two or three nice projects a year with my team of two Yeah to have the insurance and have all your employees covered and it just got to be so that was just More than what you could do and then then employees start either Getting another job or leaving or whatever and it finally got turnover It finally got down to one, and then, finally, I just said, uh, I'm done with it. Yeah. And when was this? Uh, it was probably in the 90s. Okay. So it's been long run, over 20, It was, it was about 30 years. 30 years. Before the remodeling we had. Wow. And then I decided, I'm just gonna go work for somebody else. Oh, I see. Yeah. Just easier. Less brain damage. I'll find something, you know. Right. Well, and especially if it's a real small firm, it's like, you know, you can almost make more money managing a Subway store than you can owning one Subway store. Right. Yeah. Unless you want to be the manager too, but. Yeah. Right. Yep. So, yeah, that's fair enough. Justin, uh, when we left your journey, you decided on some CSU action. Yeah. And it had no, I was telling a buddy at lunch this morning, well, back up real quick, there's another nugget. The referral business that he was talking about. Oh yeah. Right, like I was talking to a buddy at lunch, he's in the finance world, and we were just talking about it, like that right there, like, that's not ever changed in business. Right. Right, like that's been a staple since before you, right? That's, that's the right way to do it. Talking about Grandpa Hazen, right? Like, you did it, you did a good job, and they would refer somebody else to you. Yep. Right, it's slower, but Well, and that's how my, my dad grew his farm, uh, cause he bought a little bit of land. He rented some land from he was a startup farmer. So my dad started his farm evenings and weekends and 20 years later would finally able to go full time But he's he's bought some land, but mostly through rented land was his growth Right, and it was always because he did a damn good job Yeah, other people that were property owners were like, hey, I like the way Dom keeps his fields I'll rent to him when yeah, if I lose my renter or if I get sick and tired of him paying the rent late Yeah I'll call Donny Bear, I bet he pays his rent on time, because look how clean his fields are, or whatever. Yeah, no, that's an interesting thing, and that was most of the times that his farm saw a growth stage, it was not because he was out there hunting for it, it was because somebody wanted to find him. True. Yeah, same thing with a remodel too, you're like, I don't know if I got time. Well, my neighbor George really said you did a good job there. So you try and work them in. Sometimes you work too many in and you freak out a little bit. Exactly. And Kate and I would get so mad because we had an answer machine. And we'd all run home and be so excited. It'd say like, six. You had six messages. And like, five of them were for him, bullying our model. And like, we're just like, like, what? Like, nobody called us. Like, everybody called him. So. How many, uh, how many properties do you think you touched in that span? As, as the owner of that business. Oh, that's a lot. 20, 30 a year or something? More than that? 10, 15 a year? No, it had to be 20 or 30 a year. And some of them were small. Right, just a kitchen here or there, a basement, whatever. Yeah, it had to be 20 or 30. So hundreds and hundreds over the span of time. And some of them we went back and done again. Yeah, 20 years later. I like it, yeah. Freshen it up again, yeah. Or do this part of the house. Probably some houses get remodeled in three or four stages. Or we go back and add on an addition to one that we did the kitchen or something. Sure, yeah, makes sense. Um, yeah, thanks for pulling that out. Yeah, it was. It's interesting how I wonder, do you think your Your eventual love of business was like rekindled in that seasons between Justin, or where did your love for the art of business come from? Uh, I don't, I don't think I ever saw dad as an entrepreneur like that. I mean, I was so young and then like the, like when the business went away, right? I don't think I was probably middle junior high. Right. Something like that. Right. So it was like, and I already knew at that point, I didn't want anything to do with it. So it was kind of like with that business. Yeah. Right. And so then it was just, I just was on the radar, but I, again, I remember vividly as a kid, like. Yeah. Yeah. Him just being happy, right? Like, in those, like, smiling and, and those, those moments. And so, yeah, I think that always stuck with me and then we've just gotten really close. Like, I would consider him one of my best friends too. And so, it's like, we have all those conversations now and it's like, gah, like, when, when, when your dad yells at you. What I could have learned if I had a ear to hear. Yeah. Like, when your dad yells at you, you'll understand when you're older. Like, no, shut up. No, I won't. Totally. And now I'm like, I'm like, dad, please just talk. Yeah. And I'll listen. Yeah, I would think, uh, Uh, probably about one third of the expressions I share with people. And they're all like, Oh, that's a really smart thing. I'm like, well, that's just, I got that from my dad, but you would only start remembering those things about when you turn 35 or 40. What is that? Uh, the older I get, the smarter my dad was. Listen up. Yeah. So, yeah. So I think the love of business just came from. Like, my wife and I have always had side hustles. We've always been interested in that kind of stuff. Um, I never, I was a pastor first. Yeah. Tell me, let's go back to your journey in a similar fashion after the shoe selling pastor, young man out in Kansas, learning his first, uh, way. Flinging Jordans down in Wichita, Kansas. And, uh, Yeah, and then was a pastor out there, was a, uh, uh, pastor here. Oh, you don't know Colin Jones, by the way, do you? Uh, we met the other day at one of the events. Well, he's from Wichita. He had a computer business about that time. He's about your age. Oh, I should, we should connect then. We hit it off that day. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, I digress. Yeah. And so like, I think. You know, I just came back and, and did school, did all that kind of stuff. And it was a pastor during that, that time, you know, but it's college, right? Yeah. Didn't know what the heck I wanted to do. Had no, had you gone to seminary or something? How did you become a pastor? Or where did that start? And that was part of the, that was one of the things, right? Like I didn't, I knew enough had being a youth pastor and then a young pastor to know that I was like, okay, I don't know if I want to spend my whole life doing this, because it was like kind of that point of like. They'd let the youth pastor at that time kind of do it without. a degree. Yeah, yeah. Right, like cuz you just need somebody to handle the kids. You could, yeah, the answer is Jesus. Yeah, we'll throw some, some of this at you. It's like, whatever. Okay, great. You know, so I did that for a long time and loved it but then I was like, uh, I started to see how the, how, not all churches but how people. Yeah. Churches work, right? And it bothered me. Like it, it didn't run like a business. Yeah. And that bothered me. And so then worked at a publishing company, worked at group publishing here. Okay. And that's where then I started to like, um, I worked with a guy named Andy Brazelton, hired me on, it was my first real job. Sure. And like, we had an e com business and publishing and digital publishing and, and a magazine, all these different, all these things. And I'm just going like, This is awesome. Like we get to do all this and there's this super entrepreneurial team and I'm like, yeah, this, whatever this is like, I like this. Right. Um, what was your degree by the way? Communications with a minor in religious studies. from CSU. Yeah. Sounds