EXPERIENCE 141 | Building Value for Enterprise Clients in the world of Podcasting and Scaling a Remote Team with Jake Jorgovan, Founder of Content Allies and Owner of Listen Network

Jake Jorgevan is a serial entrepreneur and podcast industry expert, whom I first met at a Colorado podcasters gathering in 2022. He's the founder of Content Allies, a B2B podcast strategy, production, and promotion agency, and the owner of Listen Network, a targeted podcast promotion and cross promotion network. He's the co host of Leaders of B2B Podcast. And a guide to B2B podcasting, Jake has worked with some of the largest B2B companies in the world, including Meta, Siemens, Gusto, Alibaba, and Amazon web services to name a few. Jake has a recent transplant to Fort Collins, giving yet another example to choice city status of my home community. Jake provides our listeners with a behind the scenes look of a high growth agency and shares many tips and latest techniques they use for their clients to grow podcast listenership and build community. And growing this agency, Jake has also grown an international team of experts. And shares lessons on maintaining cohesion and values when spread among many time zones and cultures. And the journey hasn't always been smooth sailing. Jake is a serial entrepreneur from humble beginnings, a chubby and nerdy kid who went to the college for audio engineering, and has founded and pivoted and ceased several previous ventures. He is an introspective student of himself, a capable business leader and influencer, and a podcast industry expert. And I was pleased that he would share time for this conversation, and for his generous tips on growing the Loco Experience brand. Please tune in and meet yet another inspiring and entertaining Northern Colorado entrepreneur. My new friend and our latest guest, Jake Jorgeman. Welcome back to the Loco Experience podcast. My guest today is Jake Jorgethan. And Jake is the founder of Content Allies, as well as the owner of Listen Network. He's a podcast guy, expert compared to me. Yeah, but you got a pretty, you got a pretty nice setup in here. This is a studio. All our stuff's remote. Yeah, we don't do a lot of local. And so this is a, this is a cool experience. How many live podcasts have you been on? Like in person like this. Uh, in terms of this, I've done some like conference podcasting. I think like I've probably done less than 10 in person podcasts, despite the fact that we I think it counted at one point, we've done like 3000 podcasts as a company, but like, it's just all remote. Um, and kind of the world we're in and, but we, I did do some conferences where I, uh, yeah, you set up there and do, but it's like in a hotel room. So it's not like you have curated a space. You got all the table, the cables nicely tucked, like I've got, uh, my dinosaur in the potter plant here. By the way, that's you. That's the, I didn't offer, but I do have a joint in the other room if you want to smoke and that's the ashtray for joint smoking, so let me know if you want to, you know, jump on that. We're in Colorado, so I try to honor my guests, whatever they like. Maybe if I come back again, maybe. Okay. That's like a moment. I should probably refrain from professionalism. I actually had it in the, in the cup there and I was sitting here working. I was like, that stinks a lot. So it's in the other room. That's awesome. But those are yours. You didn't notice, but you get the coffee cup, the local experience hot sauce, and the branded spork. You're gonna like that spork. Sporks are handy. It's my favorite. Very, that one has a knife on it. It's a, it's a super spork, super spork. Yeah. Uh, absent finding a better name for us. Forks Knife. I love it. I, that's a, that's a better spork. I didn't know you could improve on the spork, but you did. It's a better spork. Um, so our listeners are like, okay, I'm exiting this one. No, just kidding. Uh, tell, tell people about content allies. Tell me about content allies, like what it is today, who you're working with, what you're doing. Yeah, it involves a lot over the years of really kind of where we landed on is we are a B2B content marketing company that really focuses. We've focused predominantly and made our name in podcasting B2B podcasting. We do podcasts for like Meta and Siemens and Alibaba and Gusto and a bunch of a bunch of large companies. And we do like enterprise level podcasting. I'm going to throw out Zendesk because they're our favorite. They're one of our favorites. So, uh, and like, but like we do that, but like, it's not just podcasting. It's like, okay, we're going to do podcasting as the core of a content strategy for a company. We're going to then repurpose that. And then we're going to like run ads to that. And we're going to use those ads to really drive toward like, you know, key, key aspects for companies. So it's really, we, we do small business podcasting as well, but I'd say like an enterprise is a, is a large chunk of what we're doing. Yeah. Um, And yeah, that's like this and you come up with it from some soup to nuts kind of or do people come to you with, Hey, we're looking for somebody to produce and create a podcast about this. Yeah. Or is it all different kinds? We've we've done a lot from taking over podcast. There's a lot of Half started podcasts and like enterprise world or people like get going and then they're like, ah, it's kind of like they need help But we also do a lot from scratch where we'll build up the whole concept I like I like to be there from the scratch because Often we take over we like rebrand a show because right it's just like there's psychology And how you brand a show like, you know, and like how you think about that and what the guests are going to perceive that show as, and like, if you're trying to do relationships or you're trying to build a brand for your company, like there's very different objectives. And that's, that's where I spend most of my time is like the strategy of that, of like figuring out how to hit a business objective. So what does the, uh, the Loco Experience podcast say to you or say about me, uh, and my sticker with the QR code face? I, I, I love it, man. I think you, like, I. Have been advocating local podcasts and, um, like, and you're one of the first people I've seen that's really nailed it because I'm just like you do, like, I was like, I was like, man, like any like real estate agent should like doing this, like there should be like, just like the, anybody like doing a local podcast, like it's just such a cool opportunity. Uh, and I don't think enough people are, are like leveraging this. I feel like it's a community service. Yeah. Like I get to share all these long stories of these amazing founders and leaders and Yeah. It, it, it puts you in the core of the community. Like, and, and in with this too there, like there's gotta be like monetary benefits that come out of this in ways that are really interesting as well. And, but like, it is like at the community, at the core you're doing Yeah. The social capital is way more than the revenue so far. For sure. Yeah. For like local, it just, it makes so much sense. So. Yeah, love what you're doing here, man. I think you got a good thing going. Yeah. Very kind. Um, so tell me like, uh, imagine a client engagement and is it you, you've got a team, you have a bunch of employees or contractors that produce this? Cause you can't make all these 3000 shows by yourself. No, we've got a team of about 60. Oh wow. Um, so we're pretty globally distributed. Okay. all over the world teams and some in USA, Canada. Uh, we've got a lot in Europe and Philippines and then South Africa, we've got a whole drum and bass, like there are these like drum and bass producers and they're like all awesome and like super organized and like they're amazing producers. So like we find these odd pockets of talent around the world, but um, it's really cool and fun. We enjoy it. So, so is that, uh, like a customer journey. Do they pay like per episode or retainer? Like, I'm just kind of curious about the market model of a business like yours. We really go in retainer. Like, cause the things like podcasting, like you're in podcasting, I'm sure, you know, there's like services out there where you can pay someone like 50 bucks to like edit a podcast episode. Well, it's very different than having a company. That is going to like help you strategize and guide you and like provide you reporting and give you metrics and like audit your show and stuff for them too, right? Yeah, we do like QBRs, so we like literally analyze all the shows. We have this whole entire deck and checklist we go through and all the things that they could be doing and like what we should prioritize and like. If you want to grow, then we recommend this. So it's all like this. It's, it's a strategy experience. Like that's where the value is. Like production is just a, a part of what it takes to get there. You have to create a good product so that the strategy will work. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If you create a crappy product, it doesn't matter how much strategy you have. Yeah. And that's where I think a lot of people, like it's, it's very easy to hire just like a base editor, but that doesn't mean you're going to go anywhere with the show. And that's what we try to help people because that's what we're good at is like figuring out how to turn a podcast. into some sort of monetizable thing in some capacity. How do you build a team of 60 scattered around the world? Like, how do you bump into people that you need skills wise? Is it just, like, I was a banker for a long time, and you knew all the other bankers, at least within a certain region. Is it kind of like that? Like, you're in the podcast world and just kind of know? Uh, so I think... I think hiring internationally is a skill. Okay. Um, and, and I think that that is just a, it's a skill a lot of people are scared of, but like, I encourage so many people to do it. Like, um, my, my real estate agent, shout out to Patrick Sukpak. Sukup? Sukup, Sukup. I gotta say, I don't think I've ever really known how to say his last name. I think I've just avoided it. Sorry, Patrick. Uh, but he, he introduced us, I think. Um. Oh, I thought it was Seth Silvers. Oh, it was Seth. Okay. No, it was Seth. Okay. I know Patrick well as well. Yeah, yeah. So, uh. But like, um, what the hell was I saying about him? Oh, about international hiring and international something. Yeah, so he, I got him to hire an executive assistant. Oh. And he had like assistants and people in real estate, but it was like, eventually when he brought on like an, an overseas assistant, it's like, Well, now his per people that are here on the ground are freed up to do way more impact. Like the costs are very low and like, it takes a skill to learn how to hire them. And there are people out there that will try to do like two jobs and stuff. But like, if you can learn how to do that, it is just like such an unlock. And it's honestly gratifying. Cause like. What is a very like lower than you would pay anyone here is life changing salary to someone right and Because they're like knockout great people. Yeah, like you get twice as much production for half as much money if you do it, right? Yeah it's like and it's just like finding that these people are just like lit up and when you give them like like wouldn't like we Found this like what our formula for podcast producers Is finding someone who's got a super nerdy podcast. And like, and they're crushing it in this like niche that is not going to make any money hardly. Yeah. And then we're like, Hey, like, what if you came over and produced with us? And then like, they like, next thing they know, they're like producing podcasts with like Meta and Cisco and stuff. And they're like, Whoa, like one of our guys was like, uh. He has one of the top K pop podcasts in the Philippines. Another guy has the top Vikings podcast in the world. Uh, it's called History of Vikings. Oh, I want to, I've, I've, I've eaten all the Vikings material on Netflix. So, uh, I'm definitely going to jump on the Vikings podcast. So this is, this guy, he runs our guest scheduling. He runs the History of Vikings podcast. I think, I want to quote, but it's like, I'm pretty sure it's above like 50, 000 dialogues a month. Like it's more than any B2B show ever gets. And he's like the top out there. He got like an academic book deal from this and he's just like super nerd into Vikings and like makes a great, like, we just found that these people that are passionate about podcasting. But, um, it's hard for them to like fully monetize it. They, they just make incredible team members and they're happy and grateful. So that's really cool. So you're kind of the hunt and stalk style a little bit. Uh, yeah, so I evolved from like hiring some people internationally and like, you know, getting the first couple is hard. Eventually I hired an international recruiter, so I hired a full time HR person in the Philippines and she just went out and recruited more for us. And that was like. Next level. Right. You're like, I, where have you been all my life? Yeah. Like, and so like that, like, I mean, that takes like a level of company to get to that size to where you need that higher and can justify it. But like, once we hit that, it was just like, I mean, like the quality of applicants is just like, wow. And how does the pay work? Like, do you always have to go through some sort of a service? That does stuff and do you save on all the payroll taxes and stuff that you would pay an American employee? Yeah, so that's the nice thing So you have to be very cautious with the place countries like Canada or even in Europe in some capacity But most of these are freelancers. Mm hmm. And so they're just responsible for their own pretty much like their There is. If you get too big, you'll probably trigger some things in some of these countries where you have to do it. But like, there are these things called like employee of record where a company will let you, like, basically they set up a local entity and then, uh, that employee is hired through that entity. And you might basically pay that entity like a vendor. So there's some stuff like there, but most of what we do, we are paying directly through, um, just kind of contractor payments and stuff like that. And that works. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So shout out to Gusto also. Yeah, we use Gusto for our payroll. And it's got a little button there, I haven't used it yet, but it says pay international contractors. