EXPERIENCE 134 | Strategic Planning, Conflict Resolution, and Working Toward a Stronger Tomorrow in Haiti with Sean Follin of Encounter Strategies

Sean Follin is the founder and principal consultant of Encounter Strategies based in Fort Collins, Colorado, but serving clients nationally and occasionally internationally. He's a great example of Fort Collins as a choice city. If you can choose to live anywhere, where do you choose? And it turns out, in my neighborhood, Sean is a remarkably experienced strategic planner for his age, and worked his way up through two consulting organizations in Washington D. C. before making his way to Colorado. Sean's mentor in the craft is Chris McGough, founder of The Clearing, Inc., Consulting, and author of the book The Primes, How Any Group Can Solve Any Problem. Sean's practice is built on the foundations outlined in The Primes and enhanced by their upfront data collection with clients, mostly professional services businesses. We delve into the fundamentals of strategic planning in this episode, which overlaps significantly with conflict resolution, and I explore with Sean his work with a non profit based in Haiti, which has assembled the most important and influential business leaders of the nation. Representing over 60 percent of the GDP, the hope for this group is to forge a new vision for Haiti and lead the way to renewal of law and order and functional governance. Sean and I were only recently introduced, but we've enjoyed every minute since, and I'm excited to see where his significant skills might impact our Lowe community in the months and years ahead. We went almost three hours in this episode, but there's loads of great business insight and many great stories. And we put a nice dent in a fresh bottle of tequila, so the conversation flows freely and sometimes gets silly. So please tune in and enjoy my conversation with Sean Fallin. Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt Baer, and I'm joined today by Sean Fallon. And Sean is the founder of Strategic Planning and... Um, conflict negotiation firm called Encounter Strategies. And uh, I was introduced by Sean by, by somebody recently. Yeah, it was, um, Chad at the Chamber. Chad from the Chamber. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, Chad's always on the lookout for anybody that seems extra smart. And so, uh, why don't you tell, tell us about Encounter Strategies. Sure. What are you doing? Who are you working with? Yeah, so Encounter Strategies is a, it's a boutique consulting firm. We do strategic planning for organizations, large and small, primarily in the professional services world. So if you are running a company that is selling time at rate, and you're trying to figure out how do I increase profitability? How do I generate more revenue? Um, how do I transition or navigate a phase change at, you know, people who are sitting at the helm of professional services firms are often wondering like, okay, running a 15 person firm is different than running a 50 person versus running a 500 person firm. And so, um, there, there are a lot of stage gates that organizations have to go through and be really thoughtful about as they navigate. And so we do a lot of that. And we do a lot of conflict negotiation, which is almost a whole separate, uh, topic. And we can kind of take them one at a time, a little bit. Right, I kind of figure. Well, on the, on the, the professional services, so that's like architects, or engineers, things like that. Yep. Maybe even lawyers. Correct, correct. All of the above. Especially lawyers, because they make a lot more per hour, so they'll pay you more. Yeah, yeah. And it, and it's tough, uh, you know, I think as people, Sometimes people find themselves as, uh, you know, surprise business owners in a way. It's like they started with an idea of like, hey, I'm a really good lawyer. Right. I've got a couple of buddies who are really good lawyers. Let's get together. And the next thing you know, They're full of hiring more lawyers. Right, exactly. The lawyers want to be partners and Yes. How do you navigate that? You're spot on. You're spot on. Um, we also do a lot of work with consulting firms and staffing firms. There's, there are some tried and true business models at the core of professional services firms that when you can bring them to light and have your executive team sort of sitting, sitting around the table together, having the same conversation about what you want to do and how things are going, um, it, it really opens up kind of what's possible. for you and your organization. Is that why you see so many acquisitions of, especially like once an engineering firm gets up to 25 or 50 or sometimes 100, then they're a prime candidate for acquisition? Well, especially, so, and this is, I've given my mentor a lot of grief about this, uh, because we were doing a project for an engineering firm. And we were talking about this company that was scaling, and one of the things that they had that, to me, occurred as very advantageous is to increase their output if you were looking at the, the thing that they had been designing and, and, and, Um, building, they just had to add some machines, you know, for that particular, and I guess I'm sorry, I said engineering, I meant manufacturing, but they just needed to add some machines to be able to increase output. Whereas with a professional services firm, you got to add people. And that can be a very, very slow process, uh, if you, if you do it well, right? Like you're paying. pretty good wages per the hour and then hoping to sell that hour for at least twice as much to your clients. And make sure your people aren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs. Exactly. So you get to a big enough size and suddenly you can't actually hire fast enough the, the number of people that you need in order to maintain your model. You know, maintain the balance of your operation in a, in a profitable way. And so, A lot of times those, those companies that reach that sweet spot, they become very, very appealing for a larger company that's trying to grow very fast. Oh, right. So, or not even grow fast, just grow enough to maintain. the, the viability of their operation because they're not profitable enough already, or because they're adding overhead so often that they keep, got to keep, yeah, well, it's, it's that. So it, at a certain stage for professional services firm, you know, you've got to be maintaining enough of, uh, You've got to be maintaining enough opportunity for your people for them to grow and step into the next level. Oh, for them to grow. Yeah, exactly. Otherwise, people start to get upset, and there's all sorts of implications with client delivery and whatnot. So professional services firms have to grow. And so, and then at a certain stage, whereas it was okay to grow by five people, uh, you know, a month or five, five people a year when you're smaller, if you're a bigger firm growing by five, it's not going to cut it. You suddenly need to be thinking about how do I grow by 500 people or how do I grow by 5, 000 people? And so it's a very. You know, not every, not every firm needs to think like that, but that's one of the, the benefits. You know, my mentor actually, he, he keyed into that model. He said, listen, I'm growing the firm to 250, 300 people and selling it. And uh, you know, made a lot of money doing that. So who are your prime candidates? Are they those smaller ones, the 25 fifties that want to be able to control their own destiny and, and built into that growth? I, it's a good question. And the, um, I. Um, we support side, you know, anybody really, yeah, we're size agnostic. I would say if you were to really squeeze, you know, twist my arm, I would say, okay, if you've got revenue somewhere in the 10 million to a hundred million dollar range, you're still dealing with some of those, especially at the 10 million range, but even still at the a hundred million dollar range, you're still dealing with some of those legacy structures or legacy ways of doing business from. You know, you're, you're early days that can, they can really haunt you and I, uh, I have a phrase for our next level groups. I say, uh, too big to be small and too small to be big. I saw that on the website and I that really captures. That strange phase, those million dollar businesses out there, they imagine that if they could just get to 10 million, all their problems would be solved. But 10 million doesn't go as far as it used to, you know, not when you're trying to build out a C suite and really get effective inventory controls or different. Yeah, it's really, you just have 10 million worth of problems. You look backwards and you say, man, wouldn't it be nice to You know, so, um What, is there more things we should talk about strategic planning or is that more of a storytelling time and we should talk about conflict resolution and maybe why would you do both? Well, I think the strategic plan, so strategic planning really sets the stage for conflict resolution. Um, and so one plug, I think a lot of companies, um, they wonder, you know, some, some companies are, are all about strategic planning and then the question just becomes, how do they want to do it? What kind of way or approach? Yeah, which format, whatever. Right, precisely, precisely. And then some companies are saying, well, I don't know if we want to do strategic, you know, do we really need it? Yeah. We're growing fine. We are. We've got a lot of momentum. Exactly, exactly. And in, in my mind, that's actually the best time to do strategic planning because that's, that's when you have the most. Amount of resources and the most capacity, right. When things are growing wrong is usually when a lot of people do strategic planning. Yeah. And it's a, and a crisis planning is way different than strategic planning. And so that's why, uh, it's, it's. You know, I can't, and obviously I'm biased, you know, I run a strategic planning firm, so I've been Everybody needs Kool Aid, right? Yeah, like I When you got a hammer, everybody needs an anvil. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. But I, I think, um, the people who I have seen do it really well, they create really powerful context through Strategic planning. And I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase, the context is decisive, but it's really, it's the process that allows them to, um, really filter out the noise and get to the signal in terms of what the market's trying to tell them and, and to follow it. And, and so it's, I think it's really magical almost. And that's a, you know, it's a woo woo word to use in the business world. Um, but I think it's really magical when companies can. Can tap into what the market's trying to tell them and then structure themselves to take advantage or op, you know, take advantage of that opportunity. So I'm struck with two questions. One is, it seems to me that there's a lot of like communications element, background, like how do you understand these things and communicate it well and whatever. Um, and then secondly, and you can answer'em separately if you want. Is this like a project, and then you're out, or do you do a thing and then come back from time to time with your patients? So, uh, I'll take them in reverse order. So, um, the, the short answer is that It varies. Um, some companies, they just need a proverbial kick in the ass and it's, you know, things have gotten stuck and they just for a short duration of time say, Hey, Sean, come in, help us get unstuck. And then, you know, I send them on their way and they're, they're building off of the momentum or whatever it is that that shifted for them. Uh, and then other times there are companies where it's, It's a long haul thing, and there's a team, and everybody's embedded, and there's, you know, ongoing engagement, and there might be, um, So there's some diagnostic up front, almost, on both parts. Definitely. What do we need, and how long is it going to take? Definitely. Definitely. Is it just the leadership team? Do we have the skills to transmit and relay this to the rest of the team? Or do you need help with that too? Precisely. Precisely. A big part of what I do is, you know, I call it the bus. Do we have the right people on the bus? Are they sitting in the right seats? Is the bus headed in the right direction? You know, it's a, it's a very useful metaphor. And I'm sure, I'm not even sure. I've heard that one before. Yeah, and I know everybody uses it. I talk about throwing people off the bus sometimes. Sometimes you throw them under the bus, you know? We don't do that. a conflict. But to get back to your notion about communication, I think that is a big part of it. Again, and that ties back to the idea that the context is decisive. I think the leaders who are really strong in terms of creating a vision and then enrolling people in that vision lean heavily on their communication skills. The, the myths, or the, the myth, I think, shows up a lot when people think they're communicating. And that's, that's the disconnect. It's like, you know, you're, you're talking, but you're not communicating. Right. That can show up in different ways. And as that reach gets farther, you know, it's, it's easy sometimes for that visionary to gather 10 or 25 people around them. But as there's people, you know, two and three and four layers away that they, oh, that, I don't even remember his name, you know, and didn't, what was, he had a baby, right? You know, and just that kind of thing that when it's a five person firm or a 20 person firm is easy. I call that the law of strawberry jam, which I stole from a book, uh, the secrets of consulting. And, uh, but he talks about that phenomenon and said that the people have a limited amount of influence or ability to enroll. And that the bigger a group gets, it's like, you can spread all your jam on one piece of toast, but if you have a loaf of bread, that jam, like, there's no more jam, you know? And so each toast gets a little bit less. If you have lots of loaves, everybody gets a little taste and that's it. So it's, it's, it's a challenge. And like, I think about like an Elon Musk or a Steve Jobs, they just spray jam all over the whole place, kinda. Right. That's like, they exude it. Like nobody doesn't know what Elon's thinking at X or Tesla. And I, and I think there's, I'm of two minds when it comes to, to, you know, people like Elon. Yeah. Both of'em are kind of assholes, so I shouldn't really pick them up as good examples of how to be a great leader. Yes. But there's no denying that they're very effective. Yeah. You know, I mean, they're, they're the, the, the way that they, it's sour jam. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But, but to your point, the way that they are able to, um, bring along entire nations or entire globes in terms of getting something done is remarkable. I think my. My, what I'm often cautioning, and I don't want to sound like a Debbie Downer, but it's a, we're not all Elon Musk and we're not all Steve Jobs, like we, we, you know, I ain't playing in Washington. Yeah, exactly. Right. Exactly. I'm not gonna be playing in the NBA. You know, I may enjoy playing basketball, but I'm not playing in the NBA. And so I've got to, I've got to play the hand I was dealt. And I think a lot of leaders, you know, while they're Elon and Steve Jobs offer. Huge, huge amounts of inspiration and, um, you know, we, it, uh, they provide this model to, to aspire to. Here's what excellence looks like. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's, it's not, there's also a, um, you know, and let's start here now, you know, like let's, let's really be, be, be, let's meet. Right. Well, I think there's this mysticism that, you know, the leaders of our fortune 500 companies and of our government and even all the other even medium sized companies and stuff are like these. amazing humans, like the Elines, like the Steves and stuff, but for the most part, they're just a bunch of Joes and Janes and stuff like the rest of us. That is a hundred percent true. I, I, I spent a good portion of time working inside of the government as a government consultant. And... again, there's a lot of extraordinary people in there. And it's people, the people, you know, no matter how extraordinary they are, they're still people, and so everybody puts their pants on one leg at a time. I think I was in high school, and was it George W. Bush would have been the president then? Or whatever. One of the Bushes. 2000 to 2008. And I was like, I'm smarter than this guy, I'm pretty sure. You know, and it really just kind of changed my view of the world to reach that conclusion. I just watched the, uh, the 9 11 documentary, Inside the War Room. It's on Apple TV. Just last night, because today is September 12th. So I watched it on September 11th. And one of the things that I was struck by, Uh, you know, first off, there's all sorts of information that I wasn't really familiar with about, about that day. And I, I remember that day very well. Uh, but one of the things that really hit me was, you know, George W. was at the center in terms of the, the format of the documentary. Like, he was the main interviewee. But they also brought in all of the secretaries and there were some close advisors and the chief of staff that, you know, they were, they were also interviewing them. And it, it really illustrated how. Um, you know, it's not just one person. It's really, it's a collection of people and, and there's all sorts of dynamics that show up inside of having a collection of people, but, um, but it, it, you know, there are times where I look, you know, I might see somebody, it's like, wait a minute, how did they, I, I seem to have, what the hell, you know, Peter Prince pulled way high. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But, uh, but then I'm reminded at times too, like, well, it's not, It's not alone. Nothing's happening in isolation. It's funny how old quotes, and now today, memes can say more truth than anything, but that Helen Keller line, uh, alone we can do so little, together we can do so much, resonates. Mm. Beautiful. And for those of us that try to do too much on our own, it's obvious. Oh, my. I struggle with that, you know. I definitely have an element of lone wolf syndrome at times. You know, it's both an advantage or a strength, but it also, in certain circumstances, becomes the Achilles heel. Sure. You know, whatever I might be doing. Um, is there, you mentioned that there's different kind of like, Do you have like a special sauce or a system that you kind of modify the system for every client? And is that something you can describe? Yeah. So I, I would, uh, the short answer is that. Many strategic planning frameworks, they, at the core, are very similar. And so, ours is no different. You know, we're taking a look at, okay, what's the current state? Can we accurately describe how things are right now? Can we describe the environment that we're operating in? So, you know, that's, you had talked about the diagnostic up front. You know, a lot of times that's what we start with. Yeah, what's our market share in our region, whatever. Exactly. And, and we want to deal with facts. You know, we want to say, okay, let's get, let's get. The, the truth here, you know, with a capital T. Um, And then, so, so, it starts with those two things. And do we even have the information systems to provide it, right? Wow, this is such a big deal. Like, if you're a surveying company or an engineering company, do you actually know which engineers build the highest percentages of billable, potentially billable, sellable hours, and not? Or is it just kind of a mystery? And that, there are so many companies that, uh, we've come across, which, and, and I, and this is actually, For people out there who run professional services firms, you can almost breathe a sigh of relief and say you're not alone. There's so many companies that don't track, don't track utilization. They're just making sure that they cover their costs at the end of the year. You know, and they may say utilization, but it's not actually a big, um, management lever. Um, because they don't need it. And until... They do. And then they turn around and they realize, wait a minute, we've got a whole culture of, you know, free will and engineers and lawyers, you know, and it's like, Now the economy is shrinking and the total billables are down. Yeah. Yeah. And we, we need some more. What are we losing money on? And we need rigor. And now we're, we're putting rigor in a threat of revolt. Right. Because people are like, well, wait a minute, we haven't. We haven't needed to do that for the last 20 years. Yeah, why now? So, um, but that's actually a great example of something. I kind of scroll chased you there, so if you want to get back to the framework, that's cool. Well, it's, it's, it's the great example of something that we would want to pinpoint on in that, you know, those early stages of assessing what's the, what's the current state of the business. Because it's, it's easy to say, well, you know, here's our headcount and here's our revenue and blah, blah, blah. We actually want to get down even to what can you describe your business model? How, you know, how does the money flow through your operation? Where does it get stuck? Where does it, do you, you know, do you understand the different levels? Interviewing frontliners and mid level people and operations people and whatever. Yes. Oh yeah, absolutely. We want to, uh, that's one of the things we pride ourselves on is, is having really frank discussions. Uh, and, and in fact this just came up in a project the other day, you know, sometimes some, I don't want to say unfortunate, but like tough stuff can surface. Sure. Um, a lot, people are always, running into issues where they've got, let's say somebody who's a strong revenue generator, but culturally they're a total jerk. And it's like, what do you do about that? And it's much easier as an executive to turn the other, you know, turn the other way. And maybe everybody would do 30 percent better if you got rid of that one person that does twice as much as everybody. Absolutely true. And so, so the, the question. Um, and, and this is really, this is one of the more, I don't want to sound like a sadist or anything. This is the art part. Yeah. Yeah. This is the art part. But it's, how do you talk about that as a group? Yeah. With that, with that person? Yeah. Because let's say you and I were running a company and you know, we had others on the executive team here and I'm a total jerk and, and everybody knows it. And so they behave consistent with that. Like that's the tricky part. is that people are either censoring what they say or they're, they're designing