like, uh, were you an athlete as well? Nope. No, no, I was an athlete. I took five years off. I took five years off. So I was like, I probably had eligibility. I better get out there and work for us right away. Yeah. But I was, I was married in that window. Um, so I went to front range and then I, by the time I was done at front range, walking into CSU, I was married. Okay. So I was a very non traditional, I remember going to my orientation at CSU. And it's like, all the freshman kids, and I'm sitting there, and I'm like, You're a SOTA, a student older than average, they call them in my school. Right, and so it's like, my lanyard was a different color. And then everybody else is, I didn't pay attention to it. And like, we're walking out of this big seminar thing and like, Oh yeah, you go over here. And I walk into this room and there's like 20 people sitting in there, all gray hair and they hand me a water bottle, anybody over 25 and they hand me a water bottle that says adult learner. And I'm like, I'm like, what? It took five years. It's like, it's been five years. It's like since high school. What do you mean? I'm an adult learner. I'm definitely not an adult. Right. Right. Right. So yeah, I did that. And, um, and it was good, I think just through all that. And then I think as we've talked more, even about bullying remodeling and other stuff too, I think, and then having kids and life and other business experiences like that frustrated me. I was like, I came to like the same conclusion. I remember talking to him one day and I was like, I don't, I don't know if I want to do this. Like. Like, I remember beginning of this year, 23, sitting down with my wife and being like, we have five kids, our oldest at that time was about to be 12, right? Was about to be 12. And so we're like, we sat there and we were like, man, 10 years, he could be graduated college and married. Right. And we were just like, I was essentially in this, in this job that was kind of over and done and knew it. And I was like, I don't want this anymore. And she's like, we just sat there and like, what, we got to do something right. The kids are going to keep wanting to eat. Right. And so I think like we had a conversation in that window too, and it was just like, he told some of that same story he told today and it was just like, yeah, like, I don't, I don't want to work for anybody. I want to, I want to do me, and I want to own my schedule, and I want to put my stamp on something, you know? Marks of things, hey, see that business that works way better than it used to, I want to be a part of that. Can we back up a step, because you became acquainted with EOS and the traction model, Mm hmm. And A job. Yeah. Well, I was that after the group shortly after. Yeah. So that was. So I worked there. I worked a nonprofit after that. And then I worked for a roofing company and then worked for a local company called Pet Dine and I read Traction during that window and I was like, we had some of the pieces, right? So in, in us they talk about the six components, right? And we had great vision. We had a, an owner who was fantastic. Um, he and I are even, we're going to have whiskey tomorrow. Like. Still a great friend. Like, um, so we had some of these pieces. We have whiskey here, by the way, if I didn't Oh, yeah? Maybe we need to take a break. We can. Time out. Okay, take a break. Time out. Uh, I would have never imagined how immature I would feel as a 50 year old almost now. You agree, Gene? Like, oh, I thought I was actually supposed to grow up, but I think just about the same as I did when I was 12. Right? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, we just contained it a little bit more. I was telling somebody that the other day. He's got a bigger body. That's right. Same size brain. Yeah. I was telling somebody the other day, I was like, because my birthday was in November, and I was like, man, I think at 41 I feel more like myself than I ever have. Yeah. And like, I remember like high school being like, oh no, I'm 100 percent myself, but it's like, it was all fake. Yeah. Didn't know. We've got a, a fresh guest in the room here. Uh, young man, would you, uh, care to introduce yourself? You can lean over toward, yeah, the microphone. My name is Kai. Kai. How old are you? Twelve. And, uh, the last thing I noticed was you sticking your finger up your nose kind of thing. Trying to make your granddad laugh. Yeah, yeah. Are you class clown type? No. No? Not the class clown? Just likes making his papa laugh. What's your favorite things? Uh, basketball. Uh, video games. And hanging out with friends. And math. No. Not math. You're just good at it. Ah, instinctively good. That's dangerous. They'll try to turn you into an engineer or something. Yeah. Put him on the finance side, maybe. Yeah. So, well, thanks for, uh, jumping in the room for us a little bit. Um, do you mind if I give those, uh, headphones back to your gramps there? Because he can, uh, engage in the same way. Otherwise he won't be able to know what's going on. I like that hair, by the way. Does that take work to make it kind of little spiky braids? Or does it just kind of do that for you? I use this, like, sponge thing. Oh, and like, ch ch ch ch. Huh. Yep, his does it naturally, though. Nice. So, we tried to do it on mine, it didn't work. Yeah. Yeah. Wouldn't, wouldn't I imagine. It wouldn't knot up. Yeah, because maybe you have a different hairstyle. Yep. And also you put gel on your hair almost every day. This is true. You're not supposed to tell people that your dad puts gel on his Oh, that's wrong. I use pomade myself. Yeah, I wake up and it looks like this. Yeah. Naturally beautiful. Um, so I'm trying to remember where we left off. Well, we left off with bourbon. Oh yeah, we left off with bourbon. Cheers to the bourbon. You can't have any. Yeah. It's kind of exactly what you'd expect from an Irish whiskey and a bourbon whiskey mix. Yeah, it's good. It's not bad. It's nice. I've never mixed it before, but it was like, yeah, this is on sale and I've never heard of anything like it. It's good to try them. You never know. And so, who was this person that you just had bourbon with, or you're going to have bourbon with, that you were talking was a mentor of sorts? Preston Munch. That's where we left off. Yeah. He's a, he's an amazing, him and his dad. Oh, this is Pet Dine. Yeah, Pet Dine. Oh, so let's jump back on there. So they had amazing vision. Yeah. Yep. Amazing vision. We had, I'd probably say. Uh, you know, going back to the U S model, you have vision, you have people, you have data, you have issues, you have process and you have traction, the six components. Right. Okay. We had amazing vision already there as I'm reading five out of five. Right. Yeah. And like, uh, I'm like reading this. I'm like, we have core value. We got all this. Okay, great. Next one. People. Okay. We're like 90 percent there. Right. Like, that's pretty good. I have no idea at this time. I'm reading a book. Like, right. You know? And so like, get to data. Oh, we kind of have data. We don't, you know, but that's pretty standard for business, right? Especially when it's growing fast and whatever. Right. And so it was like, we're working through that and then it's like, we get to the issues one and I'm like, Oh, we can really use some of this. Right. So it was, it was more problem solving stuff, right? Like, like the, one of the things we teach in there is IDS identify, discuss, solve. Right. And so it was even doing that with my own team and then doing that with our leadership team, like we started to solve problems and we're just sitting there and we're like, Wow. I think this is stuff that's coming from that book I've been reading. Yeah, this is great. Like, where'd you get those? It's from a book, you know? And so, like, I say, quote unquote, we self implemented. But like, we had a lot of the pieces, I think, already there due to such amazing leadership