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it exists, so yeah, it's there. So, um... I guess let's shift over to the Listen Network. Uh, I don't think I knew about this last time we caught up. Yeah, so, um, basically, uh, one of the biggest things we found with podcasting was, um, that companies like needed to, they needed to hit numbers. Like they need to, like if you're, Right, if you're gonna keep the best, if you got the retainer going, Yeah, and like these companies will be spending like tons of money, and, uh, you know, like, 100, 200, 000 a year on like producing a podcast and like they don't have a way to get people to listen to it other than posting it on like social media or like trying to blast it out in a few ways. Yeah. And so we built basically an ads technology that is focused specifically around, holy crap, there's a bug on your collar but I didn't want to say anything. I thought maybe you'd just walk away. It was like on my glasses. He actually went all the way over the top of your Wow. That was amazing. I'm sorry, I should have said something, but I was really enthralled if you noticed me looking at your... He was on your collar for a while. He gonna go? Came over to the wire, crawled up the wire. That's incredible. And... But he was on the leg, and I missed it earlier. Well, he was hidden from the camera, so I didn't think I should like... Yeah. I thought I might just... Go away. You know, when there's a problem, sometimes you want to address it right away, and sometimes you just cross your fingers and hope it goes away. Alright, that was incredible. Uh, alright. Yeah. We could snip that out if you want. No, that was amazing. That was the best part of the whole show. People will get a lot of inside look on my character from that. It might, it might decrease my social capital out there. Um, so Listen Network is helping these people that are producing this awesome podcast just to get found better? Yeah, basically it's an ads product that we can literally drive toward a download. And so the entire thing is optimized, like, cause the issue with it was happening was like a bunch of people were like They would just like, all they could do is just click on the LinkedIn ads and then hope that someone listened to the episode afterwards or they run any other types of ads for their podcast. They can't really tell what happened. I know I got a few more downloads last week. Was it because I spent all that money or not? Yeah. And that's like, it's like, yeah, well, I saw that, you know, I spent X amount of money on LinkedIn or Facebook ads or whatever, and people clicked on it. But then it's like, there's just like this gap after that. And so we built a technology to basically drive toward an IEB 60 second download, um, for a podcast and. Basically, we're able to convert, like, set up the ad funnels to convert, um, toward a download. So the entire thing is optimized there and, like, we can drive toward that. So it's, it's really cool. It's like a technology that lets podcasts, like, scale their listeners. Is it like a membership thing? Uh, no. When you say network, it feels kind of like that, but... Yeah, so, so, um, as we built that out, we're kind of... The way we're building the technology is basically like we've got some ad networks we're building on top of, but then what's really cool is like we're in the works and this is still early stages, but we're gonna be like doing like a deal with like Forbes and Inc and CNN and you if another book crawls in, yeah. Yeah, that works, that works, yeah. So like that's the goal is to like build like direct deals because that's what people want is also to be on these specific sites. Right. Trade publication sites, so. That's kind of, yeah, I'm building that ad's channel. So is that something that, like, the local experience could consider as a means of growing our listenership? Or are we too little, kind of? Are we going to be a big spender? Uh, I'll admit we haven't done it for a local show. That's the only thing I don't know. It probably would work, but, like, uh, yeah, I have to test that. It seems like for me, I need to stay, whatever I do promote within, I should stay geographic. Like, I have to use geographic targeting, otherwise it's kind of not... Yeah, exactly. That, that I will admit is the only thing I don't know. We can, we can probably try it. Uh, I will admit we haven't done it because I read most other people that are like, Oh, we're targeting like all of America or these states or something. So we've definitely a broader targeting, but definitely worth a shot. So we'll talk about that later. Yeah. Um, so is that for that same kind of client base largely? Uh, it's a lot of that one tends to go more toward the enterprise customers, but we're also building, um, basically technology around doing YouTube ads for podcasts and anybody else's shows too, right? Like you don't have to be the producer creator or support or whatever of anything. Yeah. That's been the cool thing is it let us come in on a lot of shows, which is interesting because it also teaches us how to produce more shows. Cause we see even more shows now that not the ones we're always producing too. So it's just, yeah. It's like a giant knowledge game. Well, if you help somebody grow their listenership. They're like, Oh, and you also produce podcasts, so it should be, you know, it should be a driver of your other business, I would assume as well. I mean, is it public that they're the same? Yeah, we, we've made them separate entities, um, cause it is just like a different product and, but it's, yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's cool, man. That's where we're having early stages with it, but we're, we're building it up and it's, it's finally taking flight. So. I don't know if you saw my note, I think I sent you an email, because when we last had lunch, uh, you gave me three really good tips about how to grow my podcast listenership. And I don't know if you remember them, but, um, I wrote them down, and then I switched notebooks, and I lost my other notebook, and I was trying to show it home, and I'm like, what the hell? I've been looking around, I can't find them. I've got a li I can remember two off the Okay, yeah. Uh, two of them. One is, uh, basically optimizing the name of the show. Okay. So, um, you know, like, literally, it's like the local think tank. It's like, get make sure it has, like, Fort Collins in there, or, like, Colorado. And, like, think through, like, what are the keywords someone might look for. For you, it's probably gonna be local. Yeah. Type of keywords, or regions, or Boulder, maybe, and put that in there. So that's probably where I would go. In the name name? Yeah, so it's like... Or within the description stuff? Within the actual name of the show. The description's cool, but the name of the show... So like, Fort Collins Fellas. Yeah. Uh, Patrick's Podcast. Yeah, yeah. Like, that's gonna... Just perfect. Makes it much more findable. Yes, exactly. Um, versus like, Loco Think Tank, like people... The Loco Experience. Yeah. What's that mean? Yeah, so, and that's the thing. You don't need to change that. You don't need to change your podcast name. But you just put a tagline on it. So we have, for example, we had a show called like Hospitality Leaders. And so, okay, it's ranking really well for hospitality. But then we just added to the name of the show. So it says like Hospitality Leaders, interviews with hotel event and food service experts. So just like the name of the show in Apple and Spotify now contains all these other keywords because like these search engines are so bad. So for me, interviews with, uh, whatever, inspiring Northern Colorado business leaders. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I probably Collins. I probably had four Collins. I don't know whether it's a more famous town than Loveland or Greeley or whatever. We're a regional organization, but you can even put those in because someone might be like, is someone out of podcasts in Loveland? Yeah, and they might look that up, you know, like that's kind of you're thinking like for you It's like what is the region that you're really covering because it's like the way to put your mind is like What would someone search in a podcast app? Yeah, that like me there in Loveland might actually have a bunch of, cause there's a lot of Lovelands out, you know, Oh, probably. Right. So yeah, way more than Fort Collins is. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. So yeah, just some, but those are the things to think about. I was like, what would someone there? Um, and the other thing was YouTube ads. I think it's a huge channel that can definitely grow. It can do beginning. I think you can get very hinting toward that with your, um, with your ad company there. Yeah. Yeah. So we're doing a lot of YouTube ads management and everything there as well, but it's, yeah. It's one that I think is, um, very, it's, it's within reach for, I think, someone who's got a small business and is trying to really like grow that or, or like has a smaller podcast and is trying to grow. Like you don't have to be at enterprise level because like enterprise is just like, you have to go high with the spin, but like YouTube, it's like very possible to be like, I'm going to put. 20 or 50 behind each of these episodes and like, drive some notable traffic to that. Which is, uh, I think where you can like, move a needle and actually get probably seen more locally. Now, we don't, we do little video clips, uh, and sometimes we put them on YouTube, usually not, or whatever. But, like, the stuff you're producing, are they all audio video, and is YouTube a major platform for uptake of that, or Spotify with the videos, or, like, I, I don't want to watch a podcast with video, because I'm walking around doing stuff, or washing the dishes, or cooking dinner, um, but maybe that's just me, and I'm very auditory besides. So I think most, like, everyone's kind of just doing video because you can, and I think, and like, this is the thing, is that YouTube, it works. Like, there's, there's a different audience that engages on YouTube. I would say from like most of our, our B2B podcasts that we're doing with, I would say typically like their downloads, their, their YouTube will somewhere have around like 30 percent of what their show total show downloads are. We have some where like the YouTube has, is like blown up or like they just have a really good YouTube channel and they've just done really well there. We have some where YouTube is more than podcast as a channel. Um, so I definitely think it's just like a channel worth paying attention to. It's like beyond both. Thank you. Um, I've been picking up YouTube shorts lately, actually, and like the dad jokes are my favorite. Yeah. I've been getting those ones. My favorite one recently that I've shared, and I'll probably keep this one for a long time, is, uh, I started dating my ex wife, but she broke it off. She realized I was only in it for my money. Oh. Oh, God. That's gross. I've got a, I've got, so we do really bad, uh, dad jokes as well. Um, so one I recently came up with is, uh, what is, uh, Steve Irwin, the Crocodile Hunter, what's his favorite brand of sparkling water? Lacroike. So bad. Yeah, it's not good. So, where did we jump off? We were talking about YouTube ads. Yeah. So, I'll have to have a mystery on that third one unless I can find that notebook filler that I had. Yeah, I don't know. But we should actually, like, at least... Put it on the shorts because like I liked a YouTube short this morning that had like 93 likes Yeah, right like for that person that was a big deal to go from 93 to 94 Yeah And you know it was only because it happened to pop up my little scroll of my feed and I imagine tick tocks kind of Similar or whatever, but it would be like if we could get really interesting like maybe that part with the bug YouTube short Yep, that's what's gonna go viral. Right. Podcaster has bug on his face in an interview. It was on your glasses. You'd have felt it sooner if it was on your face. That's true. Um, should we... Talk more about the current state of podcast industry, maybe before we jump in the time machine or what, uh, where would you like to take this? I'm the host. I know, but well, we're going to go back and talk about how you start a company like this and stuff like that. But, but I wonder how much more of current day operations and who should be, you know, reaching out for a service like yours, things like that. It's not a commercial kind of a. of a podcast. I just feel like the entrepreneurial stuff is more valuable to people. Like I don't know if I should be all about this too much, but I feel like, I don't know, sharing the entrepreneurial journey. Yeah. That's what we do. Yeah. Like I feel like that's the. All right. That's the valve house. Well let's jump in the time machine then. All right. Time machine. Back to second grade. All right. Where are we at in second grade? Uh, I grew up in Missouri. Okay. Um, I don't remember my second grade teacher. Urban? Missouri? We're, we're in Missouri. It's a big state. Uh, in, uh, it was called Fenton. So like the suburbs of Missouri. So just the sprawling, sprawling suburbs of uh, St. Louis. Of St. Louis. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, I don't remember my second grade teacher. Third grade teacher was Miss Bird. Okay. Uh, and so yeah, that's where I was, yeah. Like B Y R D or B I R D? I don't know if I could read that well yet. In third grade? I don't remember. You're still learning. So, what was your, uh, like family dynamic? You have working parents, business owners, you have brothers, sisters, oldest, youngest. Um, so my dad was a mechanic. Um, my mom was a nurse. And, um, yeah, my sister, I had an older sister who was four years older who went and worked at the church. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. Power dynamics. Right. Well, you were four years younger. It was a long time before you were bigger. Although you're probably quite a bit bigger now. Uh, were you a, a young big kid? Uh, so I weighed actually, actually 305 pounds. I was... What? Actually, like heavily obese when I was in high school. Really? Yes. And so, uh, yeah, I've lost, uh, like lost over a hundred and one point down to a hundred and like 30 pounds. Lost my heaviest weight. And were you big right away? Like even in second grade, fourth grade, sixth grade, you were a chubby kid. Yeah. Just kind of grew up in a household that had a lot of, uh, excess unhealthy food. Sure. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Oh, so didn't have as many girlfriends as some kids do when you're in high school. Probably not. Definitely not. How was your, like, mental health and social life and things like that? Was that challenging too? Yeah, it was rough. There's definitely, uh, you know, I, uh, I go to counseling. I unpack trauma. Like, there was trauma. You know, trauma comes out of that stuff. It's wild, man. Like, when you're, uh, You're a 300 pound teenager, like that, uh, that messes you up in some ways. I'm sure. So. Yeah. No, and you're seemingly fairly well adjusted now, so. Took a long path to get there, and like the battle is still never over. Fair enough. Do you have like fear, even now, like you could like fall back off the wagon and be 300 pounds again if you don't watch your P's and Q's? I don't know that, but it's more or less just like, uh, Uh, I don't know. There's just like, there's just so many layers to it. It's like, uh, I found this great podcast, which anyone out there that is struggling with like weight or like unhealthy eating patterns, like all the psychology of eating. It's actually a guy in Boulder, which I was surprised a guy, but like. Super amazing, just like a, like a psychologist who just went into people's relationship with foods as a specialty for his whole career. Yeah. And, uh, really good stuff. Right, it resonated with you. Yeah, it resonated, like I got emotional, like it was good stuff. Wow. I was like opposite land. I was, uh, 5'1 and about 110 pounds at the end of my 10th grade year. Okay. Uh, and almost the same size at the beginning of my 7th grade year. Okay. So, I was like Kurt the Squirt of this small school and, you know, didn't... Really command any respect or attention from the pretty girls, you know for this opposite reason, like I said So I digress and we all we all end up compensating for that later. Were you a good student? No, studious intentional and about your studies or no, I wasn't like honors classes, but I was always like Not good at them. I was smart enough to be in the honors, but definitely not at the top of the class, definitely near the bottom. Uh, and so, yeah, I barely graduated college and, uh, yeah. Well, and probably with a little more self confidence and whatever, you probably were smart enough. Just weren't self actualizing enough yet. I don't like structure. So where I was I was the editor of my high school newspaper Okay, this is part of journalism all this podcasting kind of connects back to that We started an internet radio station back then this was like before podcasting was right thing and like yeah that like I excelled because it's like Create something in this space versus like, do these stupid tests, like journalism was like, create a newspaper for the school, right? That's awesome. Like you're going to lead a team and create this 16 page spread in like a month. Like that was awesome. Like I learned a lot through that. So yeah, I got a lot from my like high school journalism professor or stuff like that. That was pretty, very pivotal. So any other big moments in the high school journey and what did that? Next chapter to college, I assume college looked like for you? Uh, yeah, I went off to, uh, I also had a recording, so out of the internet radio station, I started a recording studio in my basement. Oh, okay. Um, where I was recording local bands. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure your parents must have loved that. Yeah, Screamo bands. My favorite was these kids that were screaming like, Control Alt Delete Me Lord. Oh, gosh. Like, back in like the Christian Screamo phase. Uh, yeah, it was, uh, it was good times. And so, uh, yeah, I did that. And then actually I went to college for audio engineering. Uh, I was going to be, you know, record producer and all that stuff. Like many kids who get pulled into these audio programs that are way overpriced to sell you on being in the music business. And it's just a bunch of music business people that couldn't make a living in the music business. Those that can do now trying to teach the music business. So there's a. A racket of an industry, uh, around it. So this isn't like a, uh, college, it's more like a technical kind of program? No, I went to a very, it was Belmont University in Nashville. Okay. Um, it was stupidly expensive, like, it was, uh, God, student loans, uh, like, it was like, it, I, like, it is baffling to me how much money they charged to teach kids very And that was early, they probably charge a lot more now. Yeah, and like, yeah, yeah. So, like, uh, I went to Belmont, I'm grateful ultimately I got to go there. I have a like, there's just, I have so many opinions around the college and like the debt thing because it's like, my wife and I both went there. She can't believe it, so. It was 100, 000 each that we paid to go through here. So we graduate with 200, 000 of combined debt and a degree in audio engineering. It's like, that doesn't add up. Did she also have a degree in audio engineering? No, she has a degree in sociology. Oh yeah, way pay, big pay in sociology. So it's just like, you're just like setting, like, and it's just like, and like everybody just like come out and it's like 1, 000 a person you're paying and like, so, college, student loans. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh, Alma, my, uh, podcast producer here, that helped us get set up, but she, uh, she was a student at Uh, whatchacallit, Front Range Community College when she first started and then they went remote and COVID nation and stuff and she's like, nah, you know, I'm not going to do that. And then when they went back to in person, she's like, I'm pretty sure I learned twice as much per hour that I'm here. Trying to figure out loco think tank with you than I do in any class. I've had at Front Range so far Yeah, and that's an affordable school. Yeah, you know comparably But it's just hard to teach real life skills that don't get stale. Mm hmm, you know, especially in any kind of a Rapidly evolving industries like audio and production and stuff like that Like you're talking about like what I look at is like if I had taken that same hundred thousand dollars And I applied that to a bunch of intentional learning programs, like spaced out over a period of time, such trying to cram it into this period where you just want to get drunk because you're like 18, like, like, it's just like, like, like, like. Like how much like you could do. It's like, Oh, you could go take a certification on this. You could go take a leadership course over here. You could go to a personal development conference, like Or you could buy 100, 000 worth of booze. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah. Really set your life on track. A lot of things, but I just like, I just like, cause I had a friend who, um, one of the guys who was actually was an animator for my first company. And he dropped out of college after his freshman year. And this kid just went super deep on just being like one of the best 3D animators in the world. And like, dude, he was making like six grand a week as an animator on projects. And he's like 19. Yeah, and he's a 19 year old college dropout. And like, yeah, okay, it was probably by the time he was 23, he was making six grand a week. But by the time he was 19, he was still making like a grand a week doing 3D animation. And like taking courses on Linda and investing in all these like things like that. And it's just like... The ROI is there. And like, he's happy. Like he's an artist, like getting to do like free design. Well, and especially for creatives and entrepreneurial type people, like college probably disrupts more entrepreneurial journeys than it, than it advances. Do you think? I don't know. Yeah. Like I wonder about it because they feel like you got to pay back those student loans right away, which means you just got to go take that accounting job or that banker job or whatever. So I had, there was an entrepreneurship. program that I ended up doing a minor in, but I was, you know, it was sophomore year that I was like, Oh. I, this audio engineering degree is a racket. I don't like want to do this. And, uh, uh, or I don't want the career in this field. And, uh, but then it's like, you're too far and it's like, Oh, well, if you're going to change, you're going to burn all that money. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta be here for a fifth year and have another 25, 000 additional on time. It's like, so I changed a minor to entrepreneurship and that program was cool. I think like entrepreneurship programs are like very interesting because it was. The whole program was experiential. So you could do it and just have a theoretical business you made up for all your projects or every project you could just apply to your business. So I had my first business, which was a video production agency at that time. Okay. And I just applied. All of my assignments was just, well, here's what I'm doing for rabbit hole. Like, it was just like, it was like, cool, I'm going to do a marketing plan this week. And then I'm going to, uh, do my financial forecasting and my analysis. I'm going to learn how to build a PNL. And then it's like, then I would actually do that. And I was like, that was cool. So like that opened a bank account and I got some customers and deposited their checks. Yeah. Yeah. And like some kids, like, I think they, they never actually like, they were too scared to actually like try to start something. But I think everybody, I would say over half had something that they were trying and like, I feel like those people just like, we all got a ton out of it. So that was cool. I just like, but it was just like, it was like one fifth of the time I spent in college. Just like, so like, where's the other 80 percent of classes you have to take and like these things that you're like, why am I in this class? That is stupid. Right. Well, and all knowledge of the world is just about free now. If you know where to look for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, um, Did you, you finished up though, you went all the way through? Yeah, begrudgingly. My parents didn't want me to drop out, and I, I... Did you fall in love with your wife during this time as well? Uh, post college, but we did meet through college in the same group of friends. Okay. So that was a good ROI. And were, were you, were you still a heavy guy for this? Season or did you start? By the time I got to college, that's where, uh, I finally lost weight and actually had innate level of like, girls having like interest in me or whatnot. Like candidly, like, yeah, it was, uh, it was probably by sophomore year I was down to like, uh, about 190 pounds. And did, because you worked hard on it or did, was part you getting tall and stretching out? Kind of, and I mean, it wasn't even getting tall, like I've always been tall. Okay. It was just like. Getting part of it was just like, honestly, getting out of my, my parents house and the unhealthy like food environment there and like going off to college. And I remember like, for me, like eating sandwiches instead of pizza, that was like such an upgrade. Whenever I went to like the, the cafe, like the Dell, like, or like the meal service or whatever, I was like, I'm going to get the sandwich each time. And like, that was like. You were Jared before Jared. Yeah, like, that's like, that was enough to like, He was probably before you. Yeah, sure, Jared was, yeah, yeah. So he was my, he was my, my inspiration. I don't know. Well, that's cool, though. I mean, because, like, getting down to 190 pounds as a man of your size, that's pretty much your right weight, no? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, like, and it's always, you know, always could be. You know, you can always be more optimal in your body, but I'm not, I'm at my ideal weight, but if a lot of this was up here on my chest, arms, and my calves. Yeah, with the ideal weight, you're like, that should be a little more muscle. I will still call it ideal. I'm at my ideal weight. Yeah, I should be a lot more muscly at that weight, yeah. Uh, but I digress. And so then what's next for, for you after that graduation, were you, did you, did your business survive the video production company? Yeah, we did. So we were first video production company. We were like in the event industry and I was in Nashville. Okay. So like music industry. So we got to do design a bunch of touring artists and to do like corporate events. So like we got designed like CeeLo Green's tour and then he went on like Saturday Night Live and we would make like the graphics that would play behind him on stage. Oh wow. So, um, yeah, we did a bunch of that stuff, which was, it was really cool. It was a good business. Um, We made a lot of revenue. We were clueless on how to run a business, so we didn't make a whole lot of profit, but like yeah. Made a living out of college with our own business, which was, uh, and you say, uh, you have a partner in that one, or? Uh, I had a partner in that one. Yeah. Um, and, uh, yeah, we did that. We did a lot of really cool stuff. Did a lot of big corporate events and stuff, and a lot of tours. And, uh, then at some point I, um. I was naive and hotheaded and young and exited that business in probably not the, definitely not the healthiest of fashions. I'll have to grab some more. Bourbon's always good. Indeed. Uh, Not always. Some bourbon's pretty crappy. Yeah. So exited that in poor fashion and, uh, Like had a partner divorce. Did you get any money out of it at the time? Or you just were like, No, I kind of just like, I'm out of here. We, we had, again, We weren't that great at running the business. We had some like debt on the business. So I kind of got out of the debt and I was just like, I'm out of here. Retrospective probably should have gotten some money out of it, but like, I was so naive and stupid, like, I just had no idea what I was doing. Yeah, well, most of us don't when we get started, you know. Yeah, it's like, uh, to be like a 22, 23 year old kid who's like, got a business that was doing, uh, we never hit a million in revenue, but we were not far shy of it, and like, but like, Was pretty still clueless. You could have been both six figure earners. If you'd run the business a little better. Like if I were to run that business today and knew what the, like we wasted so much money on just being like complete idiots and young and not like we were buying like beer, it was just like. Like we're going to hire