EXPERIENCE 114 | Phil Pelto, Firestorm - The Power of Network Effect & How to Build Authentic Connections

phil Pelto is the co-founder and Chief Connections Officer of Firestorm Business to Business Networking and the Owner and Chief Connections Officer of Service Business to consumer networking, both with an increasing number of chapters and members across the Colorado front range. Phil co-founded Firestorm while he was working as a suit salesman in Minnesota nearly 15 years ago. Scaled rapidly and expanded to Florida, and then hired a professional manager to operate the business while he moved to Germany to pursue a girl he had met AOC at Octoberfest. The manager crashed the business while Phil was winning the girl, which Phil considers a net win and years later restarted the concept after moving to Colorado. Phil and I were only barely acquainted before this podcast session, and we kind of dork out on the whole B2B membership organization experience. We've got a lot of overlap in the way we do things and why, yet we serve different audiences for different reasons. Local think tank members are primarily business owners and they're to work on their business. And firestorm members include some owners, but more often professional salespeople and they're there for strategic partnerships, education, and the referrals. Phil has had a very interesting journey and he is got a lot of big plans for the future, so I hope you'll tune in and enjoy as I did my conversation with Phil Pelto. Welcome back to the Local Experience Podcast. This is your host, Kurt Bair, and I'm just getting acquainted with Phil Pelto. Uh, but we've got some mutual acquaintances up and down the front range, and Phil is the co-founder and Chief Connections officer of Firestorm, or My Firestorm. Yeah. Uh, so tell us, tell the average listener that's maybe not heard about Firestorm, what it is. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for having me on. This is, uh, I'm super excited and I love the studio here, so thank you. Thank you. That's my money tree right above you, by the way. Oh, all right. Awesome. It's fairly healthy. Yeah. All right. Rub it for luck here. Yeah. Um, so, uh, Firestorm is a business development organization and we, uh, really help small business owners grow top line revenue with strategic partnerships and referrals and, you know, help people identify who their ideal client is, um, who else is selling to that ideal client. And, um, try and get those strategic partners in the room together to develop a relationship and share, share business. So it's, it's more about network than like a sales skills kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing that it's more about strategic partnerships. Exactly. Yeah. And you know, there's definitely. You know, um, it's tangential to, to the sales thing and it kind of leads into that, right. So, but we have, um, sales trainers in our organization and we have, um, great partnerships with that. I actually used to be a sales trainer myself, and so, you know, I think there's, there's sales trainer dna Exactly. In there somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm, I'm a sales guy, right? That's, that's who I am. Is that who most of your members are as salespeople or is it owners? Is it, yeah, so, um, I would say that they are, um, the rainmaker in the business. Mm-hmm. And so 70% of our business, or our members are business owners. Mm-hmm. Um, but they're responsible for that, um, business development piece of things. Yeah. And then 30% of our members are salespeople for larger organizations. You know, whether it be a bank or Right. But that are generally business to business kind of thing. Business to business exclusively. Yeah. Assigned company, uh, right. Whatever, title insurance, Comcast, you know. Yeah. Right. Okay. Got it. That kind of thing, so, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Cool. So it's like, Do you get insulted if somebody calls you a networking organization? Because I kind of do. No, you don't. Okay. I don't, I mean, we're different. I think it, um, yeah, totally. And, but I, I get insulted. Insulted and we're, I'm not insulted by it. I was just teasing. No, I, um, I, I get insulted if, if you, you know, refer me to like three litter acronym companies, so I like to say with anti vni. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I respect, right? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I mean that, that's, you know, it's fun to, like, there's a OG kind of in, in some ways, right? It's like hating on the Patriots. Right. You know, like everybody loves to do it, but you know, they're freaking monsters, you know? Right. They, they got five super bowls, how are you guys? Yeah. Like, yeah. Or whatever. Um, so, you know, you can't, you can't really poo poo b and I that much because, you know, Ivan Meisner had a great idea built to this massive business, you know, got a private equity investor, you know, 10 years ago, and it was like a hundred million dollar value. Oh, was that right? Yeah. Like, Uh, you know, he did okay. Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. You can't, you can't poo poo that too much. Well, Anne, you can't blame the church when it gets corrupted over time, it gets too big and powerful and lazy and Yeah. I'm just kidding. Sorry, Ivan, if you're listening, we're not talking trash. Yeah. We're just both jealous. But you are ultimately more on the networking end of that spectrum of business. Totally. Organization. We just, we just have a little different, um, tilt to it. And I think we're, um, there, there's sort of different, um, tiers of networking where, you know, if you're, if you're brand new, super green, you don't understand anything, you go to this group and if you're a little bit more seasoned, you go to another one. And, you know, as you kind of step your way up and then you get to a place like where you're at, where it's business owners, it's not necessarily a networking organization, it's a peer advisory thing. You're having different conversations and, and then you go all the way up the ladder to, you know, the Yeah. The Tiger 20 ones of the world or whatever, where they're already. Big juju guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And gals. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, there's a, there's a, a ladder that you, so would you say most of your, of your owners, are they mostly in that kind of maybe five to 20 employees, kind of that what we call a mid-size? Or are they someone quite a bit bigger than that too? No, I think, I think they even smaller, like, you know, zero, some are themselves. Yeah. Zero, zero to 20. Hmm. Um, you know, because at some point you graduate out of firestorm, and this is something that I'm kind of thinking about as a, as a business owner and, you know, planning for the future, but like, you'll graduate from firestorm when you stop being the business development person. Right. Um, it's not necessarily a great fit anymore, you know? Right. So like, I would kick'em to you, maybe you, you're, you're now sales manager mm-hmm. Or sales op person, whatever, then they joined a Firestone instead. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So when, you know, and I don't, oh, and the owner comes over to, to local. Think tank. Exactly. Right. Yeah. So, so I don't know exactly when that, you know, Transition happens. I know. For, you know, for, for some people they've got 40 employees before that happens. Right? Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, I would hope that it would be before that. But you know, like sometimes the business owner just really loves to be in BizDev, you know, or, or maybe that's their, their weakness and they want to get out of it as fast as possible for the first person they hire, you know, business person. Right. So, um, you have how many chapters you are scattered around kind of the front range here, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, or those like chapters, what do you call'em? Groups? Yeah. Chapters, groups, whatever. I don't Okay. It, we call'em chapters, but it's a semantics thing, whatever. I don't know. Yeah. Um, so down to Colorado Springs and then up to, uh, Johnstown is our furthest north one. Okay. Um, we're looking to do a Fort Collins one here soon. Yep. Yep. Um, but we have 18 that meet Oh, wow. On a weekly basis. Okay. So they're pretty concentrated within that span anyway. Yeah. How so? A lot of'em, a dozen of them in the Denver Metro or ish. Yeah. 10. Yeah. Probably a little more actually. Wow. So, yeah, we just, we have one. In the Springs and then one up here in Johnstown, but then there's like Firestone and you know, north Miami, which is kind of expanded Denver Metro anyway. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, pretty soon it's just gonna be all one big thing, so, right, right. I didn't Is it pretty regional, um, like the way that you put these groups together? Or is it just you find somebody that's got a network and they can put a group together and it's a win-win in that regard? Or, yeah, like, like do people in Arvada kind of stay in Arvada a lot or Golden or whatever? I think, you know, for, for the most part, I would, I would think that they do. And for, you know, this because we meet, we meet in person, right? So, you know, I don't want, we had, we used to have a Fort Collins group a long time ago, and there was a guy that, um, drove from Parker. Every week up to Fort Collins Oh. To manage this group. And I thought it was insane. I had no idea why that, you know, but he, he was there and he was one of the best, you know, people with attendance and everything. So, yeah. Um, yeah, I think, uh, just for ma, you know, consistency and, you know, if there's a weather thing or whatever, like it's, it makes sense to be in your backyard, right? You know, close to your house or your office. Right. Um, but that's not really, um, necessary, you know? But some people are like reps for the whole Denver metro area for their business, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. So, um, what I'm more concerned with is finding a good. Fit where there's, there's overlap between people's ideal clients, you know? Mm-hmm. So it's, it makes a lot of sense for you to be in the room with the people that you're in the room with. Mm-hmm. So less to do with the geographic piece of it, and more to do with the fit, um, with who you're both selling to. So if there's a whole bunch of real estate people in one thing that helps that they're all kind of adjacent to real estate and have, or whatever. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So like car sales plus services or whatever, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, you got the idea, the idea a little different, but, but yeah. Um, but yeah, as long, as, long as they're selling to the same types of clients, well, there's a million ways to make a buck in the world, right? Like, isn't it amazing as we've, how and how many, how big are your groups, uh, of those 18 or whatever groups? Yeah. Um, I think our average. Right now is we're kind of mid-teens. Okay. So they're fairly intimate groups as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't, 20, 25 maybe is like the biggest one kind of thing. And then Yeah. Yeah. That's, you kind of put the brakes on and say, Hey, why don't somebody else start another group around here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Because, you know, there's, there's a lot of stuff that I dive into. Um, you know, if, if you wanna get in the weeds, we can, but, you know, number of group, I don't know, you want, you wanna pull back the curtain? It's, yeah. More than happy to. But the, one of the, um, sort of people or philosophies that I subscribe to is just, you know, um, inch mi inch wide and a mile deep, like a smaller group of people. And I really think that there's, there's a lot of research to support this. There's, there's a cognitive limit on how many relationships a person can maintain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm much more interested in finding, you know, a small group of people, a tight-knit community that's like, Rock stars for you versus casting a wide net and finding, you know, a gajillion people. So that's interesting. I actually, uh, describe myself as a inch deep and a mile wide. Okay. Interesting. Which, that's me. And that's unfortunately the, the, cuz I've got like l l fewer members than you, but I've got a little over a hundred members and all of'em I really like. Mm-hmm. And none of'em I really spend enough time with, you know, cuz I'm just an inch deep and I'm mile wide. I'm running around here and there. Yeah. Yeah. Keeping all the chapters as healthy and full of members as I can. Yeah. It's a well, and so, you know, the, the research that I look at and sort of, you know, um, Agree with, I, I should say. Yeah. Um, is the, the limit is about 150 people that you can maintain a relationship with. Mm-hmm. And within that, there's these tiers and the, the inner circle is five people, and you spend half your time with those five people. Hmm. And then the next layer out is another 15, and you spend an additional 25% of your time with those 15 people. So that core 20 mm-hmm. Gets 75% of your time. So, um, you know, and then the, the next 30 get 15% and the last a hundred get 10%. So it's like, it's really as you get further from your core, yeah. Those outside people get a real small percentage of your time. And that's where maybe you feel like you're spread. Thin. Right. Well, it is. And um, one of the, one of, kind of the interesting things about local think tank and differentiating it from Vistage mm-hmm. Is that Vistage really prefers their people to have at least two, maybe three groups of 14 to 16 members. Oh, they're facilitators. Their facilitators, they're chairs, they call'em. Yep. And, and we're like, we just kind of want you to have one group of up to 12. Yeah. And kind of your, what you're saying is that, that the ask that Vistage makes is like more than most people can actually naturally have proper relationships with. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. You, and for the, the, the logo Think tank only having a dozen anyway. Yep, yep. A hundred percent. Yeah. No, I was just like picking holes in your model. Yeah. Well, no, it's, but it's hard, right? It is like, cuz it, it, like, I've got 10 facilitators now. Okay. And so managing just my relationships with those chapter leaders, you've got. Maybe 18, I guess. Is your, does each group have a leader that's really in charge? It does. Okay. Yep. So a founder, like they're the one that's in charge of bringing members in and stuff too. Yeah. With your help. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We give'em a lot of support, but, um, your guy, Nate. Yep. And Nate. Um, so, you know, we give'em some support, but at the end of the day, you know, it's, it's on their plate. Yeah. So, okay. Yeah. So I guess, do you want to describe like a, it's a weekly group? Yep. It's a weekly group. Um, yeah, so it, you know, the, there's, the weekly meetings are pre-structured, you know, there's an agenda and you know, it, it's not. Very dissimilar from other things that you may have experienced, you know, master networks b and i. Yeah. Um, so, you know, little Lions Club, you know, random this and that. What, who else is out there? Tabletop networking. How much time you got? Like there's a, there's a infinite list of, you know, these little one-off groups. Right. And then ones that have made it a little bigger and, um, yeah. So it's, there's, there's a ton. Okay. Um, but, uh, anyway, so, you know, structured meeting, there's, um, go around Yeah. Introductions. Megan asks, do an elevator pitch. Yeah. And then somebody does a presentation. So the, the thing that it, it's all sort of geared around and all of our, you know, the, the method to the madness mm-hmm. Is based in deepening these relationships with people. So, you know, if you and I are in, in a group together, I really wanna understand you, first of all. Mm-hmm. You know, your background, what makes you tick, what are your goals, hope, dreams, aspirations, you know, and then. Um, tell me more, more about your business and the business thing comes second I think, because, you know, if you decide to go do something else, um, I, I'm building a relationship with you, like I'm gonna stick with you, you know, if you decide to change businesses, change, you know, go to a different company, yada, yada, yada. Um, you know, you and I are the, the sticky thing there. Yeah. Not the company that you're working for. Right. Um, you know, we've got people that work for a bank and it's like they change banks every six months or, you know. Right. So they, and if they're good, they take at least a third of their best customers with them, kind of. Yeah. You know, over time. Yeah. So, um, so anyway, you know, we're developing the relationship with each other and then understanding what we do on a professional level. So, you know, at the end of the day, what you're trying to build is a group of people that really are, um, An extension of yourself, you know, a a, an outsourced, uh, yeah. Ambassadors. Almost. Yeah, ambassadors. A little sales team, you know, so in the nonprofit space, we have ambassadors. I'm an ambassador for Realities for Children in the Matthews House. And it's, yeah. Like somebody that's equipped, they know enough to be at least a sales assistant and queue it up for me. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Identify an opportunity and then just, Hey, Kurt, here, you need to talk to this person. Yeah. And then I'm out. I did my job. Um, but that's, that's part of the magic of a group like this and being consistent and being, you know, uh, developing that relationship over the long term is I really get to know you and your ideal clients. So when I'm out talking to my buddies and they say like, oh, I'm struggling with this thing in my business, and, you know, I wish I had some people to bounce ideas off of. I'm like, oh, that's, I got an app for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and you're all business to business, right? Yeah. So you don't have that inter that was one of the challenging things about a lot of networking groups is a lot of people are just there to. Sell to consumers or whatever, and then they're like, oh, well I need to make a referral this week. I'll have a massage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or whatever. Exactly. Yeah. So, um, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, I just think no effective, but people should, you know, like I have another business that's for just the consumer side of things. Um, and so, you know, we've got totally separate groups. I do, yeah. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. So I've got a totally separate thing where they've got their own groups and it's all the real estate, mortgage, insurance, massage therapist, chiropractor, you know, all that stuff. And what's that? It's called cert. Oh, so you are just a member of a different group like that? No, no, no, no. You own it too. I own that one too, so. Oh, well you didn't even tell me about that. Yeah, well, you know, sorry, doesn't, it's not, not applicable to me. Right, right. Yeah. Fair. Yeah. All right. And probably most of your listeners, so fair. All right. Um, yeah. Interesting. Yep. So a mortgage lender or other businesses see a whatever they don't. Become a part of Firestorm necessarily. Nope. We don't, we don't let them into firestorm. We'll say, Hey, you should go check out Circus. Oh, so, huh. That's a whole thing. Yeah. Well, gosh, uh, so you recently, and I think maybe for the first time, hired like a, another rainmaker, right? Yeah. In in Nate Jorgenson. Yep. Exactly. So yeah, we, uh, we brought Nadon full-time in, uh, may of last year, 22. So, um, and he's, he's actually been a member for a long time. I figured. Probably, yeah. Yeah. I believe he was member number eight, I wanna say. Oh gosh. In, in Colorado. Um, So he was, remember number eight, and then he actually started a downtown group for us, um, in like 2015 or 2016. Okay. And then ran that group and then he's kind of been like a utility player for us. Yeah. Um, you know, he'll go out and help up, like most valuable volunteer kind of thing. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, if there's a group that's kind of, you know, hit a roadblock or something, he'll go in and like, oh cool. You know, uh, get'em, get'em jazzed up and, you know, kind of grease the wheels a little bit. Um, so he was doing that for a long time and then, um, you know, all the stars aligned and we were able to snag him last year. So That's cool. That's cool. Cause I assume that, that he was a volunteer for most of that time. Yeah. Just like giving into the cause and whatever and, yep. That's really cool that, uh, you know, to be fair, like, um, he, he was totally volunteer and he just really bought into the whole concept. Right. But I think he. In doing so. Um, he used to be in the commercial furniture business. He was selling, you know, office furniture. I think he sold just, this is just from fire, right. Firestorm referrals, like just straight business from the group. Um, probably six or$7 million. Right. Yeah. It wasn't a strictly uh, you know, altruistic and you know. Right. He was winning too from that. He was winning a lot activity and that was yeah. One of, one of the reasons that he engaged is cuz he was winning from it too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, you know, it was crazy because over all those years, um, going back to 2015, he was the only commercial furniture person that we had in the group. So between all those groups. Yeah. All yeah. So interesting. Yeah. And I think maybe it was a little by design on his part. Oops. I couldn't find anybody. Great. So that's funny. Hey, I'm gonna take a real quick break. So what we were, when we left off, we were kind of just really talking about the principles that you'd installed Yeah. As Firestorm came into, into developing what it is now. Yeah. Which is really a regionally successful, uh, connections and development group. I want to jump in the time machine and learn, cuz it, it didn't just happen, right? It took time, influences all that kind of stuff. So let's jump and go back and find little Phil. Yeah. Cool. Uh, second grade where, uh, what was your life like? Where were you at? Um, so it's interesting, uh, I, I got back, I had visited, uh, my parents, um, my dad and my stepmom, um, a couple days ago. Oh. Took my son out there. Um, home is Minnesota. Okay. And we were actually talking about, um, second grade and, and kind of around that time and, you know, there Mrs. Baker was my second grade teacher for Atworth. Yeah. Yep. Nice. I actually, you know, so I went to a private school in second grade and I didn't pay a whole lot of attention that particular year, so I don't remember my second grade teachers. I could be wrong about Mrs. Baker. She might be a first grade. Yeah. I dunno. Uh, I, I, I had some, you know, sort of, you know, teachers that stuck out for sure. That helped me out a lot. But anyway. Um, so are you in the cities of Minnesota or are you in the country of Minnesota? Yeah. Cause there's a lot of difference. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's, it was, um, second grade in particular was sort of the northern suburbs of, uh, St. Paul, um, St. Paul, Minneapolis. So I, I was living in East Bethel, um, which is maybe 45 minutes north of Minneapolis. Yep. And it was, um, I went to a private school, um, for that one year. And it was, that was second grade. That was second grade. Okay. And it was the year that my parents got divorced. Oh, okay. And so that was part of private Catholic school or private? Uh, Christian. Christian school, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, we'll get into the religion stuff later, but Yeah, no, no worries. Uh, like were they trying to straighten you out by putting you in a private school? No, I think they're getting a divorce. No. Uh, I think it was just, um, you know, they did your behavior cause their divorce, Phil? Yeah, probably. Oh, uh, no. I'm sure it didn't, but at all, kids think that kind of stuff sometimes. Absolutely. Unfortunately. So, yeah. Um, no, it was, uh, I think it was just sort of, you know, they wanted to have a, a nice place for us to go to school. Yeah. And, um, I had gone to a private school in kindergarten and then took a break in first grade and then anyway, whatever. So, um, so your life was about to change though. Yeah. And, and so, um, sort of to the origin story of, you know, firestorm. I think this actually plays into it where, you know, I started out in kindergarten. I went to one school, um, I went to actually three separate schools for first grade. Wow. Um, and then I went to another school in second grade and, you know, totally different, like not the same group of kids. And then another school for third, fourth, fifth, and then another one for sixth through. You know, 12th. So like I, we moved around a lot, especially, especially in your, those early years. Mm-hmm. You could either not have any friends or Good, good at making friends quickly. Exactly. So I got good at making friends quickly. Yeah. And um, and then one of the other things that, um, I apparently my dad didn't know, uh, which I thought was kind of funny. Um, I. We didn't have any money, you know, we were poor. Like he knew that part, right. So. Right. I'm sure he, I'm sure he did. What, what was he poor doing, or, um, so he was moving around a lot, trying to find a career that fit kind of, or So, um, no, the, the first few moves were, you know, the family was growing and they were trying to like, you know, find a better place for us to live. Um, I have, uh, four younger bro, or three younger brothers, so there's four of us. Okay. Yep. Um, I'm the oldest and, you know, so the, as the family was growing, it was like, okay, this apartment's too small. Let's move you another place. Oh, that's too small. Let's go to another house. Yep. Um, and then they got divorced and, and then my mom and I, uh, moved into an apartment, and then she was trying to, you know, get us a house. Your mom and I, but not the, um, kids. Uh, no, sorry, my Yeah, my brothers too. Brothers too. Yeah. So, uh, But, so there's a lot of moving around and there wasn't a lot of resources. My dad, you know, was a mailman and Okay. You know, he did that for 37 or 38 years and then he retired. Yeah. And he was, um, you know, I mean, he did the best he could, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, you know, you got child support and you're trying to, you know, pay your, you know, basically paying two rent payments, you know, like, it's, it's a lot. So, um, I knew from a young age that if I wanted anything, I was on my own for it, you know, like if I want to get pop and candy and that kind of stuff, like, you gotta go figure out how to do it. So, yeah. Um, so I started hustling and I would like sell. Uh, sold fireworks on the playground. Okay. And, um, little like smoke bombs and, you know, stink bombs like leftover from 4th of July you'd Yeah. Buy some extras and then sell'em. Yep, exactly. Yeah. So, um, you know, get a little money on the side to, you know, go buy Mountain Dew and candy cigarettes and all that, so. Right. Um, so it, uh, isn't that funny how you must be about the same age as me if you remember Candy cigarettes? Oh, yeah, yeah. I was, I'm 1980 baby, so Oh yeah, no, I'm quite a bit older. Are you? Yeah. But anyway, I guess they still had'em around then. Yeah, they did. Um, not for long, but you know, they're, they were there, so, uh, but it was, um, white Lightning. Do you remember White Lightning? I do. I'm Mountain Duke competitor for a while. Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, they're man, all those, uh, and Shasta, uh, sure. Um, but, uh, yeah, so, so between those two things, you know, I think that was kind of the beginning of my. Sales career. Yeah. And actually my dad reminded me of a story that I had totally forgot about, and I, you know, wasn't top of mind for me, but he said, when I was in second grade, um, we had, we were going to this church and, uh, they had a contest for, you know, a gumball machine and that that was the prize. And they said whoever could bring the most kids to, um, this like vacation bible school. Um, got the gumball machine. Oh. So I was like, heck yeah, like, let's go. I started recruiting kids and uh, wound up, you know, we needed like a big van to bring'em all to vacation Bible school, so. That's awesome. Yeah. Um, So, yeah, that was, uh, that was my jam and I started, uh, started hustling pretty, pretty young, and then it just kind of carried on into, you know, later years. Yeah. So what kind of a, like, you have an unstable family environment, you're the oldest mm-hmm. Of all these brothers, probably a lot of pressure as well. Or did you handle that pressure by, by being a good kid and leading your little brothers? Or did you kind of be a bad kid or somewhere in the middle? Well, somewhere in the middle. How, how much younger were your brothers? Was it like boom, boom, boom, boom? Yeah, it was like, you know, my, uh, two years younger, four years younger, and then 10 years younger, so I gotcha. Yeah. I mean, there was a, a decent amount of spacing. Yeah. I'm the, I'm the oldest of four as well. I just have one sister along the way and 10 years younger is how old Joe is, so, okay. Cool. Yeah, I know, know the, know the sensation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, so definitely, you know, pressure and, you know, I don't think I was, uh, On either extreme, like super good or super bad. Yeah. But, um, you know, I, but you're always connecting. Yeah. And, and hustling, always hustling and, you know, I, I did, I got good grades. Like that was my, I'm, I'm a smart kid. I'm book smart. Like I was on the accounting team in high school, like Okay. Didn't drink until I, you know, was old enough to drink and, you know, all that nonsense. Yeah. Um, and I didn't party and, you know, so I kept my nose clean in that regard. So you were responsible, you said a good example for your Yeah. Brothers. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, and then, so you say you, uh, grew up with your mom mostly. Yeah. Not your dad so much. Correct. Did she didn't remarry until you guys were gone, or She did after a while. Do you have a stepdad's or anything? Uh, no. Stepdad. Um, and he, you know, Uh, she, she had, you know, boyfriends and stuff. Sure. But, um, and there were some, some guys that, you know, we connected with and, you know, that were around. But, uh, but yeah. No, you were just, you were the bros mostly. Yeah. Yep. And with mom. Yeah, exactly. And she was very, very into, you know, being mom. Yeah. And it was it. That's awesome. She was good at it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. What, uh, what was your next step, you know, after high school and, and things like that? So, um, I thought that I was going to go to college and do the whole, like, I wanted to be either an accountant or uh, an engineer. Um, yeah. Which was kind of a far cry from what I actually wound up doing. Um, so I, uh, I got, I, you know, working young. I started when I was 14. I. And I got an, a job offer from my girlfriend's dad in high school. Okay. Um, I was pulling chairs at the local ski hill and uh, he said, Hey, you know, why don't you come telemarket for me? Um, really, I'll pay a six. I think it was six bucks an hour. Right. And that was about a dollar. Yeah. Four, four and a quarter or 4 75 or something was minimum wage at that time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's what I was making at the ski hill. And he said, I'll pay six bucks an hour to come dial the phones. Yeah. And I was like, sweet, sign me up. Right. You never get cold. Yeah. Um, so I went and tele marketed and then, uh, I got really good at it. And then, uh, the next summer, um, I got recruited to sell Cutco knives. Oh. And that was the summer between my junior and senior year in high school. Wow. And I k I killed it. I made$7,000 that summer. Or 10 or something Dumb. Yeah. Or more. Yeah. And then, um, and then I was hooked, right. And I was like, Ooh, there's, I could either go to college and, you know, not make money Right. And hopefully get a good job that I'm gonna make, you know, whatever dollar amount or I could follow this Cutco path. And I kind of got into the management track. Oh, right on. And you're, you're a Cutco, uh, spawn. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they, they got their hooks in me and it was, it was actually a really good experience. So, yeah. For sure. Well, it's so cool how, like, here in Fort Collins, hp Yeah. Um, you know, some of their downsizings and stuff would spawn off a bunch of entrepreneurs cause they didn't want to leave, but they didn't want to stay with a big company and Sure. HP was the only big tech company that you could work for here. Yeah. Or. Like Neon company when David Neon operated it, I think, I don't think it's been the same company since, but when David had it, construction contractors would just be spawned out of that company because it was like they taught people how to do things good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Cutco is another one of those that just kind of Absolutely creates college propan or painters. Yeah. Yeah. Created m and e painting in some respects or whatever, and others, you know, and, uh, Southwest books. Right. Um, you know, they're all those guys. Yeah. And the, uh, there's a thing up in Vancouver, uh, builders Training Academy or something like that. Oh, I'm not familiar with that one. Bta, uh, yeah. Another like, kind of built from those big systems. Yeah. And then they took the best of that. And then, and even probably, I suspect we're gonna flash ahead. I'm, I'm, I'm not annoying that guy that way, but like some of the principles of firestorm. Were some of the things you learned at Cutco 20 years before or 10 years before? A hundred percent, yeah. Um, you know, so one of the things that Cutco is really big on is you don't cold call you, you get referrals. Hmm. So you start out with a warm list of all your friends and family. Mm-hmm. And then you ask them for referrals and they teach you how to, you know, they give you and script fueling. You never like looking through the phone book. Yep, exactly. Um, so I, because of my circumstances, I didn't have a lot of rich friends and Yeah. Stuff like that, you know, like I had to, there were a couple people I knew that could get me into a couple other people that, you know, yeah. Could make me, you know, uh, go off and, uh, so I got, I got really, so you had to really focus on the right customer. Yep. I got really, really tuned in on Ideal client and I got really, really good at asking for referrals. Yeah. And getting, getting good referrals. Yeah. So, um, that was my jam and, uh, That turned into a six year career with Cutco. Oh, wow. Yeah. Were you traveling around teaching other people how to do it the right way or just slinging knives? So I sold for the first year and a half, and then I started an office. Um, that's kind of the path with Cutco as you, you know, open a branch office. Okay. And then you recruit kids and you teach them how to sell, and then you, um, you get 5% off of each of their sales or whatever. Yes. Yeah. Something like that, depending. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's, I did a branch office in Southern Minnesota and then I, um, went back the next summer and did a, a branch office in northern Minnesota in Oh wow. In Duluth, Uhhuh. And then I was in Duluth for like three years, so. Wow. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. And I, you know, total, um, I think I recruited 1100 kids. What? Yeah. Yeah. So. Oh, that's awesome. It was crazy. Yeah. That's a big, that's a big amount of people. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty cool. So, um, and taught a lot of kids how to sell and, and it was really fun to see the success stories, you know, from all those kids. Yeah. And I mean, I still did, and some of'em stayed with Cutco for a while. Most of them went on to bless other companies. Mm-hmm. By bringing those skills that you helped'em learn Yeah. Into their organization. Absolutely. And, you know, some of the, some of the coolest stories, you know, from kids that, you know, didn't really know what they were gonna do and, and then they were like, Hey, I can afford to pay for a really good college. Um, because of less money that I'm making. And so they went on and got degrees and, and they, uh, yeah. So it, it was, it was really cool and really rewarding. No regrets there. No regrets. Yeah. Yeah. It was, and a lot of appreciation. Yeah. Because you could have worked at a restaurant, you could have done a lot of things that normal, you know, in that combination really between the telemarketing and the Cutco boots on the ground experience was really a magic part of it, huh? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you get really good at handling rejection and you get a tough skin and, uh, and then, you know, learn that well and smart enough not to like call on cold people that don't want your stuff all the time. Yeah, exactly. Yep. So yeah, there was, uh, there was a lot of, a lot of good stepping stones into, to what I'm doing now, so, yeah. Cool. Yeah. So, um, What's next? You said you had a five year career with Cutco. Yep. Um, did you find a girl you like or anything yet along this journey? Uh, you know, nothing worth talking about. Well, you found a few, but nothing. Put a ring on it. I got, yeah, I, I did get engaged for a hot second, but that's, uh, that's another story. How was Duluth? What was that like compared to growing up kind of in the suburbs of the city? I've, I've visited Duluth. Yeah. And it seems really cool. And, and where was the town in southern Minnesota where you put an office too? Uh, so my office in southern Minnesota was in Mankato. Oh, sure. So, yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. There's a co college towns Right. So, um, and then Duluth was awesome. I love living in Duluth. Um, actually where I bought my first house. Mm-hmm. And I, I was 24 when I bought my first house. Um, and then, uh, that's a, it's such a really fun, cool town. Yeah. Yeah. And had a great time there, so it seemed really cool. And we drove the coast all the way down, whatever, and went down to Wisconsin and stuff. Nice. But Duluth has got like, it's an amazing, like coastline. Yeah, yeah. It's beautiful. And I mean, not just Duluth, but up and down it's like, yeah. Up and down. It amazing. It's uh, and if you guys haven't been there, like you gotta go check it out at least once in your life. It's like being on the ocean and, totally. Yeah. Which is crazy cuz it's a freshwater lake. But anyway. Um, so yeah, I loved it there. And I go back to, to visit, um, you know, relatively regularly. Yes. You know, family and cousins and stuff like that. Still up and around friends from high school, whatever. Um, but, uh, Yeah. So, um, after I got done with Cutco, we did, um, I did a year in copier sales for Canon. Oh. Um, that was a. Good learning experience it. They might have promised a few things cause that didn't really materialize. Yeah, it was, and copiers were way more boring to sell than knives. And so I learned about the necessity of selling things that I actually wanted to sell. Yep. Yep. Definitely not getting outta bed and being like, woo. Could sell copiers. Woo. Um, yeah, it was, uh, it was boring, but, but I sold some copiers, sold some copiers. I made my house payments. I stayed alive. Yep, exactly. It was fine. Were you still in Duluth here? Uh, no. I had moved down to the city, so I see. Yeah. That was part of it. You're like, I like move the cities and whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and then I, one of the accounts that I called on, uh, for selling copiers, um, was, uh, Tom James. Um, so they're, I dunno what that is, custom suit company. Oh, interesting. Okay. They were like, yeah, we don't need any copiers, but, uh, hey, you ever thought about selling suits? And I was like, no, no, tell me more. Right. Um, sounds easier to be apart. Yeah. A different clientele. Different clientele. And it, you know, way more exciting than, did you have a big beard back then? Oh, God, no. Yeah, I wouldn't think that would really sell suits that much. Yeah. Clean, clean shaven. I usually shave my head, not, not like all down to the skin, but it was like, you know, really short, tight. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, and I And you're looking sharp all the time. Yeah. At that time, right? Like wearing a six days a week. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, which, uh, for those of you who can't see me, uh, if you're just listening on, on, you know, the podcast, I, uh, I have a long beard. I have long hair and, uh, you know, I look a baseball cap, a spider, very nice spider jacket, thanks thing. I don't know. Call it a fleece jacket or something. Yeah, it's, it's, uh, you know, but this is, this is the uniform, this Colorado. Right. We, we've worked hard to earn, I was a banker for a long time and I wore a lot of suits. I wore a lot of neckties, and now the once a year I wear a neck tie, I'm like, that's fine. I don't have to wear it every day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, I got a closet full of nice suits though, so Right. Every once in a while I'll throw one on. Yeah, I, I do too, but. It's hard to button them sometimes. Yeah. Anyway, so you're selling suits, having a good time living in the cities. Yep. It was, uh, it was cool. We did that for, Hmm. I think I was there five years. Nice. And, and that's when I started firestorm. Oh wow. Okay. So it was during that suit time where I was kind of looking to build that network of people. Yeah. Um, you know, again, I was kind of, uh, but there's a benefit for you. You're like, I'm gonna get all the kind of rich people that I know together that I can, that are actually delivering B2B products. Mm-hmm. Because they're the people that actually buy suits. Yeah. Yeah. And, and and, and they should connect with each other anyway. Yeah, they should. And, um, and so I had, I had looked for, and everybody's always calling me asking who I know that does X. Yep. Yep. So, um, I had. I'd looked for other organizations to join. Okay. And there was actually one of my clients that I sold suits to that owned an organization called Grapevine. Okay. And they don't exist anymore, but it was, you know, back in the day, um, it was kind of a, you know, local, one of those 1000, yeah. Different models. Yep. And, uh, but it was still the same ish and it was, it was good, you know, but it was, uh, it was a small organization in Minneapolis. And I, um, went to, uh, went to him and his partners and I was like, Hey, you know, if we made a couple of tweaks, um, this would be a lot better for all the members. You know, we'd get more business out of it. It'd be more efficient, yada, yada, yada. And they said, nah, we're good. We're not gonna do that. And I was like, all right, cool. That's, you know. No problem. I'm gonna just go over here and do it myself. So, um, my, uh, my buddy Chris and I. Decided to start it up on our own. Okay. And, uh, at the beginning there was no, what were the tweaks, can I ask? Yeah. So, um, there was a little bit more to do with ideal client stuff. Mm-hmm. And a little bit more focus on, you know, being more intentional with the introductions and the referrals that we were making. And so, you know, instead of. Just making introductions for introductions sake, like Mm. Hey Kurt, here's this name of a person I met at Subway the other day. Like Right, you might need local think tank. Yeah. I don't, I don't know. I don't know, but I better than a cold call. Right? I'm introducing you to him, right? Yeah. Um, not really. Uh, but no, it's worse. So, cause I got my hopes up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I was like, you know, we should stop doing that and make actual, you know, meaningful introductions, um, be a lot better for everybody and, uh, They were like, nah, we're good. So anyway, um, there was no business plan, you know, like we didn't start firestorm to like build a business. We started it to really just get cool people that we wanted to do business with that wanted to do business a certain way together. And, um, and so it started out as a happy hour and the, the bar that we met at, um, was called Majors and it was in Golden Valley, Minnesota. And they, uh, we did a couple of Really? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So we did a couple of groups, you know, or a couple of meetings there. And then I think our third one, we had like a hundred people show up. Whoa. Yeah. And the bar was kind of mad at us because they were understaffed and we told'em we were gonna have 20 people there. And what blew it up So crazy like that just, you know, you gotta see this group. It's a little different than other things that people have done. I mean, this wasn't, you didn't reinvent the wheel? No, no. It was not a reinventing the wheel at all. It was just, you know, I think. There was a combination of things. Um, one you mentioned the B2B thing. We didn't actually make the change to B2B until 2012. Oh, okay. Um, so this was 2005 and we actually were more on the consumer side of things. Mm-hmm. And so, um, I was selling suits, which is a very consumer oriented thing. Right, right. Um, my buddy Chris, um, who's co-founder of Firestorm, he was, he owned a title company. Um, so he was doing residential title. Right. And then 2005, you know, peak of the real estate market. So like, Everybody's killing it. Mm. Running around driving, you know? Yeah. At least fancy cars, BMWs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stuff like that. So, you know, and we're all young. I mean, we were, I was 25 and you know, Chris is a couple years older than me, but, um, you know, it was like that mid twenties to late twenties crew. Everybody's making money and, you know, living the 25 living large. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and they just wanted a drink, you know, so like everybody came out to party and there was always some like, well, craft beer was finally making its way to the cities. There was a little bit of that surly, you know? Yeah, absolutely. That and, and then, um, and the other thing was there was always some mortgage wholesale rep that would pick up the tab, and That's awesome. Yeah. Um, oh, so that was part of your model. Somebody's. It, it, we didn't, it just happened. You didn't make, it just happened. We didn't mean it to be that way, but, but, but there's some guy that's got some expense budget available still for March, and he is like, huh, I could have 60 people hear my name, you know? Yep. Yeah. Interesting. So, yeah, it worked out pretty good. And so, um, we did, uh, we just did happy hours for a while and then, um, and then one day we were like, you know, maybe there's something more to this. We should like start doing the regular group thing and um, yeah. Put some structure behind it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we started doing, um, you know, a little bit more regular meetings and then, um, it, uh, it started to grow from there and, you know, we officially like, became a business, you know, maybe nine months later or something. Okay. Yep. Um, and then, uh, we actually is you and Chris still, you worked together for quite a while on this? Yeah. Um, so, um, 2008, I moved to Arizona and I was running a couple groups in Arizona. Okay. Also selling suits down in Arizona. Okay. Yep. Um, and then he was running Minneapolis. And then, um, I came back to, uh, Minneapolis in 2009 and I actually got out of the suit business in, uh, March of 2009 and decided to do firestorm full-time. Okay. So, um, yeah, so that, that was kind of the start of the full-time firestorm and he decided not to stay full-time or whatever, lost interest in along the way, along bit. He was doing other stuff, you know, the title company, um, thing had kind of, uh, fizzled out and he went on to some other like medical consulting things that he was actually his, um, forte is, and actually nowadays he's like one of the top three experts in the world on, you know, like healthcare. Um, information management stuff. Okay. Like what kind of system you should use for your organization kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like the big, you know, he's like a software architect Right, right. You know, state governments and stuff. So, so he's not feeling all but hurt because you kicked him out of firestorm or No, no, no. Something like that. He was like, here you go, you could have it. And he's still got a little piece of it, so. Oh, good. You know, eventually when, you know, if you have a big exit. Yeah. Yeah. He's gonna, I, I have actually a number that I want to get, um, because I know what his piece of it's gonna be. And I have, this is a little like, I don't know, this is, it's such a dumb thing, but, um, he was employee number 12 at a another startup, and he made a good amount of money from that. Um, and I know what the number is, and I also know the founder of that business. Yeah. And I want, I want him to make more money from Mike business than he did from, from your ex. Yeah. So, yeah. Is that your dream? Like you'd love to. Scale this to be something pretty significant and hire some professional management that some private equity wants to come in and snap you up. Or maybe it's another founder, uh, that would like to roll you up with his Yeah. It's, uh, I haven't really thought that far ahead. I'm still, you know, in the building phase. Yeah. Um, so whatever that looks like. And, and I think from a, from a founder perspective, it's, it's kind of a cool feather in your cap to say that you have had an exit. Yeah. Um, and you've gotten, you know, you've sold a business. Um, but from a lifestyle and financial perspective, right. I don't know that it's, I have no real interest in selling it right now. Yeah. And you know, it's, if you've built it the right way, um, you know, it should run pretty efficiently with minimal effort, you know, like, Uh, that's, that's why you build businesses, right? Like Yeah. Not so you can work extra hard all the time Yeah. At a job you don't really like. Yeah. So it could just wind up being like a portfolio company, so. Hmm. Yeah. Fair. Yeah. Um, well, good luck in that path. What's your next steps? You wanna get Fort Collins open this summer, is that right? Yeah, Fort Collins is on the, on the list. Um, you know, I think Nate is really focused on this northern corridor, so, um, Loveland and, and Longmont and maybe even Cheyenne, any of those communities could be, but they would be individual groups. It wouldn't be individual groups there together. Yep, exactly. So, yeah. Although Johnstown could probably be a Loveland. Yeah. Businesses could join that or probably already do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, Greeley is out there and Yeah. It's kind of its own thing, right? Yep. Cool. Um, yeah, so that's, uh, that's the path and, and I think Denver, uh, Metro has a lot of room to grow. Um, And there's, uh, you know, we've, we've dabbled in other states. Um, I think I'm kind of done with that for a little bit. Yeah. Just focus on Colorado. I'm looking my wounds from previous efforts to scale myself. It's, it sounds cool. You know, and then you get into it and you're like, Ugh, God, this boner, sorry. Yeah. Um, so what's the, what's the commitment like, uh, or do you not publish that necessarily from a, do you have to sign up for a year? A couple years? Is it thousand bucks? Couple, you know, how, what's the cost to it? Round, round numbers. It's a couple thousand bucks and, and I really expect people to be part of it for a year. For a year. Yeah. Gotcha. Um, and I think that ideally, you know, I mean, our historical numbers, you know, our average member's with us for, you know, three or four years. Yeah. Um, so, you know, I don't need people to say, you know, like, I, I shouldn't have to say you're here for a year, cuz you don't. I know that based on our experience it's three or four, but Yeah. Yeah. But I really want people to have that long-term focus. Right. It's not something you can dip your toe in the water and you can show up for a quarter. Right. And say, well, let me reevaluate after three months. Yeah, yeah. You know, this is a long-term commitment. Yeah. And building a network of, of people is, is a long play. Oh. It's still people. Uh, we hope you, well, we want you to, to think you'll be here for at least a year when you joined local. Mm-hmm. But give us 30 days notice if it's not working. Yeah. Yeah. Whether that's two years in or six months in, or your mom just got diagnosed with cancer and I'm gonna, I love it, but I'm gonna leave, you know? Yep. Yeah. Anyway, I digress. But that's, that's the mentality cuz it does, whether it's your, you know, the, the relationships of your organization are ours. Like, it just takes a while for people to understand each other. Yeah, a hundred percent. And, and for change to proceed or to know whether people are. For real. Yeah. You know, do you ask people to leave sometimes if you find out somebody's, uh, not a good fit, or do they self elect? Um, very rarely because we have a good application process. Okay. Um, but every once in a while somebody slips through the cracks and, you know, I'm like, Ooh, that that shouldn't happen. Uh, but usually after two or three other people up in that group leave and you're like, Hmm. What's going on over there in Lakewood? Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, but luckily it's, it's really rare and it, uh, I don't like having those conversations. Yeah. It's, you know, it's never fun, so for anybody involved. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I, I think, um, the whole, you know, it's hiring is the same, you know, it's like slow to hire, quick to fire. Yeah. Um, same deal with adding new members, you know, slow to Adam, quick to get rid of'em. So, so people visit once or twice even, and then whatever you, you sign'em on. Does your membership get. Feedback. Hey, we Kent visited. Do you guys like Kent? Yeah. Should I bring'em back again? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And, and then, um, there's a whole like application on the website that, you know, oh, if people get a pre, they have to answer all these questions. And then it gets submitted to the chapter. The chapter gets notification, um, they get to vote, you know, there's Oh wow. You know, a whole online system where they vote. And then so you got some pretty good tech associated, have you built that yourself or you white labeling something? No, we built it all custom. Okay. Says I, I started building it in oh nine. Um, actually the first website we had in, back in oh five was uh, an I Web Okay. Page. Yep. Um, and uh, and then we started building custom stuff in, in oh nine and just really, um, I couldn't find anything that did exactly what I wanted. Yeah. And after a few attempts to cobble something together, I was like, you know what? We just need to. Do this on our own and Wow. Make exactly what I want. Hmm. So interesting. Yeah. I'll have to check it out sometime cause Totally mine, you know, I'm just cobbled together with, you know, I got a good website and background systems and stuff, but nothing that really does yours. Is yours also a communications platform for the membership to each other or? Um, no, not that yet. Not that yet, but it's an option and I just, um, we've experimented with, you know, uh, adoption of that and Right. You know. Yeah. I don't wanna do a bunch of stuff that nobody's gonna use. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's really tough for me because I'm an idea guy. You know, like I get excited about it. I'm like, oh dude, it'd be so cool if we could do this and Right. Right. And then you realize like, nobody cares. Right. I recorded the meetings early on in Loco Think Tank. Yeah. Like literally like set a tape recorder on the table, uploaded that to my wordpress.org website. Yeah. Did that for months. Yeah. And I'm not sure, I think I found out like, Basically, nobody ever listened to it like me a couple times and maybe one other person once. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always frustrating when you Oh, it's so much work too. Yeah, yeah. Like all that upload time and stuff. Anyway. Yeah, no, I digress. Yeah, no, I get it. Um, so where does, uh, this pivot to B2B come and did you start the B2C thing right at the same time? No. Um, and is, and is firestorm still up in Minnesota too? In Arizona or anything there? Or is that, yeah. Um, you focused geographically when you moved here? That's where I'm at. Yeah. So, so, um, I'll real quick, the, sorry, lots of questions. Yeah, no worries. Um, so it, it, they kind of go together though. So we, we did Minnesota, Wisconsin, and um, in Arizona. Those were kind of our first three states and we had groups going in all of those at the same time. At that point I was living in Minneapolis. Um, I. Moved to Germany for Okay. A little bit. Um, and when I left, just for fun or chasing a girl, chasing a girl. Okay. Uh, not my wife. So it worked out. Oh, good. Yep. Um, was worth it. Yep. Totally worth it. Uh, so we, I, I, I needed to go do that, so I hired somebody in Minneapolis to run it. And when I left, we had 30 groups in Minnesota, um, and a couple in Arizona and, and, um, a couple Wisconsin. So, um, I went to Germany and when we came back from Germany, we moved to Miami. Okay. Um, and then Miami was when we made the change to b2b. Okay. And the Minnesota, uh, location and Arizona and Wisconsin didn't fare so well. Um, that was a very poor hire on my part. Uh, I learned a lot of lessons on that one. Right. Um, you know, namely, Uh, I, I, I knew in my gut that it was the wrong thing to do. This was how long and how much did they shrink it by? Uh, one year. It was a year, and it went from 30 to like three. Oh, wow. Yeah. It was bad. So it, it was, it was painful. I wanna zoom in. You said you knew in your heart or in your gut before you left, that it was the wrong person for it. Yeah. Yeah. And I, um, it was just one of those things where I, you were desperate. I was desperate and I thought, I really wanted to believe that his enthusiasm mm-hmm. For the business would trump all of his shortcomings. Yeah. And it didn't. Yeah. And I knew it wouldn't, you know, but I, I did it anyway and it was a, it was a painful decision, but, um, good, you know, lessons learned, right? Yeah. And, and I complained about this stuff to my dad. Um, who by the way, you know, I mentioned before, he is not a business guy. He's a mailman. And anytime I have a big loss and I'll complain about it, he's like, well, it's tuition in the school of life. Right? Like, damn it, that's, that's really good. Like, yeah. So, um, anyway, so we were in Miami. Um, I started groups there. I I built up eight groups in Miami and we, um, we had in like a year or a few years. Yeah. It was like a year and a half. Wow. Um, and then I, I started to kind of think about like, cuz I was reconsidering what I was gonna do with my life. You know, do I still want to continue on with firestorm? Do I want to do something else? You know, there's some other opportunities out there. And I started to think, um, what really makes me happy? What do I ex, you know, gets me excited about firestorm? What am I trying to do with this whole thing? Yeah. Yada, yada yada. Yeah. And I, you just kinda narrow your pointer a little bit. Yeah. And, and I really started to, to, um, Think I like small businesses, you know, I love helping small businesses. I've been a small business owner multiple times, and you know, I just, I like that piece of it. And I didn't necessarily love the consumer side of things. I didn't mm-hmm. I didn't love, you know, the Mary Kay ladies and the, you know, nothing wrong with that. Right? I cut, I cut my teeth on Cutco, you know, like, sure, there's, I'm a hundred percent supportive if that's what you wanna do for your, you know, your business. But I didn't enjoy the conversations. There was a different kind of conversation that I would have with people that were, you know, selling to other businesses. It's a more complex sale, it's less emotional. It's there, there's all this other stuff that's involved in it, and I got excited about that piece of it. So, um, there was a friend of mine. Um, who owned a Sandler franchise in Miami, and he was like, Hey man, you know, you should just make a business business. Like there's a, there's a hole in the market for that. You know, like we need more, you know, strictly business. Strictly business, business stuff. Yeah. Because like, you know, at that point you'd go out to events that were just a hodgepodge of everybody and you know, the guys that are selling, um, to businesses don't really care about, they don't wanna be there even, yeah. They're like, uh, if I have to talk to one more Northwestern Mutual sales guy, you know, um, right. So, so I was like, okay, that makes sense. Let's do business, business. And so we, we made the change to a hundred percent b2b, and we kind of, we still had some groups that were. From the old school. You didn't kick people out? I didn't kick'em out, I just kind of let'em run their course. Yeah. And then, um, so we were in Miami for a couple years and then my wife and I decided to move here. Okay. And, and we came to Denver in 2014 and, and then made it, um, you know, clean slate. It's like when you go to college you can be anything you want. Yeah. And I'm like, firestorms b2b. So I like it. Yeah. Anything left in Florida? No. That was, uh, just kinda let that go too. Whatever. Yes. There isn't enough value that you can add to them necessarily. Yeah. That from afar it's really, I disagree with that statement, but it is a hard, it's a challenge. You weren't ready yet Yeah. To do that. And, and it, yeah. It's, it's weird. Yeah. You know, when you're not, when you don't have a physical presence, people really feel like they're an island and it's, uh, even if it's not. Objectively any different, the value that you're bringing. Yeah, yeah. You know, cuz really what I do is build a system, you know, and, and like give you the system to build a group. Yeah. Um, right. And why does, why do I have to be not very far away for that to really work? Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's very odd. It's interesting how, uh, when in, when, in 2014, what month in 2014 did you get here? We got here in May. So February of 2014 was when local think tank effectively started, just went nine years. So, nice. You were kind of clean, slating it from there. Yeah. And uh, we have much different models, but a lot of similarity in client based demographic and just journey. I'm getting, uh, I am the bottleneck T-shirts. Yeah. I tell you about that. That's awesome. I think that's, um, and, and it's the same, you know, it's you, but it's also each of your groups in some ways, most of the members of them. Even for a salesperson that's just with a big company Yeah. You're still the bottleneck on your own performance. Yep. Even if you're a high school teacher. Yeah. Or a mailman. Yep. Yeah. That's awesome. Anyway, I digress. I love those. Um, so your dream remains, I guess, to, to maybe turn that 18 into 35 up and down the front range of Colorado and then start talking more about Miami groups or Omaha groups or, yeah. Do you have a notion about where you would like to go from there? Do you want to stay like, I've been imagining in the my past like, Hey, I should go to Cheyenne or Steamboat or Colorado Springs. You know, maybe stay outta Denver cuz it's too. Big an elephant to bite off for sure. My local community, kind of centric group. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or maybe just go to Florida where there's, you know, 30 towns that are communities into themselves with 50 or 200,000 or 500,000 people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I, um, I don't a hundred percent know the answer to that question, but I, I do think I like the kind of mid-market towns. Like I'm not, you know, we're not a good fit for New York or Chicago or LA or, you know, even Seattle seems large. Yeah. You know, but, but the Minneapolis's, the Denvers, the Austin, San Diego, you know, even Omaha, Omaha, like Boise, Idaho. Right. That kind of stuff. Okay. You know, so, um, where there's enough of a community to still be a community Yep. But not. Too small to have those kind of businesses. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, so is Fort Collins, like we're, we're approaching that size, I suppose, right? Yeah, I think Fort Collins is great. You know, I, I, it's not going to, um, you know, it's not gonna support 50 groups or something, but, you know, we, we could probably have like five. Right. Fair. And that's a, that's a fine little business, you know, satellite piece of a, a larger metro area. Are there gonna be opportunities, like do people earn income, like by launching and managing groups, or do they just get kind of free membership or something? Or like, what's the motivation for people to start groups? So, um, the, the motivation should be and, um, I think is the, The ability to build something around your, you know, interest. You're the gravity of it. You're the gravity of it. Um, you're gonna sell more office furniture. Exactly. Whatever. And you can, you can handpick the people that are in that core group of people, right? Mm-hmm. So the people that are really gonna move the needle for your business mm-hmm. You know, you're really good strategic partners, so you're adding value to them by being the organizer, you're adding value, you're receiving a lot of value because those people are out talking to your ideal clients. You know, there's, there's a strategy in who you get in the room to begin with. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think that's really the biggest piece of it. And then kind of putting yourself as the nucleus of that and, you know, being the contact, um, for reaching out to people and any incoming inquiries and all that kind of stuff. And there's an elevated status, you know, that goes along with that. And then we do like chapter president meetings where all the chapter presidents get together. Mm-hmm. You know, we've got a lunch on Monday. There's a network there too. Yeah. You know, and that kind of like gets you out to these other, uh, this other group of people. So, um, You know, but they do as a, you know, thank you for your service to the organization. Get free dues. Um, that shouldn't be the reason they do it, but for sure, for sure. Um, well in, in local think tank, I've got facilitators that are the organizers and they actually kind of work for it and they don't need to sell anything. Yeah. They're an interested, so, you know, over a third of my revenue roughly goes to them. Cool. Um, where you don't really have that amphetamine. You can kind of, the revenue is a revenue Yeah, yeah. From a new client. Yeah. So, um, but you know, there's, as we expand into these other cities, you know, that's an, an option, right? Like potentially like, Hey, if I can find somebody that's the right connector in Austin. Yep. Maybe they should have more incentive than just being a satellite. Cause it's hard to be bigger. Yeah. I'm the bottleneck. Yep. Yeah, exactly. So, um, yeah, those are all, those are all options, but you do have more win win win on that or, you know, there's intrinsic individual benefit from putting that group of 15 together or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and you know, the, um, the chapter president usually has, uh, you know, their own business that they're trying to grow, and so that's their focus, not firestorm. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's, I, I want that to be their focus. Yeah. So fair. Yeah. Um, anything else on the business journey that we should, I feel like I've been played inquisitor number one here because, well, because I've been, I, I went to one online firestorm meeting. Okay. Got invited to the Johnstown group at some random point. Yeah. You know, I've hung out with Nate a couple of times. I'd, you know, for me, you know, selfishly, I think it'd be great to have a firestorm group or two or three here. Yeah. Because it's a nice little. Concentration of business to business owners. I could fish Right from your pool. Yeah. No, exactly. No, basically. And we could bless each other. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So let's keep talking about that. Um, and yeah, I like what you've built. I think it's very thoughtful. I appreciate, um, and uh, so when did you turn into a long beard? Kind of, uh, non-suit wearing guy? Uh, so I gave up the suit after. After, after I got outta the soup business in oh nine. Um, and I kind of, it, there was a gradual transition, you know, when we were in Miami I still wore'em a lot. Um, and then when we got here I was like, Ooh, I am the fish outta water here. If I, you know, like I, I put on a jacket and went to Boulder one time and they were like, uh, are you going to a funeral later? Um, so after I got that I was like, okay, I guess I can wear what I want now here. Yeah. So the uniform now is, you know, kind of jeans and a button down, um, or you know, a sweater or a sweater or whatever. Yeah. So, um, and then I started the girl in the beard out in pretty much when we got here. You know, I shaved it for my wedding. We got married in February of 2015. Okay. Um, I shaved for my wedding and then I haven't shaved since and she's cool. Yeah. Uh, and it's kind of funny like, cuz you know, we talk about this and she was like, I never. Thought that I would date anybody, no less marry somebody with long hair or facial hair. Right. So, um, got both surprise. Yep. I like it. Well, um, let's take a short break and then we'll come back and jump into the closing segments. Sounds good. All right, thanks. And we're back. So when we left, um, we were talking about all things business, and some word you said along the way made me realize that you, um, became a runner along this journey somewhere. Oh yeah. And I want to hear about, or maybe it was always from the beginning where you have like a runner in high school running around from house to house selling Cutco. Yeah. Pretty much not that. Yeah, no. Um, yeah, I, I think I, I had always kind of run, um, like short distances for working out, but the first like, major thing that kind of got me into, you know, air quotes running Yeah. As a endeavor. Um, Was when I was living in Duluth and I just got, uh, this idea that I needed to run a marathon. And I don't know what it was if I read an article somewhere Right. Or just was like, well, cuz I've bet I've lived in Minnesota. People don't really run there. I mean, if, if you're like a really active runner, usually you live somewhere else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Um, yeah. So I don't know, I don't know what it was, but I got this, uh, idea in my head that I needed to do a marathon and it was a bucket list thing. And so I started training for one, and I went from like nothing, you know, couch to marathon in a 16 week program. Oh, wow. And um, and I ran a marathon and I couldn't walk the next day and I thought I was gonna die. Right. And then a couple days later I was like, huh. I bet I could beat my time. I like it. So that started the whole, and you were like 24 ish or something like that time? Yeah, 24 that first time. Okay. And then, uh, you know, it just kind of became a, a sickness and I was like, now I need to go faster and farther. And so Do you want ultras now? No, I'm doing ultras. Yeah. Um, I didn't do that until we moved to Colorado and you know, I was always a road runner, marathoner. Um, now you're a trail runner more now I'm a trail runner and it's so much more fun, isn't it? Like the mental game? Yeah, the mental game and like the scenery and you know, you see all these animals out there. Right. And you know, just me and my thoughts, like, it's great. Well, and not. Just, I feel like when I'm road running, it's just me and my thoughts is me going run faster. You was run faster. You was like, there's nothing. But when you're running on a trail, it's like, ooh, don't step on that. Rocks. Make sure you lift your foot up over that one because Yep. If you've run trails, You, I'm sure you've taken more than a few falls where you're like, well, that was stupid. I just did this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, for sure I was shuffling out there when I needed to lift my feet up, you know? Yeah. And it's every, every second really. You gotta be paying attention to not crash. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. You can't zone out the way you do on a road. Right. And, and then when you're zoning, you're just kinda like, it's, you're out of the game more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, I, I like trail running a lot more. So what is your, what's your biggest race you've run? Do you do it competitively? No. Um, I'm mostly sports sport. I'm just for sport and keep in shape, you know, lets me drink more beer and eat some cheeseburgers. Um, but, uh, I'm like, you know, I'm middle of a pack maybe. Yeah. Uh, So my, my longest completed race okay, is a 50 miler. Um, I've done the, the silver rush 50 up in Leadville. Okay. Like three times, four times. That's a high elevation then too, right? Yeah. High elevation. A lot of, you know, up and down elevation gain. Um, and then I attempted the Leadville 100 last year. Um, and I didn't finish, so I've gotta score to settle with that race. And I'm going back this year again to attempt it. Well, you would be my, I'm myself and a handful of friends that are really not runners are gonna run the Wild West Relay this year. Oh yeah. Uh, Mandy Mullen has taken that race and the fall foliage race on. Okay. Um, and Mandy finished the Leadville 100 last fall. She was That's awesome. On the podcast, uh, back in November or so. So anyway, if you're interested in being the ringer on our team, whereas you're a middle of Pac Guy and most of you're running Yeah. You know, just let me know. We'll talk about it later. Cool. All right. Sounds good. Love it. It's a great race. A relay race, 12 person relay, or a six person or less if you're an ultra guy. Oh, okay. Cool. Uh, from Fort Collins to Steamboat. Oh, nice. Over Dead Man's Pass and down to Le Laramie River Valley. Sweet. It's really a cool race. Okay. Uh, so I'll tell you more later. Yeah, yeah. Lemme know. Um, and plug for anybody that likes to run along long ways far. Yeah. Uh, the, the Wild West really is a, is an amazing race to choose. So cool. Okay. Um, let's get into the closing segments. We've got, uh, faith, family, politics. Uh, do you have a first preference on e any of those? Uh, family. Okay. Yeah. Uh, tell me about this lady that, uh, uh, tolerates your beard so well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She is amazing. Um, her name is Jerry and we, uh, Jerry with, uh, G. Okay. Yeah, it's Jerry Ann. Um, and her, uh, grandparents, her, her dad's parents were both Jerry's, they were Gerald and Geraldine. Oh, interesting. And yeah. So, um, anyway, uh, she, she and I met at Octoberfest in Munich. Sorry. You're take, take. Okay. I like it. So, um, We, uh, were, I, I was there on vacation. Is she German? Um, she, yeah, a little bit, but not, not German. German. She was just there visiting like you. She, she was actually working there. Um, so she worked for Allian, big insurance company. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and so she was wor living there for a couple years and, um, she's actually from Seattle though, so. Right. Yeah. Uh, and you know, I guess it's a, a bit of a networking success story. You know, one of those, uh, you know, friend of a friend referral kind of things. So, um, I, I just have to say this, you know, since we were talking about the work stuff, it, it's a little bit related. When I started Firestorm in Minneapolis and I was selling suits, um, I met, you know, a bunch of guys because of the suit selling. One of them was, was my co-founder Chris. Sure. And that's how we met was, you know, the suit business. Yep. And then, um, he was part of that, uh, other startup that I had mentioned, made a bunch of money on, um, And one of his coworkers was this dude named thas and Thas, uh, is from Sri Lanka. Um hmm. And they worked together. And then I got introduced to Thas and he was a client of mine. And then we started hanging out and became friends. And so when I got the opportunity to go to Germany to go to Octoberfest, um, it was for another reason I was actually leading a marathon team over there to run the Berlin Marathon and Okay. Um, but I called my, my buddy Chris, um, and I said, Hey, you know, you gotta come to Germany with me and we're gonna go drink some beer. And, um, at that time, uh, thas had actually, w w was working for Allion's and Allion's Life headquarters is in Golden Valley, Minnesota. Okay. So, um, that's worked for Allan's Life, got transferred to the mothership in Munich. Yeah. And, and then Chris and I were like, Hey, we're gonna go drink beer. Hey, let's see, thats while we're there. See, thats while we're there. So we look fats up, he's showing us around and he is like, Hey, I, I got this, you know, group of coworkers, bunch of girls. They got a table at this tent, let's go check it out. And so we go to the tent and I meet my wife and, uh, the rest is history. So was it love at first sight? Like it, was it just like that? A hundred percent. It was. I I used to be on both of your parts. No, that's a, that's a long, that's a whole nother podcast. Part of why I had to move to Germany and let my business get destroyed was to prove no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, I, um, I did make a very hasty decision to go chase after her because I, I was convinced that it was, this was the one. So, um, I, I met her, uh, changed around my travel plans in Germany and I spent a, um, four or five days with her. And then I came home to Minnesota. And I sold all my shit and moved to Germany. No shit. Yeah, just like that. Yeah. So, um, and she was like, why did you come here? Pretty much? Um, I can assume it was a little Yeah, there's, it wasn't far off though. She was like, I thought we were gonna like, you know, date for a while, right. Like, yeah. Long distance relationship. Something, something. Yeah. No, that is wild. Yeah. That sounds like a very, like, prudent in the long run, but impulsive kind of a maneuver. You've been kind of living a measured life for most of it up until this point, it seems like, or at least it feels like maybe, yeah. I mean, for the most part, although you do say, you know, why don't I just run a marathon? I've never, nobody's ever really talked about a marathon in my presence before, but I saw one on TV once, so. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, no, I think there's, uh, there's something that I got in my head, you know, I, I don't know when, or, you know, I can't put my finger on it, but it was like, you know, if, if you. Wanna do something and go after it. I mean, we don't, we've only got one life. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I'm not getting any younger and, you know, these opportunities don't come around all the time and so, you know, got an idea to start a business, let's go. Yeah. You know, got, got a opportunity to meet the girl. Your dreams, you know, I gotta go to Germany. Cool. Let's go. Well, one thing that, whether it's your future wife or even a, a member for a B2B group that's somewhat exclusive, like people like to be pursued. Yeah, that's true. You know, men and women. Yep. Yeah. Alike. Uh, and so I suspect that since you did end up winning, I suspect that you were able to, uh, weather her defenses, uh, and and create some sparks there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, uh, it was pretty funny. So, yeah, I mean, sometime over beers, we'll, we'll go through the whole story. Fair enough. What was it, uh, about her that just made you ready to change your whole life? I don't know, other than that, just that drive, this is the girl for me. Yeah. It was weird. Like I, you know, I, I think I kind of thought that was munch bs, you know, when you meet somebody and it's just like, oh my gosh, that's the person. Um, yeah, I really thought that that was nonsense. And then I met her and I was like, oh, that's, uh, that's my person. That's a, that's a real thing. Like interesting. Yeah. Um, and so can't really pinpoint it, it's just No, it's just a thing. It was just a thing. Yeah. And I, uh, I remember because I, I started, I, I pulled Fats Aside immediately and I was like, Hey man, are you like trying to, you know, you don't have dibs or anything, right? And he was like, no, no, no, no. Totally good. Um, and then we started, um, I, I, I knew it was a significant moment, so I, I actually opened up a note on my phone and I, anything that she said, I put in my phone and I was like talking to, you know, family stuff and her birthday and you know, like the little questions that you kind of ask. And, and, and then before we spoke again, I memorized all of those things. Yeah. Um, it was weird. And it, the other crazy thing is I remember that day. Um, crystal clear and Hmm. Although some people may argue with me about that because what I'm about to say, you were octoberfest. I had, I had 10 liters of beer and, um, so, but that, you know, I, I remember, I remember the day. Yeah. So, yeah, I like it. You guys have had littles in the meantime too, is that right? You have Children's? Yeah. Um, so we have, uh, a son Teco. Okay. And he is, uh, just over a year and a half. Um, nice. Yeah. So it's like, it's at that point where, you know, he's just turning into Teco. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh, he's hilarious. Um, full of energy, just And um, what's your one word description for teko? Energetic. Just energetic. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. And, and if I had to, you know, Elaborate. Elaborate. I, but, um, like, I would say even more like enthusiastic. Hmm. Just like everything he has a zest for. Yeah. Um, that'll, that'll serve him well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's been super fun and, uh, you know, we're older parents now, right, right. And right. Um, so it's am you may or may not have another one with her. Oh, she's pregnant right now. My wife's pregnant, so. Congratulations. Thank you. Um, yeah. So we've got, uh, we've got second one on the way. And, uh, I mean, you guys like met a long time ago though, so did you decide late to pursue, or, or was struggling for a while to get pregnant? Or both? Both, yep. Both. So we, um, we took a minute to, you know, before we actually decided that we wanted to do it. Yeah. And, um, you know, it just like we had just met and we were in our early, early thirties when we met. Right. And just trying to like, get our stuff figured out, you know? Yeah. And life and moving and Yeah. All this stuff. And then one day you're like, You know, we're, we're 39 and 38 or whatever. Yeah. Right. You're like, if we're gonna do this thing Yeah. Time to go. Yeah. So, yeah, that's pretty much how it happened. They're like, we went, didn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. My wife and I don't have kids. We miscarried once. Mm-hmm. And you know, at some point kind of decided that we weren't gonna work extra on it and have hosted a lot of exchange students. Yeah. So, by the way of which I would recommend that for especially older parents like you guys. Yeah. Like get an exchange student to watch those littles once they get to be 4 56. Cuz they love it. Yeah. They, and they can't, they can't get paid anything. They're not a citizen. So you can just be like, right. Hey, we're going on it for date night. Watch the kids. Yeah. See you. Yeah. And clean the house. That's actually not a bad idea. We, we, we, we actually have an, it's probably something illegal about what I just said, but maybe whatever. We, we have an o pair right now. Oh you do? Yeah. Oh. And she's from Italy and it's, yeah. Perfect. Amazing. So, we'll, we'll definitely do that. But I like, I like Oy even better cuz then they don't have school. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but yeah. Anyway, I digress. It's been cool. I love the international experience and it sounds like you do too. It's been a part of your life. Yeah. Um, what is, like, what's your. Travel you because you grew up poor, right? Like your dad was a postman and stuff and whatever. Like you were probably Minnesota bound for your first 20 something years. Yep. And then as a still a single guy, you found yourself making six figure income. You're like, I can do stuff. Yeah. And go see cool places. Yeah. My first big trip was I actually earned with Cutco. Mm-hmm. Um, and we did a Spain trip for eight days and it was first class the whole way. Yeah. And I was an idiot cuz I was 20 and I didn't appreciate any of it. Right. Um, and so I, I think I, I remember all the things that we had to eat and all the wine and it was just like, Unbelievable. And I didn't appreciate any of it. Yeah. Cuz I didn't, I didn't know for you it was the same as going to Minneapolis for the weekend or something. Almost. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually, it was even worse because, you know, at least in Minneapolis I could have got a cheeseburger and like a beer, you know, like I was drinking, you know, expensive wine and you know, having like, you know, prawns and I'm like, what the hell is a prawn and why are their eyes still on it, you know, like, right. Um, I didn't, I didn't appreciate that. You didn't appreciate that Coco was dropping 200 bucks a plate. No, virtually or, you know, whatever, an X amount per hotel room in this little Spanish Boutique Inn. Yeah. I, I remember also, um, I had a hotel that had French doors that opened up onto a, a patio, um, marble, by the way, marble patio. Right. Um, that overlooked the Mediterranean Sea. And I checked into the hotel and I looked around my room and I opened the door and I looked out and I was like, Hey, there's the ocean. And then I shut the door and I never opened it again. I pulled the shades because I was going out partying till like eight in the morning, and then I'd sleep from like eight in the morning till, till it was time start going partying. Yeah. And I just, no, no situational awareness at all. Like, so yeah, what are you gonna do? Yeah. The next one was better. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, but yeah, I've been fortunate. We've traveled a lot. I, I think I've been to 25 countries and my wife's been in the same and Wow. Um, you know, a couple of them together. And, um, that's, that's a priority for us is, you know, traveling and seeing new stuff and Yeah. I dig it. Yeah. So, um, How is your, is your folks still around and family still in Minnesota and stuff like that? Yeah, I've got a big family. They're spread out all over. Um, but my, my dad is around, my mom passed away, um, the year that we moved here. Oh, wow. Um, so that was was young. Yeah, it was. Yeah. She was 60 and it was uh, you know, a pretty sudden thing, so That's right. Um, yeah, it was, you know, bummer. But things happen. Things happen and Yeah. You know, move on. But, um, yeah, no, it's, uh, I love my family and it's been a, a blessing and, you know, everybody gets along really well and, um, one of the, one of the benefits, um, or you know, I guess, you know, silver linings of, you know, losing my mom was, I became, you know, a lot closer with that side of the family. Hmm. Um, cuz they all kind of stepped in to help out and Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, it's been cool. So, um, I've got, uh, I've got a really good support network in that regard and just, you know, the. They're really cool. Yeah. I like, I like having my family. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a couple oddballs, but, you know, well, that's life. Yeah. Yeah. Um, do you wanna talk about politics or faith next? Uh, let's go to politics. Some people do'em both at the same time. Politics. Yeah. Sure. So, let's see. Where are we at in the world? We've had, you know, we're, are we in World War iii? We could talk macro first and then we can zoom down. I don't think so. But you don't think so? I, as a little settle down, yeah. Just be another proxy Syria thing or something like that. Yeah. I, you know, I have to be honest, I, I pay so little attention, really. I, I know that's probably bad. Mm-hmm. But I don't know if it is, it might be good. Um, you know, I don't want to be ignorant or, you know, ostrich bury my head in the sand and, you know, whatever. But at the same time, I feel like, um, you know, We're in such a weird time and I, I really feel helpless to do anything about it and the things I can't control. Yeah. Why do I need to spend any brain space thinking about'em? And I, I really feel like I need to focus on building my business and, you know, taking care of my family and supporting the people that are in my organization and the people that are in my network, and the people that I'm friends and, you know, my family. Like Yeah. Being a positive influence on them and, and, um, you know, really focusing on what I can control. Yeah. And then, and, and getting rich because at some point, you know, maybe the shit hits the fan and I want to like, uh, I'm gonna need enough resources not to have to eat bugs. Yeah, exactly. So, um, you know, and is that the right move? I don't know. I just, I just want to be like prepared. Yeah. For. Whatever. And I, I'm not, you know, I'm not able to focus on building my business Right. If I'm focused on, you know, whatever else is going on in the world, so. Right, right. Well, and if you're, if you're like most business people, it's not like you've tucked a bunch of money away from retirement along the way and stuff like that. You're like, the thing I'm building is my Yeah. Plan. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's a significant part of it, you know, like I, um, but yeah, I don't know, man. I, I, uh, I've got opinions about, you know, a few things, but other than that, like, I just, would you like to share those? Well, I'm very libertarian, like, you know, I just, I don't just leave me alone. I wanna be left alone. I'll leave you alone. Yeah. Let's do our thing. And you know, I and I, I love. I love people and I love having debates about stuff, intelligent debates. Mm-hmm. Like if you've got a reason for believing something Yeah. And you wanna share that with me? Awesome. Um, and if you can back it up with, you know, facts, even if I don't agree with them or, you know, you know, whatever, like, that's fine. We can have a a Yeah. Good conversation. The dialogical model of learning Yeah. Is important. Yeah. Even when I'm wrong. Yep. And, and, and if I'm wrong, I want to know that I'm wrong. You know, like I'm, I'm very interested in the truth, you know, like I'm not interested in, in thinking that I'm Right. Um, I'm interested in what's actually right. Um, you know. Yeah. That's fair. So, yeah. I don't know what, uh, what do you, th one of the hardest challenges facing a thinking person is the climate situation, you know? Sure. I'm a, I'm a pretty small climate footprint guy. Yeah. And I'm an energy freedom guy. Yeah. I think you have to, you know, there's, there's oil and coal and resources in the ground that people will die for trying to dig out of it unless they're, you know, killed trying to do. Right. Like, it's, it, I, yeah. Anyway. What, where do you, where do you lie on that? Like it's such a, like the, the beautiful thing, the best potential outcome would be that the combination of solar and wind and nuclear and battery storage mm-hmm. To have a level and available and non brown, audible energy supply would find itself to be cheaper than most energy created by petro carbo releasing atoms. Yeah, right. I, um, There are a few words there that you said that I didn't understand. Um, but, but, uh, I really think that that's, that would be amazing, you know, if we can, you know, build a system that actually, you know, could outcompete oil, could outcompete oil. Um, I don't think it's anywhere on the horizon a hundred years away. Nuclear is probably, uh, we really need to give that a fair shake. Yeah. Um, you know, I mean, they haven't built a new nuclear facility in since the seventies. It's asinine. Yeah. Um, you know, this whole fuel cell thing is very interesting, but I mean, how far away are we from that? Um, but yeah, they're, well, and batteries are terrible. Like, they just don't really, like, car batteries are fine, you know, if you're gonna use something every day regularly. But like storing large volume power in batteries, it just doesn't work. And it would be like such a fragile storage of energy in case of. Actual war. Yeah. Oh, we just put the US out of business. We bombed there. Four mega battery centers. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, but there's, I, I'm distributed microgrids. Talk to me about distributed microgrids. That seems like I was thinking, uh, you know, and this is completely, I don't know anything about what I'm talking about. So like, you know, I'm sure you'll get much, sometimes, sometimes fresh eyes is better. Um, but I think that if everybody, um, would take a little bit more, uh, responsibility of their own stuff and say like, Hey, you know, maybe I should, uh, you know, grow my own food. Yeah. Maybe I should turn my front yard into a garden and maybe I should, you know, get solar panels. Um, you know, even though, I mean, that's not, it's not super ideal. And I, I mean, I've run the math on it for my house. Like it's, eh, yeah. Yeah. I'm not like super pumped about it. It's not like the, you know, the most amazing thing ever. But, um, if I could be a little less reliant on, you know, a big company, right. If the big grid got blown up in some kind of a nuclear attack and you could have the power that your house generates. Yeah, I would take that totally. Yeah. You know, so for that reason, yeah, absolutely. But I mean, I, I have a garden in my house, you know, in the backyard and I hunt and, you know, I like to be self-reliant. I want to know that if shit hits the fan, we'll be okay. Yeah. And I, I think if more people kind of took that. Approach, and I'm sure there's gonna be a bunch of people that argue and like, whoa, everybody's not capable of doing that. Uh, kind of you are like, yeah, well, but even with a really good garden, like 20% maybe of your vegetables for the year. Well, but if you can and stuff, you could probably get up to half. You can can, and there's, you know, all sorts of like, fermentation that you can, I mean, totally. Like, I, I'm not saying it's like the answer, but you can just take pressure off it, take pressure off it, be responsible for your own self fully Yeah. As best you can. Yep. Um, so yeah, and, and I think in the same respect, you know, energy, like, you know, I'm looking at building a house in the mountains and you know, it's going to, I want it to be off grid, you know, geothermal, solar, wind, you know, any, anything that we can do to like, not be, you know, reliant on somebody else because you think it's going to. I, I don't know. I mean, I'm not, I don't want to be all doomsday about it, but it just for my, yeah. My own personal, you know, peace of mind. Yeah. Just nice, you know, like I, I, I know it's probably not the most financially savvy thing to do, but I don't want to have a mortgage, you know, like money, mortgage money is cheap. Right. And esp it was, well, I mean, still in the historical averages, it's still cheap, but Correct. Nobody wants to, you know, acknowledge that. Acknowledge that. Cause yeah. I mean, that house that my, my dad bought the fir, you know, he bought a house in 86, 87 I think is, oh, it was probably 12% or something. Yeah. 12, 12, 13% or something like that. Yeah. I mean, that's crazy. Um, but, uh, and it was the start of, if he hadn't have bought that house, it would've been less good for him. Probably. Yeah. Right. Yep. So, yeah, I don't know. I, I just, there's a lot of things that I want to do for my personal peace of mind that maybe in the grand scheme of things, you know, wouldn't, you know, like you can leverage yourself up and, you know, borrow money against your house and today's debt is tomorrow's equity, blah, blah, blah. But I, you know, I just don't like to be beholden anybody. You wanna be independent in all the ways that that means. Yeah. Okay. Yep. All right. Um, and I guess that's your politics in general. Like, like, because of that, you've got to be at least a little bit skeptical of things like w h o treaties and, uh, what's the World Economic Forum kind of elements and disarmament things? Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it all makes me a little, you know, a little uncomfortable, but, um, on the, uh, so I like to say that they're, because Democrats are both. Authoritarian and libertarian right now in, in today's world especially, they're like, we can do anything. We can. I'm a man, I can be a woman, or whatever, all these different things. And you cannot misbehave otherwise, you're going to, you're a terrible person and you're gonna go to whatever their version of hell is, right? Yeah. And republicans are both authoritarians and libertarians in terms of like behavior and things like that. And then, so, so that's what I like to say is that the really, the spectrum is authoritarian and libertarian. Which, which end of that spectrum are you on? Uh, everybody should do their own thing or there should be a big bus. No, I really, I really like everybody do their own thing. Like, and I, I know there's, again, you know, uh, there's reasons some people think otherwise. Yep. And, and I'm, I understand some of those arguments. Would the power of forces just aggregate and like chew up all those libertarians eventually. Like, that's the big problem, right? Like libertarians can't raise any money because nobody wants to pay for a government that they want to not exist, right? Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, it, it is a little bit of a conundrum and they're, uh, you know, there's a lot of power hungry people that, you know, enjoy that, uh, you know, authoritarian Right. Stuff, you know. Um, so there's no easy answer and a lot of police officers, right? Like there's really awesome police officers that feel like they've been blessed and they need to protect those that are weaker and yeah, it's a service hearted kind of thing. And there's a lot of hungry power, hungry, like little man syndrome, police officers that the first thing they want to do is have you lip off. Yeah. Yeah. So they can put you in your place. Yep. I, uh, Yeah, that one, that one's you've experienced both? I've experienced both. And I have a brother, uh, stepbrother that's a cop. And, uh, is he, which of is he? He's very, he's very cool. Okay, good. He's very cool. He just wants to help people. Good. Um, and he's super smart and, and he's super annoyed when there's all these other cops that are like little freaking Napoleon. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, he does not appreciate that. So, um, but they're there in every force. Yeah. Um, I've beaten you up enough over politics. How about, um, faith? Yeah. You have a faith background. You said you went to Christian school Yeah. Back in May at least. Um, re Yeah, my, uh, excuse me, sorry. My upbringing, um, very, very Christian. Um, my mom was Catholic or, you know, went to K through 12 Catholic school. Um, and then my dad is, uh, you know, evangelical Christian. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and they, uh, They raised us Evangelical Christian until they got divorced. And then my mom, when we moved to a, uh, a small town, um, there wasn't, you know, there wasn't such thing as a private school option. Right. And, but the public school was way better public school in some ways. I loved public school. Um, and then we, you know, there wasn't a evangelical church, so we switched to a Lutheran church. Mm-hmm. So, anyway, it's like halfway between anyway, kind of. Yeah. It's like Protestant and Catholic still quite a bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, anyway, it was, you know, so religious upbringing. Um, and then I kind of went rogue, um, after college, during college kind of thing. During Cutco. Yeah. Yeah, around around my, after I got outta high school and when I moved outta my mom's house, I was kind of done with the, the whole thing. Yeah. Um, and I did go back to, I, I went back to college later in life. Um, I got my degree. Oh. Um, and, uh, I kind of skipped over that part. Yeah. That's cool. Um, yeah. So I went back when I was 27, graduated when I was 30, and I went to a Lutheran college. Oh. Um, and then I did a very short consulting gig. For a hot second at, uh, Thrivent Financial for Lutherans. Oh, really? Yeah, I was a thriving rep for a little while. Oh really? Yeah. After I put my food trailer down, but before I could go full-time local Think tank. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Uh, and they're now, they became Thrivent for Christians and now they're kind of thriving for everybody. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Cuz just aren't enough Lutherans anymore. Right. You can't have a life insurance company that isn't creating new Yeah. Members. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Well, it sounds like you, you don't like have an ax to grind with Christians necessarily? No, not at all. Uh, or even any distaste or distrust, like there's a lot of people are like, no, I'm not a Christian. And like, those people are terrible. Yeah. No. Or. Never heard of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're kind of somewhere in between though. You, like, you got a fair bit of awareness, so Yeah. Like what do you do with Jesus? I, you know, I, I believe he was a real person and I, I think, uh, the, the stories are very educational and, you know, there's a lot of like, good, uh, principles that you can glean from all of that are useful. Yeah. It's very useful. Yeah. Um, I don't really buy into the whole, uh, you know, son of God thing died, came up three days later kind of thing. We're almost to Easter. It's like in two weeks from today. Yeah. So will you do anything for Easter? Uh, you know, Easter we make a ham. Um, and it, it's tough. It's, it's right, especially tough. It's a complicated kind of the transition from faithful to secular. Across the nations over time. Mm-hmm. Is weird. It's interesting. Yeah. Well, and, and, and being, uh, brought up in such a, a faith-based family and, you know, and now raising children. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it's, uh, it's an interesting thing to navigate and, you know, like how do you, how do you explain certain holidays and, you know, what do you celebrate? Why are we celebrating it? You know, what's the meaning behind it? Yeah. And, and, you know, navigating the, it's October Fest the same as Easter, right? Yeah. Where's Jerry coming, uh, from perspective? Um, so she was raised Catholic. Okay. And, you know, we're kind of in the same boat now. Yeah. So it's, uh, yeah. It, it's, it's interesting. And I, I get, if you couldn't sense, uh, uncomfortable about it. Yeah. Because, um, I, I think that everybody. I like, I like the principles. I like what it does for people. I like the community aspect of it. I like the, um, having something to bigger than me and blah. Bigger than me and guide yourself and you know, blah, blah, blah. Um, but that's where it stops for me. Yeah. And, um, and the organizations have messed it up. Yeah. I mean, obviously like, I mean, not to pick on the Catholics, but Yeah. Like there's a big whole unreconciled scandal thing there. Yeah. And then with lots of bad actions by abusers. And they're overseers. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, when you've got family that are so entrenched in that Yeah. Um, it doesn't make for fun conversations. So yeah. I, you know, I usually just bite my own tongue, try to avoid that topic, let people believe what they want. Well, and like, how does. Teco, like get, appreciate those real standards of, of ethics and morays and yeah. Things like that. Like back in the days of the Greeks, before anybody really heard of Christians and stuff, they were chewed on this and everybody's chewed on it forever. And right now, in the absence of Christiandom, it's gonna like, do you want Christiandom or anything goes? I, I don't see a little bit. You don't think it's there? I think we're running on the fumes, on the value side. Like once God is dead, then it's kind of like, I don't, maybe I'm wrong, but Yeah, I don't see it like that. No. Um, I mean there's, uh, I don't know how to articulate it. You know what, my brother's gonna listen to this and he's gonna yell at me later for not being able to articulate it. Um, he's a professor and he's gonna. He's a philosophy professor. Yeah. Um, well, you could say that reason. Is it right? Like Yeah. That's what like Sam Harris would say is that reason can get you to ethical behavior. Yeah. Uh, and altruism is fully explained by selfish motivations Yeah. Or whatever. Right. I don't buy it. Hmm. Um, personally, but yeah, I, I, I don't, I don't know that, um, you know, like you, you can be, uh, a good person and a good member of society and, and, uh, you know, have values and want other people to win and succeed and, and you can love everybody and, and that has nothing to do with. Christianity. Yeah, for sure, for sure. You know, and I rewrote the, uh, the 10 Commandments as the 10 principles for your best Good. Yeah. A while back. And it was really just kind of modernizing the language around it. You know, be nice to your mom and dad, you know? Yeah. Be respectful. Do not murder. You know, it also includes cancel culture, right? Like, if you're canceling somebody, whether it's online or in person because of what they think or believe, that's basically killing them. It's murder, you know? Yeah. If, if by looking at a sexy woman, you're committing adultery in your mind, as Jesus said, which probably would tend to agree. Like it's hard to slice it somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Well then, so too is canceling murder, I think. I don't know. Yeah, I could see that. So that's what, and I think that's probably the better. Like Jewish people that I've listened to, you know, sin is missing the target. You've heard that descriptor for it probably before. Yeah. And so like, what's the target? Do people have innate, innate sense of what the target is? Yeah. Yeah, maybe. I think so. I think most people, yeah, I would think so. I mean, um, I don't know, like when you were partying like a rockstar in Spain and didn't know any better, you were young and dumb and whatever else. Like, were you missing the target? Did you know that you missed the target? Were you like, I partied until 8:00 AM every night? It was awesome. Yeah. That's, uh, you know, um, yeah. That's fair. I mean, I think my motivations were, you know, different. So I was hitting the target that I, that you said for yourself? Except for myself. Well, I think that's the, like what should be the target? I think that's maybe the discussion that's missing. Yeah. A little bit in society. It, it doesn't have to be like, Where are you at in the Believe in Jesus model? Yeah. It's more like, where are you at in terms of setting a target for yourself and attaining the target. Right. Because that's, you talked a lot about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess that would be my challenge to you from a faith perspective, whatever direction you go, is to like intentionally set targets for TCO and this little one that hasn't even been born yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That's, uh, that's an interesting conversation in, in and of itself is just like, you know, what is the target? Yeah. You know, and from a individual perspective, family, you know, business country. Well, and I think that's why I use faith. I'm not asking to talk about Christianity. Yeah. I'm kind of more about what is it the thing that you're setting your faith upon? Yeah. What are you, what are you pointing yourself toward? Yeah. And why Yeah. Without knowing if you're gonna make it there or not. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or even giving yourself grace if you don't. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Fun conversation. Cool. Um, the local experience. Yeah. Your craziest experience, um, of your lifetime that you share? Uh, so I gotta come up with a different one because I told you about moving to Germany to chase after a girl. Right. And your business shrunk from 30 to three chapters, whatever else. Um, yeah, that's, uh, if you wanna put more color around that one, you can, or if there's a, a near death thing or something, you're welcome to expand. Um, no, I, you know, I, I think that's one of the fun things about, um, traveling is, uh, you know, you get into some situations where you're like, Ooh, this is a little, you know, I dunno how this is gonna work out. Little sketch. Yeah. Um, but, uh, no, I think, um, I think that that the story about Meet my Wife is probably the, the craziest thing I've ever done. And, um, It obviously turned out really well, but, um, you don't have any regrets? I think that's really cool. No, I mean, like, you could have carried a seat of bitterness around that and it would've corrupted your relationship right from the start. Yeah, totally. Um, I think the, the coolest thing about it was, you know, and I look back on, you know, why did it work and how did it work and all that. And, you know, we, being, the circumstances that we met under, um, really allowed us to kind of say and do whatever we wanted. Mm-hmm. You know, like there was no, yeah, I wasn't trying to posture and like, you know, have that first eight, first eight conversation where you're like, oh, this, you know, like the, the sanitized version of, you know, Negro. Right. Um, You know, our first date, you know, official date was, um, in Prague. And I, I drove her to Prague and we had, which from Munich is like a six hour drive. And so we had all this time in the car and you know, we just talked and, you know, I thought, what do I have to lose? You know, I'm never gonna see this girl again, right? I'm gonna go back to Minnesota and if it sucks then, you know, and she doesn't like me for who I am, then so be it. You know? And, and if she does, then whatever. Um, so I just was like, you know, super honest and yeah. And so was she. And then, you know, you kind of get all your dirty laundry out there and you're like, huh. Oh, it wasn't so bad. Yeah. Um, and I think it really worked out well. And so, um, it was, it was pretty cool. But it, yeah. So just a little bit more on the, um, the, the first time. We met was at the October 5th tent. And then I tried to take her on a date the next day and she shot me down and didn't return my calls. And then finally I got ahold of her and she said, um, okay, I'll go on a date with you. And I wanted to meet her at Haass Ice Cream. And she, um, she agreed and then she turned it into a group date. So when we showed up, it was like a bunch of people, right. And I was like, oh God, that's lame. Yeah. Um, and then I, you know, so I was at the end of that. I was like, listen, I still really want to take you on a date, but I'm leaving. I'm going, cuz I had to be in Berlin a couple days later. Um, I was like, I'm getting a car. I'm gonna drive to Prague De Maur go with me. And so she called in sick for work. Oh, cool. And, you know, drove with me to Prague. Um, but, uh, yeah, it was, it was nuts, man. That's that far and away, that's the, that's the craziest thing. Did you. Like, did you beat yourself up for a long time? Did you, did you give yourself forgiveness right away about the kind of the hiring of the wrong person to keep your business alive and going? Or were you like, Hey, I got the girls. So it was worth, I mean, you had 30 groups that was I did probably a whatever,$200,000 a year business or something like that up there. Yeah. Yeah. We, um, I, I did beat myself up about it, um, but I can't remember how long, but I think it was, it's probably longer than I should have, but looking back on it, I'm like, that's, it was just a really good lesson, you know, about hiring people and, and entrusting your gut. Um, you know, I think back to that book, um, Malcolm Gladwell, um, blink. Yeah. And it's like you, you know, immediately. Whether you're making the right decision or not. Yeah. And you just, you know, you have to listen to yourself, whether it be a business decision or you know, this person that you're gonna go on a date with or, you know, even taking tests. Taking tests. Yeah. A lot of times it's like, oh, they're a, was the right answer and like, I second guessed myself and changed it to C. Right. Yeah. It, you, you know, and, um, there's a lot to be said about that and, and you just need to trust yourself and, uh, and it's hard, you know, especially when, um, you don't have a track record necessarily. Right, right. So, but you know, I'm 42 now, so I got, I got a bit of a track record and I'm like, I am 99% right on my gut. Right. So if it says something, I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Well, um, I guess. How do people find my firestorm? Uh, how do they connect with you if they are a business to business prospect? That should be in a group. Yeah, yeah. Um, all that, all that stuff. So I am, uh, on LinkedIn all over the place. Um, Phillip Pelto, just one L in Phillip, and, and then the business is my firestorm. So it's uh, you know, LinkedIn is my firestorm. Instagram, you know, just go to LinkedIn. Yeah. That's, you know, business people go to LinkedIn, like is there a firestorm.com out there? There's my firestorm.com. There isn't an actual fire. I mean, there is, there is. Somebody else owned that real estate, I guess or something. Yeah. So just really quick back, um, we filed the LLC paperwork, um, for my firestorm in May of 2019, or sorry, sorry, 2009. Okay. May of 2009. Yep. And I went to buy firestorm.com. Because at that time it was somebody squatted on it. Well, they hadn't squatted on it. It's another business and it's still Oh, very successful business. It's a, um, like a disaster mitigation company. Mm-hmm. Or something based in Atlanta. Mm-hmm. And they're like a franchise. And I, I have a timer set or a calendar reminder every year to check and see if they're, in case they didn't renew their GoDaddy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So one of these days I'll get firestorm.com, but, uh, you know, they, and so close the thing that they, they filed like, like two months before I did. That's hilarious. I'm like, oh, it's so close. Anyway, it's cool. Yeah. I mean, uh, everybody can find you if they want to. Yeah, totally. So yeah. Get it. Um, well thanks. It's been a fun conversation. We're, we're only like a 40 minute zoom call acquainted before this, but it's funny how many, uh, relevancies we ran across. Yeah. And a similar journey. So this was great. Thanks for having me. Thanks Phil. Thanks for being here.