from Preston and Kent. Instincts. Business instincts. Kent, right? And they had learned stuff over time. And then the, the, the ability then for us to implement those things. I mean, we were, I was employee number 11 and this was like Four or five years ago, something like that. And we grew to, um, almost 500 people. That's a rocket ship. Yeah, right? So talk to me about that. Like, why did you become employee number 11 at this kind of bootstrapped startup kind of thing? Or was it bootstrapped? Was it invested? I mean, at that point, I think they were, when they hired me They were probably 18 or 20 million already on a bootstrap team. Oh my. And so it was like Revenue per employee. Right. And so it was like, okay, we need help. Yeah. Kind of thing. Right. A lot of free cash flow makes it easy to invest in help. Yeah. Came in as director of marketing at that point and it was like, I came in, I'm like, I don't think we need marketing. Like we have so many It was a referral business. Right. Right. You had, you, they, we did the same thing. Right. We took care of clients. And you cared for those clients. I mean, we had about a hundred clients to get to that point. Tell me about the business a little bit more. So it was contract manufacturing. So we did, um, primarily we did, uh, soft chews. So things like no bake cookie, right? And they're in shapes of, like, hearts. Or the things that we put medicine in for my doggie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they, they were The, the change on those a little bit was they were for things like hip and joint, skin and coat. So they were a treat, but they were also a beneficial treat, right? And so you feed your dog and then you give your dog a skin and coat. Or you give your dog a hip and joint because they're limping. Or, you know, something like that. And so, had a lot of that. And then the whole unicorn piece of that, I think, in my opinion then is is COVID, right? COVID hits, and you know, it's the first time ever that New York and LA humane societies had zero dogs to, to be adopted. Oh wow. Right? So like pet ownership skyrocketed. Interesting. Right? And so like. And everybody has discretionary cashflow to give them the best little heart and skin. And then they're home. And then they're home with them. Yeah. So they're sitting at home and they're walking their dog every day now. Yeah. And they never did that before. Right. Cause they're just want to get out of the house and all of a sudden they notice that their dog limps or their dog's coat isn't as healthy as it should be or. Whatever, so they start buying, well that's what you call like fur on, on like our dog Hank, we call his fur, it's called a coat, skin and coat. So, it was a contract manufacturing business? Yes. Yep. So, but you gotta, to grow that fast, you gotta scale up a lot, or did you just acquire other manufacturers? Yeah, so we had a, we had an amazing partner that we later merged with in Illinois. Okay. Called, uh, the Pound Bakery and Pedigree Ovens. So we merged with them and they made, Most of our product at that point. Okay. And then as that's all happening, that's what had to happen, right? So we the we bought another place Our offices there's still offices there over off Harmony Timberline and then across the way we had bought an old Farmer Brothers coffee place Okay, right next to the archery. Yes. Yep. Yep, and that became like our first Colorado place Okay, and that was from a shipping perspective. Yeah from we had clients who were like, can we get anything closer? So we don't have to ship all the way across, you know? And so, yeah, so we did that and then we started making additional products there and then purchased a place out in Windsor, right next to legends field. Wow. And the complex. Um, and that was kind of the grand plan to what you're saying of like, we have to be able to, to support them as they're growing and, and. To, to be able to keep up with that, as well as the other people that were coming and asking us. have to actually have it. Right, exactly. You only can run them so fast and so long. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so that was kind of the scale up plan. Wow. Yeah. So, I imagine that, like, seeing, in the face of that kind of rapid growth, seeing that system kind of be functional throughout and identifying and solving. Yeah, it was amazing. Like, I would go and do it all over again. And, and I told Preston that, I was like, this, it was, it was just amazingly fun. Like. So did you, your company get bought out then? Yep, so I think it was, ah, like two, two and a half years ago, something like that. Um, they sold. Um, to a large, um, uh, I think it's like a fortune 10 somewhere in there. Archer Daniels Midland. Oh, right. Um, and so they, they came in and supported and did a lot of things and we worked with them through transition and that kind of stuff, and then just kind of knew that it was. Not my, yeah. Meet the new boss. Yeah. Not the same as the old boss. Yeah. Had a few bosses in that window, like three three, I think. And so it was just, you know, it just changed, right. Like, you know, any time of transition and, and you know, it was time for, for something else. And, and you know, we had, dad and I had a conversation, I think, like I said in there somewhere that was like. Yeah. He could tell I wasn't happy. Right. And it was, you know, I think he knew what I should do, but he, as, as a wise person, asking questions that lead you there is better than telling you what you should do. Yeah. That's, uh, I kind of, right. I'm kind of the opposite land. If you ask me to do something, I probably will. If you tell me to do something, I probably certainly won't. Yeah. So what was like that? Like for you, Gene, while you're watching him go through this rocket ship ride, right? Like he was, Super happy to go to work and then all of a sudden he didn't want to go to work. So it was time to move on. Fair enough. Um, and did you evaluate a lot of options and things or, yeah, I did, um, it was hard. Like I'm a very loyal person. And so we had a team of people that I felt very, um, that I needed to be loyal to and essentially protect and support and fight for, um, until I realized I didn't have the voice that I used to have. All right. And so, um, it was just one of those conversations of. You know, and my wife knew my personality. And so she kind of knew, I think, and I'm assuming, I would assume you and Elena probably had a conversation or some point knowing that, yeah, he's just got to figure it out. He's got to get there on his own. And, and, uh, finally did. And, you know, over course of events and yeah, had a few irons in the fire and, but just kind of kept coming back and being like, man. Like we did a really poor job. I read a book. We didn't talk to anybody, right? Like there's got to be if it can do that for us, right? And it can poorly accomplish or poorly apply Yeah, like what could it do if it was done really really well and so I just started diving in and talking to people and asking around and I knew a guy out of oklahoma city who did it who i'd worked with before And he does what I do now as an implementer and I I talk to him a lot i'm a high fact finder on the on the thing and so it was like And he was great. He answered all the questions and, and it just made sense to me. Like it had kind of all the whistles. It was pastoral. It was, um, I'm curious about intentionally. So, um, like you're working with entrepreneurs, right? Like yourself or my dad in those moments, like shepherding them through something. Like if he's sitting in that where he was and it's like, Hey, insurance just spiked. I don't know if I can do this. Like, those are some of the conversations that I'm having with clients. Right. And it's like, they're like, we either have to go and scale big or we have to figure out a way to move on. Right. Like is some of the conversations. And so there's that