this custom illustrator instead of using like a stock website or something. It's like, you know, it's just like, there's some, and like when you, like the things we focused on that people didn't actually care about, but that was like super important to us. And then like, just learned so many lessons on that where it was like, that was a fun learning experience and I'm grateful for it. And where had you connected with your now wife? By that departure then? Uh, yeah, she was there, kind of, probably like the last year or so of that. Okay. And then, and then what? Then I basically, uh, got this weird, I got, I uh, had this horrible failure of trying to start a telehealth company. Okay. Um, so going from music industry to telehealth was like some weird thing. I started wearing suits and I had like tattoos up my arms and I'm like, what the fuck am I doing? Tell me about telehealth, like why? Uh, so I met, so through a business plan competition I did, I met this guy that had like sold his technology to what became Redbox. Okay. So this dude was like super wealthy and he had this telehealth idea and he wanted some young kid to run it. Right. And I was just like. Sure, and it was like video technology. I'll do it. Oh, right. That was like my parallel. I had no idea what I was doing. Like, push button one if you want to see the video about... Yeah, and like, but it wasn't even technology. It was just, it was just like an idea in his head. Right. And it all out. Right. And so like, uh, I don't know. I worked on that. I went to like an incubator program and like networked around the healthcare scene. And then like, it was like eight months into that project. I'm like, what the hell am I doing? This is just not gonna work. I'm going to meetings with suits. This disgusts me. Like, this is everything I didn't want to this, I don't want to be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was just like, I just had to go like, I don't know if I was trying to impress people and be cool and be like, He's off now doing the next big thing. Cause like, I don't know, I was naive and had an ego. And, uh... That combination is tough sometimes. Naive, but also big ego. Yeah, yeah. I've been there. It's still there. Whenever I see young business kids, like, uh, who like have success in like the early twenties, like at first I'm like, Oh, this is awesome. And there's like, there's like, I feel like there's a switch from being like, really like wanting to learn from everybody. To then like, you're going to go through the hothead idiot period. And I, I pray that you don't go through the hothead idiot period, but God, I saw so many of us that cause like, I went to like these business plan competitions. So it was all of us, like 20 year olds that are like, hell yeah, man, we're rocking. And then like, we all just like burned and like, at some point, like, and I just, I just see that cycle and over and over again. So if you're a young kid, Don't burn out in flames. Like, I don't know how to tell you anything else is honestly, you're probably going to as part of the journey. You have to learn from it. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty funny. A lot of people, like a lot of business leaders, you got to go like that three to five years of real suffering and strife before you get there, but then there's others that they open their thing and it's just like. And I've met a couple people in the last two months where that's what they did. They opened their business and they started and it popped and it grew into a pretty big business. And then in the last year or two or something, they've had their first real stumble where they, you know, maybe Had negative cashflow for a season or, you know, went down, went backwards in 2022 from 2021 or something, cause they invested all this extra for growth in the next year and thinking their poop don't stink. Almost every business leader gets a lesson in humility. Eventually. Yes. It's usually the first three, four or five years or that, but sometimes it comes around later. Yeah. And then like one of the things I think that, um, I reflected and I, uh, cause I think like, as I used to listen to like a lot of these podcasts of like entrepreneurial stories and it's very helpful, um, and I, and like that early journey, but I think I'd always compare myself to the people on the podcast. And one of the things I've realized is like, um, I think where you come from makes a large difference in this. And, and I think, I don't think a lot of people give credit to this, but like some of them, my friends from college who didn't crash and burn that were like really young and like did really well in their entrepreneurial journeys, just kicked it off. It's like. I mean, they had parents that were entrepreneurs and their dad was like a lawyer and like someone they could go to for counsel and stuff, or they had like family members. And like, I came from a blue collar family. And so it's like, you know, and then I was like, you can get so far off hustling, but like when you have no support system around you from like the family level and you have to build it from scratch, I think there's just some level of like, uh, you got to cut yourself slack. Cause I used to just like. It was just like, I don't know. I used to compare myself to a lot of people. And then you realize like everybody's got their own journey and everybody has like some different level that they came from. And it's just, I don't know that to me, that helped me like be more at peace with like, I had to screw up. I had to screw up my early twenties a lot to get to where I am here. And some people, they just had more support systems and they got to shortcut that journey some. Yeah. No, there's, there's a lot of truth to that. Did you, do you have mentors or other people? Definitely. Or just a bunch of other 20 year olds that didn't know shit? I definitely had mentors. And I think as soon as they had challenges, as soon as you lose those mentors, like, you know, whether it had those for the university or some people, but like another challenging thing is like mentors, uh, Especially in those like music industry days. It just all gets intertwined with your customers. Yeah, they become your customers too. And then like, then the relationship falls apart and then like, you don't know it. And like, this is a consistent thing of like, if you get too close to your mentors, you end up doing business with them, which can be very lucrative, but you then lose the mentor and you need a mentor to guide you on that relationship with this key person. And, uh, well, and sometimes you get a little too close to your mentor and you're like. Oh, you've got some really irritating habits, too, that are self destructive and, you know, the shine comes off the rose a little bit or whatever. Yep, exactly, yeah, so. So what was after the telehealth? Um, then I basically went into just a long path in digital marketing and traveling the world. So I went digital nomad, like back in, like, this was, I think, 2014 or 2015. Okay. Like. Just did, went, like, read the four hour workbook. And just you? Uh, me and my wife, we both went. Okay, so you fell in love along this, like, while you're struggling at your worst, Yeah, like, first year of relationship. Like, I'm just like, hey. Um, we're going to go live in Europe. You gotta come with me. Like, we're going to go live in Mexico. Uh, that's where we started. You want to come with me? And then like, we kicked off this like year and a half long lap around the world. And then, uh, we did some basically for like 10 years, we nomad ed almost. And you were doing just. Marketing freelance stuff for people. Everything, yeah, like I started off like web design was like I basically built a web design agency was where it kind of kicked off. That evolved some point into like copywriting, I did for periods of that. And then I did lead gen. And then I, like, it just, that eventually led to podcasting. But like there's... And there was like a bajillion failed things amidst that. But basically I was like a freelance marketer and then would spin up some companies. I had one company like lead cookie that did LinkedIn outbound. Like we were really early in that rush before everybody was spamming LinkedIn. Yeah. Uh, back when like you were spamming before anybody. Yeah. We spammed them before everybody else spammed them. And so we built a decent business there, but. It was just like, it was a long journey of just figuring that out. And did somebody buy any of these things from you that you spun up or? Yeah. Yeah. Like they were all like, they were all solid businesses. Like as a consultant, I was probably doing like a, I don't know, like. 200, 250, 000. But then I would like hire out a bunch of stuff. So it wasn't that really that profitable, you know, but like, and then lead cookie that grew into being probably, I think at its peak was around like 850, 000 business. Okay. But then like link everyone's cold emailing and then like, it just got harder and it was like, okay, it's like that business still exists. I sold that to two of the guys that were involved with it, but like, it's just harder and it was hard to ever scale it. And so like kind of whenever. I basically started a lot of things. I was like, that's not going to scale that, uh, that's not going to scale. And like, and it was just like finding something where I can, like, I can actually build a real business on it. So, and I guess that was content allies. Yeah. And when did that start? Uh, we really, we started in like 2018, but we went through like trying to be like a, like a social media LinkedIn content service for a while. We tried to do like a thought leadership article writing stuff. Um, really glad I didn't go down that niche because I was disrupted by chat. GBT hard for sure. Uh, and then eventually landed on podcasting. So we did a bunch of different things and then like podcasting is what stuck. So interesting. And ultimately not that long ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, it's crazy, like to be where we are with this business and like have it like, like the customers we have, cause it's like. We really kicked that off in like 2020. So it's like, we're three years in. Yeah. And it just, it was just like a fricking rocket ship whenever we got it going. It was just like, Oh my, like I've never been in a business where it was like, the challenge is not marketing and customers. The challenge was trying to keep up with growth. Like it was, uh, it was a very. different. We didn't market hardly. We We did marketing when the, and just like the marketing we did worked really well. Yeah. And so, um, we just now. Now you're just trying to hire fast enough to get all those deliverables done. And like we, we, we have a period we called the dark ages. Uh, because like we Churned like 40, 000 a month, the recurring revenue. At one point, um, this was like almost two years ago now, but we churned to that much. And it was all because quality failure. Like we just, like, we were sucking, like we were sucking and, uh, it was just like, we, we were growing way too fast. And again, we've now gotten to a point where I'm just like, I can be like, yeah, we have an amazing team, but like, there's that period where you go beyond, like when you hit that point where you as the founder cannot stay on top of it all. And then just like things start to crumble and you just have to fix those things one by one. But like. Yeah, it was a brutal, brutal time. Talk about, uh, like the first, like, when you talk about brands like Facebook and Gusto and, you know, Siemens and stuff like that, like, was it that way right from the start? Was it those kind of big companies? Or has that shifted over time? No, we, we basically, um, uh, we got a lead from Facebook. And, um, you know, they came to us and they were like, basically, the, the guy was like, You know, we, we, we like, we just like did everything we could to try to win this account. You know, at the end of it, the guy's like, you know, you, you guys are smaller, you have less experience, but my boss says that it's always best to take advantage on the small agency and be like the biggest client of the small agency and not go with the incumbent bigger players. Honest with you. Yeah. And he's like, so I was like, we're gonna give you guys a shot. And like. I freaking hustled and I owned like every part of that account and like drove that. And it took honestly probably a year and a half before I started like really putting someone else to lead the account. But like, it's like, that was, you know, just like you just show up and they were like, yeah, our return on investment is like two times or three times what it was with our previous providers. So you say, jump, I say how high, like your Facebook and uh, and so, yeah, like I just really, um, It has been a really cool experience. And like, as soon as you have that credibility, like that helps you, like, it really is. It's like, once you get one, then everything else becomes easier. And, um, and then now it's like, we just have like this whole just wall of logos and it's just like, this is awesome. And what, what, what, what I love at the site, it's like, that was like, you know, I was like 10 years of working in the field to get, to get to logos like this. But it's like, once you get there, it's like, there's this sense of like, we're like, we're never going anywhere. It's like, at any given point, that social proof is worth so much that like. Um, and that's like a cool thing to do and like, and keeping those customers happy, growing them and just like taking care of them. It's just like, it's a very cool phase of business. It's a lot more manageable to be in. Are you bored yet? Um, because you've started in spun and different things. I just worry a little bit that you might be like, uh, what's the new exciting thing I'm doing? And maybe that's, yeah, that's product is the new exciting. And then also like, so one of the things I've realized is like, as a small business, like you need a niche, you need to like, so we had to be like B2B podcasting, like that is us. That's all we do. What I found is that businesses, as you hit like that, probably like one to probably on the 3 million mark, you will cap. If you don't expand your service lines, it's not say you can't, but especially in like agency world, like I said, my whole career, mostly in agencies, it's like you will cap if you don't start to figure out how to sell more. And so we've started to broaden into really coming. Like we, we grew