EXPERIENCE 113 | Sean Godbey - Founder and Owner of Old Town Spice Shop - Adapting Your Business Model for Changing Times

Sean Godby founded Old Town Spice Shop in Fort Collins, Colorado with its brother and parents in 2010 with an original plan to expand to five retail locations within just a few years. They found some retail success, but the overhead and staffing complexities of retail soon shifted the plan into a more wholesale focused operation, supplying bulk and custom spices for restaurants, food manufacturers, breweries, and more. As a lockdown response to Covid, destroyed demand for their retail and wholesale purchasers. Online sales blew up. People were cooking at home and Old Town Spice Shop was there to make sure the flavors were top shelf. Sean has a great entrepreneur journey, local boy who worked his way through college and worked for over six years in ministry with Vineyard Church before founding Old Town Spice. He has a matter of fact way about him and shares freely of the trials, pivots and spicy moments of Old Town spice up. Welcome back to the Local Experience Podcast. My guest today is Sean Godby, and Sean is the founder, owner operator of Old Town Spice Shop here in Fort Collins. And, uh, Sean is, uh, a longtime contact. He made the spice shake that we used for my food trailer back in the day, as well as some of our other spices and ingredients. So, uh, we've had long connection, but I don't really know that much about his journey, so I'm excited to get into it today. Good, Sean, um, why don't we start by just describing what is Old Town Spice Shop? What does it do? Who does it, what does it carry? Who does it sell to? Who are your customers? Yeah, so Old Town Spice Shop was founded in 2010. Wow. Um, and we started originally with the idea of multiple shops, um, multiple retail outlets, and, um, ended up not. Doing that? Yeah. Um, for, for lots of reasons that we can get into. Sure. Um, but currently we do, uh, retail, uh, brick and mortar. Um, we do e-commerce sales, and then we have a wholesale division that's growing rapidly. Gotcha, gotcha. So really kind of across the board all your spice needs. That's right. Cool. And is it just spices, any sauces, things like that? Um, we did sauces for a little while and decided that we needed to focus on what we're good at. Yeah. Best at. Yeah. Um, and so we. You know, ax to the sauces. Um, and then we are working with a friend of ours who is bringing sauces out. Okay. And so we will have a sauce option, and he said he would make some of my recipes and stuff as well. Okay. Um, and then we also have a line of coffee that we, we Oh. Do that. It's, uh, called Hopped Up Coffee. Okay. Um, and it's essentially the opposite of what every brewery does with coffee, where they do a coffee, beer. Yeah. This is beer. Coffee. That's interesting. Yeah. Did you know a lot about spices before you started this shop? Uh, or what, no. What was it that, what was the impetus to start a Spice Shep? Yeah. So the, the founding story, um, my, my brother is, uh, it was his idea. Okay. Um, he was, oh, and I know him. Aaron, right? Aaron? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's my friend of my brother-in-law's. Oh, okay. My wife's sister. I, I ran into him while years and years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it was his idea. Um, him and his wife were living up in Montana, went to a spice shop there and thought this would be perfect for Fort Collins. Um, they were looking to move back to Fort Collins at the time. Mm. And they pitched our parents, um, who were looking to invest in a business at the time. Mm-hmm. Yep. And, uh, like, Hey, me and Sean can run it together. Yeah. Well, so he had, hi, his business was going to be separate. Um, and so he was building his own thing and they wanted me to, um, operate it and own it and, um, and grow it. Cuz that's sort of been something that I can do is, is grow something. And, um, and so that, you know, his idea, we had the idea of doing five stores in five years. Oh, wow. Um, and we weren't able to pull that off, um, because the funding wasn't there. Um, uh, during our first year, our parents got divorced. Mm-hmm. And you know, when, when that happened, they were your main investors. Yeah. And the main, you know, people potentially willing to sign a note or something even if you needed to. Exactly. And now they're like, well, I'm not signing a note. You gonna sign a note? No, no. Nobody wanted to put. You know, money in unless the other person put in the same amount of money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So here we are. Here we are. So, um, you know, let's, uh, talk about your customers a little bit. I know your, your location downtown is in kind of one of the sweet spots as far as retail walking traffic and stuff like that. It's a busy hopping place when I go in there. Yep. Um, is that, like, is it mostly like tourists and stuff? Is it locals that come back week after week or month after month for the same kinds of spices? Is it people looking for new and interesting spices all the time? Both, all those things? Both. And, uh, yeah. Yeah. So we have, um, we have, have. 20 to 40 year old females Okay. Um, coming in to, you know, shop for supper or you know, look for something that they can do to chicken or to vegetables to hide