pastoral element, which is. Check some of the boxes for me. Yeah. Um, and the freedom and all the other stuff. Sure. So, yeah. Tell me about the training process. Like, do they make you go on ride alongs for a while? Do they do a couple weeks in, you know, in the home office where they really indoctrinate you well on the Kool Aid flavors? Yeah, they have. They have what's called a boot camp. Yeah, we went to bootcamp. So essentially it's like three days, eight hours a day, plus some, I would say. Yeah, yeah. Cause you're studying. Plus cocktails at the end of the day. Right, plus, you know, and, and um, but the whole time, like, we get to the end of it and they're like, Hey, how do you feel? And everybody's like, Oh, exhausted and tired. And I'm like, Let's go. So good. I am, I am stoked. I am ready to go like bust through a wall and uh, and just get to work. Give you my first 30 clients. I'm ready. Yeah. Let's go. Yes. I like it. I like it. And it's been about a year, six months. I don't even know when. About six months, just under six months. Okay. That was August. So it was, I'm fresh into that. So it's been a good year. So, uh, Eugene, is your son happier in this new place? Oh yes. Yeah, way up here. That's good. That's good. Because you could have gotten a great job being somebody else's COO or whatever, right? Like, probably less risk. Yeah. Uh, maybe less, less freedom. Yep. Yeah, it would have been safe and, and for me probably comfortable with where I'm at. Yeah. And I think it was, my wife and I knew that we were going to have to take some jump at some point. And. This just kind of made sense. He was probably smarter in his timing of his jump or he did it with no kids. Right. Or he did it with five kids. Right. But pretty much a risk taker though. Yeah. Yeah. My wife was. Yeah. Well, sometimes that's a nice compliment. Yeah. Um, what else about business do you want to talk about? I mean, we don't want to do a commercial for EOS, but I guess why do you, why do people sign up for EOS? And why is it such a, like, there's a huge increase in the number of EOS implementers, right? We've gone from one to four in Northern Colorado, but you're all still friendly with each other and stuff. Yeah. Big blue ocean out there. Yeah. I think it's a lot of things. I think. Um, you have more businesses now than ever, obviously, that have gone through it and are, and are, are versed in it. I met a guy the other day from church that had went through it with somebody from Denver and he was like, you do that now. And he just, he'd been done with it for like a year and a half or something and he was, he just raved about it. Maybe Will Fresh. Yeah. Right. And he was just like, oh, it was amazing. Like, I'm gonna push people to you. Like this businesses have to do this. Right. It's, and, and it's one of those things we always tell clients. It's simple but not easy. Yeah, right. And if you read the book traction, like if, if nobody's read it, read the book traction, if you don't, if you want one, I'll give one to you. Like I'll say like, because it, it reading that book as, as Uh, leadership team member, I was like, this is a game changer if we can figure out how to do it. Actually do it. That's the hard part. Well, it's painful sometimes. Yes. Yeah. People, wrong people in the wrong seats and different things like that. There's a lot of pain points potentially. Yeah. But the gym is painful sometimes too. Right. Yeah. It's not good for you. Well, those are things you have to go through. Right. And those are some of the things that when you talk about why do people do it or why don't people do it? Like, I think there's. A few, a couple of kind of people that business owners that do want it right. And some of those people are, they're at a point where they're so frustrated and they've tried everything they can think of and they're hitting a ceiling of whatever dollar amount or people, whatever it is. And they're either at a point where I'm either throwing in the towel or great. I don't even know what this is. Let's give it a shot. Last dish effort, you know, and then you get the other people that are on the other side that are like, Um, you know, I have a, a guy that I'm working with in Wyoming and he's like, no, I've done business long enough and I've done it wrong every time. So I want to build it and do it right. Yeah. And you're going to help. Fair enough. Right. So it's all over the board. Yeah. I like it. You've seen some results already in a few, six months. Kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it's fun, man. I think more and more people are learning about it, which is great. Um, and I think the biggest thing to go back to the referral thing, right? Like it's my style and you're talking about like the, the other. Implementers, right? Like we're not, we don't, we're not in competition, right? If you're working for, I'll give them shout outs, Jen, Tom, Ken, Steve, Ricks, the new one in Windsor, like they're all amazing, right? Like the, the goal is to help the business and whoever fits with, with the business. And it's not a competition, right? Like, cause that's not why we got into it. We got in it to help businesses get what they want. And to then live the life they want, right? And so, that's why I got into it. I mean, that's a lot of the motivation for me. Exactly. You know, I saw some business people living the American dream during my banking career. And others that were a slave to their business. And, you know, it was at risk of putting them in a financial hard spot rather than a financial good spot. Yep. And I think that's probably something that I learned from him growing up. Like, he always coached whatever it was. I played soccer. He knew nothing about soccer, but he coached it every year. It just didn't matter. I read a book, read everything. He found a soccer coach and asked them what you're supposed to do, but he was there. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, so becoming a dad and then missing something because I had a meeting that I was told I had to be at when my son was doing something or being at my son's hockey practice and being asked why it wasn't at my desk. Yeah. Well. Because my son is more important. Sorry. Like, I learned that from him, right? He showed that to me. Well, and it's starting to, you know, employees are finding favor with employers that are, that are, that are flexible in those fashions, you know, and businesses that give you that opportunity to be flexible in your, and some businesses need you to be there pounding the hammer when the hammer needs to be pounded. Right? There's, there's both. Um, we always, do you want to jump? Young man. Yes. Yeah. There's some snacks out there. Let's take a pause. Okay. We'll take a pause. I can see you're getting resting and we'll bring it back. There you go, And we're back. And we're back. We're back. We're back. Childless. Yes. Yeah. Uh, well, except for the three of us, I suppose. Yes, right. Yeah. So, um. We like to always talk about faith and family and politics in this, uh, conversation, um, because it's such a family oriented conversation, I feel like we should start there. What, uh, like, what's the example that you saw your father set in that space? He, in, oh, man, there's a lot. I think the biggest one I think of is just with my mom. Like, he, he's a man of few words, outside of today. And on a podcast, um, but he, he loved her devotedly, like, and for me, like watching that as a believer and as a, uh, as his son was like incredibly moving, like to watch. My mom went through a lot, like in her life. Um, and she passed in April of 21, um, from, uh, multiple complications of things. And so, but to watch him, I mean, she had breast cancer when I was in third grade. She, um, had bouts and difficulties with alcohol. She had, um, esophageal cancer, um, and then, you know, like going through all those things and watching him. Not waver. Gotta be