a lot through SEO. We grew our own business. Um, And so we've now offering SEO services to some of our customers. We're offering like more YouTube video production. We're often like lead magnet creation services. We're really offering just like kind of adjacent revenue to your existing client base. Yeah. Cause it's like, we have such a good relationship and it's like, we understand their businesses deeply. So it's like. Hey, we're doing this for ourselves. Like, why don't we do this for you? So like basically kind of, uh, expanding and growing that it's like you have to niche to start, but to scale, I think you do have to go wider and go deeper with each customer. So that's kind of the trajectory that I'm taking on it now is really like a content agency. That really drives and promotes everything through ads. Um, like that's in really with the goal of helping, you know, B2B companies like hit their KPIs and really grow. So my, uh, local think tank started for the first five years. We were a one trick pony. We serve that kind of 5 to 20, 25 employee demographic, and it was actually my, my. bookkeeper slash tax preparer. I was like, well, I, I barely ever see any businesses with one product or service, like grow to a significant size. And that really prompted me to start thinking, okay, well, and so we started serving the next level higher and the next level smaller and now key employees groups, and now some of our longtime clients are like, you know. I've got the support I need and love. And what can you do for my mid level managers and my key managers to, to build on their skill set? And so we're like, I don't know, what can we do? Let's, let's try to do something. Uh, and so we just had one of those kinds of events just last week, actually, because it's adjacent revenue from existing customers that already know, like, and trust us. Yeah, yeah. And I, uh, I don't know if we've discussed about this, but like, I have many times considered going down the mastermind business model. And I think there's like such an opportunity to be like, Hey, I'm gonna have my COO mastermind. I'm gonna have my CFO mastermind. I'm gonna have like my director of operations or I guess. Yeah, there probably is room there. Yeah. Like, and like that, cause that's like, you know, what I look for as like a CEO, like I'm looking for like my head of production. Like I have my one on one with her today and she's like, I'm trying to just figure out how to keep growing in my leadership. And I'm like, well, like. There should be a head of production. Yeah, exactly. It's like find a bunch of people. But like that, like, I think that's like that idea of just like. Because I think that there's an interesting thing you can bring because you have all these entrepreneurs in your group, right? And it's be like, Hey, like, who do you want to level up in your organization? Like, could I put together a small group? If I put together a small group, would you pay to put them in a group and a facilitator? And it's like, go to him and be like, Hey, what about your CEO? What about your CFO? What about your director of marketing? Like, we'll just create these masterminds. And then we're just gonna put together a bunch of people. And like, you have a new product that you're selling to your existing customers and you don't have to get somebody, right? Well, and one thing we've, we do have a key employees group. And, and we like to have it so there's like a, a CFO and a chief sales officer and operations people so that they can get more, a more holistic view instead of a more specific view. Cause we feel like they know their jobs usually, but understanding the whole of a business operation and other people's specifics. So I don't know, maybe, uh, I there's room there for somebody to do what you do too. Yeah. All that. I've always thought the thing with that, it's interesting with that. And I'll share it cause it's my dreams. But like, I feel like outbound works really well. Uh, or like, cause I think like outbound where it's like, if you think about it, like, so I imagine a lot of your groups, like you guys like network and you meet the people and you put them together. Yeah. And I think what the interesting thing is like, if you go to like a COO mastermind and you can reach out to just like all the CEOs and all the CEOs locally and be like, Hey, like, Uh, here's a manufacturing company that I've never met and like, you're like, it's just such a niche relevant offer that it's like, it's not like a spam cold emails. Like, I feel like you could reach out to people cold and they would engage with that. Yeah. Yeah. There's actually some potential and that could turn those, the leaders of those companies into members as well. Um, so tell me about like, you've got this, you know, group of 60, mostly digital. of different sorts and editors and things like that. But tell me about like the back office or the home office. Do you have like an op, you've got a production manager, operations manager. Yeah. Yeah. What's your, what's your org chart look like? And are, is it pretty flat? Um, yeah, so it was basically, I've got a COO who is kind of overseeing and leading a lot of the operations of everything. And so he's kind of really building the processes and he does one on ones with most of the department heads. Okay. I still connect with them. We've got a head of production who is basically everything production related. Okay. Uh, she runs that and then has a whole team of like production managers under her. Uh, production managers, sometimes we call them associate producers. We keep going back and forth on what we're calling them. Right, right. Uh, and then we have essentially, uh, a head of strategy. Who is kind of like, um, a strategist, analyst. And he's got an analyst under him. So like, all of our strategy audits we do. Like we have like one of our. Yeah, like put together all the metrics, create this whole PowerPoint deck. And then like we, him and I go through and we look at it and we're like, Hey, what are we going to recommend this client? It's like, where to go? Yeah. Um, I kind of act as the account manager still at this point. Really? Yeah. So I'm kind of doing a lot of the account management. Um, and I've got a head of sales, which is, um, and then basically he has like a sales admin behind him that's supporting and just kind of like running everything. That's the new business creation. But once he gets them, then you keep them kind of. Yep, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah. And then like, you know, we've got an HR function and stuff as well, which is pretty basic. And then I've outsourced finance and like, that's kind of the overarching structure. There's a lot within that, that production department has a lot of people, but like, it's, you know, producers essentially, and then a head of production, like producers are the ones that have a face with each of the customers and everything like that. Right, right. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Any, what would your next, uh, Job that you would get rid of be off of your existing set of responsibilities. Um, I'm currently trying to hire a really strong executive assistant. So I just want like, I want a right hand. Yeah. Someone who can basically just follow me around. Um, and just like. I'm looking for someone who's just like, has like super high follow through. I've just like done enough personal profile and like under deep understanding of myself towards like, I need someone who can, who's like one of those people that just like, if I mentioned something in a conversation and like, they're just going to do it. Right. And like, that's, that's what I'm looking for is like that kind of person that I can just ramble stuff to and like, they turn it into reality. Right. And then in 20 minutes a day, they give you a kind of a summary of your email flow and different things like that. Yeah. I've got an executive assistant in there now. And it's just like, he's been good, but not. A plus and I'm moving toward an A plus higher there to just like, cause I'm just like, I know. If I get the right person there, like that is going to like maximize my productivity. No, it makes sense to me. I've, uh, I had an employee, a while, our coworker a while, long time ago in banking was like, I don't know how you do it, Kurt, but like, I have to tell people, I forgot about your loan file for a while. And you're like. Oh, I got focused on somebody else's file, and somehow they like you more after you say that, even though we're giving them the same message. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Uh, anyway, I digress. But it's, it's, it's challenging, right? Like, especially for high vision, high focus people, if you get strayed, then you're like strayed. Yeah. And, uh... Yeah. I just don't remember it. If I, like when somebody says, Hey, call me tomorrow morning at nine. I'm like, Oh, why didn't you call me? Either that or I have to put it on my calendar. It's like, I must have a calendar. Exactly. It doesn't exist if it's not on my calendar. Yeah, exactly. And it's just like, I live. And a world of vision and, uh, and I just look my, I build, you know, it's like, I think as an entrepreneur with like a team, you learn to build people around you. It's a lot of it is like how key people compliment you. And it's like my head of strategy, like his follow through is just stupid. Right. Like, it's just like some, like sometimes I just have to be like, Whoa, no, no, no, no. That was an idea. Like, don't do that. I'm just like, I was like, yeah, man. I was like, maybe someday we're going to get into doing this, this, and this. And next thing I know, he's like trying to like, start no, no, no. And we should send a box of mushroom chocolates to all our clients. No, no, no. That was a joke. Yeah, but he's amazing. And he like compliments me really well in the follow through. But it's like that, that's the stuff. It's like that easy button personality. Yeah. You got to know where you're strong and therefore, so you can find people that fill in your weaknesses. And I'm like, ideation, activation, horrible follow through. Like I come up with ideas when I come up with an idea, like I have to do it right away. Like it pains me if I have an idea and like, I have to wait until like, people know that you're just going to sometimes wander off. Yeah. One of my advisors, like probably best advice is I should follow this more. It's like, if you have a new idea, you should wait 30 days to implement it. Ooh. I struggle. And sometimes it was the right move and sometimes I make bad ideas and I'm like, yeah, that was a, I probably shouldn't have sent that. That's what I tell my team. I'm like, you know, I'm going to have a lot of ideas and 80 percent of them should be killed right away. Like they don't even need to see the light of day, but you know, it helped me. Chase the ones that I should. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I appreciate that. Are all of your people like, it sounds like this person maybe would be actually an in person, no, this would still be remote. It's still remote. Yeah, totally. How do they follow you around and look over your shoulder? I literally just among calls. Like I never. the current, like, I don't get dressed up. This is, I am, I am a sweat pants, like, and like, and sometimes I put a button up, but like, I just chill in my home office all the time. I got a treadmill desk now. I fricking love it. I like, uh, and like, uh, I just work from home and it drives my wife nuts. So, and so your whole team is dispersed. You never do, what do you do in regards to like. team meetings or things like that. We just have a weekly zoom meeting, which we have fun. Like we have fun on it too. Cause like a weekly zoom meeting, it's like a few, we do like, so we do like, we do we, for a long time, we did good news for the first five minutes. We switched it now to a gratitude circle where everyone says someone they're grateful for. So you do something like that. Then we go through like some of the KPIs and like just updates on the key accounts and like just checking the metrics to see that. Like the key. This is everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's there. Key things are on track. Like we go through the metrics in like 10 minutes and then we just do like a joke Battle of the Week where two people are up every week and they have a joke battle. Uh, and so, uh, That's awesome. Yeah. And so, uh, I was raining champ for three weeks in a row'cause I came with original jokes and then eventually I resigned with original jokes. Yeah. I like to come up with original jokes. Wow. You seem like you could be a standup comic at some point. I mean, I have note on here of some more, some more original jokes. If we want to go there, we could go there. Let me just find the note. All I did was write down the punchline, so sometimes I have to remember the jokes. That's pretty good. I've, like, I'm pretty funny. Like, I make people laugh more than just about anybody I know. And, but it's usually spontaneous, mildly inappropriate. I say things that other people only think or don't even quite get there. So. I, these are all have to be PG related, we have to give them a display. No, we're, we put an explicit lyrics thing, fuck that. Nah, yeah, well, I'm just saying everything I have, what I come up with is pretty PG. That's your rules for yourself. Yeah, cause I'm like, we, we can't go. No PG 13 even? Sometimes, but sometimes PG 13 can also get really inappropriate. Yeah, you're right. So, uh, we typically tell people PG, and we're okay if they can use their line of judgment. But there's some PG 13 that they probably shouldn't do. Alright, that's true. Uh, in a company setting. So, alright, let me see what here. So with that disclaimer. Um, um, uh, what is a cannibal's favorite type of sandwich? I don't know. An open faced sandwich. Oh, God. Alright, uh, so this is a very Colorado one. I went into the mountains recently and, uh, I went to this restaurant and it was staffed by all these mountain animals, so there were squirrels and bears and moose and everything like this that were, uh, preparing the food for everybody. And, uh, I ordered a sandwich, and, uh, they brought out my sandwich, and then a moose started pooping on my sandwich. And I was like, moose, why are you pooping on my sandwich? And he said, well, it's because you ordered moostered on your sandwich. Alright, I'll stop there. That's solid, though. I like that, uh, intentional culture and humor. Yeah, we have fun with