their, their paths forward based on that, assuming, you know, that assumption or that, that truth. And so you're trying to put together a strategic plan. You got this donkey, you know, sitting there at the table. You can swear on this podcast. It's okay. We just put the E on there automatically. Okay, good. Um, but, but I think what's important to realize is that. It's not that this, you know, people want to think that these things happen in isolation, but they don't. If you have two or more people in a room sitting at a table trying to lead a company, that matters. And if you can't talk about it, then it runs you. You don't run it. And so that's one of the things we're also oftentimes. Brought in to help do is to, is to surface. Oh, they know there's a conflict somewhere. They just don't quite understand the nature of it sometimes and stuff. Well, and now you can see why. Part of what else, you know, the other part of what we do, that's the conflict around, around conflict resolution, but to, to stay with the, the, uh, the framework. Um, we are, so we spend a lot of time up front just kind of getting down to a ground truth and it's numbers, it's perceptions, it's, uh, you know, it's internal, it's external. Almost like a book report. Almost like a book report, but we don't like writing 90. Right. I was having fun with yesterday with a c o o of this large company and he was saying, he's like, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and they, they gave me the 95 page report and I asked, did you read it? And, you know, before he responded, I was like, no, you know, he was, and he goes, and no, they didn't read it. It's like, yeah, of course not. It's 95 pages There not enough time in the day for that. You know, I got too many other things to do. So, um, We're a highly visual firm in that regard because we think that the visual is gonna be more compelling. I mean, we, it's not that we don't write Yeah, some stuff, but we, we, but here's a pie chart that shows you how many percentage of your people think that the leader of their division is an ass, or, or an illustration. Or an illustration, um, or, or some sort of model or some sort of framework that, that, uh, will naturally lead to that conversation. And so, um, so we spend a lot of time. Getting to a, a solid shared perspective on those two things, what's the current state and what's the environment that's happening around, you know, cause there's all sorts of stuff inside the company and then all the external, exactly, exactly. We want to know what's going on with customers. We want to know what's going on with market trends. Industry, the world. Precisely. A lot of times geopolitics plays in or just national politics. Well and with. Gosh, all the stuff, frankly, like around energy freedom and stuff, like strategic planning, if you're a natural gas exploration firm or a pipeline building company or something, it's got to be tremendously challenging. It's, uh, it, gosh, did you know that? Did you? Did we talk about this before? No, I'm just thinking about where things happen and, and whatever, and, well, the, the thing I think about is, like, we got all this oil, right? Like, some of the old wildcatters think that we got a hundred years still left, at least, if not more in natural gas. And, like, there's all this carbon threat and, and climate change and the fires or whatever. And, like, the only way to keep people, at least right now, from getting to that oil and natural gas is with the threat, threat of force. Like. You'll have to kill people to keep them from that energy, at least over the next 20, 30, 50 years until we figure out something cheaper and easier. I used to have a much more clear, uh, sense of what I believed around energy, and I can't say that I'm all that clear anymore. I, before I was probably like, yeah, let's just do, you know, renewables. Solar panels are awesome. Right. And they are. Sure. Like, and that's, that's the thing is that they are as a supplemental at least, right. And even as a, an end destination or, you know, whatever combination of renewable energy. But I, I think as I have, uh, worked some in that industry, I'm by no means an expert, but, um, as I've gotten involved in, In that world, it's it's tough. It's tough because, um, there, it's hard to comprehend how deep this industry goes. And And how dependent we are on it, like even I, I thought it was like, Oh yeah, like probably have oil in them. Yeah. And we say like, everything's made from it, you know, there's sort of these platitudes and all that stuff. And it's like, no, it goes even deeper than that. I mean, it goes down to the way our governments are organized, the way our governments interact with other governments in the world. Like it is really fundamental. And you know, I just got little peeks at that. And so it changed. It's not that I don't. Say we gotta do something about, you know, the climate things are changing. I'm not a climate scientist, so I, it, it would be inappropriate for me to make any assertions or anything like that, but I buy it, you know? Yeah. Things feel different to me now. Yeah, for sure. North Dakota is a corn belt now, you know? Right. Yeah, exactly. So I, I, I'm not saying that, but I, I think, sorry to interrupt you. Oh. Go, go. Do you know about the, the Tonga Volcano eruption in 2022? You know, I think I saw you post something about this on LinkedIn. Yeah, but you didn't know about it before. But I didn't know about it, and you asked the question, How come we aren't talking about this? And it was, I, I don't know. Well, there's a, a gigantic volcano undersea off of the, like, in the middle of the South Pacific. And it spewed, like, a bunch. of water vapor instead of ash and soot and stuff, it was a bunch of water vapor. And there was, there's articles from the European Climate Council that say we could see a temporary two to 10 year, uh, increase of two to four degrees or something like that from this. And we're seeing it. The freakin Atlantic is boiling off the coast of Florida, and but nobody talks about Hunga Tunga, or whatever this volcano is. Right, cause it's Because it's not It doesn't fit the narrative of Yeah, yeah, sure. And, and, and that, again, it, it's, it's far more complicated to, because when you Well, actually, fair. I don't know much about it, so it I don't know. It, it could be I don't know. Yeah, it could provide an impact, or it might, it might make an impact, it might not. Um, I think Again, going back to what I was saying at the outset, it was like, I used to be much more clear about what I thought and now I'm like, I don't, it's, it's hard to come to a conclusion on something because it's such a dilemma. It's an ethical and moral dilemma and the dilemmas don't, and like, that's the thing is that there is no answer to be a dilemma. It would just be a problem. Right. But it's a dilemma. And so it pits Things that we value, you and I as individuals, and then us as a collective society. It pits things that we value against each other. And so... What, what's more important, you know, what's important in the short term, you know, maybe let's say, you know, U. S. power globally, or long term, you know, the existence of mankind. Right. And it's, uh, and again, some people might even hear me say that and say, well, duh, Sean, it's obviously existence of mankind. Well, and we don't know if the existence of mankind is actually threatened by climate change. The world's been here a long time. There was critters around the whole time. Mostly. You know, they might not be us, but I, I believe more in our, not to push back, but I believe more in our ability to adapt than I do in our global government's ability to, uh, effectively control this. without killing lots of people with intention. I do. So in that, in to that end, I do think that there's, um, how do I say this? Like, I do think there's an adaptability as, as species. Yes. And I also think that the, would I trust the government to be the one to navigate that? Uh, I don't, I don't think so. You know, we're having trouble getting potholes filled, you know, in different, different localities. Sure. Yeah, exactly. Or pick any other major city that's just so complex we can't wrap our arms around it. I, I agree in concept or in principle, but I know, I know, but I think there's some big drop offs in when you look at history and it's like, you know what, maybe we are just designed or intended to drop off, you know, I don't know, I don't know, and I can't go to Mars. Elon's going to take us to Mars and that'll be our next step and we'll throw the earth away and call it a day. Yeah, exactly. It's all dirty down there. Exactly. Yeah, we'll start speaking Martian. Well, and we can just go from planet to planet as we find them and get better ability and then, uh, just a disposable universe instead of just a disposable Earth. Yes. Which, it's funny you say, I hadn't really thought about it like that, but it's kind of like, uh, planetary consumerism as opposed to just, you know, consumers and consumers. Totally. Yeah, it's just a, it's just a. Sort of in a recycle bin. Yeah. Yeah. We'll, we'll take some stuff out of there. That's right. That's right. So, in conclusion, I, I, I have to sit with just being in a gray area, and I think some people get frustrated. It's like, well, Sean, we need to know your stand on that, and it's a. You know, it depends on, it just depends on the context. The context is decisive. So, where were we? If there's principles of strategic planning and stuff that you kind of follow. Yeah, yeah. And sorry to our listeners for chasing all those squirrels in your presence. But it was interesting, I think. Well, it's helpful because I think what's also, what I'm going to draw on later in this conversation likely is that notion of ethical and moral dilemmas. Yeah. Because I think that's probably... One of the biggest challenges that leaders of companies face today is there, you know, there's a set of them and it's really about navigating. Managers are good at executing plans. Leaders need to be thinking through how to guide them, you know, organize companies through those dilemmas. And so, um, but we can get back to that. The, uh, to round out the framework, just so we can. Oh, let's get off of it, but, um, we definitely start, we go really deep on those, those first two things. I'll tell you something that we spend a lot of time on that I think some strategic planning experts skip, and in my mind, it's a big miss and it's what's at stake. Um, and an example I use, I got a mentor who, um, you know, he, he's suffered some, he suffered a heart attack. Okay. Uh, and prior to that, he had been, um, Yeah, saying, Oh, I gotta, you know, I gotta lose weight. I gotta get healthy and then, but of course we're out to eat at a steakhouse and drinking red wine and eating red meat and, you know, all those things that you know not to do if you're concerned about longevity or I don't say longevity, but concerned about your health, especially heart health, your heart health, you know, and, um, uh, And then he had, you know, he had this moment in time and he, he told me, he said, you know, what became really clear is that what's at risk is my time with my grandchildren and something got put at stake. That's 500 per hour time right there. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And so suddenly he had a reason. It's worth changing everything about the way that you live in order to do it. It's no different with companies. There is, in fact, I would, that's probably the biggest challenge is if you, if you can't generate a reason to do something different. The status quo will prevail. It will continue to persist. Which is not a bad thing, by the way. Like, a lot of times people are making a lot of money, and sometimes the advice and guidance is just, hey, stick with this. Like, that's not, you know, like, let's tune a couple things up, like, you know, add some oil to the gears and stuff, and don't change. Because this is, this is a, From what we can tell, you're, like, excelling in your industry, you're delivering values to your customers, your employees enjoy it. You're living the lifestyle you want, you know, like this, all those things that, you know, it's like, let's not rock the boat. Um, but if you're, if you're up to rocking the boat, you know, if you want to do something different, you gotta have a reason that, that you, that is going to be strong and compelling enough that it brings others along with you. It's going to be painful for them. Like, it's painful for everybody to go through a transformation like that. And that's that notion of kind of change management, right? Yes. Like, uh, Allison Sebeck is one of our facilitators, and she worked at ProSci forever. You've probably connected with her since. I, I haven't talked to Allison, but I'm going to, I remember now you saying that, so she's going to get a note from me, Allison, if you're out there. Thank you. I'm not sure she's a listener. She's awfully busy, and I do run long sometimes, but... I'll introduce you. Yeah. That'd be great. That'd be great. But that's, she would probably be. Yeah. Getting people to want to change, whether you're a coach or, you know, at a weight loss clinic or in a business coach or whatever, I got to have the motivation and why. And people underestimate how, uh, strong willed, like there are probably some things, somebody did this thought experiment, uh, in a, in a workshop I was in once where they said, you know, there are probably some things on this planet where if somebody put a gun to your head and said, change this way. You would say, no, I'd rather die like truly, truly for some people that's it's that it can be that strong. Yeah, so that is an example of how strong willed people are. Yeah, and that is Pervasive inside of organizations and so for people who throw a dart out into the future and say, okay We're headed this way, but they don't back it up with something that's gonna bring people along Yeah. Bad news. So, how, like, what's the majority, I'm starting to think that strategic planning is more about like psychology and human understanding and emotional intelligence and relational intelligence and stuff than it is about revenue generation increases and. Which IT system to use and stuff like that. It, it's a both and, I wouldn't say it's either or. We, we do spend a lot of time talking about, okay, you know, how do we design systems that support, you know, operations and what's, how do we streamline your sales process. Right, right, right, right. That, that, it doesn't. How do we measure professional services, our utilization. Properly and easily. Yes. And get people to buy in and actually check in on their thingy. You, you gotta have your bits and pieces in order, you know, like you gotta have those technical components, uh, squared away. Like, it's, it's not an either or, but it's so often people are like, okay, I've designed the solution. And I, and I almost even saying this out loud, I sound like a trope of sorts, you know, like people forget about the people and it's like people forget about the people. And in, especially in the professional services world, I mean, when you look at, just look at all of the websites for engineering firms, consulting firms, uh, I mean, even outside of the professional services world, what, what do people say? Our people are our most important asset, you know, and it's, and, um, I think when that is authentically said, you can feel it. When it's inauthentically said, you also feel that too. I, uh, ran into one of my members today, Talia, uh, from Dutch Brothers. And Talia moved out from eastern Washington to work for the owner of the local, he owns like, I don't know, six or eight, nine Dutch Brothers locations. And she runs a lot of his operations and stuff. And my guest that I was at coffee with, After, after Talia left was like, man, people love Dutch brothers. Like the employees, I know like three people that work there and they all love it. It's like the best team and they got the best, it's like a cult almost. And they love them some Dutch brothers, you know? And like, that's what's that worth? Yeah, that a lot there. Sometimes I have been called, uh, or, or people have. Suggested or intimated that sometimes when things go really well, it occurs almost cult ish and it's like, yeah, actually you kind of want that. You need, you need people to be organizing themselves around. Um, what you're doing. Yeah. And in a way that's, I don't wanna say maniacal, but you know, that, that has this sense of loyalty and this sense of commitment. Otherwise, it's a, it's just leaves something on the table. It's a job. Yeah, exactly. which is not, and again, it's not a bad thing. Like sometimes I think when people talk about what's possible and what's available, it can kind of create this good or bad dynamic. Right. Right. That's not what I'm saying, it's just more like, what's gonna work based on what you're up to. So, like I just alluded to, sometimes the thing is, hey, keep it, let's not touch it. You know, let's tune, let's smooth out some edges, but you got something going here that's like, we don't need to worry about it. So, um. But, I would say, going back to your question, that's my angle on it. That's kind of your front load anyway. Right, exactly. I, I, yes. And you probably created workbooks for different things and stuff. Are you using anybody else's thing? Are you amalgamation of a bunch of different smart things you've read and learned? I lean heavily on a couple of different books. One that I'll highlight, just because this individual has made a big difference in my life, is a book called The Primes, How Any Group Can Solve Any Problem, written by Chris McGough. Chris Magoff is one of my mentors and he started the company that I worked for prior to stepping out onto my own. And in fact, he and I still work together today on a number of things. Um, he is a mad genius. There's no, uh, you know, mad with a capital M and genius with a capital G. Um, and the things that I have seen him do. Uh, in the most intense and complex of environments is nothing short of extraordinary. So I am grateful to have spent a good portion of my career basically standing in a shadow. Um, but that book, what's interesting about the book is he took group dynamics that many people know about. Um, like say, for example, the innovation adoption curve, um, which, you know, sort of states that like innovations really take root, not in the visionary consumer, but in the early adopter. So and and if you can take hold in that 13 percent of the population that's not, you know, they're not squirrels that are going after the next shiny thing. You know, they're, they're very thoughtful, they're very logical, they're very intentional about what they do. They gather a lot of information first. Exactly. And then they move. If you can, if you can take advantage of that group of the population and really connect with them around whatever it is that you're trying to do. iPhone. Perfect example. Perfect example. Um, then everybody else comes with it. So, so the, the mistake that leaders make is that, oh, we try and bring everybody along. And it's like, no, just bring this 13 percent of the population along. And they'll bring everybody else. They do all the work to bring everybody else. So in this book, I've got that with my chapters too. Like there's two, three, sometimes core members that if they left the chapter could be on shaky ground, but as long as they're there, most of the other people are sticking around. If that. So you know it, you live it. It's, it's that, it's that thing. So, so Chris has taken concepts like that and created visuals. Very easy to understand, very quick to master, visuals. Easy to communicate. Easy to communicate precisely and put it all into a book. So this book is like a picture book for leaders. You know, it's a reference book. It's not, it's not a, you don't read it from cover to cover. You just like flip open. Interesting. The primes. How any group can solve any problem. So I owe a debt of gratitude to Chris McGough for not only teaching me, but bringing me along. Yeah, for sure. On to a number of things. Um, so. You said there was a second book or structure or platform that you kind of used to. This one is, is far less, uh, far less interesting sounding, um, but it's, I mean, for somebody like me, and this is so funny, this is for somebody like me, I love this book. I think it's gripping, but it's called Managing the Professional Services Firm by David Meister. It's a textbook. But I read it and I, I just eat it up. I mean, it is, it is so, you know, he was a professor at Harvard. Yeah. I don't know if he's still alive or not. Um, he wrote The Trusted Advisor with Charlie Green, uh, or at least he was involved in the production of it. I think he's on it. Um, but, uh, he, he just nails, he nails it on the challenges of managing professional services for him. So I keep those two books. literally travel with them. If I'm going to a project, I bring them. So do you manufacturers or retailers or other firms like that, would you generally refer somebody else for those kind of strategic planning engagements or depends? Depends depends. There are some that I, I could have expertise in, but I mean, even to just hear my answer right now, Oh, it depends. It's like, no, don't, don't really hire you for that. Well, like I'm thinking about local think tank. I'm not a professional services firm. And some of the principles apply in terms of, uh, outreach, recruitment, uh, culture. Well, this is, so I think one of the things, not that I'm gonna hire you, you're probably way too expensive for me. Well, well, the, the interesting thing about your model is that it's a capacity issue. I mean, if we can model the. how the business actually works in terms of like, okay, what are the capacity limits and what are the activities that proceed those bottlenecks? Like I want to create a system. Definitely. And I say that not knowing anything, but just knowing that every, every project I walk into, The executive is a bottleneck in some form or fashion, not all like, not in every area or every respect, but in some of the big way, all the revenue generating ones, most of the operational financial, I commend you for your self awareness. But that's the kind of thing, you know, we'd, we'd create a visual, like a system model, like that we could actually follow the dollars in and out and then, and then it would also help us understand what are some of the transitions that are probably coming up as you continue to grow. What, what are like switches will flip and then all of a sudden what worked up until this moment and not going to work anymore. And you say, what the heck, this