steadfast. Yeah. And like, he just was by her side. Like, and it was kind of like what he talked about with Grandpa Hazen, right? Like, this, the, and I tell my kids now, like, the right thing is the right thing, even if it's hard. And he did the right thing. And it was hard. It was hard. Like, and to, to watch him cry over her and to watch him. Um, just pray probably, yeah, and just hold her hand and she's not in response, like, and to see him do that, like, that is like, you want to see a man of God that does what the Bible says from a marital standpoint. There it is. Yeah. Like, and I saw it, you know, it's plain as day. So yeah, it was hard. It's a hard time. Where did you find strength in that faith? Yeah. Church. Fair enough. Great to have that community there. Great family there. I drugged, you know, my wife out of the middle class as a banker's wife. She had never made more than like 15, 000 before. I quit the bank and started trying to start a restaurant that turned into a food trailer and then this weird local think tank thing sprouted out of that. But she was, you know, even when I was at my worst and hating the, some of the decisions I'd made that took me from a 90, 000 income earner to a 12, 000 income earner. Uh, she was like, well, you know, I'm beside you, you know, that's the way that this works. And, you know, if we're marching into the swamp, well, we'll try to get out of the swamp together. Uh, so, yeah, that sounds like that was quite a season. Very similar. Several seasons, it sounds like. Yeah, well, when she, she taught for 35 years. Wow. Was never an issue then. But when she retired, she had no plan. Hmm. Yeah. That was the problem. Yeah. She had no plan. She had lots of things she wanted to do. Yeah. But never ever really got to going on them. Hmm. And just had too much time on her hands. Yeah. to do. That's one of, uh, one of the reasons for the existence of Loco Think Tank. You might not realize that, but in my years of banking, I would see that people would sell their business a lot of times, and then they would have all that. Absence of responsibility and leadership, and then they would do destructive things. Yeah. Get girlfriends or Mm-Hmm. or alcohol or other, you know, challenges and find something to fill the spot. Yeah. Idle hands of the devil's playground. Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly. And uh, that remains true whether you're a man or a woman or, and some personalities are more wired for it. Yeah. I didn't have a problem with that myself, but, yeah. Well, it sounds like you kept your hands busier. Yes. I had a plan. She did not have a, and she knew it. It's a shame. Yeah. Well, may her, uh, lessons even here be, be useful for somebody else in the world at some point, I hope. Yeah, exactly. Um, we, one of the things we do in the family segment, uh, you said you've got five. Yeah. Um, and are they a mix of natural and adopted? Yeah. Or where did they come along the journey here? Yeah, so we have five. As of right now, they're 12, 12, 10, 8, and 6. Um, and so, they, they, they go every other. Um, and so, oldest is Bio. Um, second is Kai, who was sitting here earlier. Yep. And then Gavin is Bio. And then the fourth is Ella. And then the fifth is Charlie. And so, three boys and two girls. And what's the oldest name? Uh, Hazen. Hazen? So, after Grandpa Hazen. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Um, we always do a one word description. Oh, gosh. Of each of us kids. And I think we might as well do it for the grandkids in your case. Okay. If that's okay. So, uh, I'll give you each a shot at that challenge. One word for each kid. Um, for Hazen, I would say, Intelligent. Pack a lot into that word. Yeah, that's why I have to get one for Hazen. Yeah. I'd say bookworm. Same thing, right? No, just kidding. Just absorbs, absorbing all the, all the information you can. You just sit and read a book. Yeah. I dig it. Yeah, I've devoured them. Yep. How about Kai here? Kai, was making faces trying to get you guys to laugh through the podcast studio door. Yeah. I would say Kai is, in one word, passionate. I dig it. Mm hmm. Yeah, he's very compassionate. Yeah. Both. Yeah. Do a twist on that. Yeah. Gavin, I would say, is devoted. Okay. Uh, he is, Doesn't care about his body. He'll die for that volleyball. He plays hockey. His body is not a thing. It doesn't matter. He'll board somebody even though he's not supposed to. He's the guy that slides across on those bellies trying to stop the puck. Yeah. He hopes he gets a tooth knocked out. Yeah. He's like your friend that wanted to be in the front line. Exactly. Same thing. Yeah. Had that mentality. Ella, I would say Peaceful. She's super kind. Well, being super kind will bring a lot of peace. I mean, really kind. And then Charlie, I would say firecracker. She is out of bounds. She don't care. She will do it. Is she a redhead? Sounds like me. No, she's got Hazen's brain. And Gavin's mindset, and she's gonna, I mean all of them, they all are gonna like, they're all gonna change the world and do great stuff. Um, you know, and this kid who's staring at us is no exception. Talk to me about uh, the mix of bio and adoption, and where do you come along, these youngsters, or how's that process? Yeah, so, um, we knew, I knew when we got married that, Elena had a heart to adopt when we're dating. She said super cute things, but she was super cute. So you just kind of go, yeah, that's cool. But she was like, I want, um, I want. I want two families. I want like five or six of our own and then I want to adopt a kid from every continent and I'm like, oh, you're so beautiful. She doesn't really mean that. She doesn't mean that. And then, so we had, we had, uh, at first we were told that we couldn't have kids. Oh. And then, uh, like I remember storming out of a, a I went to my doctor's office because they said, no, it's not possible. And I was like, one of the, like, I'm not in these, you don't know my God. Right. Like, and that's not me. Like, I don't like, I don't, but in that moment it was like, don't tell me it's not tell me that it's highly improbable. Okay. Yeah. I'll take that. You tell me it's not possible. Like. Well, anything is possible. I'm calling BS. And so we, we left that and miraculously we, we got pregnant. And so we had, we had Hazen and Gavin. Um, and then we just felt like something was missing. And so we started to talk about adoption or what that would look like. And it was honestly, it was a no brainer. It was more of a international versus domestic. And I was domestic and she was international for our own reasons. So we're walking through that and figuring out. We had a friend at church that had, um, uh, that was in the process. And so it then happened really fast. And it was like, we applied and we did this and like that. And it was like, then I remember they sent us. Um, it was right before Christmas. I was building shelves in my house. I think I called you the same day right after it. And I was, I was mad because they sent us two pictures of two kids and they're like, essentially, which one do you want? And I was like, uh, no, no, this is not. And I was, I was. I was pissed. I was like, this is not how it works, right? Like this is like, no, you don't make us, this is not okay. Right. But you're right. Right. I appreciate your indignancy. Yeah. Right. And, and at that time, like, but at the same time sitting there and being like, okay, like if God, if you're doing something like do it, I guess. Right. And it was like, in this kid's picture, this kid's picture, we still have it. And. That was my son. I knew instantly. Right. I said, that's my kid. Huh. And, um, we did the process. It took about a year. I lived there for, or we were there as a family for, uh, where is this? Uganda. Okay. Yep. We were there as a family. Gosh. I forget now it's been so long. I want to say like six months. I was there. It was a long time. I don't know. Was this a, a church