it. It's always, it's always a good laugh in time. It's like we spend like 10 minutes on business and then 15 minutes laughing like each week And it's just like it's a fun way to bring people together and everyone looks forward to it So what would you say that draws and keeps your people a part of your team or I mean or whatever? Yeah, we treat them like humans like it's it's insane. People are such a host offshore employees. Mm hmm and like We just try to have a good culture We try to have fun. We try to be fair and treat them fairly and pay them decently. Um, as they like, show value and like, continue to be consistent and stuff. Um, and like... We just try to have a fun culture and just like treat people. But like, there's like, I, there's just some of this comes back to one of the hotheaded entrepreneurs. I remember it was like a young kid. It was just like, he's like, man, I have this like horrible turnover. Like they just keep quitting and keep quitting. Right. Like we don't, no one quits my companies because we just build a good place to work and we treat people like humans. And like, it was like, Hey, unlimited time off. It's like, you want to take three weeks? That's fine. As long as you like. Collaborate with your department and figure out how to get it covered. Like you're going to go do that. Cool. And like, no one abuses it. Some people take a good amount of time off as long as like their department keeps performing. Like, cool. Like we just treat people well. And like, is everybody have to be capable in English, I guess? Um, yeah, some positions more than others. Like, Uh, a lot of people are like written English, probably in like our production, you know, like, oh, they can speak, but they're like, they're going to sound like very unconfident or like broken English talking to you. And like, there'll be kind of a back of house, like audio production, video editors, stuff like that. Uh, front of house people are, a lot of them are in the Philippines or South Africa. And like, even though English may be a second language, they are like. There, you, you wouldn't even know you're talking to someone offshore most of the time. So, uh, yeah, we, we, it kind of varies depending on the role. Yeah, yeah. My wife and I have had a habit of, uh, taking on exchange students. I don't know if we've talked about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, we, we decided on, uh, Henry from Australia, uh, for our next one, he's coming in January and it's going to be so weird to not have a language barrier or much of one. He'll just have a great accent. It'll be very enjoyable. Oh, what was the joke that you just shared? Le Crikey. Le Crikey. I'll share that with him. That'll be my first thing I say. Yeah, exactly. That's how you introduce yourself to him. He's like, Oh, okay. So what would, what would your key leaders say about you other than the fact that you treat them like humans and, uh, Um, you know, like to have fun, like what, what are your outside and vision and ideas? I've heard that, but how is it to interact with you? Do you imagine? I think they would say like, I am someone that, um, shows up vulnerably and just like is honest with them on where we're at and cares about investing in them and trying to treat people well. And like, they've seen me lay people off and have to do really crappy stuff, but like they get that it's for. Um, but yeah, I think like overall, most of them have a pretty, I feel like positive perception where like, they feel like they learn or like when I do one on ones and I'm like coaching them and leveling them up. Like, uh, one of the biggest things, like things I've, one of my favorite quotes is like, if you, um, you know, if you want to be a leader, become someone worth following. And so like, I look at this whole journey as entrepreneurship is like, you just need to become a fricking great person. And then people are like, yeah, like, I don't want to Like, I'm this guy's at a standup desk walking all day, like trying to like take care of himself and become a better person and like his health and like, and his business and relationship. Like I'm a holistically working on myself as a person. And I think people see that first. Like, there's a lot of people out there that are just jerks to their employees and just treat them as like this transactional thing. And it's like, have zero empathy or care for them. And it's like. At the other end of this, like, business transaction, there is a human who has a life, who probably has like a spouse and kids, and like, just acknowledging that, it's like, a lot of people don't do that, so, yeah. Yeah, well thanks, that's uh, sage advice, I would say. Um, anything more on the business journey? Should we take a break, maybe, and do the faith family politics segment? That sounds good, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, alright, let's do that. And we are back. Um, so, We always talk about faith, family, and politics. I gave you that disclaimer, I assume. Yes, yes. Before we got here, pull your microphone just a little closer. Oh, there we go. Um, which do you prefer to talk about first? Let's just go in order. Faith first? Yes. Alright, uh, tell me about that for you. You grew up in a Christian home, or are you a Christian? I was raised Catholic. Okay. Um, not anymore. Semi Catholic? No, just not at all, uh, anymore. Uh, went kind of hard the opposite direction from that. Uh, eventually kind of, I don't know, found like philosophy and stuff like that and like I learned a lot of like spirituality and I've studied like Buddhism and a lot of Stoicism. The Greeks. Yeah, I thought you might seem like you were a Greek influenced guy. Yeah, uh, so I go heavily into that, um, and um, yeah, just, I don't know, I like to learn just how to live a great life. Yeah. Like I just study like more like philosophical thinkers and stuff. Yeah. And like that is kind of like the spirituality. There's a lot of resonance between all the great thinkers. Yes. Whatever. Background that came from and it was like I've studied a lot of like if you look at like Joseph Campbell's work at all He's a guy that wrote the hero's journey. So yeah, the whole every movie is based on that same hero's journey cycle He's the one that like created that framework that okay And basically his entire thing is he just looked at like Christianity looked at all the religions It's like they're all saying the same thing Every single thing is saying the exact same Thing like it's like, and it's just like the story of Noah is the same as the story of Jesus. If you break it down into right parts, it's both within this category. Yeah. And like, whether it's like Muslim or anything else, it's all the same story. And so like, I like to, so like even sometimes I like study like biblical things, but just from like that frame of like, what can I learn? What can I, yeah. Like what are the principles from this? And like yeah, like, so I just, I like to stay. It's almost like mythology I guess is like this category, like, um. Jordan Peterson does a lot in this kind of realm where he just takes like tons of mythical stories and is like all the same. I was like, well, it's like Christian fables and like fable pulls them all in. It's just, they all just teach us universal things about life. And so that's how I look at it. So how about like Is there a creator? You know, if you were going to categorize, are you agnostic? I just don't know quite which of these things is most valid. Uh, I look at it as like, whenever I hear the word God, I type to often replace it with nature. Okay. Um, where it's like, what I look at, as many people view as God, is I just see as like nature, which is just like the world is moving, like everything is going to happen, like things, like there's a lot that you can't control. Yeah, yeah. It's like, I got rear ended in a car accident, and like, screwed up a bunch of stuff, and it's like, I can be pissed about that. More like that could just be like, that's just, that was what was coming for me, like that was just happening, you know, like that was whatever, like why am I going to be upset that this thing, yeah, like, out of my control, and so it's just like, uh, I look at it as just, um, and then I think that the same level there is like getting in tune. with that of like, what is natural, what is right for you, and like, trying to get out of your head and like, feeling things. Yeah, yeah. That's something that I don't do enough. I like to compare, like, the, like, being in flow state with the, yourself or the universe or whatever is kind of the same thing as being in the path of God's call. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or whatever. Like, they're, whether the, your belief doesn't really matter, the metaphysical element is kind of doing the things that you're supposed to be doing based on some, At least somewhat external plan. And I think like where, uh, what I've always just like, I think because I was raised and like my sister went into the church power dynamics, like all of that cycles back to like. Ultimately, like, I don't like the whole like dogma and I really had a phrase on that, but it's like, whatever, like someone like puts their like language or like you hear, like, it's like, I, like, I hear like a preacher and I'm like, like, you know, it's like, but it's like, there's a lot of good in what they're saying, but like, it's wrapped up in like this dogma, which is how they talk about it. And like these principles that they try to dumb it down. And like, I just want to look at like, what are the lessons there and find like one of my friends, like my best friend, he like has a saying is he's like, he's trying to consistently build his own personal belief system. Yeah. And I think that is like the ultimate universal journey is like, not to be like, I am going to follow this. I'm going to follow that. It's like, what is. Your own personal belief system that works for you and like go explore and learn from a bunch of different things But whenever I found people what if mine is all Jews should die? Well, like that's that might well like this That's Hamas's personal belief system value system. Is that is that a valid one? But this is the thing so like one of my favorite books is like Sapiens. Hmm. Yeah, we're like It's phenomenal. And like, I think one of the things that opened my eyes in that it was just like everything's opinion and it's just like, it's all made up. And it's like the idea is like one of the things that like, like, like shattered my mind is like, well, imagine like, um, the Nazis won world war two. Sure. It's like the fundamental actual idea behind the thought that humans should really be bred for performance may actually have been better for the planet. Like it's a, it's a terrible thing to say. Right. But, like, when you actually, like, look at, like, you're like, there is another frame on that, and, like, human rights is, like, an opinion, and I'm, and, like, and I don't say this to say that, like, that's wrong, or that I have any issues with what was, but, like, it's just to realize that every single thing is, like, man made, and it's an idea. Uh, I think is a key thing, so like, yeah. Yes, and, like, I think that almost exemplifies the value of having an outside creator notion of morality, because, like, Otherwise, everything is justifiable virtually, and I've joked about like one of my things I've talked about just for fun party starters is, uh, you know, it's too bad that that humans haven't been selectively bred like dogs. Like if we could have Chihuahua sized people and giant Saint Bernard sized people and stuff like that, like imagine all the interesting things we could do. But car design would be way hard. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's like I love that because like that's a great frame to like put on it. Um, and Yeah, like it's, it's, yeah. And I think it potentially opens up, like, I think it's that Christian ideal especially, or even a Judeo Christian ideal that every human being is intrinsically valuable. That kind of prevents the notion of, well, ends justify the means and we're walking meatbags, so let's do it. And so I think there's some intrinsic value to some of the, the, the big three face or whatever in that the, not all of us have the same, not all humans have the same introspection as you were blessed with. And, and that's where I think society like needs to structure. But it's like one of the interesting, uh, other kind of ways to like look at that. So, um, the guy, Daniel Jurgen, who wrote this book called The New Map, he like kind of studies like energy and stuff like this. Um, really interesting guy, but I I've heard of him. Yeah. On the podcast maybe before, but never read it. Yeah. It, it is like he's very modern. It's timely. He's consistently writing books about like what is happening and like how did we get to this, this point Geopolitically. Mm-Hmm. And he had this whole thing on like breaking down like China versus the USA Mm-Hmm. And what, like, what he's like, this whole kind of thing, he's like, he's like, well, like, a lot of people don't get is it's not like China versus the USA. It's like two different ideologies toward the world. And it's like, America goes out into the world and they say, we will support you. And in return, we expect human rights. And China goes out into the world and says, like, they don't that they don't value human rights. And that's like a, just a fundamental, like, it's like, it's a whole society. Like, think about like, that's like a, it's like a country. Well, and especially individual rights. Yeah. And like, and so as Americans, we're like indoctrinated pledge of allegiance from the fricking like, you know, chill, like we are indoctrinated to, to believe that. And like, that's in, but like, who's to say that China is wrong. It's like, we, we all have, like, it's so ingrained in us that that is wrong, but that is like a different belief system. And, uh. And it's just like, it's just like counter to what America believes and what has been ingrained with us and like in all of our religions. It's like, who's to say? Like that, that, that, that, that, that is not. A way like, you know, well, maybe better, like arguably, although, like, I suspect you've probably read Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged or something like that. I, Fountainhead is my favorite book of all time. Right. I literally ordered a copy yesterday to give to a friend. Like, I, like, Fountainhead is my favorite book of all time. Right. Well, and