was my tried and true recipe and now it's not. At least 10 times in the last two months, I've been telling people stories or whatever, and I've said the phrase, you know, what got us here won't get us there. Yes. Uh, and, you know, we're, we're the dominant peer advisory firm in northern Colorado. We have probably half, maybe, of the paying memberships. And, like, my charisma is running thin. I don't know And I'm the primary sales. You're the primary sales person. And so you're coming up against some sort of limit, whether it's a personal performance thing or an organizational performance thing because of the inherent limits built into business models. Then, so what, what there would be to do is say, okay, well, let's make sure we understand our current stage. Like what do we can, can we clearly articulate the. And, and describe the phase that we're in, and then can we describe and articulate the phase that we're headed to next, and then draw the line between, okay. Um, so here it used to be a, you know, one on one call with, you know, to grab a coffee, lunch a couple of months later. Yeah, exactly. And now in this next phase, it's, you know, the role that you might play as a sales manager, you know, you might have people who are selling on your behalf. And so that creates or demands a whole new structure around revenue generation. That's completely foreign. It's probably all in your head right now and maybe on an Excel spreadsheet somewhere, you know, like. Almost working on it right now is kind of, uh, creating a flowchart for sales process stuff because I'm a terrible flowchart creator. Yes, right, right. But she's been watching me and learning a lot. Which is great because, uh, you know, one of the struggles that founders often have is the way that they do it is not necessarily scalable. Right. And then it creates all sorts of weird management dynamics, too, where you're saying, well, wait a minute. Hey, how come you're doing it that way? This is the way that I did it, you know? And it's like, it, it, it, it, it. totally creates a distance between you and revenue generation, which can be uncomfortable as you get other people involved. Suddenly what, you know, you had your finger on that pulse. Totally. You know, I can't even, yeah. Yeah. And then you start not sleeping at night and say, wait, where's the money coming from? And that guy doesn't sell the way he said he would. And, you know, there's a totally, well, and there's an interesting dynamic with, with loco in particular in that, um, You know, if I'm a commission driven salesperson for a local think tank, I think... Uh, anybody I meet that can fog a mirror would be a great member for local think tank. And the truth is, is maybe half of the business owners out there would really be a good fit whether they want to buy it or not. We spend a lot of time talking about incentives because in the behaviors that are motivated, sometimes leaders are surprised by what, Oh, unintended consequences of their incentives. And it's not a, uh, I'll tell you one thing that happens a lot too. Um, I'm sort of skipping ahead, but it's sometimes companies get so big that they they've, you know, acquired or grown or whatever, and they say, Oh, well, we'll have these different departments collaborate on projects, you know, or we'll have this person refer over to that person, you know, this cross selling phenomenon. Wow, man, you want to confuse your sales team, introduce the notion of cross selling. I mean, that will, people, so when I've got a project that I was working on recently, that was, people were at each other's throats because they were like, well, wait a minute. Wells Fargo got sued for like a billion dollars for selling Helox to everybody that didn't need Helox and different things like that. And the, the, the incentives of, of that whole thing, it's just wonky. And what looks good on paper or what sounds good in a meeting with your private equity firm in practice doesn't actually pan out. So it's a, um, It's a, again, I think the people who do it well, they, they've got, um, I don't want to say a straightforwardness, like, I don't want to... Authenticity. Yeah, I think there's just an intentionality and a clarity of what has been happening, what needs to happen, and, you know, how to handle when surprises pop up. You know, there's just a clarity to it all. And so, a lot of times that's what... What we see our role as is helping to bring some of that clarity. Yeah, with an objective perspective and a framework that can apply to their specific thing. Yep. So, uh, do you want to talk just a few minutes about conflict negotiation kind of stuff and tie that in? Well, you Or not resolution, not negotiation. It's a little I was thinking hostage negotiation. Hostage negotiation. Yeah, so it's a little bit of everything, you know, resolution, negotiation, transformation, um, as you can imagine. A lot of our, our projects deal with conflict, uh, you know, a company's ability or a group's ability to manage conflict is absolutely paramount to its success because you, it's not even that people have differing opinions. They are in complete, when you put a, an HR person and a finance person and a salesperson at a table. Their priorities and what they're trying to do are, like, it's an immediate conflict. The, the, the topic that comes to mind is... Public health versus economics. There you go. You know, in the COVID nation, the economists are like, What the hell are you doing? Some of them. It's... I mean, mostly not, because they all went to universities and they fell in line quickly, but... Sure, sure. But, you know, the medical environment is like, We have to do whatever it costs to prevent more people from dying. And... And so, you know, what you can see in that sort of how you're setting it up is a difference of priorities, a conflict of priorities. And so, so talk about that inside a company. So you got H. R. and finance. You got H. R., you got finance, you got, uh, you know, vertical one. Vertical two, you know, one product line, different product lines or services, you know, whatever engineering and surveying company precisely. And so when you get that, you always take the surveyor's side, you must've seen this before, but I can imagine. Yeah. So, you know, there's, there is a lot of conflict management and negotiation that happens within the strategic planning process. And I think when, uh, you know, if you're entering into that kind of endeavor and you think, you know, if somebody's. Telling you that it's going to be a smooth ride, you know, it's like, you might not be working with the right person. Oh, we could do this really easy. It's going to be great. Everybody's going to be really excited. And it's like run for the hills, you know, because you're, you're either, you know, your plan's not going to go deep enough and it's got, it's not going to deal with reality or it's just going to be a, like a fluff, you know, it's a fluff piece. And, and so I think if you're really doing strategic planning well, you're looking for conflict. Um, you want to seek it out. And then. And then, uh, and then deal with it, you know, and I, and so, so for us, and I've already started to allude to this, but, um, one of the, the principles for us is we, we, we don't take sides. We're not a good versus bad, right versus wrong kind of operation. Our, ours, our commitment is to what works and what doesn't. So you've got a plan, you've got a goal, and what you're doing is either working. Or it's not. And we just want to address whatever's in the way of it working or not. We want to take any kind of subjective assertion about, Oh, this person's, you know, right, and this person... That, it's actually not that useful in the context of, of getting something done. And so, um, one of the ways that we frame that up, and I've already alluded to this, is there's a series of dilemmas that groups face often. And there's, it's, uh, it's a collision of values, really, and this comes from a book called How Good People Make Tough Choices by Dr. Rushworth Kidder. And, uh, and I also have to give a shout out to Chris McGough, who really introduced this to me, and it shows up in his book, too. How Good People Make What Choices? Tough Choices. Tough Choices. How Good People Make Tough Choices, and, and what Kidder says is that, um, essentially, there are eight values. And they exist in four pairs. And so the values are short term versus long term, um, truth versus loyalty, justice versus mercy, and good for me versus good for all. Yeah. Or good for many. Yeah. And groups inevitably, like it's not, it's not like a, Oh, you know, we're not going to come up quite, it's like, no, inevitably they encounter the collision of those values all the time. And, and what we don't do as a society is a really good job of teaching ourselves or our kids or, you know, our families how to navigate those kinds of things because what we do. And, uh, so this one. is from, you know, Kidder gave a talk on YouTube. So you can see this. Uh, you know, he kind of goes through each of those and presents an illustration that really exemplifies what, uh, you know, what he's talking about. So one is like when he talks about truth versus loyalty. He tells a story about a Vietnam pilot that gets shot down and he knows what Uh, where, uh, his squad is, you know, he was, he was there flying in a, you know, uh, overwatch or something like that for this, this group of American soldiers gets shot down and gets. Captured. Right. And they're saying, if you tell us where your squad is or where these people are, we won't kill you. Yeah. And so it's tell the truth. Yeah. Or remain loyal to the squad. Yeah. That one also pits good for me versus good for the whole. Sure. Together. You know, and we don't have answers for these things. Yeah. Like, you know. I was thinking to myself, like, I'm more of a truth over loyalty guy until it comes to that. And then I'm like, good on that guy for taking that secret to his grave. Right. Exactly. I guess I pit my good for all above my truth one. Yeah. Because there's probably a stack rank in some of those too. And justice and mercy is the first one that came to mind when you, I knew you were going to get that one. Yeah. Do you, do you throw the book at somebody or do you give them a second chance? You know, what's the, what do you do? And it depends. And it depends. Right. And so, um, So the stance that we take is that it's not that anybody's good or bad. It's that they're stuck in a dilemma and they got, they got to figure out a way to navigate it. So that feels like a good time to transition to one of the, uh, main reasons I invited you in this podcast is some of the work you're doing with, with Haiti. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, um, I think let's just roll right into that. Sure. Like set the stage a little bit. Um, some people that. Listen, don't have the first clue about even the history of Haiti and stuff, but maybe describe what you're up to and then hit the backup button a little bit. I dunno. Yeah. So, um, so the, uh, gosh man, I don't even know how to start to describe this. The, um, so the long and the short of it is, I got a call one day from Chris McGough, uh, I was sitting in my basement and he calls up and he says, uh, Sean, you know, you're sitting down. I think we've, I think we've got a, uh, potential project here. That's like, we got to seriously think about it. And I was like, you know, okay, when is it like, you know, here I am thinking like, okay, historically we've only ever done as Goldman Sachs. Yeah, right. Exactly. Like, you know, we've done some big name companies, but it, but even those are, right. You know, not that one company is the same as the next, but a company is a company is a company. You know? And it's like, If they go away, somebody else will do their thing. Yeah. And, and, and, um, you know, companies all have similar characteristics. And so it's, it's, you've seen a few and you can start to recognize the patterns and that, that actually is what makes you valuable. Interesting. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, I like to say I'm not that smart, but I'm experienced. Yes, precisely, precisely. And so, um, so, it's hard for me to imagine a company calling me and me being like, whoa, no, you know. So exciting. Right, exactly. Um, but, you know, he prefaced it like, this is a big deal. And I was like, ooh, okay. Um. And so, he starts talking about, he says, I got a call out of the blue. I was, uh, on a, my bike, I was riding my bike, and, uh, phone rang, I, I picked up, and it was two, uh, Haitian gentlemen, and they wanted to know if I could meet, and I said, yeah, sure, I'd be happy to meet, and they're like, could you meet today? I was like, whoa! Today, right now, they're like, we're in Washington, D. C. for a limited amount of time, and we'd like to meet with you. And, uh, he went and met with him at a Panera Bread, he said he was still wearing his biking jacket. Right. Hopefully he had cool bike shorts, not the like, bulgy ones, but whatever. Um, and they, they went on to describe, uh, what amounts to is essentially is a, a unique moment in time. And so, for people who are not familiar with Haiti. And I need, I need to say, caveat, I'm not either, like, it's not like I'm an expert on Haitian history or anything like that, but the 60 second version I give is that Haiti is the only slave colony to ever revolt and maintain its independence. And so it has a very proud history of that. Um, as a result, you can probably violent like the people that own those slaves didn't go very willing. Very tumultuous. Um, it, it has led to, you know, reading interesting book about it written by a Haitian scholar. And they were talking about how for the first. basically 100 years, if not its entire existence, Haiti has sat in this place where it's been ignored because to actually acknowledge Haiti required some sort of admission of guilt or, um, you know, culpability on the part of nations that were that we're doing. France, Canada, the United States. And so it's, it's been, Haiti has sat in this context that is not very advantageous to its growth. There's been a lot of foreign intervention. Um, and then in, in having a lot of foreign intervention, there's been a lot of tumult inside the country too. So you can imagine dictatorships and monarchs and mad Kings and good Kings. And you know, there's just this one tribe gets funded to the tune of Lots of money to go, I don't know if they're tribes, but to beat up the other tribes or whatever and are there ethnic challenges or are they kind of mixed from an ethnicity standpoint? Huge racial divides in Haiti. Okay. Huge racial divides. And it's, it's a again, it's primarily people who have foreign heritage. So someone might have French background or you know, their, you know, their, their family tree might be you know, part sort of former slave and then part European or there's a lot of Middle Eastern influence in here. So, um, there's, there's a big, there's a big racial divide. Um, And it, and it comes down to skin color. Uh, like it would be in Brazil. It's, uh, or, or some of the other countries that's like sort of if you have darker skin, you're oftentimes in the lower class of lighter skin. You, you Even though it's a slave colony that revolted and was successful, you'd almost think that the darker you were. The more your cred would be in some ways in that context. Yeah, potentially. I don't know. I don't know. I can't, I can't really, yeah, I can't comment on that. But it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a deep seated, deep rooted challenge inside Haiti. Okay. And so, So they're panering up? Yes. Getting the, the matcha latte or whatever. Right, right. And so, so these, um, these gentlemen were from a non profit. And they had been spending the last few years bringing together these different groups, disparate groups from across Haiti because, uh, over the, you know, especially in modern times, i. e. the last 10, 15 years, Haiti's been plagued by Yeah. Yeah. Hurricane. Earthquake. I mean, it's just, uh, public health, um, cholera cholera outbreak, I remember. Yeah. And so it's just been, to which the average American goes, where's Haiti or what is cholera? You know, they don't even know. And so. Um, which was me, like I, again, I didn't know this stuff, I was completely, I was that person prior to this project, and so, um. Which is probably ideal in some ways. You didn't have any predispositions. Yeah, I don't have a leaning one way or the other. Uh, well. Actually, I don't want to say that. Well, you want peace and prosperity and success for this engagement. Exactly, exactly, exactly. Um, but, um, so anyways, they described all this work and they, they had, uh, I think what was really cool, this is another guy who's been pretty influential, even though he doesn't know it. I've just read a lot of his books and I don't even know how to say his last name. It's Adam Kahan or Kahaney. Um, he's a Canadian guy that got famous for. helping to foster peace in South Africa using scenario planning. Um, and so, uh, and it kind of guided the direction of the country post, you know, that whole conflict and change of, or transfer of power. And so he came in at the invitation of these two gentlemen, their nonprofit, which is called Cafu Lesbois, um, which is. Haitian Creole for the Crossroads of Hope. Um, and he came in and he ran this process to create these scenarios that these different groups in Haiti. So political leaders, government leaders... Yes, I'm listening just a little bit more from like what you told me as far as there's almost factions that... Yes. Jostle with each other through the courts and through the business. Right, right. So, so. What's, what's happened is, um, there's just not a lot of social, uh, capital that exists between groups inside of Haiti. And so there's a, um, there's a way in which, you know, um, you've got civil leaders or civil society, you've got academics, you've got, uh, political leaders, government leaders, and there's a, way in which, you It's just not very cohesive. Um, there's a lot of differing opinions about what needs to happen and what should happen, and it's a result of this long standing conflict. Basically, this history of, of, um, revolution and ongoing transformation, which has been pretty, pretty painful. So, like, when the new guys get in, and all the people that were in before are persecuted, and then... That's happened a few times. Yeah, exactly. That kind of ish close. Yeah, close ish. Do they have a president? So the pre Or a congress and stuff like that? So right now the answer is no. Really? There was a president up until, um, gosh, what was the date? It's August something of like 2021 I want to say. He was assassinated. And there hasn't been another president since. There's a prime minister. Okay. Uh, who has stepped into power, but has maintained power extra constitutionally. Uh, so there's like, you know, there's all sorts of these strange dynamics, uh, How do you even hold a proper election and get people to buy in? And right now the answer is you don't. Right. You don't. Um, and it just hasn't happened. Um, and so anyways, these two gentlemen had, Had done a lot of work with Adam Kahaney to do the scenario planning, and they came to this conclusion that said, Hey, you know what? We've got a lot of potential here, but, um, we're actually missing the input of a very important and critical sector. And that is And so, in addition to all of this tumult and, and, you know, just unfortunate natural disasters. From a governance standpoint and a disaster standpoint. And a disaster standpoint. One of the things that happened was there's a dictatorship back in the, it was a father and son dictatorship, the Duvaliers, Papa Doc and Baby Doc. Yeah. They ran the country from, you know, late 50s to the early 80s. And, Um, during that time, a lot of the formal connections between the private sector and the, you know, the government in power were severed. And so there were, um, you know, things like, any kind of... Um, you know, aid or sort of, uh, public good endeavor by the private sector was seen as a threat to power. And so, so people were murdered, you know, they, they were taken out. Um, you know, as you can imagine, lots goes on behind the scenes and it's not really my place to say what it is and what's not, you know, that's not, not really my, uh, Uh, you know, I don't have expertise on ethics scholars, right, exactly. Um, but, you know, there were people who were in power that wanted to stay in power and, um, you know, groups and, and families that had been longstanding, you know, power players and they, they wanted to maintain that as sure, you know, and so, um, a lot of times people would go to great lengths to maintain that power behind the scenes. Sure. Um. Uh, you know, and of course it's, you know, who you're in bed with or who you're, um, partnered with. You know, it's just kind of like a general air, air of cronyism. Uh, yeah. It's kind of well, and not to transition back to like the South Africa topic, but the big question at that time, if you're like. Like the South African farmers were some of the wealthiest of the world and they were like well if we give up power You're just gonna take our farms and wreck them or something and I wasn't the one that enslaved you or separated us I'm just a farmer. I live out here in the sticks. Yeah. Yeah, and that's Ultimately, unfortunately, that's kind of what's mostly happened is the, the nationalization of that industry and, and South Africa doesn't really farm anymore. Yeah. Yeah. It's certainly, certainly how it played out over there. And I, and I think there's some of that that happened in Haiti too. I'm sure. There was a whole, again, this is coming from a, um, a very fascinating The Aftershocks of History about Haiti, which I highly recommend if anybody's interested in, in the history of Haiti, um, The Aftershocks of Haiti. Of history. Uh, sorry, The Aftershocks of History, History of Haiti. I had to look up exactly what that title was. Okay, we'll figure it out. Yeah, but it's Aftershocks is in, is in the title. Yeah, we'll Haiti, you're going to find it. Aftershocks in Haiti, the book, it'll be the first, the first thing. But, um, you know, they talked about, uh, again, there's, um, you know, as they were going from this. being a slave colony to a, you know, open society. Yeah, a nation. There were all these questions about, well wait a minute, how does it work? I'm the child of a slave and a Libyan that moved here 50 years ago. Where do I fit? And so, so there were all sorts of schemes and programs and And, you know, they worked the way that they worked. Like, again, it's not for me to say whether it was right or wrong. It's just, it's just how it happened. Yeah. Well, and the United States and a lot of other European nations punished Haiti by mostly cutting off economic relations with them. Haiti was not recognized as a, uh, You know, by the United States for years after, I mean, decades after its existence. Um, and so, uh, and, and then frankly, you know, there's this whole thing almost worse than Cuba in some ways. Like we tried our best to wreck Cuba and I'm not saying I'm not defending Castro or anybody else, but like. You're going to have bad outcomes, you know, play stupid games, win super prizes, as Ben Shapiro would say. It's definitely interventionist, you know. Um, but, uh, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, France, you know, in, in, in, again, Because it was a French, It was a French colony. Slave colony, basically, or a colony, but with way more slaves than, Not right precisely and so when you know France came back and whatever tried to take it back And they weren't able to and so then they said they basically exacted this debt. They said okay fine You'll buy your way out of this you know and it was at the time I don't know the numbers, but it was just this extraordinary amount of money which, which tanked the country because, well sure, you got this huge mortgage. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The lesson being, tell friends to pack sand, but then they got world banks and different things like that in national stages, right? Yeah. So there's all of these things that happened in the history, in the history that have left these long tentacles. Traumas. Yeah, that's a good word for it. It's just these long tentacles that influence how things operate today. Um, what. is, uh, I want to be careful how I say this, the, what has happened is that the situation has gotten so bad. It's gotten so bad. And this is, um, uh, I, you know, when I first got in, I was like, Oh, cool. You know, what a, what a great project, but I tell you, I've had a personal, like, there's, there's some stuff that I read about this and it's like. Whoa. You know, this is, this is really serious stuff. But, uh, it's just... And it's dilemmas. A lot of it's dilemmas, probably. A lot of it's dilemmas, but a lot of it, too, is just like, man, it's, it, I don't even... why does it have to be like that? Why does it have to be like that? That's, I think that's the thing that sucks about it. It's just like, why does that, why? But, um, it's gotten so bad that even, you know, what semblance of, you know, sort of overt and on the table... Or over the table way of getting things done, like that collapsed a long time ago, but now even the behind the scenes that, you know, behind closed doors way of doing business has collapsed too. So there's really a vacuum. Like you can't go get a business license and you can't even talk to the mob about getting a license, but somebody's going to put you out of business if you compete with them because they're across the street or down the block. That's basically it. I mean, it's, it's gotten to a point. a point where it's just brute force. I mean, you have these mobs of people who are battling other mobs of people and they're burning people. I mean, it is, it is really, really, really bad. Um, and there's no, there's no one person in control. Like there's, there's a sure there's a prime minister, but. The 90 percent of the capital city, Port au Prince, is controlled by gangs. And even within the gangs, there's... And those gangs are probably ethnically informed and... Or at least neighborhood, neighborhood, you know, informed or, um... Interesting. You know, there might be special interests at play. I mean, there's a lot of... You know, one thing too is that there's a lot of things that happen in Haiti that, um... There's just a lot of outside influences in that place. You know, and... Well, yeah, for... 100, 000, you can do a lot of things in Haiti, probably. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, that's not funny, it's terrible and tragic. And, you know, a hundred grand goes a long ways. Right. Right. And there's bad people in the world. Yes. And I think that's the... They want to smuggle drugs and do different things and whatever else. There's arms trafficking, there's human trafficking, there's... Yeah. There's, uh, yeah, drug trafficking, all that stuff. And so, um, so what has been interesting... I don't say interesting, you know, I'm always so sensitive about how I talk about this because I don't really know how to talk about it without... Trivializing it, you know, um, and, and I certainly don't want to do that. Um, or, or, or make it seem like it's something it's not, you know, like, Oh, there's this great future possibility. It's like, nah, it's not, it's not really that either. It's just, um, well, yeah, it's a dilemma. It's just a dilemma. It's really messy getting out of it. Yeah. So going back to these two guys at the Panera, uh, they said, um, we have. Uh, a unique moment in time, basically this private sector, which has historically been very fragmented, if not antagonistic towards each other. Um, we think that if we were to extend an invitation to some of the major players in the private sector, that they would come to the table and start talking about, Hey, how do we coordinate? Yeah. And you know, how do we work together to get ourselves out of this mess? Yeah. As you can imagine. It's like hitting the five cartels of Mexico together. Yeah, I don't have to try to have a peaceful and prosperous, but they're not cartels. Yeah, I wouldn't, but they have that much disdain for each other in some ways or whatever. There's definitely some pretty fierce competition down there. And, um, but it's gotten to be such an existential, uh, kind of, kind of environment that. That there's really no, no other choice than to collaborate with people that you've been working against for, for so long. And so, um, you know, they said, we think we can do this and we're looking for somebody to guide us, to be our guide. And, um, so, you know, I'm on the phone listening to Chris. Tell me all of it. You know, he's relating this and he said, so I told him I said, well, I'm retired, but I know a guy Right, that's what I was thinking. This is after his heart attack, right? Like, oh man, he's like, listen, you can walk away from it. You don't have to get involved, you don't have to, but if you're interested, you know, this could be kind of a trajectory. Fascinating. a trajectory altering kind of. So what's that engagement look like? How long have you been engaged? Yeah, so the, the, the bulk of it, so it's been since middle of last year. Um, and the bulk of it has been thinking about how do you get a group of, I don't want to say sworn enemies, a, uh, Uh. And that's all I meant by the cartels. Not that you're doing bad, terrible things. Yeah, right. It's just that you're at loggerheads. Right, right. With each other. You know, you are hyper competitive with. It's, it's a group of business leaders. I mean, it's, I think we have, um, what amounts to like 66 percent of the GDP represented in the room. Wow. Which is not big, you know. Right. Like proportionally it's huge, but in, you know, relative to the United States or other countries. But Otterbox would be like super big compared to any one of those just about. Right. Exactly, exactly. But so we have 66 percent of the GDP represented in the room and we it's, it's, uh, well, it kind of spans the spectrum of the, you know, the upstart, uh, you know, entrepreneur, what is the actual industry? Not that that Really matters. I mean, that's kind of, that's the big, is there sugar production and stuff, I assume? No, it's, it's all not that. So do they have water? Uh, barely. Not really. The big thing for them is, is soil erosion. They have deforested Oh, so much of the country. And so now the soil has eroded and, and then they've, they've overtaxed what does remain So there's, right, I mean, it's, it's really, if you've got good soil, you're gonna pay the price for that now. Yeah. Oh gosh. So, so there's no standout. Uh, industry right now. They don't have a competitive advantage per se. No, uh, I mean, not that I know of. Tourism's tough. Yeah, tourism. There's a lot of competition in that marketplace. Right, exactly, exactly. Too many kidnappings and deaths and stuff. Yeah, there was, I don't know if you saw, but there was a, uh, an American, uh, I think it was a mother daughter duo that was kidnapped recently. I didn't see it, but it doesn't shock me. I mean, those conditions are right for them. The interesting thing about kidnapping, again, not that kidnapped or anything like that. But, um, is, it is, it's, uh, it's one of those things where it's a business, you know, it's one of the few ways to make money. And so some groups, I just got a billion, two each for five. Yes, that's right. But it's a, it's a, um, you could have no comment on that. There's a, um, you know, I don't mean to like. Sound coy or anything like that. It's just, I'm, I'm, I myself, I'm trying to figure out what's okay to talk about and what's not in general, not even just here on this podcast, but just in general, um, so, uh, yeah, my silence is not trying to like create intrigue or anything like that. It's, it's, it's genuinely like, I just don't know what to say. Um, but the, the point being, I, uh. You know, kidnapping such a business down there that there are groups that do kidnappings. They have like whole facilities It's like a hotel that they operate and they bring you in. They feed you. They ask you what menu Afghanistan, right? You can't just like burn all the poppy fields or you'll starve all the people that raise poppies for the drug dealers that send poppies You know, whatever Opium out of Afghanistan? Well, it's, it's, it's ish. It's, it's like that, it's, it's even worse. Well, it's also like, um, you know, in the, in the industry of kidnapping, if you, uh, It, you know, your asset is the person and if you sort of somehow mishandle or, you know, uh, accidentally, um, you know, off the person, that's a lot of money that you've just, you know, lost. And so it, it's, it's a hospitality industry in a strange way almost. And again, I. Well, I almost want to octopus that because I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to come across as, uh, cold. Yeah, cold. Yeah. Well, you don't. Yeah. It's, uh, Octopuses are a safe word for listeners if this makes it to the final cut. Yeah, yeah. Um, so anyways, it's, it's this. It's this basically, I mean, when you think about, so going back to the whole premise of, of the work, they've got to align their, their private sector. Yeah. Um, and for, and I was in the middle of saying, like, it spans a spectrum of sort of the, the entrepreneurial upstart who's created a business from scratch. So this isn't just conflict resolution, this is strategic planning for a country. In, in a way, for the private sector of a country, yeah. They're trying to think through, how do we... Uh, navigate this crisis that we're in. Yeah. You know, crisis with a capital C. Do they like the Prime Minister? Is he there? Um, you know, I, or they're gonna figure out what the private business is like first. I, I couldn't, I couldn't say specifically whether there's pro or, or, or against, I mean, everybody still maintains their own personal, you know, it's like us, like who are you voting for? You know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't know. Um, but there's a, um, I think what, what. It has been interesting to see about this group is a commitment to, uh, structure and process. You know, for some people, I think the, um, the absence of regulation and enforcement and oversight has been seen as an advantage, you know, it's like, Oh, how do we take advantage of this? I think for other people, it's been sort of a, just a necessity to play along because if I don't, then I, you know, and, and again, that creates these dilemmas again. You know, and so how do you, and it's really a, it's a, it's truly a prisoner's dilemma, you know, how, how do you help a group of, of businesses navigate what amounts to as a really complicated, complex prisoner's dilemma? Yeah. And so, um, I, uh. Yeah, so that's what, that's what you're doing. That's what I'm doing down there. That's what I'm doing down there. That's crazy. Have you been down to Haiti? Not yet. No, I've been invited a number of times, um, but I, um, you know, I, I can't find a, uh, knowledgeable or, or, Um, relevant perspective, meaning like if I talk to the State Department or if I talk to a security firm or if I talk to, like, I can't find anybody that says, yeah, yeah, good. Here's how we do it. Yeah, it'll be fine. Just do it like this. Everybody says, don't go there. And there's there and it ranges from like, don't go and nice. Talking to you, you know, if you do or, or you know, more emphatic, please don't go, please don't go, please. Like, yeah, it would be suicide almost if you actually go down there in person, whatever. Right, right, right, right. So there's a, um, uh, yeah, I just, the, the other thing, and this is the, the business, the business side. How much do you think you'd, they could get for you? kidnapping thing? I don't even wanna, I don't even wanna, okay. Sorry. That's rude. I don't even, yeah. Take a guess. Um, but the, uh, You know, from a business side of things too, I think it's like how, you know, what I wonder a lot about is like, how does a business operate doing this kind of thing? Or if you were to take a group down there, you know, what about the liability? You know, what, what do you become, there's all sorts of administrative things that, um, you know, the firm's just not set up to handle either. Like I'm not, I'm not a, I'm not a. Um, Adrenaline Junkie in that regard. I'm not trying to go to these places. I'm not like a war journalist or something like that. You want to live for a long time and have children and whatever. Yeah, I got aspirations. Like I love Fort Collins, you know? I like being here. So, I'm, uh, I'm happy to be here. Um, I do hope one day to go. Because I think that... I think when you get involved with something and you start to care about it and you start to really root for what's possible, it is a, um, you know, it's, it's Uh, it's almost like a goal, like, you know, having this vision of, uh, being able to That could be your why as a strategic planning and conflict resolution firm. Yeah, exactly. And I, and I think you, I think as a practitioner, you gotta be able to tap into that. I think there are some times where you can come in and you can deliver that experience or that, that, that, that expertise and you don't necessarily have to get bought in, but I think there are other times where it's, it's needed to, to really power something. So, you've said we a lot when you talk about Um, It seems like it's you and, like, some contractors and different things like that, mostly. Is there other WEs, like, that are in your office, or do you have an office, or your home based business? I keep it pretty light. I keep it pretty light. The, I, I always work in a team. Always, always, always, always, always. Even if it's just a solo assignment, you know. Say, oh, Sean, come on, you know, come on over and help us do the... What you might not see is that there's a team behind me. Um... And it's not like it's hidden, you know, it's a, it is explicit in the, you know, on your website, but, um. Uh, but I do keep it light. So I've made, so another challenge, and this is almost going back to the first half of the conversation, um, that many business leaders faces, whether or not they want a lifestyle firm or a scaling firm. Sure. And the, the big... Trip up is that people want to scale and then operate as a lifestyle firm. I'm living that right now. Yeah. How did you know? Yeah. And so, um, fortunately because prior to jumping out on my own, I had so much experience navigating that dilemma. I can be very clear that for now, for this chapter of. of my professional career. I'm operating a lifestyle firm. So I want to, my motivation is to have as low overhead as possible. So I don't, I don't have any employees, but I have subcontractors that I work with all the time. Well, you have a huge network. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, um, so I'm drawing on expertise from all over. Uh, for lots of different things, whether it's content expertise about particular industries or particular topics or project management expertise to help me. Just doing the things, right? Like if you're going to do a big poll, a survey of employees of an engineering firm and figure out how many of them actually. Like being part of this new division, or I mean, whatever. There's just work to be done. Yeah, yeah. You just, you gotta have some hands on deck that you can, you can bring in to help just get it done. And so, um, yeah. So you, diagnostic is mostly you then, um, generally you get help for that. Even I can help, but I just, in this, what is the status now? So I've been fortunate. Uh, you, you know, I've worked with some really great people along. Uh, along the way, and we have just stayed in each other's orbit. So, the group, the group that I work with, nobody's new. We've worked together for years, and under different umbrellas at times even, you know, like, there's, it's just. It's, uh, we've just stayed close to each other, so I like that, and especially, again, in this very intentional, lifestyle, business, time of my life, I couldn't ask for anything more than that. So, like, you joined this Fort Collins Chamber of Commerce, so, and there's some regional firms and stuff, was that more about connecting with the community than with potential customers? Or would you like to connect with those 2, 5, 10, 20 million dollar companies around here for those kind of engagements? Yeah, so, the, it's funny, if Chad's listening to this, he's like, oh! Maybe he didn't join. Yeah, Kurt, you've made a... Sean may be orbiting the Chamber of Commerce, but he hasn't joined yet. And, um, that, uh... Um, so that, that is the ultimate intention is to get more involved into the, the community. I had had a, um, so I live over by Beavers, uh, across the street from my neighborhood. Yeah. Okay, good. So we're, we're neighbors then. So, um, and I love Little. I don't know if you like Little, but I, Love Little. I don't make enough money to go to Little very regularly, but I love it when I go there. Sorry guys. Well, it's, it's, it is a, it's just, it's great. Yeah, I agree. I think the food's great. I think the atmosphere's great. I heard they just took over the old The Indy street bar location. I, I have Next door grill thing. I, I'm scared for them. I, I'm, I'm hopeful. Godspeed. Yeah, I'm hopeful too. I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. But that's a big place with a big rent check and I know, I know. I mean, it's Primo property. Oh yeah. That's Primo property. Yeah. Um, may, may they be super successful. I hope so. Yeah. I mean, I hope so. I hope so.'cause again, their food's great. Their food's great. The atmosphere's great. Yeah. You know, I've gotten to know some people who, who work over. I just think they're, they're all awesome. Agree. And so, um, There's, there's one woman who works there who, uh, on days that she's not working at Little operates a coffee truck or coffee trailer. And, um, and I'm gonna give her a plug actually,'cause I think she's so cool. So it's Mad Dog and she runs Mad Dog Coffee. And on Monday we, Monday through Wednesday, she's at well-Fed Farmstead on Vine. Oh yeah. And, uh, on my, my, on my, uh, teammate Alicia, who's not here today, her husband works at. Oh, cool. Then she might I think Mad I'm sure they know each other. What's cool about Mad Dog's Coffee is she's a total nut about coffee. Yeah. You know, it's like, man, she's Well, that's where Harbinger started. He had a little cart in the basement of the freakin annoying, boring building downtown. Which I think is Jonathan, if you're listening, cheers. Yeah, Jonathan, yeah, okay. Well, it's I don't wanna Gosh, now I feel like I'm split. Are we rooting for Jonathan or Mad Dog? Well, Mad Dog, because Jonathan's got two locations. I mean, he's rolling it, obviously. Yeah, he's made it. So, um, So anyways, I had this realization, because I, I, I, uh, professionally, I'm in a bit of a dilemma, you know? Much of my work has been corporate up until now, and then I got the introduction of this international stuff, um, And, uh, I'm having the experience of loving Fort Collins, like Fort Collins is a really special place. I grew up in False Church, Virginia, False Church City, Virginia, which is a two square mile incorporated city surrounded by Fairfax County and the District of Columbia. Wow. But it had this beautiful small town feel that I didn't realize I was looking for until I got to Fort Collins and was like, whoa, it's here. Uh, and so... When I heard about Mad Dog starting her coffee truck, I was like, oh, let me go check it out, you know, and As I was just saying like she's a real geek about coffee Like I I'm like as she's pouring she's kind of telling you what is going on and what she's in I'm learning so much about coffee. I'm loving it. And so One day I was on my way back to the house, uh, after getting coffee in the morning and it was like I just had this epiphany about how important lo local is. Yeah, yeah. It's, cause like, as much as I, you know, it might be cool or I might have an aspiration to be working on an international scale. It actually impacts my life a hundred times more that Mad Dog opened this coffee truck around the corner from my house. Yeah, yeah. Like, that's what makes a difference in my life. Yeah, yeah. So, um, I just had this, I just got overcome by this, like, whoa, wait a minute. And I started looking around, I see all these places I go, like Little, or like Vado, Vado downtown. Vato's, yeah. Yeah, you know. Or whatever. Um, there's, there's just. There's so many shops and restaurants and stores and businesses that I interact with here in Fort Collins that are only in Fort Collins and that I think make Fort Collins stand out and I know many people, I'm one of those people that's new to Fort Collins that people are probably like, Oh, we don't need any more new people, you know? And it's like, shoot, well, well, here I am. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. Well, and like I had a vision maybe 20 years ago, not quite that, but where maybe I could have like a small ownership stake and also be a consultant advisor for many businesses. Um, and I think there's potential room for that, especially if you can bring some cash to the conversation to buy your stake and not just earn it or whatever. Um, And I, I just wasn't smart enough for that, but you might be, um, so, so anyway, if you're looking at a pivot, I was wondering where that was going. I was like, let's see that. Seems smarter than me. I don't know. Well, I, I think it's kind, I think it's kind of the, um, So I just was struck by this experience that this woman who took a risk, I mean, it's a huge risk to start something. Oh, yeah. And especially... Even a little trailer like that is probably five grand or something by the time you get it open. Yeah, and, and, you know, when you're, when you're first getting started, every dollar counts. Sure. And so it's like, you know, at that stage, you're, you're especially, um, What's the word I'm looking for? Like precarious, you know, and so, um, but I, I, I was just so grateful that she decided to take that leap and like I said, I started to see that all around me in Fort Collins. And so I was like, gosh, well, I should get plugged in. Like, I, I don't even know if there's a, uh, a gig for, you know, for me here in Fort Collins. I have no idea. And, uh, you know, I'm open to it, but it, that's not why I was doing this. It's just more like, you'd be qualified as a builder. Uh, member for Loco Think Tank, even though you're super smart already, but you're only one brain. I'm only one. Yeah, and it's nice to have some other brains around you on a regular basis. You know, not just when you bring them in for a project or whatever, so. Alright, we can talk. Know that we can talk more. okay. Um, I want to call a... Quick break. Sure. And then we'll come back and jump in the time machine. Great. Excellent. Alright. Cheers. You've had a quite a bit of tequila already. I know. I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand up and be like, whoa, Well thanks for drinking tequila with me. It's been a little while. Oh cool. Mostly people would rather have bourbon or red wine, so, well, I was following your, you said it. I was like, you know what, that sounds really good. Why not? Yeah, why not? Tequila, let's do it. I think there's never. Well, there's lots of good reasons why not tequila. I think tequila is having a bit of a renaissance. I don't know if you've had that experience, but it was not on my radar until a few years ago. Yeah, no, for sure. All of a sudden, people are like, Oh, did you know that there's, you know, different styles? I didn't. I do now. But I, you know, then I was like, what? I thought it was just, uh, Gasoline. We had, uh, we just celebrated the fourth anniversary of our Builders chapters last July. Cool. So just a month ago. Um, and they, uh, we had Suerte Tequila sponsor, and we did a tips, tacos, and tequila. Event where we brought in tacos from, uh, from a local catering shop and business tips from yours truly and then tequila from Suarte as well as a little tequila tour. Cool. Cool. And, uh, so yeah, there's some tequila built into the, the heritage of Loco Think Tank. Yeah, it's part of the DNA. Yeah, exactly. I got tequila in my DNA. Yeah, yeah, that's great. So, uh, that was fun. Uh, that was one of the more... squirrel chasing and rambling, but also educational and, and interesting and philosophical conversations I've had in a while. We're going to jump to the time machine and figure out who Sean is really, and you know, what it was like growing up surrounded by Washington, D. C. That's got to be fascinating just in its own self in some ways. So, um, let's jump in. Boop boop boop boop. Uh, you're a kindergartner. In False Church City, is that what it's called? Yep, False Church City. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, were your parents already there for a while? Were they government stooges too, or? Yeah. What's the setting? Give me some background. Uh, so the setting is, uh, False Church City. Um, so I am 9th generation False Church City. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the family has been in that area for a really, really long time. That's like what, late 1700s? Yeah. Oh, something like that. Maybe even earlier. The Revolutionary War? Yeah, yeah. Really? Wow. I don't really know the... Uh, I don't know the exact years, you know, it's kind of just always, but, uh... Right, they were the guys that pulled the strings that got Washington, D. C. put right there. Sure, I'm sorry. I'm just kidding. You know, and you saying that's making me realize, like, I probably ought to take a look at it. It'd be worth looking into. Yeah, it's something I've always said, but, um, you know, never really investigated. Yeah. But, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's probably plenty to investigate in that regard. So, that's why I was born and raised in False Church City. the family just always been there basically such fun following the. Seven. It was something like that. And so, uh, yeah. So foster city was great. I, I were whoa, actually let me rewind. I didn't realize how great false Church city was until I was older. Right. Um, and looking back, it was, it was, it was well like Esplanade to park. When you visit very like. That's amazing. Right. People that grew up in Estes Park are like, Oh, it's so isolating or whatever. Yours is different than that. Yes. It's the same phenomenon. And, um, but I, I, uh, in looking, in looking back and reflecting writ large had a, just a pretty ordinary and, um, fortunate. I mean, I didn't have any major, you know, I went to a, uh, a, you know, pretty well known private school, you know, Catholic school. Okay. Um, so that's what A well known, you want to share? It was St. James. Okay. You know, it was a blue ribbon state. you know, or National Blue Ribbon School or something like that. Lots of, in that area, as you can imagine. All the super smart Catholic kids go there. Yeah. And even, And, or just rich ones, they don't have to be smart. Yeah, privileged is a good word for it, yeah. Because I wouldn't say, Um, compared to some of my neighbors, you know, I mean, I always had things that I wanted, but uh, um, I, I had to work at a young age. My, my folks for various reasons were like, Sean, you're just going to be doing, you know, doing things on your own, which in hindsight, I'm very grateful for. I think it's become a pretty, pretty big part of who I am and how I, how I do things. Self reliance is a lot better than not. Yes. Yeah. And that's, that's, um, You know, I've just been industrious. I think you'd have too much of it, like everything. Right, right. Well, that goes back to that lone wolf. That's the shadow side of it. But, um, I've been very industrious. So what's the setting? You got siblings? Uh, are your folks, uh, business owners? Yeah, so my, um, so I have a brother. He's eight years older than me. Oh, wow. Yeah, so there's a little bit of an age gap. My parents are, uh, they were together, continue to be together. Cool. They've stayed intact, and they were great parents. Justin, my brother, and I often joke that he had different parents, you know, as the older first kid, compared to who I had. 100%. So, yeah. Me and my next two siblings got crappy old used cars, and Dad got... Or my youngest brother got dad's three year old or five year old brand new pickup. Yes, yeah. And so there were plenty of stories exactly like that, you know. So you were, you had a lot of freedoms and different things. Yeah. You were kind of over it with actively raising and, you know, just kidding. That's, well, that's kind of. You can go get a job. That'll keep you out of trouble. It was kind of it. It was kind of it. The things that were not kosher for Justin suddenly became, you know, regular occurrences for me. Um, but I, yeah, I was a pretty good kid. I mean, I was, well, I think it depends on... As far as everybody knew. Yeah, as far as everybody knew. And, and maybe there's a parent or two out there that if they were to hear that would be like, well, I, you know, I had to disagree on that one. But, um, for the most part... Yeah, I believe it. Yeah, I was, I was pretty much a, a, a rule abider. Um, my, my schooling was, I, I was reminded of this recently. Like school was... pretty easy up until a certain point and there was a, uh, a fork in the road for Um, regular classes and advanced classes and what was kind of secondhand suddenly in the advanced courses became a little bit trickier. So I had to navigate a little bit of that. Yeah. You were in the lower half of the advanced courses, whereas you were easily in the top 20 percent or 10 percent or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that was, that was a bit. It's an interesting dynamic to navigate. It is. I think it's, it's had an interesting impact on how I view effort. Um, because I, I think we have these moments in our lives that, uh, um, that I've been waking up to that, you know, there are these decisions that we make as kids about something that happens. And then that decision dictates how we live our life up until it. The moment you realize in adulthood change your path. Yeah. You don't even realize that there's something to change, you know? And then, and then it becomes apparent to you and you go, whoa. So that was a moment that was recently, you know, brought to my awareness of like, oh dang. That is interesting you share that. Yeah, sure. So the, um, it was in, uh, this particular moment was fifth grade. Uh, actually it was the summer between 5th and 6th grade and I had been tapped to go into this advanced, you know, math track, which again, like I was saying, prior to that point, things were super easy, um, and then all of a sudden this course, you know, again, I can't remember all the details, but it was, yeah, advanced math, whatever it was, Um, but it took a year, a year's worth of math and condensed it into four weeks or five weeks or something like that. And um, that pace, I just was struggling to keep up with. So within, uh, uh, a few days, you know, letter comes home from school saying, Hey, Sean's probably not a good fit for, for advanced math. And I remember my mother saying like, No, he's gonna, we're going to keep him in, you know, it was, uh, um, she was just adamant about it. And so, well, you know, I had to, I had to go to math at school, summer school for the first four hours of the day. And then I spent the next four hours in the living room, you know, with my mom going over whatever it was. And she was good at math and whatever. Well, it was fifth grade. Yeah, I would hope, you know, whatever it was. So, um, yeah, but, but it translated that effort it turned into achievement. Well, actually, actually, I would say it was in a sort of a counterintuitive way. Um, I, I painted this shadow on things that I had to try hard on because I got dinged because I was really struggling and trying Harding. So I got this dinging for struggling, trying hard. Yeah. And whereas I was very much rewarded for things that were easy. Sure. And so when I started to reflect back on my life, you know, this just came to like my Yeah, yeah. Field of vision maybe a few months ago. Well, it's the nature of all things, right? Like the reward is in the doing the hard things kind of, and the growth. Well, that's where the growth is. I wholeheartedly agree, and it's brought up this whole notion of like... But sometimes you get punished for doing the hard things, actually. No good deed goes unpunished. So anyway, I don't want to keep interrupting. Tell me about this... Well... epiphany of sorts. Well, so that was a, that was a, uh, a moment for me where I realized like, Oh, interesting. This is a decision I made as a kid about what... effort meant and effort meant I was doing something wrong, you know, and it was, I was, or incapable of whatever it was. And so, um, when I look back on some of the other decisions I made about what major to take or choose in college or what jobs to pursue post college, or even within, you know, once I got to work, you know, what, how I was doing my work, you know, when I, when I jumped back out on my own recently, I had dinner with the CEO of the firm that I left, uh, soon after and I had to tell her just a big apology for being a, you know, a lazy employee because, um, you know, I didn't realize until I was out on my own what she was trying to do, you know, kind of like a shift that she was making. But, um, You know, recognizing that it was kind of like I was bringing some junk to, you know, how I was showing up at the office and that that was a big, you know, aha, like that was like, oh, interesting. And so, uh, well, it's one of those balance things, right? It's kind of a dilemma. Like, should you do the things that you're really naturally gifted at and focus on those things mostly? Or should you do like, Should I spend a bunch of time organizing and, you know, whatever? Or should I do the things that I'm better naturally gifted at? And how many blog posts are there in both directions? Right. You know, like there's no, that's, that's, I, there's no answer to that. Yeah, yeah. Despite people. Um, you know, thinking they have an answer, there's as much evidence in the other direction as there is in yours. That we found two economists that know which direction the economy goes. Uh, unfortunately, they're both diametrically opposed to one another. Right. Right. So, um, but going back in the time machine, you know, that was what was tough, you know, growing up, were moments like that. Again, I was You know, Flustered City is a really great town. Athletic, were you in sports, were you, you know, obviously a pretty good student? I was, to a certain point, I was a good student. I mean, weak for an advanced class student. Yeah, exactly. Um, my, uh, uh, so I was, It's semi athletic. I mean, for those who are watching the video, you know, you can kind of see how I'm pretty sure I could take you, unless you've been trained in some kind of martial art. Yeah, exactly. Um, you know, I enjoyed sports. I loved, uh, I loved golf, I loved baseball, I loved, uh It sounds like pickleball might be a game for you. Yeah, I'm playing pickleball these days. It takes a fast brain, yeah. It's, like, I don't, so You can play sometimes. It's right around the corner from your house, there is Are you a pickleball guy? I just I tried my first time like 10 days ago and I'm pretty damn good at it. Isn't it great? I love it. It's so accessible. Yeah. It's so accessible. Yeah. Yeah. I liked tennis. You know, I enjoy, I was, I was good enough to enjoy tennis. Yeah. Yeah. Which is saying something. I'm good at ping pong. That's why I have a ping pong table in here. Yeah. Tennis was harder for me. And so. It's a nice hybrid. It's the perfect sport. And it's. Yeah. In my opinion, it's more of a thinking man's game in some ways. Like, you gotta really decide what you're gonna do with this one. And you evaluate it. With ping pong, you gotta react and just get it back across the other side. Yeah. Yeah. There is strategy in A lot. Yeah, there's a lot of set up and a lot of, I, I'm, I would enjoy playing. So I Yeah, let's go play. I'm a member of the Fort Collins Pickleball Club. Oh, really? Yeah. Well, maybe I should join. It's 25 a year. Oh, I'll join that. Yeah, it's It was an easy, it was an easy yes, I know. Uh, so we'll talk more about that offline. Sure. Actually, do you want to give a quick commercial? Is there like regular engagements at the Pickleball Club? Where, where are your courts? Are you advocating for more courts, obviously, like every place in the nation? The, I don't have, you know, I'm not an official spokesperson for the club, but I will say, they do advertise, or one of their things is like, you'll have this great time connecting with other pickleball players. And that has been... Nothing. That's been so true. Like I, we have met and I'm talking about myself and my girlfriend who's also in the club. We've met so many people and it's led to so many cool connections and, uh, friendships. I mean, we're, we're so glad we joined in addition to actually enjoying the sport. So, that's the plug. You can, you know, comp, comp me on for next year's membership if you're listening. I don't even know who organizes it, you know, but hopefully they hear it. Yeah. Um. So you're doing your high school journey, your classes, whatever, pretty normal existence. No big trouble, nothing like that. Did you go off to college somewhere? Or a prep school? Did you get a prep school? No, no, I went to a state school. I went to Virginia Tech. I wouldn't say no trouble. Um, there were a couple of moments, uh, that I think were... informative, um, of this sort of like alternative streak. So like I was saying, I was industrious from an early age, even as a, as a kid mowing lawns or doing, you know, pet care or lemonade stands. And so this was maybe a good margin in that. Yes, especially if it's not your capital that you're using to buy the supplies. You can put real lemons in there. Yeah, I know, exactly. But, um, there was one time, and this was a pretty formative moment for me, there was one time where, uh, it was me and my two best friends, Cody and Kevin, and we were going to do a lemonade stand. And, um, I had started to experiment with Cody, not with Kevin, but I'd started to experiment with other, selling other things. Higher margin things, like you could sell lemonade for 25 cents, but what could you sell for a dollar? What could you sell for 5 that had the same kind of grab and go type, uh, you know, phenomenon? Not drugs. Well, I think... That's just where I go It could have been the same business model, but, um, but we, uh, we discovered, you know, I think the, the classic jump is like, Oh, what if you sell cookies or brownies? But we discovered that people were willing to pay big bucks for water balloons. And so we would sell water balloons already pre filled and everything pre filled, we had a whole, a whole thing. And so what we would do is. We would sell the water balloons and you could either take the water balloon with you, because sometimes people would pull over, buy the water balloon, and then just drive off because they were going to throw it at somebody, you know, later on, or you could throw it at us and you could either chase us or you could have a stand against a wall. And so people would be driving by and then And then they would just pull over and they'd be like, we've never seen a water balloon stand before. Oh, that's amazing. You know, can we, and so we'd, you know, Water balloons are basically free, one penny each or something plus water. Exactly. And we were selling at a couple bucks or five bucks a pop and then you, you know, You hit me in the face for five bucks. Yes. That's basically it. That was basically it. And it was a huge success. A huge success. And I think that was one of the things that, it was like one of my first lessons in business. Yeah. You're selling the experience. It's selling the experience. It was not selling a product, it was selling the experience, that's exactly right. Interesting. And so. That carries through maybe even to your strategic planning. I think so. Are you like, do you come in with a clown suit or anything like that to really get everybody engaged? Probably not. No, not quite. It's not an experience like that. Not, not quite a clown suit, but there are ways. More professional. Yeah. There are, there are ways to amp it up in, beyond just a kind of boring world. Well, you gotta break people out sometimes. Yes. Uh, we. Actually, what Ginger talked about during our Next Level Summit, Ginger Graham, was that... Not the Four Seasons, but the other one that's almost that good, the Ritz Carlton. Yeah, she talked about a case study of that and how they really focused their first like two, three days of a new hire only on the company, the culture, the values, the vision, all the things that they considered the most foundational to be in there because that's the only time that people are really pliable. Yes. Wow, that's, that's great. I love that. I love that. Yeah, it's kind of like, you've got this short window of indoctrination. So like, when you go to a new engagement, you almost have to do something to make a splash and catch attention or something, and it might not be the same for everybody. But you've seen a bunch of things. You're not that smart, but you're experienced. Yeah, I call them ho hum dingers. Which is a phrase I got from my dad. Yeah, my dad gave me that one. He's like, you gotta go in with a ho hum dinger. And, uh, but it's true. That's, uh, I think that's, I think that's spot on. Yeah. Well, to get back to the So anyway, Virginia Tech, yeah, we better, yeah, we can't go forever. The, uh, well, the, the, so the story around this waterboarding thing is that we were, we were gonna do a stand one day. It was me, Cody, and Kevin. We were gonna put a stand together. And so we're biking over to the local Rite Aid or Walgreens or whatever. And, um, along the way we saw a speed trap. And it was, it was sitting, it was the sheriff's Uh, department. Sitting in this parking lot that was just over the crest of a hill. Right. And they were catching people as they were coming over the hill. And, you know, I think, I don't know what came over us, but we were just so enraged by, you know, the nefarious, yeah, exactly. And so we decided to, uh, make this sign that says B Trap Ahead, and we had all sorts of, you know, like things on it and, you know, donations welcome and all that stuff. And, yeah. Um, and so probably five or 600 yards ahead of the speed trap was the Burger King. And so we were standing out front side of the Burger King with our sign. It said, Hey, we warned you of the speed trip. Yeah. And it was, people were honking and loving it. And, uh, Kevin, you know, so Cody and I were holding, or no, no, I'm sorry. Kevin and I were holding the sign. Cody was sort of standing watch, you know, and then all of a sudden you hear Cody go, you know, and he's like. Pedaling as fast as he can, and then it was like a movie, like these, these lights crested over the hill, and it was a full on, and so we just booked in the neighborhood, and, um, Cody and I got away, Kevin got pinched, and, uh, and then of course we all got pinched, you know, I'm like trying to make it home, we, we split up, and like. But he ratted on you right away. Yeah, everybody, everybody. Well, what did you do illegal though? Well, for one thing, being on the side of a busy highway probably was a huge sign. Right. Um, I, you know, I don't know, but, uh, I think it was a, uh, it, it was an interesting experience for me because, you know, it's trouble. Like, so, of course, I, I get the call from my parents that, you know, Sean, come on home right away, you know, and it's of course, uh, walking home with my tail between my legs and... Whatever your dad was proud of you. Yeah, I think it was, it was, it was sort of like a, uh... You know, I think there was a mix of like, Hey, don't stop getting, you know, don't, don't, why you gotta be, why you gotta cause issues for people, um, you know, combined with, uh, like, and what is the issue here? You know, like what really, and so it was a mixed experience, but so I had, I had little moments like that along the way. It was nothing serious, but it was. Um, just enough for people around you to know that you weren't necessarily just lockstep with whatever they wanted you to do. Right. Exactly. A free thinker. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It was sort of like a little, like, I'm willing to try, you know, often say I'm willing to try anything once. Yeah. You know, and, and, uh, but except for Russian roulette. yeah. Except for Russian roulette. Right. Um, but yeah, I went to Virginia Tech and, uh, you know, I enjoyed tech. I think the, the thing that I, for what? I went for international business and I got a minor in Spanish, so I, I did a lot of geopolitics, global economics, macroeconomics, business classes, and then, um, I, I, I've got a real, a real knack for Spanish, that was something that came out of my time, um, as a baker, that was my first job in high school, I was a baker, excuse me, a baker at an industrial bakery, and I loved it. I think it's still, that's been my favorite job to date. Really? It's just, there was, It was, yeah. Put the dough in the Yeah, exactly. There was something about working with your hands and Yeah. You know, you're kind of working at odd hours doing the strange thing. Yeah. Yeah. But it was really enjoyable. Um, it, it has given me an appreciation for pastries and Yeah, baked goods done well. Yeah. My, uh, my food trailer had, I forget blue something was the bakery in Denver that we would get our rolls for Oh, cool. For our sliders and stuff. It's so much better than everybody else's, you know? I mean, when you eat something that's well made, that's a standout, it's a pretty powerful experience. It matters. Yeah, for sure. It's a powerful experience. Um, but I went to tech, and I enjoyed it. You know, I was probably there probably more for the social scene than I was... It's the educational scene, which again, that, that was really a bad thing. Were you like a fraternity guy? I was. Sigma Phi Epsilon. Oh. Sigma Phi. Nice. Yeah. And so, uh, uh, again. that is. Sigma Chi was right across the street from me when I was in college. Oh yeah. frat parties mostly. Yeah. Yeah. I enjoyed it, but I don't think, I think some people have had a lifelong, you know, impact from their time in the fraternity. I didn't necessarily experience that. It was something that was great for school. And then, um, and then I kind of just, as soon as I graduated, it was like, all right, into the next thing. So I didn't. And when is this, by the way? This is, so I. Circle me a little bit. I. I think I'm 10 years older than you or something. Yeah. Maybe 15, I don't know. I graduated in 2011. Uh, from Virginia Tech. Oh, so you're just a puppy still. Uh, so... Like 33 or something, whatever. A 35 year old puppy, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which, uh, you know, I got my, my youthful good looks, although it's started to happen where I don't get carded anymore. Do people call you good looking? You know what? That was arrogant, I have to say, wasn't it? Thank you for catching that. Your girlfriend probably does. Yeah, that's it was, uh, but it was a good time. I'll tell you. So there is an important moment at Tech that happened. Um, so, and it was my senior year. I was getting, uh, lined up for, you know, what was coming next. And I had this cool gig that I was pretty excited about. Working for a company that sold these mainframes that, um, I didn't know at the time, but they ended up becoming a pretty big deal in the paper, but they, you know, they were monitoring internet traffic or whatever, but this, this job was help. Uncle Sam. Yeah. His, uh, Patriot Act work. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But the way it was pitched is like, you know, you get to fly all around the world and you get to work with these governments that are, you know, trying to do things and strong armor them into buying your thing and we'll bribe them to be part of our network. Right. Right, right, right. So, um, it was pretty cool. So that company in the middle of the job. process got acquired. So that opportunity disappeared. And the other ones I wasn't super keen on it. It wasn't Lighting me up and, um, you know, my dad for a long time, leading up into the, you know... And what were your folks doing, by the way? So my dad was a, uh, he was a sales guy. He booked for Cisco Systems. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And he was a... So you were around tech pretty intimately all from your... Early days, I suppose. Definitely. Although I would say But he was a relationships guy, probably not a systems guy. That's what I was gonna say. It's really more sales. My mom also, uh, a salesperson. Um, she had worked for a number of different jobs. She was directors of marketing and, uh, and stuff like that. Well, in the DC area, you just Pick the fruit off the trees, right? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. There's just, well, gosh, I tell ya, I mean, this is another aside, but I didn't realize how prosperous that area is until you get out of it. Oh, yeah. And it is, it is, it is wild. Well, send your wheat to do with it. Yes. It's that way. It is really, really something. So, um, We'll, we'll get to that when we talk about the politics section. Okay, good. Um, but what, uh, what was I saying? I was talking about We were talking about a formative moment. Oh, and getting out of college and whatever and this. So So your dad grabs you. My, my dad, leading, you know, for the six months or even longer, you know, years leading up to the graduation, he's like, listen, Sean, you gotta get a job with the government. If you get a job with the government, you're going to have a job for life. You're going to have benefits. You're going to have, you know, you'll be able to retire early and go on to something, you know, it was a, a big security risk management play. Like now the government steals all the best and brightest anymore. And it's like, Oh, so you can do this. It anyway, I do have thoughts on my dad talks about that. How like when he was in high school, like in the fifties and sixties, I guess, probably only the dumb kids went to work for the state. Or the local government, or things like that, and now, like, the best and brightest of our whole nation, and 63 percent of the students in England want to aspire to work for the civil service. Well, fuck that. Excuse my French, but, sorry. Well, we didn't And apologies to your father, and it's a great job, and it's very secure, very stable, and very recession proof, and fuck that bullshit. Like, that's bullshit that that should be that way. Well, I will say, I do wish that civil service and public service were... Um, somehow more competitive, like I think right now it is, it's, there is an issue. So that's part of the work that I do. I'm involved in, um, federal, oh man, this is going to be so boring to talk about, but it's cool. Uh, or now that I've gotten into it, I have, I, I have, I think it's much more interesting, but I do a lot of work with federal shared services. So it's the whole idea that if there's a payroll center, do you really need a payroll center at the department of education and the department of interior and the, you know, like, what if we just had some consolidated operations that serviced more of the government? And there's so much politics involved in that. All right. It was mind boggling. Every level of government. People compare each other by the size of their staff and not in a porn kind of way right as an overhead kind of way Yes, exactly. How many people do you manage? That's how big is your budget? Yes. How big is your budget? Yeah, how much waste do you have? I have a story I shared in this podcast before where a guy invented a thing where you could keep road signs on Like it's a super secret thing so you can't have people stealing your high street signs all the time and there's a lot of theft and Nobody was interested. It was like, well, I have two people that all they do is replace road signs. And what would I do with those people? Well, you don't need them then. Like, and that's the culture, unfortunately, of too much of government. Across every level, there's a lot of institutional preservation at play in the federal territory defending. Yep. Yep. And shared services is interesting in that it's very threatening to that because there's a lot of consolidation that happens. What do you do with extra, you know, or what if you adopt AI or even just robotic process automation? Sure. What happens to the 25, you know, headcount team that has been doing all of the 15. Right. Or 12. And where do they go? And then whose district is that in, you know, congressionally? And what if they So it's a And libertarians like me go Burden. Yeah, exactly. You know, whatever. Exactly. But I, uh, so... But you still have to be sensitive to the notion that this is the culture that exists now. It's, it's what you're dealing with. And I think there is a, uh, an important role that, uh, federal government can play. Sure. And I... And does. And does play. Yeah. And I, I do lament that there are, there are people who could make a difference. to the government, who won't go into the government because of how it's perceived, or the lack of pay, or the, the pay, like there's all sorts of things about the government world that make it, um, just not desirable. Oh really? Even though your dad advocated for you to get, go that way? Well, and so, in just, so, getting back to that story, the, Of course, you know, so I'm coming up on the end of my time at Tech and I'm thinking to myself, like, well, what am I going to do? Do I work for the government? You know, and like any, you know, good son, I'm like, well, let me do the exact opposite. And, um, I was trying to figure out what that was. What that actually looked like and, um, I wasn't in an electorate. Starting a rock band would probably be the opposite. Exactly. Exactly. So I was in this elective wine class, uh, at Tech. Cause Tech's got this great agricultural program. Yeah, yeah. Uh, just like CSU here. Um, and they, the guy, uh, 500 people in a class. A big auditorium. And we used, As an augmentation to the textbook and, and the in class materials, uh, videos from Gary Vaynerchuk. I don't know if you're familiar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, okay. Um, the, and again, this is 2010, 2011. Right, in his earliest days. Yeah, and it's not, it's like right in that, right before he got super annoying. Yes, I was just about to say that. I followed him and then I thought I was going to have a heart attack. And I had to unfollow. Um. We invited him to come speak at our class. Cool. And he came. Nice. And he had just put out this book called... I'm not blanking on the name of it, but it was like the social, I'm not going to remember. Whatever he released in 2010 or 12 or whatever. Exactly. And um, so he came, he talked a little bit about that, but the main core of the message was be an entrepreneur. Find something or take something that you're passionate about, something you like, something you enjoy, and then just find a way to monetize it and use social media to get the word out. And um, and now's the time to do it. Like you had, you know, it was just such this like sweet moment in life and do it. Cause you can always get a job later. And that, that really resonated with me. He also ended up giving away like a hundred thousand dollars worth of stuff to the class. I mean, he gave away thousand dollar bar tabs and thousand dollar gift cards to Zappos and, um, 10, 000 and he was, he was just picking numbers out of a hat. I mean, it was. Wild. I've never been to an event like that before. I wonder what was in it for him to do that. Was he already big enough to afford that? The thank you economy. That's what it was called. And what you just said reminded me of it. He was, he, his whole thing was like, just give, give, give, give, give. Well, and he knew there was money flowing all through that VT society kind of and stuff. And here I am, 22, or uh, 12 years later, talking about the story as if it was yesterday, you know, like if people, even though I don't follow him anymore, I still say, you know, hats off to Gary Vaynerchuk. Changed your trajectory. He changed my trajectory. So I took his model, his social, he'd made his money first in wine and then in the social media consulting. And so I took his social media consulting and I said, you know what, I'm going to Borrow this model, and I'm going to do it because that was a unique moment in time. 2011, I think Facebook started in 2007, but only for students. And so, if you were Well, and I got like a thousand followers on my food trailer business in a short period of time because it was easy to get traction back in those days. I still, I got 400 followers on local think tank 10 years later. And, and, and at that time when, if you were young and could carry a conversation, Um, it gave, it gave you a real leg up over, let's say, somebody who had gray hair, you know, some marketing executive would believe you that you could actually deliver this thing. Yeah. Cause they were like, wait a minute. You were the gatekeepers. Yes. Yeah. Because for a long, you know, I could say I was on Facebook, you know, six months after it was started. Right. That was a, that was a marketing edge that I had. Sure. I've been doing this for years, and you just want to get your Facebook page set up and whatever. Right. Exactly. So, so that's how. Interesting. So that's what it is. So you started right out of college. Right out of college. An international business degree. You started a social media consulting business. Yeah. And I did it for four years. And I loved it. I had, um, I, I had a lot of. The guy who was my first client, he had a high end landscaping firm. He was a client of mine up until just recently, you know, and he's now exiting it. I mean, it was like... That's cool. I had some really great experiences during that first four year period. And, um, the, uh, But I'll tell you what I learned. I hated social media. Right. Yeah, that's the thing. Nobody actually wants to do that shit. Nobody wants to do it. Nobody wants to do it. And so, um, but I, what I was discovering was that when you asked, you know, people come to you and say, Hey, help us put together a social media strategy. And you say, Sure. Let's fit it into your marketing strategy. Yeah. They're like, I don't have a marketing strategy. And it's like, well, let me help you do that. We'll just fit in your business strategy. And they say, well, ah, I don't have one of those either. It's like, well, let me, so it turns out I'm a strategic planner. Yeah. And but when you make the transition from, you know, social media into marketing and into overall strategy, suddenly it becomes a little bit more like, well, wait a minute. How many? Yeah. Yeah. Where's your gray hair here? Like, let's see the, let's see the scars from the times before. And so I realized that if I wanted to go deeper into strategic planning and that whole world, I needed to get on with the firm. And so you could, you could scrape by maybe with a bunch of. People that couldn't really afford you, but you were the best they could afford as far as the strategic plan. But you wouldn't really learn that much about how to help more, higher complexity firms. I'd be perpetuating my own mistakes. And, and that was not something I wanted to do. So that, that's what ultimately led me to jump on with. The firm that I did, which, which was Chris's the Clear, yeah, it was Chris's firm, the Clearing. Okay. Uh, which is a DC based consulting firm. Yeah. And they do mostly government work. And I loved The Clearing. Um, you know, it was a, uh, it was the perfect place for where I was at, and they do mostly government work compared to you kind of focused on service. services companies, private industry. And so that was why I ultimately ended up jumping back out. You I, I enjoyed, I enjoyed it. Um, I think there were some interesting things. You know, I can have some, in fact, one of those. One of those moments might be my crazy story, depending on how it ends up, but, um, the, I learned so much, and I really discovered also that I had an interest in the commercial work, and that was a smaller portion of what the company was doing, and they had made, rightly so, a strategic decision to go more into government work, and so that portfolio, yeah, exactly, and that portfolio that I was a start. Yeah. Well. I mean, when you're a junior guy at a consulting firm, do you have to eat what you kill? So that was what was cool about the clearing, was that, um, you could come in at a pretty junior level and immediately get really... You're part of a small team on a complex assignment. On a complex assignment. So you just had to show up and be there with the client and doing things. And so you had more junior people. Um, you know, becoming, we call them quarterbacks, you know, they'd become a quarterback on a project and you're like, you're 26, but the clan has glommed onto you, you know, and so you just. We would, we would always protect the quarterback, you know, we were, that's what we were, that's what we were trained to do. And you got this image of being just a little bit smarter than everybody else, even though you put your pants on one leg at a time like everybody. Yeah, exactly. But it's perspective. Exactly. And context and all that. And, and I think, um, you know, where if you were, if you were a more junior person, you were, you were always, Um, you always had resources standing, yeah exactly, you always had people get, you know, holding your, or uh, getting your back, you know, like they're, you were never alone. And so, that's, I think that's what made it a really cool place. I'm sure if I'd gone to a What a great frying pan to learn in. Oh yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, and not that going to a Deloitte or a McKinsey or a some other big firm, Oliver Wyman or something like that wouldn't have been another great experience. But this one, it really just, you know, I Small enough so you could actually see the impact of your work and Big enough so you could make impact. Yes, exactly. There were enough resources to bring to bear, but it was small enough that you could be that person that did it. Yeah. Uh, and so that, that was a pretty cool, it was a great balance. Um, so I, I miss it to this day. I mean, it was the right decision to jump because it was, uh, you know, I was just headed in a different direction. Yeah. Yeah. But it, it was a. Um, I mean, the culture was great, you know, it was just interesting. And had Chris already had his health event and stuff by the time you departed, or what was that? That is, you know... Because that's the same person, right? Yeah, same person. Um, I don't, I don't know exactly how... You remain intertwined in a lot of ways, still. Yeah, um, one, you know, the funny thing about the departure was that when I called Chris to tell him I was leaving, and I was, I was sort of nervous. I mean, not that there was anything to be nervous about, but I was kind of nervous to tell him he and I had worked together. Um, almost exclusively for the, you know, the last part of it there. And I was saying, I'm going to be leaving, you know? And so I told him and he's, you know, he's always got a lesson to tell me about something. And so, you know, I got the lesson and then we were wrapping up the conversation. He says, Hey, can I tell you something else? I was like, yeah, sure. What's that? He's like, I'm leaving too. I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, I'm retiring. I'm just accepted a buyout and I'm going to, you know, sail off into the mystic. And it was like, oh, okay, well. Maybe we'll keep in touch. And, uh, and it's, that's what it's been like ever since. So now circum me and did you, did you start your business out there in Washington or were you like, I'm going to move to Fort Collins and. Start this consulting firm, which seems like a terrible area, well, so maybe remote work helped make that possible. It was remote COVID land and all that. Yeah, I was actually in the middle of a move up to New York City. I've signed a lease. I've never thought about that before. I know. I know. The, uh, so in D. C., New York City is a, uh, a common step in the next, you know, common next step. Yeah. Uh, into the big leagues. The real ballers go up to Right. Uh, being an appropriate phrase there. Yeah. Exactly. Um. In 10 years, that'll make sense for those of you listening. That's right, when it's, uh, burned to the ground. When it's obvious that New York's a Detroit of the 70s or whatever, 80s, 90s, I don't know. Really rooting for it over there. Well, the financial, why would the financial sector stay there? Like. It's, well, so I, I do think it is interesting how this, this whole, like, we just have a different appreciation or, or need for city. Like cities have changed as a result of the last few years and so it will play out differently. Like this whole. Yeah. Uh, you know, the government's putting this return to the office order out, so all four million federal employees have to figure out some way to be back in the office after being remote for three years. Right. But, I don't even know about that. Part of that's driven by, um, the cities are, have been eviscerated. Tax bases have been eviscerated because there's just no, and which I know many people have the owners of commercial real estate that are big donors to campaigns and blah, blah, blah. You're painting a picture. Yeah, yeah. It's uh, hard to know. New York's, I mean, like, New York's. like kind of crying, like big cry, big cry over a couple hundred thousand migrants being there that they can't handle or manage or whatever. And Texas has taken in 4 million or something. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, well suck it up buttercup. It's going to get a lot worse. I was going to say it's going to get a lot worse. I'm reading this book. Um, that's talking about the, you know, it's written by a futurist and he's talking about. The migration of the, what he calls the middle third and basically divides the globe, you know, by, by latitude and he, you know, climate change or whatever you want to call it is just going to make close to the equator and like 30 degrees north and south of the equator in uninhabitable. And so you're going to have one of the largest forced migrations of people, uh, in history. And where do they go? They go to the northern and southern. And so what's going to happen, what, what feels like a lot now is likely only to get even worse in the coming decades. So it's, it's a, I hadn't really thought about it from that perspective. I suspect that's not true. Who's to say? Because paradise is paradise, kind of. And the tropics are always going to be kind of the paradise in a, in a tourism driven and kind of a pain in the ass to get anything else done economy. Well, and I think that's the, so like, that, that's exactly it. But if everybody's poor and they have limits on their carbon credits, they're not going to travel to Dominican Republic. Well, and what if, what if people stop going to the Dominican Republic because it's hot enough in, uh, you know, northern Florida? You know, and suddenly these other places become a little bit more bearable because, you know, you want a vacation where it's 100 degrees, not 115. Yeah, yeah. You know, um. That's a good question, I don't know. And my brother just came up from Austin. Yeah, and I guess that's probably a concern just because of the doldrums and that stagnation of air around the tropics that could really allow it to be kind of the oven district. Yes, right. Yeah. Again, I'm not a climate scientist, so I don't, I don't know how this stuff is gonna play out. Yeah. And I don't know if anybody does, but it's, I think it's an interesting thing to think through. Like, well, what happens? What would happen? Or what could cause a mass migration? And if that mass migration plays out, you know, are we already starting to see what warning signs of that? I don't, again, I don't know, but I think it's an interesting thing to think about. Um, And how it would impact cities like New York or LA or, um, the story is, the anecdote I was about to share is my brother is up from Austin or he was up for the month of August because Austin was too hot. He literally rented a place here in Fort Collins up by, uh, Horsetooth Reservoir because, It was, I think Austin had 40 days in a row of over 100 degrees. Whoa, no shit. Yeah, 40 days in a row. Oh shit. Like, like not, not like, oh, we had a, you know, a really hot weekend. It was 40 days. Yeah, that'll keep Austin weird. Yes, exactly. Is everybody not enjoying that. Right. And they're kind of, they're all kind of rooting for it. You know, the, the original Texans, cause they're saying, uh, you know, well, it'll, it'll send the LA, it'll send the Californians back to California. For sure. For sure. You know. So, um. Interesting. Yeah, but that's no fun for anybody. Right. Actually, excess heat probably kills more people than excess cold, on the, on the average. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, maybe that's wrong. I, I. It's both, they're both suck. They both suck. Yeah. That's, I can say that with authority. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't want either. That's why I joke with people, like, I'm like. You know, I'm from North Dakota where, you know, the Corn Belt is moved and like, and same for Canada. Like, they should be rooting for climate change. Well, like, why should they be so attentive to this, like, narrative and Trudeau and whatever and Like, they should be putting as much oil into the atmosphere as they can. Warm it up, Chris. I mean, from a self interested standpoint, uh, that's the truth. That's a, that is a bold claim. I'll have to think about that one. I don't see the downside. Like, Montreal's gonna get too hot? I don't think so, you know. Well, I think it, it just, you know, going back to the premise of this book is that, you know, what... What do you do when people start to, you know, when they start to move or demand different things that they've just not in the past? And I think this goes back to what you were saying earlier about adaptability. I do think that there's a level of adaptation that we're going to experience over the course of generations that we can't necessarily fathom. Well, maybe they should. All those people from... From the tropics, maybe most of them should move to Canada and cut down all those trees in the northwest territory so they don't burn so much and whatever, right? Like, that's actually okay to have these big swings, like the caribou would move if the food pattern changed. I don't, it's almost like I can't disagree. I think it's hard to agree because it's so like, Yeah, people won't hire you. Yeah, it's right. It's like, um, so I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna plead the fifth on that one. Yeah, you could just like, your smiles are enough for my acknowledgement. We're not videoing anymore, so people can't even see that. I'm really enjoying the premise of thinking through that. Um, but. So we've talked about why you got to Fort Collins and stuff. Oh, right. Yeah. So I was in the middle of this move, uh, up to, uh, uh, New York city. I was just thinking I was headed to the next, you know, taking the next big step. And my, um, I signed a lease for an apartment. I, it was March 3rd, 2020 when I signed the lease and I was, I was on the way to the apartment to sign. I was with my best friend. We're riding the subway and he's like, you know, I bet if you wait a week, you could probably get a better deal on rent, because I forget what rent was like 3, 100 for a shoe box or something like that. And uh, I was like, no, I just, I've been talking about it for years. I'm finally at the point where I'm ready to go. Like I'm just going to do this and you know, I'll figure out a better living situation next year. Like, but I'm tired of waiting. And then of course everything changed, uh, the middle of March. And so did you back out? I did eventually back out. Yeah, I thought, you know, for the first bit, it was like, oh, okay. And the, and the landlord... Two weeks to flatten the curve and all that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like, okay, this is, we'll just give it a couple weeks and then I'll go. And the landlord called and he was like, hey, don't come. Like, things are getting really weird up here. Don't come. Interesting. Um, let's, you know, let's push it off a month. And then one month became two, and then two months became three, and then it kind of became this thing where it's like, ooh, I... I don't know if New York's the place. Doesn't seem like anybody's moving to New York's the place. A lot of people from New York moving to Florida. Yeah, so I lost my securities deposit. Uh, but, but what ended up happening was I let go of my lease in D. C. And... Um, started to just roam around and so I had found a condo on the beach down in Georgia. Like Airbnb style? Yeah, Airbnb style and then I, and then I found another spot in the Outer Banks and then I ended up in, in Montana and then... Where in Montana? Big Fork. Right, right outside Big Fork. And I loved it. I loved it. That opened my eyes to what it would be like the West is like. Yes. Exactly. Really? Like the West, not California or Seattle or wherever else you had been before. Exactly. Exactly. And so Or Denver even. It's, it's, so, it was Like Montana is different than Denver. Wild up there. Yeah. Yeah, I had, it, it, it, I loved it. I loved it. I was in this cabin that was, uh, it would, bordered a, uh, state forest. Nice. And it was awesome. I'd finish work for the day and I would just walk out into the forest, which, in retrospect, may have been dumb. Um, cause I was thinking... Yeah, you were bear bait, probably. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And there was, uh, a 60 Minutes, uh, bit about the reintroduction of grizzly bears. Right. And they filmed it on the mountain range behind the cabin. Wow. And it until the end of my stay there. I was there for like six weeks or eight weeks or whatever it was. And I was like, whoa, wait a minute. We just ran the, my team just ran the wild west relay. And before we left Walden, we, we, actually the lady let us in early to the gas station to get some cold coffees to go and different things, whatever. And she said, well, there's been quite a few wolf attacks of cattle and stuff up here lately. And we've literally got a runner running by themselves in the middle of the night down the road, you know. And like, when we got to Steamboat, we were like, hey, just so you know. Next time, there's wolves through that stretch. There's, I, I used to, prior to my stint in Montana, I was like, it'd be cool to see a bear. Uh, and then, and then, then once I got out there... Yeah. Like, I'm very clear. It's cool to see a bear from the window of my car with the window rolled up. Yeah, I never want to have a wildlife encounter, ever. Like, I'm okay never having to deal with some sort of, you know, strange... I've taken out five raccoons so far in my backyard, over the years. The last one bit me. Did you have to get a rabies shot? No, I killed him so I could take his carcass in and get it tested. Oh, and it ended up not being... Yeah, my dog caught it and was fighting with it and I tried to separate him and... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I... Yeah, so I tested the raccoon, so I didn't have to get rabies if you didn't have rabies. Have you ever read anything about the rabies, uh, It's no fun. It's not fun, and it's also really hard to get a hold of in some areas. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Is rabies shot shortages? Well, it's not really shortages, but it's like there's some sort of, um, issue with insurance, where And so, and, you know, there's a, there's a, it's like a 72 hour window. You've got to get the shots in. Oh, it's like a week now. They got new stuff, but yeah, whatever, whatever it is. But yeah, I had a couple of days left is all by the time I got my results back. Yeah, exactly. Anyway. And so they're, they're, the bears will just kill you. I never wanted to run into a bear, ever. Like I am so fine. We're going to have a three hour episode unless we transition soon. Okay. Um, so Fort Collins comes into the mix. Yeah. So Fort Collins comes in the mix. The, my. Well, reality is my girlfriend's here, so. And she was here already? Yeah, she, uh, she had moved up from Denver. to Fort Collins. She had heard the good word. Well, how did you meet her? This, well, Shoot. Uh, so, she and I went to middle school and high school together. Oh, really? Yeah, and so we reconnected, uh, as boyfriend and girlfriend. And what's her name? Her name's Alina. Alina? Yeah. Nice to meet you, Alina. Yeah. I'm sure you think your boyfriend is handsome. Yeah, cause Kurt does not. And so, like, You got on the Facebooks and you like started this reconnect thing or something? Or been, you already had been. Yeah, we, we never really lost touch, you know, really, we've always been, uh, somebody had had framed it as a longtime listener first time caller kind of thing. Interesting. So that was, yeah, it was just a moment in time where we, we were in Covid Nation. It was you like, hey, you're like, hey, where the world is weird. I'm rephrasing and reframing my whole life, and you're in Denver, I want to come and see you. That's exactly it. Really? That's exactly it. So, yeah, it was sort of a lot of things changed around that time. And it was just, uh, it was just like we suddenly found our, our ships, you know, sailing next to each other. So, it's been great. We've loved Fort Collins, it's been an awesome place to sort of settle down and, you know, put a, put a pin in the nomadic thing. And she was in Denver, obviously, but why did you choose Fort Collins specifically instead? She had her, well, it wasn't, it was her choice. She had just heard these... She's like, I'm going to move to Fort Collins. Everybody loves it. Yeah, that's basically it. Why don't you just move here with me and we'll figure it out. Yeah. What, what, what had really happened was she moved and then, um, I was traveling a lot for work. And so my, you know, I kind of had these hubs of DC, Austin. Sure. DC, Austin, DC, Austin, you know, and I, Travel in and out of those places, um, and then all of a sudden it started to become like D. C. Austin, Fort Collins, D. C. Austin, D. C. Austin, you know, D. C. Austin, Fort Collins, and there's like Fort Collins, D. C., you know, and just over time became a little bit more prominent. Her magnet drew you in. Yeah, basically. Yeah. The tractor beam. Fair enough, the tractor beam. Fair enough. But I'm glad it happened. Yeah, I think it, no, it's a cool town. Like it's hard to figure out where you'd wanna move to instead. That's the weird thing about it. Especially once you build some, some community network and stuff. Yes, yes. We didn't talk at all about join or die. Shoot. Yeah. Do you wanna give like a quick synopsis of that? Because that was really one of the first parts of our conversation that was significant to Yeah, so, um, so this is a plug for a buddy of mine that I went to high school with. He, uh, he's a super sharp, very cool guy. Um, he's one of the few people from our graduating class, or he wasn't in my graduating class, but he was from, uh, across graduating classes that went to Harvard. You know, he's just a really sharp guy. Yeah, yeah. Um. So his name's Peter Davis, and he's very passionate about local community, um, and being dedicated and committed to your communities. So, I'm, I'm gonna say things, and they're, I need to confirm. It's a paraphrase. Well, I need to confirm them, um, but just to give you a sense of who this guy is, he started a, an app called Our Place or Our Neighborhood, uh, which, It either preceded Nextdoor or got bought by Nextdoor. There's some sort of relationship to Nextdoor, right? But it came in... Um, he's been on Shark Tank. He's one of the early co founders or early folks at Getaway, which is a... We might not have it... Here in Fort Collins or Denver because it's so natural, but like outside of DC and New York, there are these little tiny homes like hotel room trailers with big windows and people take, you know, uh, uh, yeah, got to get away. Right? Exactly. Exactly. You know, it's like super Instagram worthy, but, um, he got in on that. So anyways, one of his teachers was Robert Putnam at Harvard and Robert Putnam is famous for writing the book Bowling Alone, which makes the case for Um, joining a club or a local organization and that when you do that you build social capital. And social capital is like the infrastructure. That's like the stuff that Haiti doesn't have much of right now. It's actually, that, so, it's funny you say that because that's something that I'm thinking about, or wondering about how to introduce. Because there is this notion of when you can get people building connection and relationship together. Yeah. You've got more. Um, and I think it's a lot easier. Yes, precisely. Um, but when you think about the history of the United States, so many of our movements and our ideas about how things should work and the way that things should be came out of, So, um, but what Robert Putnam's book highlights is that there's been a decline of participation in clubs. Pretty significant decline. And so I know you're a member of the Rotary. True. I am not. You should. Right, I should, but, but I think the, and just to be really frank about it, I'm not sure why I would join the Rotary, other than I know it would be good, but it doesn't fit in my social, like I don't have peers in the Rotary, you know, like I don't. You might be surprised. Well, and, but they're, so, I think that's the point. Definitely no strategic planners. Right. Well, that is part of the point. That's the point. You don't have peers. I would be surprised, you know? Right. Like, it's not, it's not something that's prominent in, in my life in the way that it may have been prominent in the lives of, you know, generations prior. There's probably the same number of Rotary Club members as there was 60 years ago in Fort Collins. We make up a much smaller percentage now than we did. Exactly, exactly. And, and it's not a slight on the rotary, but it's really more, I think, an indication of how society's shifting away from being joiners and so, um, but, so, and yet group identity is more important than ever in some fashions. It's weird. It's a strange, there's a, there. I have had the thought, um, and I, I'm wondering aloud, again, I'm not an expert in this stuff, but I remember reading a biography about Benjamin Franklin. Yeah. And, Just commenting to myself about all of the trash talking and character assassinations that happened back then, you know? You know, he's inventing these fake people to write op eds about, you know? It's like, I mean, some of this stuff is like, gosh, that's pretty dastardly, you know? And, uh, and so we also have a pretty strong history of... Tearing each other down. Yeah. You know, in the political, but propaganda is not a new thing either. Yeah, right, right. Exactly. So, which again, doesn't make it good or bad, or right or wrong, but it's more like, you know, I, I do wonder, like what is it that there's less social capital? Or is it just. changing or morphing and, and I don't know. It's digital tokens. Yes. Exactly. So, and, you know. If, or, or YouTube shorts likes. Right. Or whatever. Like, that's how we measure it. Right. Or at least how the kids measure it. Yes. In comparison. And does that, does that, how does that compare to the way it happened? It's way slipperier. Yeah. You know, my Rotary Club, like, as you know from this conversation, I'm a kind of a diehard libertarian, small government. No, uh, compliance obligations kind of stuff, and that doesn't always go over well. And, most of my fellow members have known me for ten plus years. And, you know, I got the grace card. Quite a bit, even though they might've sent me emails that said I was a dastardly deed doer during the heat of the moment. But you get the email. That's the thing. It's like, That's how it's, yeah. Because there's a connection, you can, they care about me. There's evidence that they care about me. Right. Yeah. Right. And that's They were wrong, obviously. Right. Of course. That goes without saying. Yeah. But I think that's, you know, do it, I don't know if everybody has that, you know, I don't know if they have those pathways. No, most people don't have anything like that. Yeah, they don't have their pathways with, with people who think differently than them. Yeah. And, and so I, I was just really taken by, So my, my buddy Peter Davis and, and his sister Rebecca Davis, I should mention her too. Also a, a high school alumni, um, college or co, you know, whatever, what's the word? Yeah. Whatever it is. D, graduate class, whatever. Right, right, right. Um, so the two of them really got together and, and created a, a very, very powerful film that reiterates. You know, Putnam's message about joining and just the impacts that that can have and sort of the resilience that that provides to communities and to individuals. I mean, it has a very direct impact on your personal health. It doesn't seem like you should be So Chad at the Chamber was saying the same thing. You know, I watched it with Carl, you know, your Rotary, uh, your fellow Rotary member at the Chamber in their conference room. Chad, you know, we walked into Chad's office afterwards and he's like, have you joined the chamber yet? You know, it's kind of like I'm sort of looking a little bit like I've got egg on my face and in doing so. So I do have to make some choices. You're like, I'm a little wolf, man. I know, I know. But I got the pickleball club, you know? Yeah, that's something. It's 25 bucks a year. So you aren't getting that much value. More than that, though. More than, yeah. So anyways, I know we got to wrap up. We're two and a half hours in. Yeah. Faith, family, politics. Which one do you want to start with? You lead. You want to talk more about your girlfriend? Ha ha It's like family kind of. I mean, we talked about your family back home a little bit and Justin and what not, but. I'll tell you something interesting that I, that I, the, an experience that I'm having. You going to ask her to marry you soon? Probably? Ha Already got the ring picked out. This, yeah, this, this hits pretty hard. Um, here's what I will say. Here's what I will say. Um, I have had a big shift in priorities. I think, uh, I think I used to have these aspirations of going big, going abroad, you know, all this Being the next Gary Vaynerchuk, whatever. Yeah, whatever it is. I feel very different now. Yeah. I have much more, um, interest in, in building something and just sort of saying, okay, what does it look like to put down roots somewhere, you know? And I, and I think a big part of that is having someone next to you that, um, You can really count on it. Yeah, exactly. You can really count on it. So it's, this is the first time in my life that I've had that shift. Interesting. Um, and it's been pretty nice. It's pretty magnificent, huh? Yeah. Yeah. It's been cool. It's been cool. It's been very cool. I dig it. Yeah. Um, any other comments on her family in general, like, uh, like what it means to you in particular? I don't know. Like, family influence? Do you have a grandfather that was amazing or anything like that? Yeah, I definitely had a mystical grand I mean, I had great grandparents. Again, my family has been pretty... Pretty awesome. If everybody had family who you there wouldn't be that many fuck ups in the world. Yeah, maybe I don't know. I'm sure some people could find ways but I just had a great family experience I had you know, I had the big family holiday parties with grandparents and aunts and uncles and you know, I had on my dad's side Uh, you know, his father was definitely the patriarch of that side of the family and very almost mystical in a way, you know, kind of knew everybody and could open doors and stuff. And so that was, um, it's just, it has been great in that regard. My mom's side has also had just this, um, you know, they're the Italian side. And so, Okay. So you're Irish Italian? I'm Irish Italian. Oof. Like many others. Fascinating mix, though. I mean, perfect mix, almost, for that region of the country, in some ways. Yeah, yeah. But, uh, you know, when you think about the big Italian meal, you know, we'd have the big Italian meals on that side. I probably, characteristically, you know, lean more towards my dad's side. They're kind of the outgoing, uh, the wild side. But in my older years, I've... become, yeah, identifying more with my hugs over Irish whiskey. Yeah. Or like thinkers, you know, thoughtful. They're the, uh, you know, the Catholic, the Catholicism came from, from my mom's side. And so we've got a lot of, we've got a lot of really thoughtful philosophers coming out of that, that, that clan. And, uh, So it's great. Yeah, I don't, I mean, what I would say about