organization related thing that you had to do a certain amount of No, so like we Youth pastor work. No, yeah, right. No, so like we, we went there and we, we stayed. Like we didn't know, we didn't, we didn't know anybody. Like we got to the, I had Hazen and Gavin, I had my wife and I had my mother in law. And we're flying into Kampala airport and they wouldn't give us a picture of the guy who's picking us up. All we knew was his name was Steven. So we're, we're like walking through this airport and I'm like, it's pitch black. It's like dark. And I'm like, I'm sweating bullets. Right. And I'm like, I have no, and finally like he came up and we figured like God willing and um, met Kai. And so we stayed there and we were supposed to be done. Um, with the process we needed one more court date and so we sent, um, the Elena and her mom and the boys back and I was like, I'll stay. It's like a week. She had, she had stuff to get back to you, get the kids in school, like all that kind of stuff and went in the next day or two days later and the lady wouldn't sign the document. So it tacked on another 12, six to eight weeks. Wow. And all she wanted was a couple hundred dollars. Oh really? Right. Right. And it's like. You're going through that and you're like, at that point, you're like, okay. She should have just been more clear with you earlier. Yeah, just tell me what you want. Don't tell me that's not possible. Tell me how much money you need. He came home and He's been here. He was three at that time and he he just turned 12 in August cool And he's doing amazing. He's he's incredible and and awesome and Then Ella was a few years later and we were done with kids like we were done We had three boys you thought we were done like and we go to church and Elena had been talking to the person our coordinator Adoption coordinator and like, Hey, we have these kids and they need to be adopted. They're going to close it off and they're not going to be able to be adopted. And she's like, no, we're done. And she's like, Oh, just pray about it. And so she's not telling me any of this. Right. Right. And so then we go to church like that week and our really good friends the Banes were on Talking about adoption or something like that and she just starts ball Like hysterically and I'm like, are you pregnant? Like what is going on? Like, no, but I think we have to adopt that child. Yeah. It's we get in the car and she goes, she goes, yeah, no, but we need to adopt. And I was like, yeah, duh. Like I had already, I felt the same thing in that, in the insane moment. It's just, she was like, so we started that process. And then it was literally like a day or two before we left to go bring Ella home. She calls me and tells me she's pregnant. Oh wow. So we went from three to five. Yeah. Like how you get chunks. Quick. And then, how many more continents do you have to add? Oh gosh, no we're done. What? I don't know. We're done. We've done all, well let's say this. If God does his thing, it seems like he'll respond. We've done everything in our, in our power to, to cut it off. But we, um, we. are, are done. If he deems it, then he deems it. Yeah. It's not impossible. Correct. But we're preparing against that notion at this moment. Yeah. Fair. Um, tell me about this woman, uh, in your life that really changed the trajectory. She is And what's her name? I don't know. Her name is Elena. Elena, sorry. Yep, with an E, Elena. Yep. Um, and she, Oh, do you have a daughter Elena too? Nope. Oh, okay. Sorry. I misplaced this. Oh, yeah. Similar. Um, and Elena is, You don't have to do a one word description. Oh, okay. Good. I don't think I could. Um, like she's driven. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. She's driven, but she's, she's my, she's my ride or die. Like I can't, I've never met someone who had such belief in me. Yeah, and who would cheer me on almost no matter what and say, yeah, let's go. Let's do it Yeah, I'm with you like you were talking about before Yeah Was it just like that for you guys like you met each other and she was like I'm a big fan of yours No, she turned me down. No, turn me down three times. Oh, no doubt. Yeah, and so We went on this campy trip and I like I had this surreal moment and I was like, yeah she's gonna be the one and and Like do all this stuff and then we got back and I asked her out and like it was like jokingly turn me down but we say that she turned me down like sometimes like gotta wash my hair and then one of them was like Oh, i'm watching the kids and i'm like you have kids like She didn't do you think she was just not quite ready for what that could have? No, she knew she was just giving me a hard time She knew I dig it. Yeah, it was pretty quick for both of us. So I think it was We started dating in October, and we were married by that July. And uh, Not too awful different from, from yours. Tell me about that love story for you, Gene. Other than the fact that it was a church choir gal and whatever, what, uh, what was it about you that made her want you to call on her a second time? Because that's what you did in those days, right? It wasn't quite the dating kind of the same way. No, no, we went, uh, we went out, uh, the first time we ever went out, we Um, of course I had my Roadrunner, which she wasn't. Well, that would get the babes for sure. And all I had was an 8 track tape of Buck Owens. That's pretty good. And she was a music major. Only listened to FM radio and Bach and Beethoven. Classical stuff and whatever. I changed her. That's good, that's good. She went to country. But the first time we went out We were, we were going to go do a movie. So we went to the Rialto. We went downtown here in Fort Collins. Okay. It was, uh, some kind of, uh, Bambi or Disney movie of some kind. Okay. No, no, we can't go there. So we go to Loveland. Same thing. It had a, some Disney movie on it. Oh God, what are we going to do now? So on the way back on, on, uh, 287 headed towards Fort Collins, there used to be a place called the Matterhorn. Years and years ago, there was a place. I've heard stories about that. And it was, it had two bands. There was a country band on one level and a rock band on the other level. Yeah, yeah. And we didn't know much about each other. So I just said, how about this? Stopping there and, and going dancing or, or have a drink. Yeah, yeah. And she said, yeah, let's do that. Ended up going dancing twice a week after that. Didn't take long before the proposal came after that. Yeah. Yep, it was a fun time. It was. Yeah, very cool. Yep. It was good. Let's, uh, should we talk, dash into faith just a little bit because that was kind of such a significant part of both your family backgrounds. Um, did you, you said you're Methodist early on and then, then Presbyterian, uh, did you My whole, my whole, well, my mother was Baptist. Oh, the Baptist. Yeah. And dad didn't They take it real seriously did not go to church. Oh, interesting. When they got married, he did not go to church. He was not at church. He was, uh, He had 13 kids in his family that grew up in Chamberlain, South Dakota, right along the river. And they never went to church, and so they moved to Nebraska to pick corn because there was no work up there. And anyway, they got married, and mom was Baptist, and when, I assume when, I think she told me when Margie was born, she said, I'm going to church. Yeah. You can either go, but I'm going. Yeah, yeah. And so he finally went. Oh, good. And then he, he became a staple in the church and did all the maintenance. Oh, cool. And that's how I got into doing a lot of maintenance then, cause I went with him. We had to, We had an old coal stoker. So if it wasn't for your mom encouraging and inviting, you probably never would have been a remodeler or builder. No, probably not. I never thought of that, but yes, that's probably true. And so I'd have to go help him, cause the stoker would get stuck, and we'd have to undo the