that book would definitely, uh, throw some shade on that, that communist notion of decreased value of humanity. Now, yes, objectivism certainly does have some... Cruelty and you know most Ayn Rand fans are not anti abortion or whatever, like, you know, I'm in a weird place where I'm both a fan of Jesus and Ayn Rand and many others, but like talk to me about that, like, it feels like you would not want, and maybe you're saying you've been indoctrinated and so it's just your perspective that makes you think that China wouldn't be the right way to live, but you wouldn't like that, you don't like people telling you what to do or how to dance. I, yeah, like, at the end of the day. I don't think I would want to live in like the Chinese system, but I also don't want to sit here on the other side of the planet and like judge and like impose and like, and like, that's, uh, in, in, in, I don't know. It's just like, it's just, I don't even know. Like, I don't even know if I care that, like what I'm just trying to get at is like, it's a different way to look at it. And I think that's what, I think that's what I try to do is like, I don't, I don't really have an opinion, but I want to look at it from their perspective, too. Like, one of the most mind blowing experiences of my life is I went to the Vietnam War Museum in Vietnam. Like, that was earth shattering. And, like, when you see something from other people's perspectives, it just, like, changes you. And it's, like, not to say that any side was right or wrong. But it's just, like... There is value in seeing other people and I think a lot of people like and especially just like yeah, they're just yeah Yeah, yeah. No. Yeah, it's a We have a thing we call freethink, you know, and freethinking is something that's commonly associated with kind of anti structure and dogma and so anyway, I try to do my best to balance that fence of Value in deep wisdom that's been distilled and processed and Uh, independent thought, even in light of those things. So yeah, I think we have some resonance there. Yeah. I love it. Um, family, um, all, uh, I got, I mean, I think we finished the faith part, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So family, um, like what do you want to know? I know, um, what, tell me more about your wife. Uh, so my wife, uh, we moved here to Fort Collins about a year ago, so she's kind of getting Oh, just a year ago? Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Getting the stuff. So you were fresh in town when I first met you last fall. Yeah, yeah. I met you pretty, pretty quickly. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. You were one of the first, like, local people I met, so. Interesting. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so she's, uh, like, volunteering in a lot of local organizations here, so she's part of, um, the, the Bicycle Advisory Committee. She works, volunteers on a Vindicate a bunch. Oh, cool. I just met the founder of Vindicate the other day. He came to my Yeah, awesome dude, like very, like what they're building there is super cool. Agreed. And, um, yeah, she, like, volunteers and, like, is involved in just, like, a bunch of, like, the, the Junior League, I think the, like, women's group there as well. So she's involved in a bunch of those. What's your name? Uh, Elizabeth. Elizabeth. Hi, Elizabeth. I'm sure you're listening. She is going to be the bomb diggity in the Fort Collins community. Awesome. And she'll hate that I ever said that. Run for city council, Elizabeth. She will, she will someday be on a city council. She won't admit that today, but I know she will. Maybe school board first if you want to. Do you guys have children? Uh, no children. Okay. No children, so. Oh, you're dinks too. Or not really, because she doesn't make any money. We have two dogs. Dog kids. Well, we have a dog and a cat, but we can hang out sometime. Because it's hard to find, like, married people that don't have children sometimes to hang out with. Yeah, you're like, kind of like, I feel like it's this divergent thing in your friendships, where like, It's like someone has a kid, and it's like, oh, that one's gone. Yeah, kind of. Or not gone, but it's like, it's going to be real limited for the next, 12 years. Like, it's like, it's just, it's going to totally change the dynamic. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about you guys first, uh, connecting. What was the, uh, moment when it was real? Cause you knew each other back in high school, right? No, it was college. Early college. College we met. Yeah. Um, we, uh, made out at a girl talk concert. Okay. Uh, that was our first introduction. Went on a few really awkward dates and then, um, called it off and then, Okay. Uh, got back together probably about a year, year and a half later when, uh, randomly needed an, a date to an EO event actually. Oh, entrepreneur's organization. Yeah. Yeah. So I was doing an EO event in Nashville and, uh, I was, uh, needed a date and, um, to their Valentine's day party and called her up and then we were back in it and we've been together since. So what was the, uh, What was the source of the awkwardness early on, uh, in your perspective? We were just, uh, probably not both at the right phase of life, uh, to, to be together. And, um, yeah, it was just like, I think, I don't know, there was a, there was a, there was a lot to unpack there. We're, we're couples counseling, and like, there's a, you know, there's, there's always a lot to unpack. So, yeah, but it was ultimately like, It was not the right time for either of us. And then you meet again a year and a half later and you're like, Oh, this is interesting. We've both just gone through a bunch of our first failed experiences at relationships. Oh, like you're actually are cool. You're so much better than the last two people. I thought you were just a makeout person, but like, you're pretty sweet. Like, yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. What would she say was the thing that, uh, made her say yes when you asked her to the Valentine's Day party? Um, I think she was just excited by it. It sounded fun. It was like a costume party and like, it was just like, whatever. Like I'm going to go get free drinks at a, like a business function with a bunch of rich people and like super swanky event venue, like. Sure. Yeah, it was cool. A no-brainer. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that's what I think. Maybe that gave you the cred then for the next day stuff too. Yeah, exactly. So I like it. Um, are you guys like happily no. Childhood or are you thinking about knocking? That is knocking some out. That is on the upcoming agendas like our, our marriage counselor. That was like our request when we went to marriage counseling and then we're working our way toward that and, uh, almost came up this last one. We still got some other like rocks to get out of the way first. I get it. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I recruited my marriage counselor to the second Loco Think Tank chapter, which was nice because I didn't have any money, but I needed, we needed some major counseling. So we traded his dues for my marriage counseling for a year. People like, whenever I tell people, they're like, Oh, you guys like, you messed up. Like, it's like your relationship broke. No, no, it's like, it's a really, I think more people should do it. Totally. Like, it's just like, even, even if you're just like doing it once a month or something and like you're at a good, healthy relationship, but like, Totally. It will knock down walls that you don't even know were there. Outside perspective matters a lot. And there's a lot of skill in a good counselor. A lot, yeah. Um, so yeah. Actually, a number of my friends have come to me, and frankly, Jill's friends come to her, to be like, I know you guys went to marriage counseling, so can you, like, Talk to me and Bob. They don't actually want to go to counseling, they just want to get second handed. Because they're scared of the stigma and all that. That's dangerous. That's when you're like, no, go to my counselor. Yeah, exactly, 100%. Oh, I've referred... I bet Josh owes me... quite a few six packs that are unpaid. If you're listening, Josh Emery, uh, you owe me for all those good referrals over the years. Alright. Anyway, I digress. Um, so, well, Elizabeth, shout out. Uh, we look forward to meeting you at a future occasion. Maybe we can double date sometime. Um, Faith Emily, politics. Where do you, where do you... Put yourself in that sphere. So you big, big Trump or big Biden? I'm pretty middle of the road, but more Biden. Fair. I'm more not Trump. Yeah. That's fair. Uh, yeah. Like I, uh, I just like, yeah, the whole Trump thing, that was wild. That was, uh. Well, the whole Biden thing, frankly, is disturbing. Like, people find it disturbing on both sides. Nobody wants to vote against grandpa and that's fine. Asshole is way easier. I, yeah. Like, I don't. But in terms of like, How much should the government do? Like, is the government doing enough to help Americans? Is it doing too much? Would it be better if we... I'm a libertarian, so I just want to tear it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no money in that, though, so no, it never happens. Can I start off by telling you I had jury duty yesterday. Okay. And I got disqualified. For what? Uh, so they get to these questions where they like have to go through like trying to understand if you're going to be biased. Yeah. And they're like, so do you realize, like they had this, they were so bad at explaining it, these like attorneys. Like they were so bad and they had this whole metaphor about a BLT that made no sense to me. Okay. And I had to like, it was like three questions later, I like raised my hand and I was like, Can I go back to like the BLT thing because like that didn't make sense to me what you even were trying to say, but I think I disagree with it. And I was like, so what you're trying to tell me is that as a juror, I have to vote guilty or not guilty based on the law, not what I think is right or wrong in this case. And that it is my, like, it is the law that I have to follow the law. And so like, even if I don't agree with the law that someone's about to be convicted for, I have to vote them guilty. I was like, no, I could do that. No. And I was like, and when this blew my mind in there, it's like, I'm in there and I'm like, and I'm thinking, I'm like. People were imprisoned for marijuana, like 10 years, like, you know, 15, 20 years ago, and now we're selling it in stores. People, like, if today you could get caught with mushrooms, next year it's legal. Like, and like, like, and like, and think about it, like in a state, like what, imagine I get put up into a case and it's like someone in like a state that's like outlawed abortion. And I'm like, I don't agree with that. And I'm going to vote someone guilty for having like, like an illegal abortion. Like, like, I'm just like. No, like I can't agree. I can't vote on a law. I disagree with the law is made by men. It's sometimes broken and wrong and like, this is what blew my mind. And like, they go through this whole thing where they pretty much thought it was like, okay, well, you're disqualified, like, and, and basically, but like, she's like, and then she's like, you know, their whole, they have the whole panel of 25 jurors. And she's like, does anyone else like feel like what he's feeling or have that same, like, they couldn't follow the law, you know, and do what it said. Only one other guy out of 25 and I was like, you 23 people are going to blindly follow the law, like, what the hell? Like, what the fuck? I described the, uh, law as like, suggestion with consequences. Like, I'm proud of the fact that generally I drive 15 miles an hour over the speed limit when it's appropriate, when it's in the, you know. And I've paid, you know, I've gotten 25 speeding tickets over the years and I consider it a moderately small price to pay for all the time I've saved. And, and I think there should be super licenses. Like if an 85 year old grandma could go 55, I should be able to go 75. Yeah. In that space. Sorry. Anyway. Yeah. I digress. But I, you know, that's part of the libertarian notion and you're probably a closet libertarian in some, I, I, like, I will admit, like, people started using that word and I was like, what does that even mean? Uh, for a while, but like, I'm probably some level in that capacity. Like I, I like what I, like, the thing is like I had that whole thing and I was like, I think 95 percent of the law is pretty good. Yeah. And I think it's needed there to protect people. But like, there's probably some 5 10 percent that's always pretty messed up gray zone. Right. And like, wrong. Like, and like, it's like, there was a point in time. And we'll go back to human rights, like where it was okay to have slaves and like, be like, you know, like that was a law. It was your property. And like, that's the thing. It's like, like laws change. And like, that is what I think is like, uh, a huge thing to realize is just like, it's gonna change. Well, I think that's, you know, that takes us back to the faith conversation a little bit. Like the notion of natural law. Like the notion of natural law says that thou shalt not have a slave. Yeah. In some ways, you know, that, that you're not subject to another person in that. Way or whatever or that, you know, I can say what I want to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I don't know It's um, yeah It's I sit kind of like middle on the road on all that and stuff and it's just like I'm just in general and it's Yeah, I don't know. It's I like the Libertarian, but I recognize that the law needs to be there, but I also have a strong disrespect for the law, because there's a lot of stupid shit in the law too, like, it's just like I sit there on that middle ground. Fair enough, I think that's reasonable. Um, anything else in the political realm that you would like to make observation of? Um, Is there anything for your business, like on a political standing, that matters? Uh, No, like we, we will turn away, like, we had someone that wanted to do like a, like a guns podcast, and I was just like, um, nah. Don't really feel about that. Nah, like. So you not, not appreciate Second Amendment? Uh, I, like. It's a sensitive day, we just had a big Maine, like Maine. It's like a fucking lonely ass Maine had a huge. Yeah, like there's, there's always a thing, like the thing is like, yeah, like at the end of the day, it's like, I think