family, uh, my brother and I are probably as close as brothers could be. Wow. I mean, we talk all the time. With eight years apart, that's cool. It, it, it's cause we didn't have to fight for resources. Right. And so, we. Or attention. Yeah, or attention, or, yeah, he was out of the house. By the time I started to want attention. Right. So it was, it was really just a great set up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just like do my own thing, but we, um, like, for example, I already mentioned he came up for a month and it was, I would say the August of 2023 has probably been the best month of my life. It's really been amazing. And we scheduled this before he came up. I think we were back in late July or so when we first put this on the calendar. Yeah, so it's... That's cool. I'm glad you had that experience. Yeah, and it was all around family. Like, my parents came in, aunts and uncles came in from out of town. He was here. This is Sean's new place. Let's come and go and see it. Exactly. Exactly. So it's just been... Did you take him to the food truck rally? I did. A number of times. Good. Yeah. And in fact, we went so many times that one time we went separately and ended up at the food truck rally together, you know, so. I like it. Yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome. What was the other one? Well, we got faith family politics. Faith family, so that was family. We talked about Catholicism a little bit. Yeah. Your faith background. Yeah, yeah, so I was, I was certainly raised Catholic and I mentioned... Well, there's Irish Catholics and... And Italian Catholics. Italian Catholics, right. Yeah, the, uh, so it was, it was more of an Irish Protestant and... an Italian Catholic. Um, I would say, um, my... Catholicism has waned in my adult years, but it has these moments of where it kind of peeks back in. Um, I, I just, you know, I don't know what to say about it other than like sometimes you ask big questions that can't be answered and it's like, well... Let's just leave it there? Yeah, let's just leave it there. Like, huh, that'll be a mystery that... Yeah. And we'll never just figure it out, you know? Have you never, like, pulled the thread of faith too much? I did have a moment, so my uncle on my mom's side is a philosopher at a seminary here in the... Uh, here in the United States, it's one of the, one of the, there's only a couple of seminaries in the United States that are sponsored by the Vatican, uh, and so he, yeah, he, he teaches at one of them, um, and he's, he's one of the world's foremost experts on the patron saint of the continent of Europe. Okay. Um. And I don't remember his name. Yeah, whatever, whatever Saint, yeah. Whatever her name is. Yeah. Um, so, uh, he and I, again, in our older, in my older years have just had more free flowing conversation about things. And so I, I joined him at a conference once, um, it was for a, a Catholic group and it was in New York. And again, I hadn't been to church in more than five years. Way more than five years at that point, you know, um, but it was an interesting experience because I think it was just a moment in time and a stage of life where I heard something different that I hadn't heard before. Um, and I experienced a lot of, uh, connection. Not necessarily to the Catholic church, but to this, um, you know, the, when you step back and think about it, when you think about religion in the Christian context, um, there's billions and billions and billions of people who have been sort of looking at the same thing for years. And like, when you think about the history of time, right? Like how many people have ever existed, ever, you know, and uh, and been thinking about that stuff. And so there was a real. Um, it was just a moment that struck me, it was like, whoa, interesting, this is something that's very big, and even though it's got these trappings that are inherently human and therefore inherently just flawed, you know, there's no, there's nothing perfect that we've ever built, but uh, um, there is definitely a sense of something bigger than oneself if you kind of step, take a step back and look at it. That was one of the observations from a recent conversation actually, where Like when I was a kid, probably when you were a kid, it was like a contrast, the Big Bang or God. Mm. And now, a lot of the people that are studying this Big Bang are like, well, it's so full of information, it seems like it must have been planned by an intelligent designer. And so, the, the kind of atheist camp, if you will, has to find like a different place to stake their territory. Yeah, there's a, uh, there is definitely seemingly like a, a line of existence that faith can go beyond when science stops. Yeah. And, uh, and so... I don't know. What would I say about that line? I read an interesting book. It was called a guide to the perplexed or a guide for the perplexed. And it was written by, yeah, it was written by this guy, EF Schumacher, who is, I think, a Catholic writer. And it was recommended by a colleague. Um, and it was not in a religious context. It was more in like a philosophical context. And, um, I read it, and he, you know, he just establishes this hierarchy of like, okay, do, you know, rocks know that plants exist? Right. No. You know, like there's no Seems unlikely. Seems unlikely. Right? Do plants know that animals exist? It's like, uh, no, seems unlikely. But Well, plants even probably know that rocks exist, kind of, because they grow around them and stuff. Well, yeah. I don't know. So that's a, that's a good point. Like, do they know? I don't know. But the But anyway, keep going. Then the next level is, of course, animals, and then there's a, uh, you know, a human at the top. And so some people might say, well, that's kind of human centric or, uh, whatever. But, um, I think what it's, what it's... is that, like, well, can you know, like, can, like, does that, that rung below actually know or can it comprehend the full experience? Like, can a plant comprehend the full experience of an animal? Yeah, what can an ant tell me about humans? Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so, especially when I'm there with my magnifying glass. Right, right, right, right. And so the, you know, the, it kind of leaves the. I don't think I finished the book, but I kind of got, you know, you get the premise pretty much chapter one or chapter two and it's like, uh, you know, it asks the question, it's like, well, could there be another rung above humans? And of course, inherent in the premises, you can't know because it says like the bottom rung doesn't know about, you know, the full experience of the top rung. And so it's kind of like, well, that's just another question that will go unanswered. I would say that's probably, I'm not going to church, but if somebody wants to go to church, I'll go. Like, that's kind of where it stands right now. Fair. Yeah. Um, what are you, like, the big... Challenging question is like, what do you do with Jesus or with God in general? Like, do you, do you believe in a creator force who's got kind of some sort of moral authority, whether he's Hindu or Jewish or Muslim or Christian? Like, they could fight over that guy, right? It's the same guy. Well, not the Hindu, but whatever. Or, like, do you just say there is no moral authority, kind of? I would, so, um, I would, damn, this is a big question. I know, this is, true, I did get the email saying that this was going to be We've been drinking tequila for two and a half hours, what do you expect? Yeah, I know, um, so my, okay, let me collect my thoughts on that one, um, here's what I'd say, I don't know if it's necessarily, Or here's what I take issue with, a moral authority. I don't know, I think, I think morality is a human quabble, or quibble. Uh, you know, I, I think that that's something that as a result of the way that our brains have evolved and Yeah, and cultural differences and whatever. Yeah, there's, I think Like in subcultures it's It's perfectly okay to beat a child to death if you don't have enough resources to keep feeding him. Which is a very extreme example, but potentially an accurate example. You know, but that's like a... In other cultures... It would never happen. You could have an abortion for kicks and grins. Right. At any moment. And, and so, I think with that... And celebrate it. What that tells... How much did you live yet? I don't know. I'm walking home today. It's fine. I'm walking home. Well, I think what that tells me, um, using that... Those two examples or any other example that, that showcase differences is that it's subjective across our species. And so, in it being subjective, that makes me raise doubts about the stance that anyone could have. You know, that level of connection to that authority if there is such a thing. Right, right, right. So I do, so while there, I might take issue if I were to really kind of write something out and think about it with this notion of a moral authority, but what I would be open to is like, Yeah, but something started, something created, something started something somewhere, you know? Here's a laptop, there must have been an explosion that created this laptop. Carl Sagan had a great line where he was like, you know, he picked up a pencil and he's like, In order to create this pencil, one must first create the universe. And it was like, whoa, that's an interesting line to think about, you know? And it's like, in order to create the universe, what was... What were the conditions necessary? Right, right, right. What was there prior? And so, um, so yeah. So I, I... So you have something driving you forward, though. Like, I don't detect, like, an absence of faith in something. Definitely not an absence. Yeah, no, definitely not an absence. Something useful, that purposefulness around whatever. I think I have a respect for what I can't understand. You know, I... That's a good answer. I don't necessarily endeavor to understand it or connect with it, but I certainly have a respect for it. And, um, when people have say that they've found the answer, I'm always dubious, you know? I'm dubious of people who have answers to things that I personally have not, you know, and I guess, which is, I guess, my... That's your lone wolf talking a little bit, but... Right. Sure. I think that's fair. I think that's fair, but it's like, I'm dubious of answers in this, in this arena, you know? But, uh, something's out there. We'll, uh, we'll have to keep our politics segment short. Sure. Super quick. Uh, what, uh... What's your preferred candidate for 2024? Pfft. Pat, man, this is... No, let's go for the easier question. Let's, uh, why don't you paint yourself philosophically? Uh, comparing to any old writers or whatever. Yeah. So I had, uh, so I'll tell you a political moment I did have. Um, I think like many peers my age, I'm pretty relaxed socially. Uh, I feel like that's a... Gays should marry, et cetera, et cetera. It just doesn't matter. Abortion should be illegal. Yeah, it's, it's a, um, it's an, it's a, it's a, like there's a good spot for government and there's a bad spot for government. Can I have four wives? That's a good question. That's a good question. Poly, what is it? Polygamy, right? Yeah, yeah. Polygamy. Um, I don't know. I think if people vote on it and it's a yes, then like, it's not me to tell you that you can't. Well, why should the majority have... Any say over what I do. I'm a lone wolf, baby. I want four wives. Well, I think in the, in the sense that there's already rules that exist. So from standing, standing where we are now and looking at what would have to change. Like, if the world wants to head in that direction, you know, be it far from me to stop. I think there are implications for... Um, you know, for society in doing that, but it's like, you know what, ride the wave. Uh, I think you gotta, you gotta deal with, you gotta deal with implications. Like, Korea has like a 78 reproduction rate right now. We're all, I don't want to say we're all, but... We're like, U. S. is like 1. 8. We're not doing so hot right now. But imagine if 25 percent of the kids turn into non binary or the opposite of what they are. They're not having kids. And then you have, you know, we could find ourselves quickly, economically, in an unsustainable culture. It's a, it's a dilemma. It's a real question. It's a dilemma, isn't it? It is a dilemma. What's good for me, or what's good for all? Which is why polygamy is the answer, because the breeders, they just want to get as many women as they can. That's been the strategy for a lot of religions up until, uh, you know, for a long time. But, uh, my, um. I would say I'm, I'm, I'm less concerned, um, You're a closet libertarian, we can just call it. Yeah, perhaps. Socially liberal, fiscally fairly conservative. Well, I'll tell you what happened. Can we sustain a never ending budget? Oh, tell me the story. Well, yeah, so this is a quick anecdote that I think will sum it up. So, my first year out, uh, I had a great year. I've been very fortunate to have, um, you know, just a successful practice over the last few years. And I remember my first year, um, having to write, uh, Check, uh, for taxes, and it was the largest check I'd ever written in my life, and I said, wait a minute, what's going on here? And so, um, did I, everybody's a Democrat until they start paying taxes, right? And I think that, I think that's a, I think, uh, and I know I'm probably going to catch some flack for that. And it's not that I necessarily drew a conclusion from that experience, but what it woke me up to was, oh, it matters. Like it actually matters. And I think that's what that's what became clear in that moment was, um, Oh, I need to be paying attention. Um, and I need to be active when it is, you know, something that I are for the greater good, though. Well, That's for me, and I think in that context, it's for me. I'm the most important shareholder in Club Kurt Bear 100 percent LLC or whatever a hundred percent a hundred percent and so that's why it's always impressive when Someone can rally You know Yeah. Groups around a vision because to protect themselves, like Fort Collins has done to protect open spaces and different things, parks, and, and that's, of course, they didn't budget enough for maintenance of all those parks, but whatever. It's different. That's a, yeah, that's the next podcast. So, but I, I think that's that with you. You dunno nothing about it. Yeah. But I think that's a great, that's a great point is that it's, um, I think that that's what gets into the beauty of a group working together. I absolutely think groups should work together. Yeah. I think groups that I think we should be pitching, and I'm not against taxes a hundred percent. It's, um, but now I'm way more invested in how tax money gets spent, you know, and what it goes to. Well, and I think, what I think I hear from you is that you could probably argue the alternative on any front in the political sphere. Um, like you understand enough now, you're getting there, maybe 10 years from now you'll get there. But where, and I think that most people can't, like they can't even physically engage themselves in that kind of a thought exercise. I think I'm, what I'm turned off about in, I would say I've historically been turned off by politics until recently and it is the absolutism. Yeah. Uh, that I encounter. If you support Donald Trump, then I can't be friends with you. Right, right. There's this whole, there's this whole, if this conditionality, and If you don't support trans athletes, then we can't be friends. Yeah, and then Or whatever. And then there are these quagmires that get built around, like, well, if, it's not even if you do or don't support, but it's really the absence of support, you know, like even, even the quiet or the silence. And so Um, which again, you know, I think it's important to voice what you stand for. Like, you gotta, you gotta be out there speaking your mind. So in some ways, I'm like, yeah, you know, if you are quiet, you know, silence is assent. I'm using that rule all the time in my work. Silence is assent. Yeah. Um, you know. Yeah, we had that rule early in Loco Think Tank, um, where everybody, every existing member has to vote a new member in. Yes. And there's no abstain. Yeah. You can't abstain. Not allowed. Yeah, there's no, there's no passengers on, uh, you know, spaceships. Not here at UF, where you're the decider. No, no, no passengers. And so, um, so I can, I can kind of understand that. But there's a weaponization also that happens too. And I think that's, that's where it gets dangerous because then it escalates. It escalates and you can't de escalate. We're at stage, Six? Right. Right. Now ish on the escalation scale? Yeah. Yeah. Um, the loco experience, the craziest experience that you're willing to share? The one I'm willing to share? Oh, gosh. Um, you know, that is a tough one. I think there, ah, man, I, okay, the one that I'm willing to share, uh, I'll tell you an interesting experience. I don't know if I can call it crazy, um, but I'll tell you an interesting experience. I had a gig once for a, uh, Uh, a group that I didn't know who they were. And, um, I had gotten a call from a former client. Um, or actually, I guess I didn't get the call, but a colleague of mine had reconnected with a former client, and she was, you know, a government exec, and she had gone on to do other things, and then, and then they had reconnected, and I remember my colleague walking over to my desk saying, hey, I just talked to uh, so and so, you know, you remember? Of course I remember. Yeah. How do you? Um, well, she said she, she's doing something. She can't tell me what it is or what they do or how they do it or, you know, anything about it. Right. Um, but she's wondering if, uh, you'd be interested in, in stopping by and visiting the organization and it's like, yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah, sure. I'll do it. I'll do it. This sounds interesting. So we get on the phone and I'm just asking basic, basic questions like, okay, so what do you do? Is it, you know? Uh, and she's like, well, I can't really tell you anything about it. And I was like, Okay. What, you know, like what type of planning? Yeah, we're going to do. And, um, and she's like, I really just can't tell you, but, you know, I'm wondering if you can figure out a way to come in and help guide us through something. And it was like, all right, well, let me give it some thought. And, um, so I thought I had this idea. It's like, okay, I think I got an idea. Let me see if I can. You know, I'm thinking the blind scales of justice person, persona. So, um, I was like, okay, I'm game. I think I got an idea. Uh, you know, how are we doing this? And so she's like, okay, meet at this address. Um, and, uh, you know, we'll be there. So we get to the address and it's funny cause it's, uh, it ended up being this, uh, place that I knew very well. And it's one of these things where it's like, Are you telling me that there's a, you know, some sort of super, ultra, you know, sensitive operation, operating out of here I've been going, you know, I've been walking past this place for my whole life practically. And uh, you know, now I realize why you can't get to the top three floors. Like they don't even have, you know, there's a 10 floor building and the elevator only goes to floor seven, you know, it's like, Oh, whoa. And I walk in, and of course, you know, it's the, you know, do do do do do, like, security, and... Some kind of think tank or something? Yeah, yeah. Beyond that? I still don't know what they did. But, um... Okay. So I, I walk into this room, and, uh... It's a dark bunny pentagon thing, something, something. Something like that. And I, I walk in, and there's a bunch of people who are sitting around a table. I've never met any of them in my life. And, uh, I introduce myself, and they're, like, sitting quietly, and they're like, Okay, go. And I was like, Hmm. Alright, well, and so I just dove into it, and, uh... The idea I had was, I'm going to create a lemonade stand. And so I modeled a business. I said, okay, I'm going to walk you through the strategic plan for a lemonade stand. Um, and it's going to start with, can my product or service address the need of the market? And so here's a, and then as I'm going through the strategic plan for Lemonade Stand, people are starting to ask questions like, well, what, what if your lemonade, um, consumers, uh, don't think that other people should consume lemonade, you know, it's like, well, here's an issue. And, and we had an entire. Workshop about the strategic plan. All in metaphor. All in metaphor. And I remember, oh, during the course of that, that gig, people's names changed, you know? Sure. It was like, who started as Steven ended up as Biden family tieback thing? No. Just kidding. I'm just getting you in trouble. Yeah, so, anyways, that was, that was probably one of the most interesting things I had ever done, was, you know... So you don't know... Somebody sent you a cashier's check on an unnamed account kind of thing? It was a U. S. Treasury check. Right, from, you know, whatever. Just from the U. S. Treasury. Right. That was it. I have no idea what they did. I don't know what they do. I don't, you know. It was just like you might be in trouble for sharing that story, though? No, I don't think so. Well, they probably won't listen to this podcast. Yeah, they probably won't listen to the podcast and even the, you know, there's the That's fascinating, though. Yeah, well, I think it goes back to, um, I think it goes back to there are, and this is something that we touched on in the beginning, like, if you get two or more people together Yeah, conflict is everywhere. In a room, it's everywhere and the principles are common. So it really doesn't matter where you are. Like it's the same rules apply. Yeah. And uh, and, and that is just. You know, that's an example of like, even if you don't know what you're doing, it's still there. Yeah, the principles are still at the heart. The principles are still there. Um, somebody listening to this is like, I should hire this young man to do a strategic planning engagement. How would they find you? Uh, so the website is encounterstrategies. com. You can find me at Sean at encounterstrategies. com. Pretty easy. S E A N. It's the right way. Yeah, exactly. Uh, I'm on LinkedIn, backslash, Sean Fallon, F O L L I N, so, um, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not big into Instagram or Twitter or anything, so you won't find me there. Your MySpace is no longer going. Yeah, exactly. But you did have a big Facebook following back in the day. Supposedly. Supposedly. Let's call it, huh? Yeah, cool. This was awesome. It was fun. Thank you.