EXPERIENCE 127 | Dr. Kristen Truman-Allen, Founder and Chief Experience Officer at PULP Leadership Coaching & LoCo Facilitator

Dr. Kristen Truman. Allen is the founder and Chief Experience Officer at Pulp Leadership Coaching, and a local facilitator for the Catalyst Collective chapter, A Post she's now held for about eight months. Kristen founded the business and began coaching soon after her first experience being coached during a time when she was balancing work as a ER nurse obtaining her first graduate degree and raising a five-year-old as a single parent. Kristen is an amazing human. I. She had a baby only a few days after facilitating her first chapter meeting. I was available as backup and has overcome early learning challenges and life circumstances to have an amazingly impactful career earning her PhD in human and organizational development, and has changed the trajectories of many hundreds of participants through her team coaching programs, which emphasize outdoor experiences to get people out of their comfort zones. You'll learn a lot about people in this one, and that's what life is all about. So please enjoy. As I did my conversation with Dr. Kristen Truman Atlin. Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. I'm honored today to be joined by Kristin Truman Allen. She's the founder and chief experience Officer at Pulp Leadership Coaching. Mm-hmm. As well as a loco facilitator of the Catalyst Collective chapter. So, uh, Kristen, why don't you like, just start by telling us about Pulp Leadership. What are you doing around there? Uh, what do I do with pulp Leadership? So, pulp, let's talk about pulp. Yeah. Can we talk about pulp? Let's talk about pulp. So I other not orange juice. Well, what do you think of when you say pulp? That's what I think of is I, I always buy the grove stand. Like the, like the super pulpy. Super pulpy. Yeah. That's the good stuff. Yeah. You either like pulp. Or you don't like pulp, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, pulp is the, the meaty stuff on the inside. Yeah. That holds the shape and holds the form. So when you think about the pulp of a tree, Hmm. Right. True. Like it's part of its structure. It's part of its essence. And so that's what pulp is, the essence. It's not an acronym. It's not an acronym. People under leadership performance. No. No. Okay. Keep going. Yeah. Yeah. But people make it up all the time. It's super fun. But no, it's, um, interesting. It's really about the essence of you, your organization, your, your being and tapping into that to transform whatever it is you're trying to change. So talk to me about naming it. Was it pulp right from the start? It was a, it was a, a side hustle for you at the time, right. Of sorts. So not a let's give it more a passion project. It sort of, I was an ER nurse at the time. Okay. And I was finishing my master's and, um, hired my first coach to help me kind of balance all the things that I was dealing with. Yeah. My master's degree, I had a five year old, I was a single parent and, um, working in the emergency department and so I, no stressors. Right. I found a coach and I was trying to figure all of that out. And then I realized that I had a coaching kind of approach. Mm. And. Decided over time that I wanted to become a coach. Hmm. And so I remember being in, on an Outward Bound. I was an, an intern, an Outward Bound, and went on this, um, sort of journey trying to figure out do I stay in the emergency department? I was the clinical nurse specialist. Do I be an Outward Bound instructor? Do I be a coach? Oh, so you're a participant at this point? I was a participant. Interest? Interest. Well, I was a, I was an Outward Bound student and then I was an intern, so I went to Montana for three months. And it's almost like a learned how trial project, like hey, is Outward bound for you. Right. To truly become an Outward bound instructor. Yeah, yeah. Which, so that internship shaped me for that. And, um, loved that, loved coaching and. Even in the work that I was doing in the emergency department teaching new graduates and that kind of work, I, I preferred the conversation around like, what's next? Who are you becoming? What's, what do you wanna change? How do you wanna be more effective? Those kinds of things. And I was having a lot of those debriefing kinds of conversations with, with people. Yeah. So that's how I discovered my need for coaching in my life and to continue to, yeah, to do that. And do you still get coached today? Oh, of course. Yeah. Yes. Lots of coaches around me. We do a lot of coaching training. I, um, definitely, yeah. And coached. So keep going. Sorry, pulp. You started saying. Yeah, so pulp, I can't remember exactly other thing. I, I think I was having a conversation about the essence and the meat and the stuff. Mm-hmm. And pulp just sort of came up and then, um, Dax, who is my partner, helped me create my, my symbol for that, which looks like an abstract peach or orange or something. Yeah. It's not really anything. Yeah. But it's got a little tap and, um, I haven't changed it. It's been the same since 2004. I like it. Um, so who do you serve? Like, uh, what, what are your kind of client demographics, if you will? Um, or segments, if that might be more the case.'cause I need do some like chief executive. One-on-one coaching. You do some team stuff, quite a bit of team stuff. Mm-hmm. Outdoor oriented. Yeah. But for who? And do you have demographics or, it's interesting because we all wanna get really nichey about it. Right? Right. And I'm, um, in general executives and their teams is who I support and it tends to end up being healthcare, police, fire. Mm-hmm. Because that's the referral base that I have. Yeah. And I have that kind of a lot of direct experience in that industry. Mm-hmm. And I know the language and so there's an a relatability and connection. Right. And I've done work with, um, with. Unions and I've done work with, um, oil companies, right? And so it doesn't, it's not locked into that. Ask you, it just happens to be, if I ask you, you could absolutely help me and my team do some stuff, stuff, right?'cause people are people, right? Mm-hmm. Fair enough. And enough And leadership is leadership and the essence of what you're trying to accomplish, we might not have this same kind of language. But also the benefit of that is there's a curiosity that happens when you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I usually, um, tell new nursing student, or, um, sorry, coaching people that I'm teaching that I, when I first started coaching, I didn't coach nurses. Hmm. Intentionally because I felt like it was too close. Hmm. I knew them. Yeah. Was too attached to their story and their wounds and whatever. Right. Your own trauma was almost activated by hearing it. Yes. So I intentionally didn't, and I coached like truck drivers and attorneys and people. I knew nothing about their industry so that I could approach from a curiosity that was really, really pure. Mm. And really hone that better. Do you feel it helped you then to really serve that community mm-hmm. That you are most familiar with? For sure. With fresh eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Really cool. Fresh eyes. That's an important way to say it. So are you a solopreneur or do you have subcontractors that come and help you with different retreats and things like that? Or what's your model in terms of that consultancy right now? Solopreneur. Okay. Um, intermittently I have, um, assistants, executives, you know, all those other coaches and stuff to, um, and yeah, right now I, when I have help, it's usually. Transactional kind of support. Mm-hmm. So social media support or executive system kind of helped me put together this presentation. You did this behind the scenes of while I'm going to do the work. Right. That kind of thing. And I think I'm remembering a recent conversation where you shared like some notions about podcasts and books Mm. Right. And things like that. Is that something you're talking publicly about yet? Yeah, I can talk about it. I mean, the more I talk about it, the more I'm sort of accountable. I have pressure. You have, right? Yeah. I like it. Yeah. So I have an, um, I'm working on a graphic novel around leadership and coaching, and specifically I feel like I'm on a mission to change the leadership experience and revolutionize it. Mm-hmm. What that looks like for people is different. Right. What I think would change the leadership experience for the leaders. My So you're trying to do it from their eyes? From their eyes, not from the team's eyes necessarily. Yes. So the, the book is, Experiential. So the work that I do is ideally, my preference is to be in the woods or on paddleboards or hiking or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, so the book is taking those kinds of experiences with whatever the coaching situation is. Mm-hmm. Not really a problem, but a situation. Yeah. Something that they're wanting to change in their life. Or the challenge. Or opportunity. Yep. So those things will be, um, are being portrayed graphically with, um, an individual or a team. With some coaching along that. So for people who don't have the opportunity or have access to go into the wilderness and have a whole coaching moment mm-hmm. They could maybe get that from the book. Yeah. Yeah. Will it have, like, will it be different versions? This is the story of the, the reluctant leader. This is the story of the, you know, the confused leader. Mm-hmm. The, you know, there's,'cause there's all these kinds of different leadership failings that I'm sure you're far more familiar with than I am. Yeah. So that's where the podcast piece comes into mm-hmm. Is that I am really interested in having conversation with leaders about their experience. Yeah. And so I have to be really careful not to be like, oh, I need to interview like 15 people before I can write my book. Right. I already already have the information. Um, so getting really clear about what situation am I presenting? Using a paddleboard experience. And what's the outcome of that? So that it's more coaching and not advising. Yeah. Which is not what people mostly want anyway. Yeah. They might think they do, but that's not usually what they want. Do you think, um, most CEOs or especially or team leaders in whatever capacity, do they fail for lack of skills? Do they fail for self-sabotage or personal fears? Or like what do you see as the most consistent impediment to leading well and leading well? Um, well I don't think it's about failure. Hmm. I think, I think those are two different questions. Do they fail or why do they fail? And what is their impediment? Hmm. What I see the most is that leaders are craving. Engaged employees and engaged mm-hmm. Teams that are as fired up as they are about the product that they're trying to put together. Hmm. And so the problem becomes when there's a gap in that engagement. Yeah. Um, which for me, that engagement is defined by the energy, the connections. Sure. The results. And so that's that disconnect. Are people burned out? Are they engaged? Are they committed? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and if leaders don't know how to make that connection with people to be able to get to that engagement Yeah. To keep them kind of fired up and inspired, then that, I think is probably the biggest gap. Fair. I've, I've heard and shared before that, uh, this notion that as, especially as a small business owner, a little different than firemen and doctors and medical offices, but. If your team is 80% as excited about your business as you are, you're doing it pretty good. Yeah. Uh, because it's never gonna be quite their baby in the same way it is. Is that fair? Or is that, you know, is that shooting ourselves too soft or setting a a list? And I'm not sure. I mean, I think when you look at, um, big organizations that are measuring engagement, they're looking for at least 80% engagement. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you really only get, I'm trying to think of the, like the performance piece of, you know, you're gonna have your 8% that are all the teams are made up of the same kind of composite, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like we could go outside and pick 12 people and have the same dynamics as another 12 people. Yeah. Once you get to know them and figure it out. And 80 percent's probably pretty relevant. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. Um, so I wanna, I. I guess what, what else about your current situation? I feel like we're gonna really learn a lot more about the journey.'cause you've had, you know, a lot of educational journey and, and relevant experience and just that transition. I feel like the knowing you comes best from the journey. Is that fair? Or are there other principles you'd like to talk about that's your approach to coaching or things like that? What's your special sauce in that space? Uh, I would say, you know, the outdoor experience element is probably a big part of your, I wouldn't say differentiation, but niche. Yeah, that's fair. So I think my special sauce is metaphor. Hmm. And the niche piece of it is my preference. I think you get anem when you have an embodied experience, the metaphor becomes really clear and it stays with you for a longer period of time. Yeah. So if we are having a conversation on a paddle board about your leadership experience and what you're trying to change, and then talk about. Maybe for example, your fear of falling in, right, right. Or you've never done it before. I just paddled this weekend and it was the first time in like two years and it was pretty windy and I had to like push hard and I just about fell, you know? Yeah. I'm not as good at it as a lot of people. I just don't have that balance nature. Well, when you think nature, so balance, when you're approaching the wind, what's going on in the current, how are you approaching them? All of those things can be metaphors for also what's going on in your business. Yeah. Right. Where is it windy? What feels uncomfortable? What was more comfortable two years ago that isn't now? Yeah. What needs balanced? What needs strengthened? Which part of, you know what I mean? All of those conversations become, um, telling, right? When you bring it to light and you make it conscious and then you can remember it and you're thinking about, that's like in my own experience, uh,'cause I don't really have fear. Like if I fall, it'll get wet. It's not, but I. I remember the many times I fell in before and so, you know, it's a pain you guys get back on the board and stuff. You look like a dope out there all that. Well, and it's also the first fall is really important because then it reminds you, it really doesn't matter. Right? I got wet fair, it's uncomfortable, there's more work, but make a mistake. Then I learn. Now you can flow and be in it and yeah. Fair enough. Yeah, so I feel like that, um, you know, my PhD was, was primarily focused on what happens in the coaching conversation when metaphor is used. And that's where my passion is in terms of coaching. Okay. Um, and I'm thinking, you know, we talked a tiny bit about faith and your background before we got started here, but you know, that was probably Jesus' special sauce too. Right. Is speaking in metaphor in ways that people could understand there, there are lots of metaphors that come up in Yes. In that whole. Conversation, environment and conversation. Yeah, for sure. Anyway, we'll get back to there. So, uh, let's jump with the time machine. Ready? Okay. Yes. Here we go. Oh, it goes up. Oh, it goes up and then it comes back down. Okay. Okay. Uh, so we're, uh, you're just a little baby. Where are you at? Two years old? Um, Denver Golden. I always get that kind of confused. They, I mix'em up in my head, but I was born in Colorado, Uhhuh and, um, grew up, I left. When I was about 12 or 13 to go to Michigan. I lived in Michigan until I was 25. With your family? With my family. Okay. Yep. Um, what was the family dynamic? Do you have brothers, sisters? I have a brother, a younger brother. He's two years younger than me. Okay. He's looks just like me. My sister looks just like me too. I'm way more attractive, I'm sure. And he's six foot one. Ah. And I'm five foot two, five foot three, depending on, that's funny how much I weigh, say that I'm, he's a cutie too. Yeah. So, um, I have a brother Matt, and, um, yeah, I was, my mom was remarried and so I had stepdad and a birth father and of And you're your brother Hiss of stepbrother? No, he's, uh, he's biological. Okay. So there was that kind of dynamic Yeah. Growing up and, um, we, we left to be with my stepdad's family. Oh, and his, when we went to, um, when we went to Michigan, we went to live closer to them. Closer to them so that we could support them. Gotcha, gotcha. That's how I remember it being in another. But he was your dad, but he was your dad basically? Yeah, he, right from the start, he was with me since I was about five. And so, okay. Yeah, he's, and he lives in Golden now. And, and was that a, uh, was your family like in Blue collars? Were they self-employed? Were they business people, teachers? Yeah. My mom wa did a lot of different things. She, um, was a raised kids and yeah, she was constantly learning. Like she went to stenography school and she went to, she was an agent for Northwest, um, up until she retired. And then she died in 2012. Mm-hmm. And up until then, she had done, um, What, what I remember growing up was that she was accounts receivable with Boise Cascade. So I'd go and visit and I was all like a full on office product geek. And so when there were leftovers and things, I'd get to come home. Is that what Boise Cascade is like? That It was corrugated containers, but they did, they had a lot of office products. I'm not sure what, I mean, I was young. I don't, I don't stapler heaven, I dunno. Exactly. Yeah. A stapler heaven, um, hole punches. Yeah. All about all that. I like it. I like it. Um, so my, my birth father is, was a firefighter and a retired firefighter, and my stepdad was a brick layer. Okay. So yeah, that kind of, it's a fairly blue collar kind of standard. Yep. Existence. No real examples of entrepreneurship in your family necessarily. Um, no. Not pers, I guess not just an adventurous spirit. Yeah. And it's probably only been in the last year, even though I've been self-employed all this time and started pulp in 2004, I probably wouldn't even have used the language of entrepreneur. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know how to unpack that. Think. Is it because of kind of the slow, like you kind slowly worked your way into being fully not reliant on paychecks and stuff like that and just didn't really find a space. Yeah. I think it, I think in my mind, entrepreneur meant I was that you were building something and creating it into the world widget style or, um, making something Yeah. And raising capital and this and that, something. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. But that's shifted now. You do think of yourself as an entrepreneur. I think I have, I have an understanding that that's what it actually is. Right. Fair, fair enough. Okay. Yeah, and even I. Like, yes. I think there's, you know, realtors or coaches or even investment advisors, they kind of build themselves a job. It isn't creating something, a product thing or something like that. Right. And you're doing something, you, you're bringing some new ideas in this world. And especially if you pursue kind of these books, contents, podcasts, that's very entrepreneurial. Yeah. You know, it's bringing new ideas. Well, true. And when you, all of what I do now as a coach has been, has come together based on all of my other experiences. So having totally right. So having nursing language and healthcare language and understanding that from a business and a being experience perspective and my outward bound experience and my coaching experience. Totally. And I did get to be a firefighter for a little bit in Rec Feather when I first moved here. I love it. I know. We're like, this time machine's going all over the place. It's okay though, because that's part of, uh, the entrepreneur's journey like, Barely anybody makes anything up new outta whole cloth. Mm. You know, Facebook wouldn't exist except for MySpace having existed. Right. Or whatever. I don't know. But like, there making, there aren't that many new ideas. You're kind of pluck different pieces from here and there, and probably even some of your firefighting time informs the way you approach certain clients now. Probably, you know, we don't know. Anyway. Yeah. So you're uh, uh, so now I'm in Michigan, moving to Michigan. You're a teenager or just about a teenager? You 12. I'm 11 or 12. Okay. Seventh grade, whatever that is. Yeah. Your little brother, crazy town. Pretty close with your little brother? Uh, no, not partly. He looks like me, but he is annoying. Just like little brother. Yeah. We beat each other up a lot. Yeah. Um, yeah. And then when we went there I went to a, um, school called Temple Christian Academy. And so I had left the public school system and then I went there and I went to this one room school where you are working out of Wow. It's called Pace. You're working out of workbooks and Oh, wow. Yeah, and, and I did that. Seventh through 10th, I think. Was that good? Was it, um, didn't know any better. You know, I think it was good. I thought it was good at the time, and then I shifted back to the public school when I, I really wanted to be more involved in extracurricular kinds of things that were not available to me Yeah. In this small environment. And we're talking, so is your family part of this kindergarten like church that was part of this school kind of thing then? We were, I think we knew people here in the church and then we went there because it was recommended and yeah. That's what we did. Yeah. I don't know the decision making specifically. Yeah. Um, it's so interesting being a parent now, when you think about decisions that your parents made that you had no idea why Totally. They were making the decisions that they were making or how, and I'm super inclusive with the kids about decisions and conversations. Yeah. And how we're all functioning. But 50 years from now, will they be also saying, I have no idea why we were doing that, even though, even though they were involved. Yeah. So how many students were in this school? Oh, it was fifth. It was kindergarten through 12th grade. Like three people would graduate a year. Wow. All in one room? I graduated cubicles a class of five. Oh yeah, in North Dakota. Which our high school was like 50, 60 kids typically. Um, it's intimate, but I've met very few people that went to a smaller environment than that. Yeah. Was it all girls or was it No, no. Mixed. Is that mixed? We worked in little cubicles. We weared our, wore our little uniforms. I do like the concept of uniforms. Um, But yeah, I, you know, you'd finish one subject and move the Velcro strip from one side to the other side of your cubicle. Yeah. And they all matched your, and you'd rave raise a Christian flag if you had a question and an American flag if you needed to use the restroom and Oh gosh, yeah. Wow. Very parochial style. Yeah, it was very, I suppose very structured. Very coordinated. Yeah. Yeah. And then I went to the public school for 10th and 11th and 12th grade, so that was really shocking. And I thought the school was good for me until I got to high school and realized, From a pop culture perspective, how much I missed even I know nothing even right. Or classic literature. Right, right. We weren't, I wasn't reading any of those things. I was Interesting. Yeah. Just big gaps in your game. Mm-hmm. If you will. My, my wife came from a fairly, uh, well conservative Christian kind of background, if you will, but like, born again style and so like mm-hmm. She didn't get to watch The Simpsons or nothing when we were growing up and things, and so there's just all these, these holes in her like pop culture knowledge base. Yeah. Uh, and it's, it's, you know, it's just interesting and that's kind of what you realized when you went to that public school. It's like, oh, I missed out on a lot. Mm-hmm. Even though I loved it in some ways, a lot of attention. Yeah. And you get a chance to just be who you are I think. Mm. In the moment. Yeah. Um, not so much herd pressure in that little small, mm-hmm. Environment. Well, and we did a bit of moving around from the time I was. In fifth grade until 10th grade. So I had changed schools probably four or five times Oh wow. In that really formative, strange timeframe. Mm-hmm. And I think that helped me really be able to engage and be wherever I am and figure out how to be on the outside, on the inside. Yeah. And which probably influence influences my ability to facilitate and curiosity, I would imagine, and all of those things. For sure. Yeah. Being comfortable in that strange environment. Mm-hmm. Kind of opportunity. Mm-hmm. Remind me if you, me mentioned it already, but where in Michigan was this? In Clawson, which was Okay. Just outside of Detroit. So suburb of Detroit basically. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. So what's next? And what, what was that like? What were you known for in the yearbook from high school? If there was a, what was I known for? Um, or among your friends. Well, I did, I was drill team. I was drill team captain. Okay. That was fun. Um, drill team is, Dance. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Dance. Yep. Yep. My, my nieces both had extensive dance careers. It's pretty impressive what you can train your body to do with a little practice. Mm-hmm. I mean, I couldn't, you could, you just have to train your body with a little practice. Yeah. A lot more balance than I have. There's that word again. So, balance coming up. College, I suppose is on your radar, or what was, was that conversation for you? I went, I went to college, um, and thought I was gonna do microbiology. Oh. And then went to a lab and realized that there'd be no conversations. This is where microbiologists work. Yeah. This isn't gonna work for me. That's blame. Yeah. I ended up going to nursing school, um, in Detroit. Okay. There was a program, um, it was a diploma program, which I don't, I don't think, I don't, I might be wrong, but I don't think there are any other diploma programs in. The nation now. So it's a two year program, um, two years year, all the way through. Wow. And then there had an articulation. Don't even need an undergrad before that or nothing. No. And then there was an articulation program with the University of Michigan to get your bachelor's. Wow. As soon as you were done with that. So I was a nurse. Oh, wow. And then I went back and got my, um, bachelor's. Oh, that's interesting. U interesting. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. And then boom. And then, um, I had my first baby Corley. Oh. Um, I was pregnant when I graduated with Oh, you fell ins fell somewhere along this way. I got married to Scott and we were, um, and had, yeah, so it was, I got married in there, junior college and Right in that. Yep. After college I got married. Well, so nursing school and then college. So then I was probably 20, I was 23 when I got married. Seems so young now. Right? Um, now that I have a 27 year old, oh my God. Um, yeah. And then we moved back here. To, we moved to Red Feather. Oh. And I was working at p v H. Was he from here or something? Or what was the connection to Colorado? No, I think just mountains. We had come back and forth and been hunting. Oh. And so there's a lot. Oh, I, I need to hear more about that. Yeah. I had a, um, a little experience hunting for a bit. Um, so we would, we would come back the season of hunting the season. He was the, he was the cheerleader for it. And you were like, okay. Sounds nice. Yeah. Something like that. I mean, I was, I've always been very outdoorsy and Yeah. Yeah. Um, and very physical. Doesn't seem like you'd be very gut animaly necessarily though. But Yeah, I approached it from a, a pretty spiritual, um, reflective place. Yeah. Even then, um, but then once I had, once I had a baby, I couldn't do it. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I would carry around a rifle, I'd look at stuff, but I just was done. Yeah. I haven't hunted in a lot of years, but I, you know, like we're made to eat meat. Kind of as humans, most of us, I don't, maybe you're a vegetarian or something at this point, but, and like the factory farming is pretty gross. And so really almost the most ethical way you can feed yourself is to shoot animals as long as they're not in short supply. Mm-hmm. Or whatever. Right. And so I reflect on that when I think about hunting. Yeah. The, the process of, well, one being completely away for two weeks was what it took for me because we would drive to Colorado and be away for a couple of weeks. Right. And unplug and be in the woods and watch the sun come up and, I mean, you're like hunting elk or something. Um, deer. Okay. Uh, I, I hunted elk one year. I didn't see anything. Yeah. Um, and I, I was successful once I had, you know, I even put my antlers on my wall. Nice. Nice. Yeah. Had a moment and, you know, took care of the meat and, and it was, An important process, I think, and the process of being and watching and being still and was really what it was about for me. Yeah. But then also that I did this thing, I was capable of doing this thing and yeah, I was able to have my own food. Did you have a lot of outdoor experience leading up to this or was this kinda your introduction to that kind of outdoor saturation kind of thing, like along your junior high or high school, things like that? That didn't, wasn't part of it. Mostly. I mean, there was a lot of, I have memories of, um, driving up lookout toward Lookout Mountain and driving near in canyons and the family pulling over. We loved little road trips and pulling over and I'd climb the sides of the, you know, by the river and my mom would be holding her Brad. Right, right. Um, so I had that, that in me. Um, and then fishing and. Yeah, some hiking, but not really. Yeah, that was the first real immer kind of stuff. That was the most immersion. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So you show up in Red Feather, and this is quite a while ago now. Yeah, that was 27 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And Red Feather was probably a lot different back then, or maybe it wasn't. I don't even, I haven't been back in the, in the town of Red Feather or what is it actually? Yeah, the Village. The Village, yeah. Yeah. Village. Um, I haven't been up there other than, other than to go hike like Lady Moon and Mount Margaret. Oh, it's so fun. We spend time up there regularly. We were up there for the weekend, 4th of July. Yeah, I, I saw that. Yeah. So, uh, did you still do the parade and, uh, you know, we didn't hit the parade if, if there was, but they had amazing fireworks, like some of the best I've seen. Yeah. So, uh, and they shoot'em right over the lake of course. And people gather around for miles around. They used to be amazing traffic jams and Yeah. No, they, they knock it out of the park for fireworks. So. Nice. Yeah, we would ride, drive the, I would drive the fire truck down. Like in their little parade. And that's your, uh, that other little fire department time there. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. So were you working at this time or did you have some time to be mostly mom or? No, I was working. Working, yep. I, um, went right back to work and was working in the emergency room working nights. And then Corley was five weeks old when we moved here. And I had a job at P V H already when we came here. And then, um, I did that for a number of years. I was working nights and then I worked days and then I became an inst, um, an educator and a charge nurse. And then that evolution took me to graduate school and I became, um, I went to nurse, I went to U N C While you're working? While I was working. Okay. And, um, was a graduate assistant and, and raising littles. Mm-hmm. Busy days. And at that point in there, I was divorced and moved to Fort Collins and. Got my graduate degree in nursing education thinking that I would be off in the summers. I'd teach nursing, I'd be off in the summers and, um, work in the fall when Corley was in school. Yeah. And, um, Coley's dad went to Antarctica for oh six months. Okay. And so had an Antarctica experience. I had some other family. Who You did, did that? No, I didn't. Okay. Scott did. And so he did that and, but he didn't take the kids, he didn't take Corley. Yep. And then, um, sorry. One, yeah. He didn't take Corley. She was, stayed with me. And then I ended up doing the, the clinical nurse specialist tract and stayed as a clin in the ER and didn't end up coaching full-time, or not coaching, um, teaching full-time at the university, which is what I thought I was gonna do. Yeah. And I just didn't. That was the track you were on, it just mm-hmm. Didn't really work out. No. I, as a graduate assistant, I had the opportunity to teach some things and I learned about myself that I don't like to do the same thing more than several. Like a handful of times. Yeah. Yeah. Or if I'm doing it, I wanna do it differently. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, that's probably the white type in you. Maybe the uh, like how did that kind of teaching instinct come out? Like during,'cause you were an ER nurse, right? Mm-hmm. Like how did that kind of evolution, were there people that said, Hey, you really understand this well, I think you should teach this next person. Or like, how did you identify that within yourself? Or was it you or some other people in your life? Yeah, that's an insightful question. There were, um, I was doing a bit of teaching in Michigan in the ER before I came. Of course I played teacher when I was a child. I do remember that amount of play. Yeah. So I think that was part of me. Um, originally I wanted to be a teacher mm-hmm. Before I went to nursing school. Um, and. I thought I would teach biology. Yeah. And then didn't. And so, and then how the education thing specifically around the new graduate program at P V H, how that came forward is I was a charge nurse. We were brainstorming, we were like, there's a nursing shortage. What's our plan? Right. And at the time you didn't hire nurses right into the emergency room. They were all required to go into a med surg floor. Right. Learn general nursing and then come to a specialty unit. Mm-hmm. And, um, so there was a, some brainstorming about like, we should do this thing. Can we just scrap that rule that we're good? Yeah. I, I'm kidding. Yeah. So we created it, right? Yeah. So we created a program, basically a training thing where you could put a greenie in and set them up for success. Yep. Cool. And I got to do that and probably. Bring them along on their own course of learning much faster than they would otherwise too. For sure. Because the language we would use is, um, really taking a vine and training it how you wanted it to be as a baby vine as opposed to trying to take a, a formed vine. Yeah. And retrain direction. The pulpa is stiff. Yes. The pulp is stuff for sure. Oh, well that's cool. That's, uh, and did, like, did the organization support your education too? Did they send you to school or pay for support your education as well? There was tuition reimbursement. Mm-hmm. That's, and I had some scholarships and I was a graduate assistant, so that all got taken care of. So how long were you a single mom then? Um, well, I had a partner after a bit. Um, okay. But I So single in the sense of true parenting partnership. Yeah. Like a solo raising this child. Yeah. Getting all this education, doing all these shifts. Yeah. That was probably, hmm. Probably about seven years. Wow. Seven years or so. Ooh. And then I met, um, so then that relationship dissolved and um, I was doing my own thing. I'd graduated with my masters and I was doing Outward Bound and trying to kind of figure all of that out. And then I met Dax, ah, and Dax and I have been together almost 20 years. Oh wow. Yeah. Well, like who supported you during that time of. Just you, like, not support like in the, like a partner sense or whatever, but did you have a community kind of like just childcare and this and that kind of, and just patching it together? Yeah. And my mom had moved from Michigan. Okay. They had moved back and so I had a little bit of that support and um, Mike and Patty, my bio dad and his wife were supportive in, in that timeframe too. And so family piece was super messy. Not you're as strong and powerful as anybody I know, but it had to have been a big lift. Well, during that time, well, I also worked, I worked three twelves or then when I was in graduate school, like I worked less time and so I could coordinate that a little bit. Yeah. And then Corley, Coley's dad was a co-parent. Oh, fair. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. I just, it just seems like, I don't know, I'm an old guy now, but, and I've never probably had as much energy as you, but, um, it just seems like a really challenging set of circumstances to, uh, Continue just really advancing your career and your education while raising this little, so hats off to you. Yeah, well she was, um, I went to school when she was five mm. So I think we had, we could do school together. Right, right, right. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. So like, take me to the next stage. You're now working closer to going back to school then, are you, you? Yeah. Take me Not quite. So that, that 2004, so what were you And next you merged your lives pretty quickly. Is that fair? It took me a bit. I was kind, I, I was kind of slow and had a lot of rules and um, it was a coup. We, it took a whole summer or so, and then I finally committed and then we had, um, some, then Dax proposed to me on the Golden Gate Bridge. It was brilliant. Nice. And the plan was to. Get married in Spain and instead we ended up having Pele. So Dax and I have three, four kids together now. Pele, Gabriel Lucero, and now Vincenzo, who's six months old. Yeah. So in that timeframe though, personally and professionally, I was, um, still working in the emergency department for a bit and trying to figure that out. And then I decided to leave that environment and then I took a simulation job with Banner Health. Okay. And got to do this Western region Creative. Here's this human patient stimulator this, tell me more. Do you know about these? No, I don't know a thing about it. Yeah. So the simulators like fake humans. Yeah. Here's the symptoms and stuff. What do you wanna do? Mm-hmm. And they're, so they've made them and built them so, Interactive and integrated in a way that you can simulate a whole patient care situation, including giving a medication. Oh, no doubt. And it's computer programmed. So then if you've made a mistake, then the physiology changes no way in the computer body. Right. And you can see it on the practice giving the right dosage. Mm-hmm. Practice evaluating the difference between gout and psoriasis, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Usually it's more critical care. Right, right, right. Er room stuff that can be part of it. Right. Critical care or I c u, um, traumas interesting. And they use it in the military. They use it in healthcare and it was a, a fairly new thing at the time and I got to learn how to use it and then create a program that traveled through the Western region and, and really, um, help people be able to do team Yeah. Work and. Learn. It's really, really good for new graduates. It's good for, yeah, really anyone who's trying to figure out how to interact, just like airplanes, you know, better to learn the simulator Yes. Than it's, uh, there's a company in Loveland that's kind of a, uh, I wouldn't say it's a startup, but it's like new skin or maybe, or maybe it's not new skin, but they make fake skin to teach people how to like, put needles in Interesting. Properly Interesting. And different things like that. Yeah. The more real life you can make it, the more, so what happens is if people hesitate when they're not confident. Mm. Even if they're competent. Right. And so getting people to that experiential play, so there's the experience comes up, here's how you drop, comes up, bump. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Here's how you start an iv. It's not gonna be exact, but it's also gonna be part of a whole process. Right. And so you're doing that at the same time someone else is doing something else and you're having to deal with your emotions and the whole thing. So I got to do that. It was, so you're going like around to different hospitals and ERs and stuff, and they're, their youngsters are going through this kind of simulation game and, and experience. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And in partly even to evaluate, right? To evaluate and also to, um, train people. Yeah. Teach you techniques or that there techniques, new processes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very cool. So if you're implementing a change in protocol, it's a good way to also remind people the change in the protocol. Now, is this a different company? Did Banner pluck you out of P V H for this kind of thing or No, I had already left P V H. Okay. I actually had submitted my resignation, didn't have a plan. I was ready to be done. Okay. And this was, yeah, tax was like, what are you doing? Um, and then applied for a job in banner and, um, The, the leader who hired me was brilliant. Is that Margaret? It's Snow, uh, Gail Inger. Okay. She was working in, um, is it Margaret, the gal you introduced me to? Um, what's her name from Banner and, and Cheyenne. Oh, you're talking about, um, Margot. Margot, yeah. Yeah. Close enough. So, sorry, Margo, if you're listening. Yeah, I know. I got to work with Margot again later. So I worked with her at P V H when I was Oh, okay. There, that timeframe. And then later on in Cheyenne. Um, but Gail hired me, said We have a mannequin. A simulator in a box. I need somebody to make it work. Can you do this? She hired me. I went right away to training. Like my first, my first week I went to Florida to learn how to use these things. Good thing she never asked me if I knew how to use the remote control on a TV because she might not have hired me. Um, but super, super fascinating and really, so it brought in my coaching. Mm-hmm. Like at that point I had been learning about coaching, I'd been coached. Sure. Yeah. And also had started to become a coach. I had started the coaching training with the ins, um, the Institute for Life Coach Training. Okay. Yeah. For with Pat Williams. Okay. So I started that and I was in the middle of all of that, made this transition, and so I was coaching on the side. At that point, pulp was a thing. I was getting clients and I was part-time being a simulation coordinator and then the simulation director, and then I went to Cheyenne and worked full-time there. I see, I see. Tell me about those first clients for pulp. Hmm. Like who was it that hired this relative noob with a full-time job and whatever. Yeah. Who were the first clients? So word of mouth. So I had some clients that were referred to me from people that I knew, um, with from Outer Bound. Okay. And friends were what skipped that chapter. Do we need to jump in the time machine and go back to that or bound chapter a little bit? I mean, we talked about it a little bit, but was that a big part of your, it's kind of still time span. It's sort of in that same timeframe. 2004 until now has been my, like, I think nursing was my foundational, like here's my where and some language and some growing up and learning how human beings are. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then, um, outward Bound happened. I, when I graduated with my master's, In nursing education is when I took an Outward bound course. Okay. So I was a student and then an intern, and then the next year I went back as an intern. And then after that I was a, an instructor for, you were, um, a number of years, but that's not a, not a real job. That's like a, a couple of excursions, seasonal mm-hmm. A year kind of thing or whatever. Especially since I had kids. So I was, and I had a full-time job. Right. So I was working around, that's what I was wondering, where did you fit that in? Yeah. But yeah, just here and there you go. You know, on the end of the seasons I'd go for a couple of weeks. Yeah. So training was usually in May and then I would do a course in the summer and then I'd go to training in May and another course in the next summer. And, um, so I did. I prefer, I did career renewal courses. Mm-hmm. So they, those were people who were 35 plus Yeah. On an Outward Bound course and women's courses. And then I did one course that like the youngest person had an age waiver and they were 17. Oh. And so 17 to 20, yeah. Just kiddos trying to figure out what they wanna do. Yeah. That was not my favorite. I prefer the, the, yeah. The older groups fair. It was, yeah. Okay. Contrast with me or, or I guess maybe inform me or reflect on what Outward Bound brought to your, to your current practice and just to your awareness that like your master's and eventual PhD in human and organizational development didn't, or was there anything, maybe not, I'm just wondering if there's a, like the, your, the natural element certainly got fit in there, but Yeah. The natural element fit in there. There's so much that happens in a big experience or in a physical experience Hmm. That we remember forever. Hmm. Right. The first time you do have an epic kind of adventure. Yeah. I remember my first raft trip. Yeah. You know, for sure. Yeah. What, what's the, what are the key things that stand out for you? Oh, just my, my aunt Bobby's laugh when she just about got knocked out and just pictures and just the experience of being there with loved ones, not knowing what this is gonna be like at all. Uh, so all those things really. Right. So experience is the story you're telling at the di dinner table, right? Totally. Or the story that you're telling in your podcast conversation Sure. Or whatever that is. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, um, those experiences that happen are embodied, they're somatic, they're, they're penetrating you forever. Mm-hmm. And the insights that come when you are having a conversation about it. Really making it, finding the parallels. Mm-hmm. The metaphor that's there is incredibly powerful in a, in a way that is even more than what a metaphor can do in, in your conversation. Sure, sure. And I didn't really know that that was a thing about me until I was on my PhD journey and I Yeah, yeah. Started realizing I was using metaphor in my conversation, Uhhuh, and then was like, oh, I need to study this. I really need to figure out what, what happens. Because I didn't get taught it specifically in Right. Coaching school. But they say to use it and they say, use your intuition, but they don't really say how. Right. Well, and they, like, even in like your master's program, they probably knew that having experienced cemented things mm-hmm. Or whatever like that was known. Known. Mm-hmm. But the combination of kind of outdoor and metaphor to bring it back to business is kind of where your thesis came into, right. It seems, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It all kind of came together. And even the human patient simulation, having that experience, you're experiencing something, you're holding the space to have a safe experience. Yeah. And then making meaning of it. And it's really something when somebody makes a mistake, even in a simulation lab. Right. Because it feels like you made a mistake on a human being. Sure. And to hold the space, to be able to, um, to learn from that and not have shame Yeah. Is powerful. Yeah. And so it's all the same. Yeah. Your shame, you carry that around. Mm-hmm. But you know, if you, if you learn, okay, this is what you do next time, right. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Sorry to explore that. So, so it all makes sense. Some eventually, somehow. Yeah. Yeah. Right. All these different kinds of things have come together. Yeah. I love it. Um, and so I guess highlights, uh, elsewise along that kind of journey, was there, so you were, I guess it seems like you were kind of in a combination of journey of, of learning. Earning as an employee and, and growing as, as pulp. Yes. All during that time and maybe not doing any of'em super hard. Were you part-timer at all during this, your work environment? No, I was part-time. Um, yes. So simulation was part-time Sure. When I was doing that. And so I was doing part-time simulation. I was coaching a bit and I was, um, doing Outward Bound intermittently. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's when I was, I was at a, the Simulation Foundation fundraiser at McKee. Mm. And you know, we've got all these people there and I'm demonstrating the simulators. We've got a team kind of doing this dramatic pre-production and Yeah. Yeah. Super fun. And then, um, Gail, yeah. Hadn't then gone to Cheyenne. Back to, yeah, back to Gail. And she had left and went to Cheyenne and she showed up there and was like waving at me at the simulation center and talked to me about Cheyenne and that's how I ended up at Cheyenne Regional Medical Center. Okay. And then your, your title there was like Chief People Officer, chief Experience Officer, or something along that line. Yeah. Eventually. What or, yeah. Talk to me about, I guess that chapter and the journey.'cause this is a, it sounds like it's a big chapter, a full-time job again, right? Yep. That was a huge nine year chapter where, um, I dropped simulation. I stopped actively looking for coaching clients. Okay. So I still had some, um, and I could maintain that, but I wasn't running a business. Yeah, yeah. Trying to. Trying to keep doing that. So when I went to Cheyenne, I was, um, the director of learning and development. Okay. And so I was doing organization development work and coaching work. Built a coaching program Wow. Coaching leaders inside the organization and, um, kind of working on my own leadership that had to have felt cool, like having that level of trust kind of right out, fresh off your PhD and stuff too. Right. Well, so you weren't even there yet. I didn't even have my PhD at that point. Oh, wow. Yeah, I was working on my master's Yeah. In, um, human and organization systems. And Good on Gail to spot that level of talent in you at that point. So, Gail, if you're listening, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and sorry to interrupt. Yeah, it was, it was fantastic. I'm just fantastic. Reflecting on, on what, how big of a door that was for you and how natural of a fit it was for you, what you were developing into being. Yep. And I got to like learn how to do that at the same time that I was, I was in my master's and I. Growing that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Yeah. So then I got to be the inpatient administrator for several years. So, oh. Even though I didn't have any er nursing experience, I was, had been doing the culture work and the team development, leadership development piece. Yeah. And then I had an opportunity to be the leader of all the inpatient units at the hospital. Very cool. So then I had a, a team of other people. And so there's that brilliance of I'm not the expert in what you do. Right. Show me what you, tell me what you need. And being curious as opposed to coming in and say, go do it this way. Right. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's probably one of our biggest resonant places, uh, since we've started our conversation and relationship, is knowing that we're not gonna be the expert at everything. Mm-hmm. And, um, and appreciating the, the, the wisdom and the amazing intellect that others bring in. Yeah. Um, so talk to me about, so you basically kind of put pulp. On, not on pause, but definitely on the no more growth kind of thing for quite a while. Nine years. Yes. So, and what I was doing was growing my coaching. So I was coaching inside the organization. Right. I was, um, building a coaching program. I was accumulating coaching hours. Oh, oh, right. I was getting to be a better coach. Yeah. Yeah. I just wasn't, it wasn't working independently. Yeah. They were just doing it as a salary for Banner. Yep. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. And then, um, then a couple of years before I left Cheyenne Regional, I was the Chief Experience Officer, which was really all about the customer and still culture work. Right. Customer and employee journey and employee is kind of what I read. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So kind of how do people experience this organization depending on, no matter where they come in at. Yeah. And listening to that is really powerful, right? You can survey it, but we also did listening sessions where we were listening to people around. Yeah. What, what was the experience? What happened for you? And yeah, how can we make that better? Did you have infrastructure and support there? I assume that involved like a lot of surveys and mm-hmm. Just gathering of real data and stuff, which probably your PhD and Masters prepared you at least for that part. But you're making up a lot of stuff outta whole cloth here, or did you, was there, is Banners a pretty big organization? Did they support you in that or were you creating new stuff in some ways? So Cheyenne Regional was, wasn't part of, wasn't Banner at that point weren't weren? Yeah. Oh, I see. So that was like, it was just people moving around and then very independent at that time. Yeah. Gotcha. Um, but there were, there were people who, um, who understood the data. The quality team who was kind of putting, putting it together in dashboards and mm-hmm. And all of that. So there was quite a bit of infrastructure already. For sure. My role was really to create what is the whole, the system Yeah. Of that going to look like, how are we kind of, here's what we have communicating it and how do we make it better? Yeah. Boom. Yeah. So take me now, this seems like this is starting to get pretty close to like, departure from there and what was the, the impetus for that decision? So, I, it was interesting. I was a, it was at a board meeting. Okay. So imagine me in a board meeting, um, are you on the board or you're, yes. You can't see me now reporting to the board in some capacity kind of thing. I, so, It was actually as an executive team meeting, and I think there were some board members present, and we were having a whole day financial conversation about like, okay, a budget meeting. Hmm. What are we gonna do? How are we, what's next? Um, and we were having conversations about who are the people who can do things in addition to what they are already doing? And, and I had been thinking about in my role as the Chief Experience Officer, because it was culture, and a lot of that is about patient experience data that's broken out into like physician components and, um, case management components and nursing and communication. And without going into the details of all of that Fair, it's segmented in a way that the executive team could own parts and pieces of that. Okay. Now that there's a system in place. Mm. If they, if they saw their part of it as opposed to it being Kristen's thing Mm, then it would actually be beneficial. Could shift ownership. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we're in this budget meeting and I was like, huh. I think we should eliminate my position. Right? Yeah. I didn't have a chance to talk, talk Dax about this yet. I just Right. Had this moment. There was nobody to process it with. I love your authenticness though. It's like, I mean, I think this is the right thing to do. So I went to the C E O who was interim at the time and said, I think we should eliminate my position, which I think was a very surprising Oh sure. Conversation for, yeah. For him. And he said, um, well, well tell me what that would look like. Like what do you mean? And I said, well, it would eliminate an executive level position and it would deepen and penetrate the work that we're trying to do. Because you'd have ownership on this different level. Yeah. You'd actually make the ownership that I've shown push it out into the corridors, if you will. Yes. So he said, okay, I like it. Let's, but I wanna, I wanna keep you contracted to do some of these other things that you're doing with the, with the teams. Oh. And so, um, so you could recover some of that income.'cause that was probably like a six figure, well into six figure income kind of situation. This gave me an opportunity to ease into being independent. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I had, that was my first contract. I had to work out the contract pieces, like what does this all look like? Here's what it looks like on my end. Yeah. Yeah. They made theirs negotiate the terms, all of that. So I got to relaunch pulp in that way. Yeah. Yeah. And figure out some business systems to make it work. And cme Now what, what, what year was this? This was, um, 2016. Okay. Which also was the same time that DAX was no longer gonna be stay at home parent and went to. Um, police academy. Oh. And had been a, a firefighter and so shifted. So that shifted our role. So then I became anchor parent. Ah. And, um, yeah, that, so that's, that was in 2016. That was part of the, the reason for that even. Yeah. I, in some ways maybe that was circulating. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, so it all happened at the same time. Fascinating. Yeah. Because I suspect you and I didn't probably meet until 2018 or 19. Mm-hmm. It was definitely pre covid. I remember, do you remember our first, uh, walk and Talk conversation? I do. Um, it was, and we met at Realities for Children. Yep. I remember that. And, uh, so, but you were really kind of back in rebuilding mode of pulp at that point. Like, uh, with littles are at least off my ankles for the moment and I can start building my client base in this side of my, my world again. Yes. Interesting. I was looking at some different strategies to, to build and kind of what is my business framework and what does this stall need to look like? And then was offered an opportunity at, um, at another organization at St. Anthony North Okay. To be the director of their inpatient unit for a period of time. Oh, nice. So in my mind I thought, okay, I will, um, I mean, I've got my business, like I don't wanna work for someone else. Right, right, right, right. And so we talked about contracting, but what they, they had, um, a number of new managers and, uh, really felt like a hands-on and in-person was better for a period of time. So I did that for about nine months, and then the c e o said, okay, the things that you're doing with this team, can you do it? Across the organization as a consultant. And so I moved back into Cool, um, pulp full time. Yeah. Um, after doing that nine month old intro thing and you're like, yeah. For more money. Yeah. It was great. So I got to, that gave me a little bit more, um, stability as I was continuing to grow and That's cool. And then I had been building my framework, so I got to work it Yeah. Inside that organization. And then I think one thing that's, do the work now thing interesting about your journey in a, in a coach leadership space is I don't, I barely hear a, a notion of that thought that I'm not sure what I have to bring to the sauce or to, to add to the conversation. Like you, you knew from the, your very first client that you had some, some special skills and talents that have been only built over time. Whereas a lot of coaches, when they first start their career, it's like, Uh, I don't even know if I'm useful for anybody. You know, and they care. They, they wear that on their sleeve sometimes and stuff, and it doesn't seem like you ever face that kind of uncertainty. Yeah. Thank you for that. I think that uncertainty only comes in, will people buy it? Right? Right. Will, like I have such a specific thing that I do with the experiential piece that, you know, not every organization's willing to take their team to go snowshoeing. Right. For six miles. Yeah. And have a big conversation about that's 500 bucks more than coming into a boardroom and talking to our people. Yeah. Also, there's so much, I don't know, I could go on and on and on about not being in the boardroom. Oh, the fictional, the, the, when I say stick, I mean just the, like you said, the stickiness of that training. Like everybody will remember that snowshoeing leadership moment. For the rest of their life, for their whole career. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And the stories that they'll tell as a team and the bonding that happens and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's cool. It's pretty cool. It's nice to be able to carry that around. Uh, you've probably had a similar, you know, experience to my own where with the, the local think tank stuff where you just, you see all these stories over time that where you've actually made a difference. Mm-hmm. In some organization, somebody's business, somebody's life. Yeah. Well, and I was super grateful that in those organizations that I got to work inside of, I got to experiment with that style. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we went on a yurt trip and we'd go, um, the very first thing that, that I had, the very first event that I did actually, we, I wasn't even hired there yet in Cheyenne. We had canoes. We were at a re retreat, had a whole event, um, using canoes out in the middle of a lake. Took away the, took away the, um, battles. The what? The paddles. The paddles. Yeah. Took away the paddles, gave them, you know, a feather and some other things, and said, you have to get out to the middle of the canoe and come on back. And so I had a partner doing that and we, we made it happen. So those kinds of things got to keep happening and, um, really build that, fill my passion for it, but also build some credibility around it too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So your first real interaction with local think tank was, I think last June. I mean, in terms of, other than us just kind of meeting and liking each other and stuff like that, but you, I think it was June of last year when you came to Bettina's chapter it was, and did a, a HIE thing or whatever. A HIE thing. Yeah. And, uh, and then, Shortly thereafter, two months later, Bettina, uh, who was the facilitator of, of your chapter said, Hey, I'm moving to Australia and I think you should hire Kristen to be me. Uh, talk to me about that experience. Um, maybe both even in entertaining that notion for the first time, but also like what it's been like after six months in that chair. Okay. Well, I remember af after we met pre Covid and Right. I, we met talking about the local think tank in my business. I was trying to decide do I need a board? Mm. Or do I need a peer advisory group? I didn't know the language. I was kinda recruiting you as a member at that time. Yeah. And I was thinking about it. Yeah. And I was like, oh, could this really be helpful? And then I'd get really busy and then I didn't feel like I had time. And then I came to a couple free things. Mm-hmm. How many can you have before that? You'd have to pay for that? They're free forever. Okay. But we just won't really pick your issue if you've been there for a bunch of times. Okay. So I'd been to a couple free things and I think. Bettina was at one of them. Mm-hmm. And I had been in, um, England, and I got a message from Betina saying, Hey, I've got this event. Would you be interested in doing your thing? Um, at, at this, at this event, and it's Friday. And I, this was a Monday. I was like landing back inua us on Monday. And um, so I called her and we talked about it and I happened to be available and said, yes, I'll absolutely do that. So really what that was, we started, we had an opportunity. They were, they already had a hike planned, but because it's work that I do, she said, come do your thing. Right. Right. So I met with them, met with them for the first time. I didn't realize that, uh, they would potentially be, I don't think Betina even knew yet at that time. I'm not sure. She had called me not long after and said, Hey, um, what would you think about this? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we had a great adventure. It wasn't super long, it wasn't super intense. Um, but there was a lot going on in the conversation we did. I had them draw their metaphor. They probably were like, who is this person? Why is she here? We show up at a trail head, she's got paper and markers and says, draw a picture. Um, so that's what we did. I had them draw their experience, their current experience as leaders, and then we went hiking and I observed for what I heard them wanting as a new experience and watched to see what would hap what was come kind of coming up in the, in the path. And so then we'd pause and debrief it and talk about it. And so then fast forward a couple of months, then we started having conversations about like, could this work as a facilitator? Yeah. Um, what is your interest? And, and I love it. And I love it because, well, you have to know that I'd also, the day before Bettina called me, okay. I'd had a coaching conversation with my coach and said, I really need a team. Hmm. I'm lonely. Well, I just do really well. Yes. Something like that. I don't know if at that point I was specifically lonely, but I was, yeah. I do really well when I'm conducting, when more brains are around mm-hmm. And feeding into the conversation and I can translate and Yeah. And lots of different expertise and whatever, and Yeah. Kind of facilitating orchestra style, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so I got really clear in that conversation, and the next day, Bettina had called me and said, what do you think about this before I talk to Kurt? Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, so I, I love it. I like that I'm not the leader of the team. I'm just facilitating. Yeah. Um, and kind of holding that space. We're talking and my hands are out. Like I'm holding a big circle or something. Sure. Um, I would think more a beach ball. A beach ball. Yes. Oh, yeah. Circles are hard to hold. They're just so two dimensional. Anyway, I digress. I love that. Um, So hold'em like this. They're all so different. Yeah. Right? They're Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Each, each, each member is different and the perspective that they're bringing is different. And so it's easier to get away from blind spots when you've got someone else who's seeing them for you. Yeah, totally. I like to say, uh, we can see each, see ourselves more clearly through the eyes of others. True. Um, and that's, uh, what you're reflecting there in a different way, and I appreciate the group is very, has been open to Kristen's style, so, you know, we've done Yeah. A lot more crazy stuff. Yeah. We did some archery, we've got fly fishing coming up and Yeah. So they not crazy stuff. Cool stuff. Well, and it doesn't have to happen in the classroom or in the boardroom's. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's an understanding that, and our one-on-ones that I'm having, we're walking or, you know, we've. We're moving. Yeah. Like there's, there's, there's a, um, well that was our first conversation too, right? Was walking along the river trailer. That's right. Um, so, well, thank you. I mean, I've gotten nothing but great reports and, you know, when we do it right, uh, it's a win-win, win-win. You know, you love it. The chapter benefits a lot. Local think tank headquarters and the community en large and you know, in this case, Alma on the Loco team is a member. Mm-hmm. And she came on board not too long before you took over and it was, it was just before Alicia came on the team as well. And, and, uh, and for context for the, almost the producer of the podcast, and she's 20 years old and, and a very capable. Young leader of herself and, and potentially others as well. And she brings, um, a really interesting perspective too, right? When you think about all the, in that group, there's a generational perspective. There's a, um, amount of time in business perspective Totally. That everyone's bringing something and the group is, um, open to all of that and acknowledges this is an insight I could not have had on my own. Yeah. Yeah. And that I, I remember in our Hallows training when like almost a little bit reserved and quiet and young and stuff, but when she saw how much different she was wired than myself and Deb at that time, it was like an obligation for her to not just feel welcome to share, but you have to, you gotta show up. You're and own it. You think about things in a different way than other people do. Yeah. So bring it. Yeah. And you know, when we can have each of our members feel, I. Comfortable to do that. Mm-hmm. Which I think is the environment you're, you're crafting there. So kudos to you. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Um, do you need to, should we, let's take a quick break. Okay. Then we'll jump into the closing segments. Okay. Alright. Cheers. And we're back. So you're super excited about our closing segments. Yeah. For sure. Politics especially. Politics especially. Uh, where do you wanna start? We, so we always talk about faith, family, politics. Yeah, let's talk family. Okay. Let's, they're my favorite. Let's do it. Um, I think you've probably listened to a few episodes, but, uh, you've got five, I have five babies. Five littles. Yeah. Uh, and ranging from 27 down to six months or something. Uh, so this woman, before I even move along, she delivered a baby like four days after she facilitated her introductory chapter meeting, I think at Loco Think Tank. Yeah. Which was a few days early. I actually, it was a day or, yeah, we met on two days on the 16th. And, and I, one of the members was like, we don't have, I don't do babies. Like, we're not having a baby here. I'm like, it's fine. We're not having a baby right now. The next day I had a baby. Really? Yeah. I didn't, I hadn't been sure it was the next day. I knew. Yeah. It was the next day. It was right after. Yeah. Um. You're a beast. Oh, thank you. He was a little early. It was, yeah. Yeah. Healthy now. Happy. Yeah, he's great. Everything. He's great. Vincenzo. Vincenzo. Yeah. So, uh, we do a one word description of the children, uh, around here. I think you probably know, but do you wanna do it? Oldest to youngest? Youngest to oldest Two. Oldest to youngest. Um, one word. And you can expound after that too, but, okay. The one word or, we allow hyphens sometimes if necessary. Okay. We're not structuralist, you know. Alright, so one word for Corley. She's 27. I'm, I'm just gonna say badass. Okay. Um, like her mama. Oh, thank you. She is like the whole package. She's smart. She's, um, fierce. She's. Living in England. She just finished law school. She's just a really good human being. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Gentle and kind and those good things too. Yeah, she's a great big sister. Like, uh, she's connected. Yeah. Very cool. She's amazing. How long has she been in England? Three years I think. Okay. Is she gonna like, yeah, I think it's three. She went to make it longer. Is she gonna come back around, do you think? I don't think she's coming back around. Not to here anyway. I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah. She um, she did, she was in the Peace Corps in Vanuatu for a couple of years. What a Hutu. Right. But Vanuatu, it's an island chain near Fiji. Oh really? Okay. Yeah, I learned something there. Oh my gosh. I got to go visit her and Right. Kind of be in the village with her for a little bit and watch her speak biz lama in a couple different dialects and that's pretty cool. Um, yeah, she can speak, she picks up language really easy. Yeah. She's. She's my, um, my kind of role model. Kinda a hyper blessed, super capable person. Mm-hmm. She's taught me a lot about being a mama, which comes with a lot of its own pressures and things. Yeah, I bet she was there for some of that time, huh? Yeah. Um, so who's number two? Number two is Pele. Okay. She's almost 16. On Monday she'll be 16. Awesome. Happy birthday, Pele. Yeah. Pele is named after the Hawaiian Goddess Pele. Um, it's something to choose to name your baby after, not the Brazilian soccer player. No. What, so tell me about the Hawaiian goddess. That's good, but, but fire, like, ah, yeah. After Gotcha. Um, she's also fierce. Okay. But I think the word for Pele is aesthetic. Hmm. She has an eye for. How things come together. She's got her own little bakery, little, um, bakery that she has been kinda supporting herself. That's cool with for a bit. And, um, she can, I could see her doing things like creating environments and weddings or like yeah. Putting things together that look interior design, like huge events or interior signages or Yes. Whatever. Yes. Make it a place you wanna be. Yep. Interesting. Yeah, she has an eye for that for sure. And, um, she's into musical theater and she's really good. She's a beautiful voice and she's, she's sort of that triple package, what's that called when you. Triple threat. She can sing, she can act. Um, she can dance. I don't know that she can dance. Okay. Awesome. That's it. Good for her. Yeah. Uh, that's Palley. Who's next? Gabriel. Okay. Gabriel. Is, is Gabriel a boy or He's Gabriel's a boy. Okay. There's both ways, right? He's, he's 13. Gabriel, I suppose it is. Gabrielle. Yep. Yeah. Anyway, he is 13 and he's now like five five. He's just shooting up. Oh. Like he's in that middle of, he's taller. His mom already, he's taller than me and Yeah. Catching up on all his sisters. Yep. Or maybe passed a couple. He's passed them. Yep. He's passed both of them. And his word, his word man, he's just, he's quiet. Hmm. In a, and he's sweet. He's in a, he's like thoughtful and contemplative. Yep. And I mean, he can build things for hours. Hmm. And then asks important questions. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I like my word. Contemplative. Yeah. Contemplative. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see. And he's just, he's very gracious too. Mm. Like with me specifically, he's like, thank you, mom. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Like, he's, he's aware. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And, uh, number four. And number four is Lucero. Ooh. Lucero means starlight. And he is, his word is light bulb. Okay. He is a light bulb. He's just light. And yeah, just radiance kind of engaged in everything that he's around him and touching. How old is he? If he were here, he would completely dominate this conversation. He'd have an answer and be an expert entirely. And he's 10. 10? Yeah. Well, that's about the right age for having all the answers. Yeah. But that sounds like the personality would carry with him. And then you had a pretty big gap. Yeah. 10 years. And then we have Vincenzo. Yeah. So yeah, I just had, um, I just had a baby six months ago. And you guys did, uh, like an I V F kind of thing? We did an embryo transfer. Embryo transfer, okay. Yeah, because I'm 52. Right. I remember when, when we were approaching that December chapter meeting and you're like, not quite as big as a house, but maybe some small houses. I was ready. Yeah, you were big. Yeah. And you're like, it'd be fine. You know, and you're just, I don't know. I'm, I'm just really inspired by you and just you're fearless approach to. Doing that at that age and stuff, and, uh, I think that's just really neat. Oh, thank you. Was that a hard decision? Like, did you decide that together with Dax? I mean, how, like what was, how, how did you arrive at that, I guess? Hmm. Like some people I'm sure would've asked like, why didn't you just choose to adopt so you didn't have to go through that? You know, care probably what's probably a high risk, like a carry at that age, even though you're physically probably able to beat me up or whatever. But I won't beat you up. No, I'm not scared. I'm just Okay, good. Yeah, no, but you could just for the record, for those listening, but like you, you're, you're physically, you're very fit, very capable, and you by the way, you've lost the baby weight really fast. You look great. Thank you. Um, was it a tough decision? No, actually. Um, Over the last 10 years, we've talked about different options. Like do we want, we didn't feel like we were done having with our family, um, but felt like we were both physically done having babies. Right? Right. And so we had explored fostering, we had talked about adopting, um, we talked about fostering at that level of just we are the respite people. Right. Some, some capacity and maybe you'll pick one up on some miracle or whatever. Yeah. In, in a moment. Right. There were a couple opportunities where that was maybe gonna happen and it didn't happen. And then, um, then we met a friend who had done, used a process of embryo transfer where, where you have, um, How do I say this? So people who use I V F, if they have embryos that they're not using leftovers mm-hmm. They have to make a choice about, right. Like, you keep them in a bank, do you donate them? Do you destroy them? Right. Which is a really tough choice. Yeah. And so, um, there are banks where people donate their Sure. Embryos. Yeah. Um, for families who need them. Right. Huh. So we found out about that, and then we were like, well, do we find a, um, a surrogate, somebody who had just, or Yeah. Is a gestational carrier. I get the language mixed up. Yeah. Gestational carrier, I suppose would be the So who just other option carry the baby. Yeah. And I was like, wait a minute, it could be your egg or whatever. Yeah. Right. But I'm like, I not do this. Doing right, doing that. Um, what does that look like? And so we talked to a couple people and realized, learned that really all we needed was a healthy uterus and. So I did some testing. I had to have some physical tests and get a doctor to say, yes, we will support you. We'll take care of you. Yeah. Um, they were great and physically checked out and I was like, well, why would, I'm physically capable of doing this, why would I have somebody else do this? And so we started looking, found an embryo, a big that we were connected with, and, uh, went to California and did an embryo transfer, and I had a baby. Yeah. Uh, do you yet have enough information for one word on vis Vincent Vincenzo? Vincenzo, um, what's his word? Uh, just, we'll just go with magic for right now. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I like that. Um, so this might be a personal question, but he's so smiling too though. Like, just smiley, smiley, smiley. Like had you been through menopause? Like in your fifties, or does that, is that necessary or is it just bottom? No, it didn't matter. Doesn't matter. Because they were gonna, they gave me hormones to stop any cycling anyway, because they don't want your, your body cycle to get in the way. Okay. Because they're gonna do the transfer. Yeah. And then once the, um, your body just kind of like, Hey, there's an embryo here. Yeah. And then your body makes a placenta, and once the placenta's there and supplying nutrients, then I, it doesn't need any other hormones. Wow. It's just doing its own thing and driving the whole process. Really? Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. Like our, how our bodies respond or women's bodies in particular Incredible how, yeah. And it was, it was, um, I, it was nerve wracking. I was nervous about it because then I'd been taking hormones to get pregnant, to stop my system and make sure everything was already, and then to stop taking them once the placenta, like talk about trust. Yeah. I was like, oh, I don't, what if. What if my placenta's not ready. Right, right, right. Um, and it worked out great. That's so cool. Yeah, I had a lot of support. I could probably spend 20 minutes here, but I won't. Um, but talk to me about Dax. Like your my person. Yeah. Your person. Yeah. What was it that caused you to fall in love? Uh, in that first, I guess it was a summer, if I remember right from our conversation. Yeah. That it was, uh, spring actually, and then it moved into summer and finally made a, made a decision. Um, Dax is super creative and, um, the kind of communicator who's just clear and a good listener and artistic and really passionate about people and understanding people and all the things that Dax has done over time. Like career-wise or parenting, all of that is just intentional and full quality. Like, you know, that thet are shows up, percent crossed and the i's are dotted and I am just go, right, right. It'll work out. It'll be fine. I'm gonna quit. Yeah. Ready, fire, aim, something like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, um, that's a really good balance for both of us mm-hmm. To make sure we kind of keep us both moving in a direction that, um, compliments both of those things. Yeah. And yeah. Very cool. Um, do you prefer politics or faith conversation next? Um, let's do faith conversation next. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Uh, you mentioned when we were like, Pre-recording that you were, well, and plus your church school kind of Pentecostal, I think you said. Mm-hmm. A very young family. And then this, was it also a Pentecostal school that it was Okay. Yeah. And I don't know anything about it. It sounds like you don't necessarily know a whole lot about what makes someone a Pentecostal versus otherwise, but I, I don't know. I mean, I was into it really, really hard, but I don't know that I understood it. Yeah. As much as I would if I were into it now. Yeah, yeah. For sure. I think for sure. Think I was 14, 15. Right. That's what I tell people. I've memorized the books of the Bible when I was getting confirmed or whatever, and I didn't really know the good news until I was 27. Yeah. Uh, so it's a digress. Right. What you understand over time is different. Right. Which also I think makes, it's making me think of parenting, like what a different parent I am to Vincenzo. Right. That I was with Corley 27 years ago. Right, right, right. What I understand is different. What I prioritize is different, all of that. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I went to. This Pentecostal church, it was a Church of God, and then the school was Pentecostal and pretty rigorous, at least my experience. I dunno if this is true for all, but Yeah. Yeah. You know, the women didn't wear, didn't wear pants and didn't cut their hair. Oh, oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Um, and then I went to the public school Right. And kind of followed a little bit with the church for a bit. Mm-hmm. And then didn't fair, um, I think there were, there were times where I, without going super deep, there were times where I really would kind of challenged things that I had believed that then got challenged, that I felt like, wow, I, yeah, this has been swept over. Kind of like I had no business having such a stance on this. I didn't understand any of it. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, from a faith perspective, now I really am in tune with. Kind of universal energy vibration connection. Um, I feel really inspired and clear when I'm in the woods. Mm-hmm. And in the water. I think there's messages in nature that kinda give me some insight and some wisdom and, and intuition. And that's my, that's my faith. Are you part of a faith community in any aspect? Like, do you connect with people on that topic or do you even within your family, do you guys have like a kind of a we'll call legacy truth kind of a foundation or things like that? Not specifically. I think, I mean, I, we have practices that the family is aware of, like Sure. You know, new Year's Eve, we, we do some intuition and the kids are all in the process with me and I have them do an intuitive kind of thing where I ask for some imagery and I'm holding a question that they don't know the answer to. Mm-hmm. And I draw their pictures and then I make decisions based on it. And so, Yeah. It's, you know, that's my spiritual kind of practice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, meditation and they've all meditated intermittently together, um, and separately, but that's not part of their lives. When you talk about meditation for you, is that like there's, you know, guided meditations on apps and stuff mm-hmm. And then there's like silent by myself, four hour meditations and different kind of segments of that thought, right. Like what, what, what's meditation mean to you when you say that? Well, um, in the woods it's walking meditation, kind of just being aware, like trying to notice Yeah. Not think notice. Don't think. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is hard. I do that sometimes. Yeah. So hard. Yeah. Um, so I just notice I'm thinking until I'm not done thinking. Right, right, right. Um, I use guided meditations at home mostly. Mm-hmm. So that I, to help with that thinking. But also the guided meditations that I use kinda have a little bit of messages intermittently. I'm getting a little like Headspace, I like, um, there's a transcendental meditation, uh, Joe Dispenza. Um, there's some meditations that I'll listen to every once in a while that are just moving energy. I have favorite people in that space. Yeah. And whatever for a purpose even. Yeah. Do you do other, what you might call spiritual practices, yoga or other things like that too or, um, any, any zen Buddhism and more of a kind of a universal energy kind of element. Sounds like pegan influence, maybe even some ways there. Yeah, probably ways Pegan influence. Um, my, I'll sometimes be in a process of throwing the etching regularly. I don't know what that is, which the etching is a, um, Oh my gosh, I don't even know if I can explain what that is, but you're, it's like a yo-yo. Just kidding. No, you're throwing coins. Oh. And then you're, you're checking to see Hexagrams and Trigrams and what they mean. And then you're, there's a book, um, that then you're referring to. Interesting. I don't know the history of the itching, so I, I don't feel like I can even describe where that comes from. Yeah. It sounds like kind of Ouija boish almost to me, but hopefully not quite as scary. Or, I use medicine cards, like animal wisdom cards. Oh, interesting. Regularly. Okay. And so sometimes I'll just pull a card for some wisdom. Yeah. That kind of like wisdom of a Bear. We have one of those signs hanging on our entry weight kind of, but yeah, a little bit kind of like just reflections and medications around reflections and kind of the way that you work within your coaching practice. Yes. Like here's some, here's this area of being mm-hmm. That I can kind of contemplate on and just think about and reflect upon. And that is clarifying. Yes. So, for example, when I was in, uh, when I was in Montana last week for my hour boundary reunion. Yes. Tell me about that. Well, it was amazing'cause this is a group that I probably the only community that I felt belonging in, like in a true sense of belonging. Hmm. Um, and remember I had been, I've been a, yeah, kind of an outsider in a lot of different ways, like merging in and facilitating or outside the conversation. And in this group I've always felt really belonging. So while we were, while we were there, there was a moment where I was hiking by myself and with Vincenzo and saw Snake. And then a couple days later we saw a moose in town. Like a little baby bull moose. Young, young enough. Yeah. Yeah. To know that it was a, um, he had horns. It was young, but he had, yeah. Yes. So he had nubbins, a nubbins bull. Yeah. And they were all soft. And Yeah. So I haven't yet, but my, I know about, Moose and I know about snake enough to like either go look, look at it, or to be thinking, okay, what was I thinking about time when I random snake? That's just random, right? Random, yes. So the snake is about transmuting thoughts and poisons and toxins and things like that. So think about the like kind of converting the good, the bad to the good almost. Mm-hmm. Are changing the character of something and there's some kind of transformation, right? The snake sheds its skin, um, and transmutation. So I can be thinking about, oh, what was I thinking about? And what is the message there? Yeah. And is it for you or is it for Vincenzo? Right? Yeah. And whatever that is. And so same thing with moose. The moose is really about voice. Yeah. And using voice. Well, I happened to be with, with some other people who were talking about, um, a position that they were in where they weren't. They weren't, they weren't making this connection. I was making the connection, but they had been talking about using voice. Yeah. And showing up and being authentic. Like revealing. Yeah. Interesting. A moose never lets it, Nope. Let's a call back. Hey Kristen, how's it going? Um, so I feel like that's enough on the faith topic unless you wanna do more. No, that's it. That's, uh, politics. We got all kinds of, uh, current events on that space. Yeah. We got, we got 14 candidates for the Republican nomination and Biden and nobody else on the Democratic side except for like this J f K guy. A lot of drama there. You wanna go national, you wanna go local politics, don't, don't wanna talk about it. I just don't know if I would have anything to offer, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. I You don't pay attention really? I don't pay attention until, I mean, I pay attention locally in terms of making sure that I can actively vote in situations that are going on, especially city council or different, yeah. Yeah. As much as I can. Although matters, the voting piece is really complicated. I'm like, we, we don't make it accessible for people in general. Um, I can understand, but I, when, look, when I look at how much it takes to vote, it's a pain in the ass. I mean, they give you a book that's thick to read, right? If you wanna be a educated voter, and it takes three hours if you wanna be educated, and then you're thinking, well, what about the people who can't read this book? Yeah. Or what about the people who don't understand, even if they can read it or, well, some would say that those people shouldn't vote at all. Well, that's one of our candidates right now, uh, Vivek Ramas Swami. And why wouldn't they vote at all? Um, because they don't have skin in the game. Uh, his proposal is to make it like, after you've paid, if you own property or after you've paid X amount of taxes, then you can vote because it shows you're kind of engaged in the, in the economy and have a vested interest in the game. I'm not defending it, I'm just Right. You're telling me. Telling you're sharing. Yeah, but I mean, there is something to be said, like, if you don't know a damn thing, should you really vote? It almost, you know, I don't know. And Brazil voting is compulsory. Hmm. Uh, everybody has to vote or face big crimes. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's an interesting thing. Even watching my kids become age, like voting age, right? Yeah. Approaching, yeah. What is, how is this important? What do you understand? Do you feel like you can have a voice? Um, because even if, I guess I do have an opinion about that, like even if I am not a hundred percent engaged, I'm affected. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Agreed. Right. No, I would say I disagree with that notion. Um, but there is something to be said for like a responsibility. Another thing that the same candidate says is that everybody that graduates from high school should be able to pass the same civics test as we give immigrants. Mm-hmm. Because duh. You know, you should be aware of what America came from or whatever, right? Yeah. Um, but that brings up a whole different awareness of where, what America came from, right? What are we teaching people and what are, what are we teaching people to believe and Totally. And who's the ones deciding what they should learn and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So, um, let's shift into the thought of education and thought, like, I think that's probably a big political topic right now is, you know, I want, I say this, I feel like our schools have suffered from the standardization of learning and the, the focus on teaching to the test instead of teaching how to think. Um, and that. Letting states have more independence to test and sample and try new things and contend against one another for their education systems would be better than kind of being like, here, do it this way guys. If you want the federal juice. Uh, and so, uh, I'll, I'll ask for thoughts on that topic. Yeah. I think it's, well, my, my number one thought is it's super complicated. Mm-hmm. Um, I feel like, you know, my kids are in public school. They take standardized tests. They, and I don't, you don't have any criticism necessarily. I don't, well, I don't enforce the need to take a standardized test or the need to take the tests that then defines them. Defines them. Right. So our conversations are really about do your best and make it a game. Let's see how much, you know. Yeah. Play with it, experiment with it. Yeah. Um, this does not define you and it does not. Say who you are and what you're capable of. When I think about, so for example, I think I got maybe a 16 or something on the, at a c t. Oh wow. And I retook it and got an 18. Wow. I have, and I'm Yeah. Have a lot of degrees. So if the, if that test is, are you just a bad test taker? Yes. Yeah. And there were a lot of gaps and things that I never learned. Right. Well'cause you had this like 30 person school for a season of your education and stuff like that besides Right. Had to. Right. So then I was, well, you know, when I get to high school, I was a little behind in terms of math and things like that. So my, my brother was in the same algebra class as me and, um, fascinating. Yeah. So, and I had to learn g I had to teach myself geometry to take the, the G r e Right. To get into graduate school. Right. Never had any of that. So if these things are predicting whether or not you're capable of Right. Going further on an education, I think it's, I mean, did, yeah. Yeah. It doesn't make a connection when you're talking to someone like me who has totally a bachelor's, two master's and a PhD. That's fa I, I remember specifically when we got our a c T test back in my little high school and one of the kids got like a 15 and it was like a badge of shame. Mm-hmm. Right? And like how different, I got a 30 and if I got a 31, I could got a bunch of scholarships and stuff and I took it again and I got a 30 again with different scores. So if I could picked my best of them, I could've got a bunch of scholarships. Just 31. Yeah. And so the, and like all along my journey, like going back to the Iowa basic tests in fifth grade and whatever, like all the reports I got back were like, wow, you're really smart, Kurt, compared to the average or whatever. And just how that informed my own receiving of myself. Mm-hmm. In comparison to you feeling like. Probably like I've got a lot of skills and I've faced a lot of challenges and I suck at taking tests and there's just big gaps in my knowledge, but I'm as smart as anybody. Right. But you probably didn't even think that at the time. You probably were thinking, I kind of suck. You know, I only got up to 18. Maybe not, I don't know. I don't remember what I thought, but I, I don't have a memory of it. Of it mattering. Yeah. For some good. For you reason.'cause it would for a lot Yeah. Of folks I imagine so. Well, even when I, like all of my kids are so different, right? Right. They're all, I've had kids at the totally 99th percentile and at the 25th percentile. And from an education perspective. Totally. And like, what does that even mean? Well, and that's just one number besides, that's one of, I don't know if I've ever shared this with you on the local think tank thing, but like, I think of intelligence as more like 10 different buckets or something. Right? And so instead of being a 100 iq, you know, you're a seven out of 10 in this, you're a five out 10 in this category, you're a nine out of 10 in this, and celebrate that and then share it with each other, right. And it's cultural too, right? Right. Like we're talking about what we are comparing from a very western perspective. Right. But that doesn't mean that there's not intelligence that isn't measured in that way. Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. That just doesn't get picked up on that. Right. Um, so I guess what can we do to help? Like what are the political levers or buttons that you have at least pondered upon for longer than a minute? Because you're kind of in that space of human development, human flourishing. Mm-hmm. Human, uh, helping ourselves create better humans out of ourselves in, right. Yeah. So what are the things that, from a political standpoint, from a government standpoint, what can government do to help people want to become better people? What can government do to help people? People or maybe they shouldn't do anything. I don't know. I mean, a lot of it is just encouragement, right? Like somewhere along your journey there was one or two or three people, or maybe it was just mostly from your own heart that said, I got the Jews to continue on and continue growing and learning and teaching and serving others. And, you know, I'm not that 16 a c t person that I was when I was 17 or whatever. It's funny that, um, the thing that's coming up for me is student loans. Hmm. Um, because I think we could do a better job in how, how we support people getting education, but how we penalize them for doing that. Mm-hmm. Um, and I've mixed feelings about it. So like the, like the relief, like the paying back, the loan relief kind of thing? Yeah. Either relief or even just the payback process. Right. Um, because I, I think people are, Stuck in the interest rate that has like, it would be easy to pay off the loan. Yeah. It's the interest that's gone so upside down that is difficult to, yeah. To justify or to feel okay about paying off or to, um, and I know what I think. Yeah. I think it was a mistake I to nationalize that element. I mean it was banks guaranteed by the government for a long time and it really changed the dynamic once they made it direct government loans. Well, and, and education is so expensive, right? Secondary education. Well, and I, the libertarian with me would say, I. It's so fucking expensive because they made the financing of it so available, over available. Um, and that's so they didn't have to be competitive really. It was just everybody could buy it if you want. Just put it on credit. Yeah. Just, oh my gosh. I think that's, I don't know. That's a big part of unfortunately, the, the creep and cost and watching the same way that the medical industry has gone up faster than inflation. Well, it's like,'cause somebody else is paying for it. Right. The insurance company's paying for it. It's fine. Whatever. Don't worry about it. Yeah. You know, customers don't have, it's a mess. That obligation to like press their provider, be like, Hey, are you sure$4,800 is the best I can get for that? Whatever, you know, minor surgery. Yeah. And what is, what do things actually cost versus what Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that I have a solution and companies don't always know, right. Anyway. Yeah. They probably don't know. Not really. I mean, we put all the monies in this bucket and then we try to squeeze out some profit of this and Right. They know what's in the budget. Yes. We kind of know and we a little bit, but you know, it depends on how many minor surgeries you do, how much each one costs.'cause it's largely about the overhead element. Mm-hmm. So if you can stay busy doing'em, then you don't have to charge so much. Yeah. And the overhead and the equipment and the science to get there and all of it. Decision making and super complex. Yeah. It's very complex. And, and so it's a, medicine is a place where capitalism fails to really work. Right. I think. And there's some politics for you. Like, I don't know if you wanna go there into the, like, like the Covid Nation stuff, it's like, it looks increasingly likely, like the, the bug came out of the lab, probably research, probably accidental, hopefully not planned right. But like can these companies that have a vested interest financially in the vaccine, N i h has the, the license, the whatever. But if they let this bug out and then they can make a bunch of money by fixing it with the vaccine, like, that sounds like a, as an economist by training, that's like a terrible situation where people will just make lots of things so they can fix it. Right. Right. And the, well then we're bordering on some conspiracy stuff and some, like, what's, how do we know what's to do? Or just economics. Right. What do we know that's the problem. Yeah. Yeah. Any, uh, reflections on like, how can we take the moral hazard that's associated with capitalism and drug development and stuff out of the industry of, of medicine? Because there really isn't an, isn't an incentive to keep people healthy'cause then they don't pay nothing. Hmm. Right. And so the, the way that hospitals and doctors and pharmacies and pharma, pharmacology or whatever companies make money is by selling you stuff. And if you don't need nothing, which is ideal. So anyway, that's the way, that's the place where, where medicine is kind of backwards. It's the incentives work against the goals. Yeah. I think in some areas, I think it depends on what we're talking about. Yeah. Like at the, from a medicine, well, if human health is the goal, if human health is the goal, then I don't know. Let's talk about having, bringing medicine back into their home. Yeah. Instead of being in an institution or in an or, in a, in a space. You know, how do we, how do we meet people where they are and get them the services that they need that are, um, well, how do you make money on it though? And make and access. But do you have, do you need to make money on it? It's, well, somebody needs to, yeah. You know, that you had a big, people need to get paid for it. You had a well into six figure salary at, at Cheyenne Medical Center in Banner. You know that. So it's valuable. Yeah, for sure. But if nobody was using your services,'cause they're all kind of taking care of themselves at home. I don't, that's the Yeah, and I think interesting thing, I think that taking care of them at home is like, I'm thinking paramedicine where you have medics who can do more sure. On site versus taking them to have to have this two minute visit from a doctor to stamp something. Or you think about how busy the emergency departments are. Sure. The emergency room, keeping people outta that is a big part of the problem and keep the, and throughput. So that's a whole different conversation. Right, right, right. Like throughput in, in the org, in and out of the organization. But it's still about the incentives, like the revenues are created when people actually have health problems. And that's, uh, I just So you think that, that we're creating problems in order to create the incentive for no care? No, I don't think so. Well I think maybe Fauci did. Um, I'm not gonna comment on that necessarily, but I don't think in general medical organizations act that way, but, The, the truth is, is, is if hospitals, if medical systems did a really good job of keeping people super healthy, they'd run themselves outta business'cause they wouldn't have any surgeries or visits, whatever, right? Like, and so there is this kind of awkward disincentive to doing a really good job in some ways. Like, I don't think that's pervasive in the culture or anything, but economics rules ultimately whether or not psychology is injected at a high level. And, and that's probably the biggest problem with medicine is, is detaching that payer from the, the service provider through our insurance industry, has really created this kind of separation of demand from a, uh, care. Like people don't care how much it costs to go to the doctor,'cause the insurance company pays for it anyway. And the, the hospitals are only too happy to, you know, go for the super quick. Fix, uh, that creates a revenue stream. Yeah. I don't know. I I have a story for you, even from my, my vet experience. My dog. So my dog needed, uh, uh, they said she needed a double knee replacement back in the day, and I couldn't afford that. It was three grand per knee. And so I put her on glucosamine horse glucosamine for$30 a month or something, and six months later she could go up and down our stairs. And she lived six more years and never needed no knee, nothing. Right? Like, and so, but, but the vet was gonna make$3,000,$3,200 per knee if I did that surgery. Hmm. And they made nothing for me going to put her feed and supply, you know, to buy Gluc horse glucosamine initially before they started making it available for dogs. Same thing. Uh, same dog. Uh, she got a bone stuck in her colon. Hmm. And they wanted to do x-rays to, to see what they could do if there was surgery or something like that. I'm like, well, no reason to do x-rays. It's a 12 year old dog and I'm not gonna do surgery. Even if you find it. Like, so what else can we do? And they said, oh, well, we can give her an iv, uh, a saline solution. We'll put it under her skin. We'll give her a liter, loosen her up a little bit. Buta, bing bada boom, she passed the bone and never had to have a surgery. Mm. It was a way less intensive thing, and the vet didn't make any money hardly on it, but it, but it shows kind of the culture of, like, that vet tech definitely believed that her better choice was to get an x-ray and then to get surgery. But, but honestly, the better choice would've been just to do a, a saline thing and see if it works and come back tomorrow if it doesn't Yeah. But that doesn't pay the bills. Yeah. Talk to me about access, uh, then, if that's really, well, I mean, I think there's, there's cultural access and there's, you know, belief systems in terms of like how we do healthcare. Um, different, different kind of, yeah. Alternate modalities that, you know, like can people afford acupuncture that could actually. That the insurance companies don't always pay for. Right. Right. That might actually be more a benefit. Right. Which I'm not sure it's about economy. I think it's about, yeah. But the acupuncturist value could covered by insurance. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So it's about values, you know, like is homeopathy covered, is massage covered? Is um, energy work covered? Like Right. Right. What are these other modalities that could, can, who's the contribute to healing? Who's the Yeah, yeah. And who's the decider and what is healing for people? If you get into some of the tinfoil hat books and stuff, like, there was a big kind of battle between like the Rockefeller funded Western medicine element and like the homeopathic and some of the more holistic styles. And the western medicine pretty much won. Whether it was better or not, it was better funded and. S there's kind of a resurgence now, I think, at least, at least in some corners of the world, where people are more open to considering acupuncture, more to being part of their, but still they're usually pulling outta their pocket, whereas their other quote unquote, healthcare office visits, whatever drugs. Yeah. Um, may or not, may not be covered care. Right, right. Right. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, it's a lot. Uh, let's, uh, let's wrap this up with the Loco experience. Okay. Your craziest experience that you're willing to share with our listeners. Oh, of your, my craziest experience. Lifetime. My, the loco, the craziest experience. Yeah. Could be a business related journey. Could be, you know, taking a raft off of a waterfall on the Colorado River. I don't know what your crazy experience is, but I'm sure you've got more than one. Hmm. I, I'm gonna go with wave riskiest experience. Okay. So when I was in Vanuatu with Corley, we um, found information from the locals there about, um, a cave diving. I. Okay. Like a, a space where you had to have a local take you or like let you had to know where to go. Right. Right. And then you jumped off the side of this ca this cliff. Or you could either jump or there was a, um, they had put a ladder there that came off and on.'cause you swim up and climbed down kind of Yeah. But it was right at the mouth of the cave. Okay. Which was right where the tide was. Oh right. So if you didn't know what you were doing Yeah. Like you could just go get swept right out into the tide. But if you could, if you could get in it, you're inside this beautiful, amazing cave with a keyhole on the top. Mm-hmm. And you could breathe. And you could breathe. Yeah. Yeah. It was big and open. You could stand in it. A hands full of people could stand in it as long as the tide wasn't in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we went in this cave and it was beautiful and it was amazing. And there happened to be a local right there with someone else who swam us under. But there were a couple of people with us who were kind of, Um, posturing a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And um, you know, I was, I was helping carry the ladder because I'm me and I'm helping the carry the ladder. And the person who was helping didn't seem like they were being mindful and I was, it was probably the most it right on the edge of like, like focus, we could die here. We should not be doing this motherfucker. Yeah. Right. And I'm with my daughter's different. Oh, right, right. I'm like, should we do this? Should we not do this? Like, what's my level of Yeah. Actual fear. I have a huge healthy, like, respect for the water. Right. Um, it turned out to be, An amazing, beautiful experience and I'm really glad I did it and I was really glad that there was a local there that was like Yeah. The calculated risk Yep. Kinda element and how to actually do it. Yep. I like it. Yeah. Um, so if, if there's people out here that are like listening, Hey, I love Kristen. I wanna hire Pulp Leadership to do an expeditionary training for our team or something. Where do they find you? Yeah. Retreat or something. Um, they can just go to my website, which is pulp leadership.com. Pretty easy. Yeah. That's probably the easiest. Facebook, LinkedIn, you can find a, you know, and if you're a key employee, uh, uh, like a number two generally. Yeah. Uh, at a five to 10 to 20 employee, 25 employee local business. Um, and you would be interested in checking out Kristen's chapter? We've got a couple of, couple of spots available too. Yeah, that would be amazing. So we'd welcome you. Thanks for making time. Thanks for serving our community in, in so many different ways. Yeah. Thanks for your curiosity and letting me share my story. Good for being on the podcast. Got speed.