it's an outdated law. It's like. Like, it's just like machine guns didn't exist at that time. And like, ultimately, like, they're just like the, uh, yeah, like, like, so this is the thing, like, uh, if I, so I think Sam Harris, like hit this well on some of his podcasts, a lot of it is, and like, he, one of the things that hit me, it was like the, he was basically talking about like the fear of like manmade viruses, like after COVID, which is like a serious, like reasonable fucked up. And that was kind of my thing. I was like. If you fuckers created this, which I think you did, and now you want to sell us the cure for it, which I think you did, you can fuck off. I'd rather die. Yeah, like, well, I don't know, but like, the thing, the point that he had was like, there will always be individuals who kill people. And the amount of damage they can do is restricted by the tools available to them. And so that's why in like, Japan, like the worst mass murders you have is someone who takes like a fucking machete to a subway. And like, they'll kill like, you know, maybe 17 people in some like crazed mass incident where like they go wild with machete, but it's like, that's the worst damage that like someone can do there in a society without guns. And, like, I don't like guns, but I don't see the possible way to unravel this in this country, uh, with where we are today. It's like, I see where it's at, but it's like, this is where we are. But I'm like, we should probably make it harder to get guns that can do serious damage. Like, that is, that's where, like, I think the only, like, realistic stance that can still be had. There's no way we're gonna take back all the guns, like, you know? Do you think it'll ever be hard for maniacs to get guns that can do serious damage, though? I think it needs to be like, I think if you look at like Europe, like it's freaking hard and expensive to get a gun. Sure. Uh, and it's like, I think, I think that is a responsibility if you want like a machine gun in this country, like, like even in Europe, like. I don't think like driver's licenses, it's a freaking joke in this country and that's why we have like so many driving deaths, right? Like in Europe, it costs like three thousand dollars And you have to go through like six months of courses to get a driver's license in most countries Like it's a process because people they take it seriously and there's like just way less motor deaths Yeah, and there's people here like my freaking niece Got, took a driving test in Tennessee, which involved driving around the block. Right. And she drove it with a manual. The guy giving her the driving test didn't know how to drive a manual. Right. Like, that is messed up, man! Like, and so like, I just feel like there is just this, in general, like, lack in this country. It's like this, uh, like almost like entitlement to like guns and vehicles and these things that are essentially death weapons. And, and I feel like we've never taken that seriously enough and I feel like it's honestly scary. It's just a constant fear I have.'cause it's like, oh yeah, I don't think we can unravel that. Well, I'm a motorcyclist. Oh God. And I, yeah, when I was, when I was a kid, like 30 years ago or whatever, like the kids that were driving fast were teenage boys. Now it's teenage girls. That are like, texting, and like, they just go as fast as the traffic ahead of them will possibly allow. I got rear ended by a teenage girl on her cell phone who never hit the brakes. I was at a stoplight 40 miles an hour on 287. Oh fuck. Smashed into the back of my car so hard that I hit the car in front of me. They hit the car in front of them, four car pile up for me getting rear ended, totaled my car, screwed up my back, screwed up my wrist, like, it's like, what the hell? And, and, and it's, like for teenage boys, it used to be kind of like, uh, uh, uh, a sprouting of their... Independence and manliness and whatever with teenage girls. It's like disrespect of the risk of the situation Yeah, and I hate to say it that way but like that's what I see when I see people going way too fast in traffic It's teenage girls looking at their phones. It's horrifying. Yeah, it's terrifying. Yeah, so I don't spend a lot of time in town I'm a motorcycle. Yeah, that's a very exposed situation And that's the most dangerous element of it. Yeah, like 25 and like 287, I have fear driving those roads. And it's like justified fear. Reasonable fear, yeah. Yeah, it's just, ugh, God, like, yeah. Um, and, do you not, like, what do you think about trying to, you said you can't really fix America now with all these guns. Yeah. Um, so you just make it harder from this point and then who's the decider? That's a big question I have. It's like I get it if you're a felony conviction or if you've got psychological problems But where's the I think like it's just like I mean, I don't know I don't go that totally that deep into it I'll be candidly and this is where like the politicians like these friggin idiots out there just talk and they don't know how to talk But it's like yeah, it's like at the end of the day. It's like honestly I think it needs to come from a federal thing because state lines don't work like in something like this Uh, and I think it just needs to be like expensive, but like people will be so pissed about it, you know, like, and that's the thing is like, it just goes, most gun owners are probably below the yeah, average and that's the thing is like, and that's like, when you look at the, a lot of times these situations, it's like somebody shooting, it's just like, there's like some kid at like a subway, like worker who like does this stuff. And it's like, it's often not. There's occasional outliers of like the highly affluent people, but like rare it's it's often like these low income people It's like create the barriers. It's like don't give people Cause it's a privilege. It's like, if you want that, you should have to work and earn that. And I just hate to say it, but like someone who's a high earner probably has a lower likelihood and a higher mental health score to get to a position in life of higher earning that they're probably not going to abuse it as much. Less likely to go Columbine kind of style. Yeah. Versus like an 18 year old kid who's like naive and like. Not emotionally vulnerable to all these pressures of the world. It's just so easy right now. Fair enough. Can you just tell me how the Israel Hamas thing should be fixed real quick? I don't know. I'm just playing. It's an impossible question. It's one of those, like, as current things are going on, I'm not like a news junkie diving on, like, I'm aware it's happening, I'm checking in, but like, I don't, I don't find it healthy to dive in, like, I like, like, the Ukraine Russia thing, it's like... Um, month or two after this starts, I start looking at people doing like deep diagnoses of like, how did we get here? Like that's the stuff that I wait for. Not the like news breaking headlines. I wait for the people that are like, let me give you the history of how this got to this Oh, you can find 20 year old stuff that, on Israel Hamas, that'll be fine, or anyone go back to 2006 or 2008. So probably, probably could educate myself more, but I haven't done that yet on this situation. It's a, it's a no win situation really. Like it's, yeah. Yeah. I digress. Yeah. Yeah. Um. The Loco Experience is our closing segment. What's the craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share with our listeners? Uh, crazy experience. Outside of this rear ending fight. Yeah, that wasn't fun. But like, probably... No brakes at all? No. The insurance companies can tell that or something? Or there's just no marks on the road or whatever? I never heard brakes. Like, I just saw it. Just full fuckin spleed. Like, it just smashed. It was... It was scarier than that Box Elder bug on your glasses. Yeah, it was quite scary. Yeah, and like, it was so shocking I didn't even really know what happened. And I just remember like... Literally, I was like, my glasses fell off, where are my glasses? And then like, the next thing I'm like, oh shit, the car's full of smoke. What the hell? Like, like, I'm like, oh this, I'm like, oh wow, this was really bad. And I like, stumble out, I'm like, I'm okay, and I'm like. Holy crap. My car is gone. Like, yeah, like, yeah. So it was, uh, it was wild. Um, but that probably not the craziest, um, craziest would probably be our first year of travel. Okay. Uh, we were just really stupid. We like landed in the Philippines and, uh, we tried to go rent this like hut. On an island in the Philippines thinking I was like thinking I was going to work remotely from there and that they would because like they had Wi Fi listed on Airbnb. That was before I realized like Wi Fi and Airbnbs is a very qualitative metric. Uh, oh, oh, good catch. Yeah, it's one of these fancy glasses. Yeah, but, um, I, uh, We basically go to this town, we have to take like a four or five hour bus ride, to go then get a ferry, and then take us to this Airbnb. And so, we take this bus, and the bus is delayed by like four hours, because it's like the Philippines, and things rush very efficiently, so we miss our ferry. And so we get there, and we have this guy go try to take us to the ferry spot. And they're like, no, no, the ferries, you missed all the ferries for the day, you're not going to the island. So then we have to take this guy, take us back, and we pay him. And then we're like, well, I guess we're gonna have to get a hotel and go to this place tomorrow. And so we go get a hotel. Uh, we stay in this hotel, I wake up, and there's like, it's just like super basic, it's like a bed in a room, and there's nothing else, so like, I set my glasses on the floor, uh, next to the bed, I step on my glasses, and like, I don't have a backup pair of glasses, and I am like blind as hell without glasses, like, my prescription's like a negative 7. 5, so like, I'm really blind, and so we have to go find a, uh, optometrist to take my lenses, And cut them down into a smaller frame and get me a new pair of glasses. So we spend basically all of our cash on this pair of glasses. And so like at this, cause like we just weren't really planning for this. And then we then like our whole budget for this month. Yeah, it was like, I don't know. It was like 80 bucks or something to get these new glasses. And then like, we try to like go get money from the ATM to go figure out this ferry situation and get back to this Airbnb and like the whole town's internet's down and like, it's like we're just like in rural Philippines trying to go to this Island on the coast. And like the ATMs don't work because the internet's down the signals down and we're like, what do we do? Like we just wait for it. It'll some come back on at some point and we're just like wait, so we don't have any money And we're stuck here And like and so like we we eventually get like the cab driver to take us back to her the hotel And like we give him like the last of our money And we're just like, we go to this hotel and we're just like, we don't know what to do. Like, we have no internet, we can't look anything up, we are like completely disconnected. We do have money, but not that much. Yeah, and so, uh, we end up sitting at this hotel and like just, you're just talking to this with like zero connection to the outside world. You can't contact anybody. This is a fairly fresh relationship too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're like, we're like less than two years in. And, uh, and so like they gave us some free food at the hotel. Like, thank God, like they like were like pity and then they put us, they got, they got their shuttle. They basically found a shuttle service to take us back to the city. So that we could then go to an ATM and pull out money and pay them for like our food and then for the the shuttle and all of this stuff and like pay them for that, uh, after like we were there. So we were like, we literally can't pay you now and all this stuff. And so we get in this shuttle that goes four hours back to the city. And behind me, there's this, like, this, uh, mother and her kid and her kid gets car sick. Oh gosh. And is just vomiting. The whole four hour trip in this little, like 16 passenger van, like through the mountains to the city and we're just sitting there like, Oh my God. Oh my god, we're like 23 years old, like, what the hell? What are we doing with this? And then we get there and like, we give, we go to this, he drops us at an ATM and he just watches us go get the money and then we pay him and he drives off and we're like. Sitting there with our suitcases, like, I guess we got to go find a coffee shop and get some internet and like, find a place to stay tonight. And it was just like, it was just, we never did make it to the year. No, we never made it to the island. We just found a place that night. We lost our money on that Airbnb, which we were like broke as hell at this point in time in life. And like, it was, uh, and then we just like found this little like Airbnb and we just like, didn't leave. Just scat by, cause even the work you did for freelance digital nomad stuff, like, you're not gonna get paid tomorrow, probably. Yeah, we were just like, it was just, I was just not good at, it was just, uh, it was a brutal, brutal, well, and I feel like most people that went out into, like, world travel, like, have something like that. But, uh, you were a little more naive than most. It was super, super a year and a half later, you were like way different. Yeah. Learn to carry a cash reserve, high cash reserves and multiple currencies hidden in different parts of your like backpack and your suitcase. So that way, no matter what happens, you got some cash to get you out of a situation like that. So that's my travel hack. I like it. I like it. Yeah. Um, if people are listening to this and be like, I like that Jake guy, I want to look him up. and hire him to do some ads or some podcast production, whatever. How do they find you? Jake jorgeman. com or just Google Jake Jorgeman, J O R G O V A N. Personal brand website kind of is the hub to everything and find all the various companies and things through that. I dig it. So. Any, uh, final jokes for our listeners? Do you want to dig one out? Alright, I'd like to close with a joke, if we may. If it could be a real groaner, that would be ideal. What is your foot's favorite instrument? I don't know. A shoehorn. Oh, baby. So bad. We're gonna call it. Alright. Thanks for being here, Jake. Thanks for having me.