coals, and it was all freakin black coal. Right, I'm sure he crawled you, had you crawl in there, unplugging the thing. And so then he would do all the fixin the doors, and fixin the locks, and, and so then he'd end up going every Sunday. Yeah, good. Then us kids went every Sunday. Yeah, yeah. It was expected to go. Yeah, for sure, for sure, yeah. Tell me about that, uh, by the time you came along, Justin. Yeah, it was the same. It was like a non negotiable. Right. Like it was, uh And what church did you settle into here locally? Timnath Presbyterian Church. Okay. Oh yeah. He still goes there. I've been there, um, I bet you, I went to somebody's funeral there who was an old banker guy that everybody knew. Yep. Um, I bet you knew him too. Probably. Gosh, what was his name? Um, anyway, a few years ago it was now, but. Yeah. Anyway, I digress. Yeah. And it was, yeah, it was a non negotiable and, and I remember, like, when I was playing soccer, it was, well, when I was a kid, like, It was, um, me and a buddy, John, would sneak off into the, it was the pastor's parish at the time, I think, right? The other building? Was it still the office? It was still the office. But we could go over there and they had an antenna and we could get football. So we'd sneak over there and watch football. And they'd be like, where are they at? And then we'd have to hide real quick. So we would do that, but it was like It was the same kind of thing. I remember playing soccer and we'd have state cup on Sundays. And it was like, sorry, if it's in the morning, Justin, you're not going to play. And I was like, devastated. Like, this is state cup. It was my life. Right. And so, but, you know, growing up, you start to learn. Okay. Probably not gonna, the percentage that make the U. S. men's national team is pretty small, right? Right, right. You know, there's only 11 guys that play at any one time, and, you know, so you start to realize how big of a deal it is, and then I think Um, you know, we had a really good youth program, and a lot of parents that were super involved and made it super fun. Obviously, you got very plugged in, because you were, you know, going to sell shoes and be a youth pastor. And I think, like, that was great, and I had an opportunity to kind of step in and lead and do some stuff like that, and then there was a moment in high school where I think I started to Like, we did, do you remember this? I don't know if you remember this. Mom and I had this conversation. We did, we had, Presbyterian Church, you did confirmation. Yep. And I remember sitting through these classes and being like, I don't remember what was said, but something was like, yeah, no, this isn't right. Nope. Mm mm. And I remember walking out and being like, Mom, I'm not doing this. Hmm. And I don't think I ever went through with it. I don't think I ever did, like, you're supposed to, like, graduate. And I was like, and I was like, Like something they were teaching you didn't jive with or something? Something didn't make sense. Something didn't. I don't, I don't remember what it was, but it was just that gut moment of like, and it wasn't, she probably took it as a disobedient thing, but it was definitely a like, no, it just doesn't feel right to me. Like something doesn't make sense. And it was cause it wasn't mine yet. It was, it was a choice that they were saying, you're going to go through these things and then you're going to say that you love Jesus. And I was like, I don't know if I do right. Kind of thing. And I was like. And so then I went to, I told mom and dad, I said, I'm going to a different church. And so I went to my buddy's church I moved to Wichita with. Okay. I went to Vineyard. Okay, yeah. And, like, that was mind blowing. Like, completely opposite church wise. Yeah, like, super old school kinda compared to, like, very seeker friendly kinda element or whatever. Yeah, choir and organ to, like, guitars and drums. Right, right. And I was like, okay. Like, and that's where I think I really started to understand. Like, okay, God isn't just one way, he's very different, he's all encompassing, he's in everything. Right. Why wouldn't we expect to see different kind of perspectives of him? Like, you can worship next to my parents with a hymn, and you can worship next to this rock band, and it's the same. And there's no, it's not wrong, right, and different. Our, uh, our church is The Crossing, uh, which is Kind of like a descendant of Presbyterians, mostly, I guess I would say, and, uh, Our pastor sometimes makes jokes like, well, we don't, You know, we don't have all the old timey hymns, but we don't have any Jesus is my boyfriend songs either. So we have a certain standard that we hold to. But anyway, I digress. I would suppose so, yeah, we're halfway toward the vineyard thing, but still one foot in the old Presbyterian world. Yeah, anyway, I digress. Yeah. Yeah, so that's cool. So you came in then have you stayed kind of in that more maybe charismatic or evangelical space? Yeah, we we go to Mill City now. Sure. And we love it like Being a former pastor like there was a I call Mill City kind of has been our safe place yeah, and it was a great place to kind of repair and rebuild and reenergize and And our kids love it, like our kids get sad when we, when we can't go or we don't go or miss it for some reason. And that alone, I think for me is something I learned from them too, it was like, you know, it wasn't just, part of it was going to go, but there was a disciplined habit I think around that too. If you go and you put yourself around, business side too, you put yourself around the people you want to be like. And the people that, you know, can lift you up and encourage you when life hits or things hit or whatever. That's, that was part of that. One of my guests from a couple months ago, One of his mentors wrote a book called Join or Die. And it was really examining kind of the relative decline of things like Jaycees and Rotary Clubs and, and churches and things. And like a lot, a lot, a lot of people are not a part of anything. Like, their HOA is the thing that they're the most plugged into, and it's because they're pissed about the color codes on the house approvals. And this person, at least the theory espoused, is that being a part of some community, any community, is crucial, and we needed more of it. Which is interesting, like, if you and mom would have said, and I came out of confirmation or whatever, and I would have said, No, I don't want to. And you would have said, No, you're doing it. Right? Like your, your parent parental ability in those, in that moment was like, I mean, just think about what would happen if I would, if you would have said that and I would, uh, you know what I mean? Like I would have went, I could have went the opposite direction, but they, they swallowed it. And said, we pray that he'll figure it out. Yeah. Your, your path. Right. Being a 15 or whatever, however old I was. Right. So like, yeah, to your point. Well, that's part of the Presbyterians too, right? They're like, well, God will figure it out the way he's going to figure it out. Like, or is it the Calvinists? I don't know. I don't remember. Yeah. I don't get that deep. Yeah. Uh, let's touch on politics. Yeah. Why not? Love it.= Uh, who are you excited about Biden or Trump? Uh, neither. It's hard. If I had to pick between the two, I'd have to go Trump. I would, I would have to go Biden. Nope. But I'm not excited. I actually want to put forward a petition to say, um, how about as America, we agree that both of those guys retire and we'll just start the whole primary process over and have a do over because it was actually when Biden said that if Trump wasn't running, I'm not sure I would run either, which is a. Super compelling vision. Uh, sorry. Yeah, let's go! Cool! Let's go! I'm doing this because I was to stop the orange man bad. Yeah, yeah. It's like Anyway. It's a sad situation, I think, when we have people in that stage of life that are vying for that place. But you guys said that a lot, too. Like, I remember we talked about it and it was like, every time I always feel like there are always bad options. Yeah. Like, there's never like, I'm 100 percent in on this person. No. For me. I'd like to be 20%. Right. Right. In on somebody though. Yeah. Uh, I digress. It comes down to what issue or, you know, what, what's the most important. Yeah, for sure. So. Well, it's way harder now than it used to be. Hmm. Oh, so. Well, there's so much more. So scrutiny. Yeah, there's so much more going on. Yeah, JFK could have had lots of girlfriends and nobody said boo, right? I mean, you go back to Reagan, you go back to Reagan, or even further back than that, uh, Eisenhower. I mean, the wars were over. It was good times. Um, you didn't have to worry about all these countries, you didn't have to worry about China, you didn't have to worry about, there was, it was so much easier then, and it was. They probably didn't make as many mistakes then and they didn't have to make a lot of decisions that they have to do now. Right, there's probably some truth to that. And now, there's something coming up all the time. Yeah, yeah. Well, and you almost have to be wired for Corruptible power to want to have the job because I think it's obvious that corruptible power is mostly what, not just the president, but your senators, your representatives. That's what they're all looking for. Most of them, unfortunately. And a lot of them that get in for the right reasons after a few years of like, there's no money in being uncorruptible. How can we fix it? Any ideas on that front? I don't know. You try and vote for the people you think will do the best for You, and the country, but then when they get in there, it's tough, because if you don't scratch the other guy's back, he's not going to vote for your stuff. Yeah, I'm kind of a libertarian kind of guy, and it's like, well, how's that ever going to work? You can't give any favors out to get the votes and the money to get elected. So I guess that's not going to work. So if you get the real big guys that have a lot of money that are corrupt and vote and give you all the money. You'll probably win. That's what Martin Lidd told me when I, uh, I asked Martin why he didn't run for politics and he's like, I don't know why I'd want to be a politician when you can buy one for so cheap. There you go. Or rent one. I don't know if he was talking rent or own, but. A lot of sense there. A lot of sense, yes. I don't blame him. I wouldn't want to be there either. Um, The Loco Experience is our closing segment. So that's the craziest story of your whole lifetime that you're willing to share, uh, with our listeners. The craziest story. The craziest story. You have way more than I do. It could be just an hour, it could be a week, it could be a day in the life, who knows. You have way more crazy stories than I do. You go, I'll have to think about it in a minute. I can think of like, five for you. Well, we'd hate to have you try to beat Gene. Yeah, fair enough. So why don't you start first? He can beat you with plenty. Man, craziest story. Craziest story. In your life. I mean, the Uganda thing seems a little crazy. Yeah, that, I mean, that was probably, that's probably where I'd go. Like, like literally I had a guy driving, like, uh, uh, back up, go back to the airport. Okay, yeah, Stephen. We didn't know this dude. Like, like, like, you want to be, you want to feel like my son and daughter feel in Fort Collins. Like, go to, go to Africa. Right. Go to the airport. Is your daughter from Africa as well? Yeah, she's from Uganda as well. Okay. Right, and like, like, instant, like, okay, everybody's looking at me. Right. I don't know who you are, and one of you is supposedly my ride. Like, and then the whole process, like, I hope we pick the right guy. And I hope that we're going to this place with my wife and my kids and my mother in law. And then, you know, fast forward, like walking into a random lady's office cause she won't sign a document and trying to talk to her and she won't talk to me. And she just pounds, like pounds the table and says, Hey, you can't, I'm not going to talk to you. Right. And I'm like, how much money do you want? Right. Like pounding the table with her. And it's like, just moments like that where you're just like. I was like, are we really doing this? Yeah. Like, is this real? You know? And so, our ability to, yeah, it was just, that's probably, there's more stories to that. She should have told you that was not possible. Yeah, right. Yeah. Then it then it's over, right? She knew better. Right? Well, and even in that, like, we had judges in there, like, the judge in that, in that case, wouldn't talk to me. He only talked to my wife. Oh, interesting. Cause he thought he could intimidate her and get what he wanted out of her and shame her and do all these things and she was like She knew what kind of walking in like what he was gonna do, right? There's just all these was that what you were just trying to get squeezed by the system for more juice Basically, I mean it was things like like they're trying to tell us. Hey, you have to come back every year Oh. And present him. Oh gosh. Before the court. And I'm like, Pound Sand. Right, I can't do that. Are you gonna come to America and get me? Right. If I don't? Like, what are you gonna do? Like, live Uh, can we talk to your wife instead, sir? Yeah, it's like, it's like, if he wants. Just give me more money. If he wants to go back, great. Sure. But like. I'm not gonna keep him from it. Yeah, they just wanted the tourism dollars. Interesting. Yeah, right. So, okay, your turn. I don't know where to go. There's, the craziest moment. A moment or day or week or just an experience? Well one of them was probably when I, uh, had to call my parents when I enlisted in the Marine Corps. They, it was silence. Mom said, you did what? With who? And she knew that they were probably the ones that were going to be in the front, which I lucked out and I wasn't. So, I mean, then when I got over there, it was like, I was super lucky. And you're like, Mom, I was going to get drafted and then I was going to be in the army and that was going to be worse. She didn't, well, I'm sure, I'm not sure I understood that either, because I didn't know at the time when I enlisted in the Marine Corps where I was going to go. Yeah, yeah. I could have been in infantry. I could have been in the front lines. Yeah, yeah. But I think with your, what you did with your, the test you had to take, that's what gave you your MOS. Hmm. And the better you did on the test that they give you. That's how they put you in. Oh, so some of that schooling you got in your one room schoolhouse I think so. Qualified you to be a good supply guy or whatever. And when I went to trade school, that had Oh, right. stuff to do with it. Because some of the test was putting stuff together in blocks and dumb stuff, I thought. Yeah, it's interesting listening to your talking about this story. My dad was talking to the Air Force because he was going to get drafted. Mhm. And then The war was over. Yeah. And so he didn't get, and then I was conceived a few months later. Right. So my life would have been different, uh, except for a few providential things as well. Yep. Yep. Interesting. Well, I've sure enjoyed this. I hope that you gentlemen have as well. It was. It was very fun. Yeah. Thank you, Kurt. And, uh, Gene, any, any last words of wisdom? Maybe something for this young man making faces through our podcast together. He's probably hungry again. What one thing do you want him to remember after listening to this episode? Uh, that family matters. Yeah, sure does. And listen to your mother, young man, and your dad, and especially your grandpa. You have to stick together. Yeah, that's true. How are you guys? Well, Godspeed. Thanks much. Appreciate it. Thank you.