the flavor or whate whatever, um, for their families. Yeah. We have tourists coming in from all over the world looking for, you know, something from Fort Collins that says Fort Collins, Colorado on it, that they can take home, give to their friends, give to their aunts. Yep. Anything like that. Yeah. Um, and then we have, uh, brewers and, and home brewers and distillers Okay. That are looking for, and that's still on the retail side generally cuz they're not high volume kind of thing. Yep, yep. So they're just looking for one ounce of coriander and orange peel. Mm-hmm. Some grains of paradise to be able to make a wit Yeah. Width or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes sense. I'm looking for advice on how to utilize. Those spices and making their beers, that kind of thing. And then you mentioned the e-commerce. Is that relatively new or have, have I been able to order spices for an old town spice shop for a long time online? Yeah. We have, uh, we started with just retail and within a year had an e-commerce site. Oh, is that right? Okay. Um, just, just knowing that that's the direction that it was going and that, you know, small business, you have to have multi-channels to be able to grow and, and maintain business. And so do you fulfill all of that e-commerce element, like people order. This or that, and you're like putting it in little boxes and shipping it to Baltimore, Maryland or Boston, Texas or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So we have our retail business, um, and that, that is just retail. And then we have a production facility, um, down on the, on the southern part of, of Fort Collins. Mm-hmm. That has, uh, we do all the e-commerce fulfillment of orders, um, out. And so each day we print all the orders, pack'em up, make sure they're fresh, get'em out the door and, and, and going, well, I'm imagining that the, the business model generally is that, you know, buy spices in really big packages and break it down into quite small packages and there's margin in that, and that's kind of, Kind of the biggest element of the, of the value at Right? Is both the knowledge and the repackaging into consumable sizes. Um, yes or yes. That, that is a big part of it. Um, you know, we, we buy direct from importers. Okay. Um, and so that was part of the reason we wanted five stores mm-hmm. Is because we knew the volume we needed to be able to purchase appropriately Yeah. For importers to pay any attention to you. That's right. And so, um, over the years we have grown in the wholesale to be able to make up for the volume that we're missing for, right. For stores. So that's really the modification that you've done is to grow your wholesale business to be able to buy in the kind of volume that you can still get some purchasing discounts from those direct importers and stuff. Yep. And then, um, we do direct processing and so there's, there's a lot of things that we bring in and we just put in a jar, put in a bag, that kind of thing. Yeah. But we also, uh, fresh grind. Uh, a lot of things that, that there's that value add. Mm-hmm. Um, and then we also do, um, all of our seasonings are in-house blends. Oh. So that we mix, you're taking five different ingredients or a dozen different ingredients and put a little of this Exactly. Little bit of that and try to mix it the same every time. Yep. Take notes. Yep. Yep. And then the wholesale, is it kind of again, like those, those restaurants and brewers and things like that, that are consistently, you know, for their favorite masala recipe or whatever they're, they're buying their Yeah. Store from you. So wholesale, we go lots of different directions. Okay. Um, we have, you know, restaurants that we work with, um, you know, companies like Music City Hot Chicken, or, um, hot Corner Concepts, which, you know, includes a whole host of, of different restaurants or Silver Grill or anything like that. We also do, uh, um, Co-packing. So other people that are, have a spice blend that they're wanting to sell, um, whether it's through Whole Foods or King Soupers or Safeway mm-hmm. Or, um, just at farmer's markets or anything like that. But they don't have the buying power or they don't like the processing end of it. Yeah. And they just like the sales end of it. Right. And that's something that we will take on. We make their product, package it for'em, sell it to them, and then they, they go off and sell it more. Yeah. Or in my case, give it away. Yeah. Or give it away. So we have the, uh, no mistakes, everything shake here that we give to people that make us referrals or things like that. And I have to say, it's one of my best swag items ever. Like Yeah. Great. People are really, you know, they're sad when it runs out. Yeah. Uh, which means that we've done our job kind of. Yeah. Um, and then the other other thing that we do is we have a distributor that, um, we are selling to other small. Um, stores throughout the US Oh, really? Sell our products. Hmm. Um, and then like your seasoning products and things like that. Okay. Yeah. So, um, and the distributor only sells so cases of jars and so it's, you know, a man paw retail outlet Right. Or an olive oil store looking to sell spices. They go on purchase, we ship it out. Yep. They put it on their shelves and, and sell our products. Um, and then we also produce for numerous spice shops throughout the us. Wow. So it's grown to be quite a, a hub, kind of like you have tentacles reaching into lots of different places. It seems like a. Brain damage to try to keep track of all of that. Yeah. Like in terms of cost analysis, do you have like a really robust point of sale system that tracks inventory and things like that and whatever? No, unfortunately, so our, our our point of sale, um, for retail-wise, you know, does a, does a good job for what it does. Yeah. Um, but on the production end, it's more of a, a program that will keep track of lot numbers, keep track of quantities, batches, materials. You know, all that kind of thing. And so it is a big undertaking and um, that is kind of individually billed or an invoiced from there and whatever. Yep. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well that sounds like, uh, one of the bottlenecks potentially, right? Like is to Yeah. Get that flowing. Good. Yep. Yep. And so that's definitely been a, a work in progress and, and ever, ever increasing, um, you know, benefits when, when we are actually utilizing it, how, how we're supposed to, yeah. Yeah. I'm sure that's, uh, you know, it's one thing to have, uh, good systems and another thing to use the good systems and making it easy enough to always want to use. Now what's your team? Um, you have a pretty small team really for executing all these different things. Yeah, so depending on the seasonality, um, just cuz winter's probably slowest, I suppose. Uh, winter is by far the busiest, oh, it's, oh, Christmas and whatnot. Yeah. So Christmas we kill it with gifts and e you know, e-commerce gifts and, um, working with, you know, corporate. Companies looking for corporate gifts, that kind of thing. Yeah. I want 400 of these packs or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So the, the skinniest we can be staffing wise is probably, um, five to six full-time employees. Okay. Um, and just generally we'll get up to 15 to 20, um, wow. Employees during the holidays. Wow. I didn't have any idea that, uh, yeah. So do you like, fill every nook and cranny of your production facility down there? Just getting stuff ready to ship out and stuff? Yeah. Or do you actually take on extra space for that push or, um, no, we, we do it, you know, we take care of it, do some back stock and that kind of thing. But, um, you know, our processes, we've grown to the point where we can produce, um, about, you know, 400 pounds of product at a time. Wow. And then it's just a matter of, you know, getting it packaged and, and labeled and, and all that kind of thing. I'm imagining kind of like, you know, for making. Dough or things like that. There's these huge, you know, cauldron style things that's got a big stir that just kind of stirs it all day long almost to make sure it's mixed. Is it kind of the same for spices or how do you get the spice Mixed. Mixed. So, so think of that, but then think of it more, um, laterally and Oh, in a bathtub that you could lay in. Yeah. So almost like a combine cylinder or whatever it's, yeah, so, so it's essentially like, it's called a ribbon blender. Okay. And it's this big trough that you have two different ribbons and they're going different directions, and it's sort of like two augers mixing, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see how that would, and then, because the spices are all different, like densities, right? Mm-hmm. And particle size and stuff like that. Is that a big challenge? I guess that blender mixes it good, but then if you ship it across the country as all the heavy. Dense stuff at the bottom of the jar. So that's, that's more on the recipe development side. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that's a consideration when we blend, when we start, uh, a project is, you know, what, what consistency do we want? What, what issues are we gonna have with salt settling or Right. Taking or anything. Yeah. Have a little coarser grind on your pepper because otherwise it's gonna move around in there too much. That's right. Or whatever that looks like. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So for people that don't know much about spices in general, like, can we do like a, a five minute tour of spice? I mean Sure. In the, in the old days, you know, the Spice Islands and the Far East and like that was a big part of commerce and trade developing is cuz some parts of the world had tasty things to put on your. Food and other places were called England. Yeah. Uh, and they didn't have that kind of stuff. Right. And so like, talk about where spices are produced. Maybe talk something about your, some of your favorite spices and regions Yeah. And, and distinctive flavors. You know what, what's funny is, is I love spices because they're ever expanding. Mm-hmm. Um, I am consistently finding a handful of new products every year that are new to me or new to the global trade of spices. Um, small farmers that are doing one thing and that's the only thing they do. And an importer buys their entire, you know, wow lot. Yeah. Brings it into the country and then says, oh, I have this new thing that you're gonna love. Right. Um, and then figuring out how to do, do something like, so, so for instance, um, black lime, it's essentially a lime that is sun. Um, Picked and then, and then laid out and sun dried. Hmm. And you get, um, a lot more of these robust, hardy flavors from the lime. But then also, is it just the lime peels then? Basically? No, it's the whole lime. Wow. But then you grind it up. Yeah. And then you grind it up into a powder and uhhuh. And so like we have a black lime sugar and a black lime salt that we made. Oh, interesting. Um, so for like, you know, margaritas, rimming, you know Sure. It's black and it's beautiful and. Um, lots of fun. What's that black impart in terms of flavor or is it just kind of the preservation nature of it? Yeah. So you get a lot of lime flavor. Yeah. Um, but you also get some, like tamarin, sourness. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and some, like a sun dried tomato doesn't really taste like a tomato. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's the same idea as you, you're just giving more depth of flavor Yeah. As a, as a interesting, as cures in the sun. Interesting. Okay. Um, yeah, but so we, we bring in products from India, from Albania, from Sri Lanka, from Vietnam, um, Australia, Canada, Egypt, Canada, Spain. Okay. I mean, you name it. And so is there, is there hot bed areas? It sounds like it's spread around quite a bit more than it was, I guess in the old days or whatever. Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, you know, there, there is, uh, numerous places that you can, you can bring in or buy. Um, things like pepper or human, um, these, these high commodity products that are, are sort of the top sellers throughout the world. Um, and so there's lots of growing countries that, that grow those. Mm-hmm. Um, but there are other places that you can't get, like juniper berries from India. Hmm. And so it's just not the right climate to be able to grow it. Right. And so then you have to go to Europe in, um, either Italy or Albania or some, somewhere like that. Gotcha. Gotcha. Um, and then there's like pink pepper corns that you have to go to South America or Nutmeg. You have to go more towards, you know, southern India or, um, Vietnam or, or Sri Lanka. There is so much, like, in a way, there's more variety in spices than there is in humans or in deer species or whatever. Like, there, there's so many different flavors, like a nutmeg. Mm-hmm. One of the things I've noticed lately is that, um, we haven't exchanged in this from Brazil. Yeah. And they don't really where she's from. She's from Sao Paulo and they don't really do hot spice there. Um, but spice spice, she really likes and, and spice spice like the all spices and the nutmegs mm-hmm. And the stuff that they make seasonal beers with in the fall. My wife hates that. And, and, but she loves spicy spice. Yeah. You know, the hot spice and there's so much kind of contrast between those two kind of major categories of. I, I don't know. When I think of, you know, when I think of beer with spices, especially whether it's all spice or nutmeg or cardimum or mm-hmm. It's got kind of that wrinklier nose kind of element. When it hits your palate as part of food, it can, um, and like, tell me what else I'm missing in that general equation. Like there's, like vanilla beans is a good example of, that's, that's more different than. Anything else? Yeah. In a lot, a lot of ways, right? Like the taste of vanilla is so distinctive from every other flavor. Yeah. And part of that is the amount of flavors that you get out of vanilla beans. Mm-hmm. A good vanilla bean should have roughly 300 different flavor profiles. Really? Yeah. Now I've not yet met somebody that can distinguish all 300 items, but that's what, you know, the flavor experts say. Yeah. How many attributes have been attributed to the vanilla sorts. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, you get lots of different, different flavor profiles from that. And so that's one of the more fun things that I get to do is work with, you know, restaurateurs, chefs, brewers, distillers who come in and they're like, I want this flavor. And they describe something and then we work with how to get there. Yeah, yeah. With, uh, with a budget in mind. Of course. Sometimes, of course. You know, and, and sometimes they're like, I want this. And it's like, you're gonna pay for that. Okay, fair enough. So, so, um, I feel like the, the Old Town Spice shop isn't, it's hard, but not complicated in some ways. Like, you got all these different things going on, but yeah, it, it has its complications, especially in the last few years. Yeah. Um, you know, supply chain wise has, you know, glass and lids and that kind of thing. Oh, right. Definitely hard to get it your hands on. Right. Um, and then you have, you know, c commodities, the commodity markets, so, You know, growing seasons, I have to know when to buy something to make sure I'm getting the best price. Mm-hmm. And you know, the, the price differences on some of these things can be, you know,$30 a pound difference depending on growing season. Wow. I mean, you're talking about, is it like 30 or 60 or? Yeah, well, I mean, sometimes, you know, sometimes, sometimes it's, you know,$4 versus, you know,$32. Oh my goodness. And you're like, my goodness. And you know, it's like I need to buy 50 pounds or, you know, 400 pounds of something. Wow. And it, it's like, Ooh, that hurts. Well, and most of this stuff is pretty durable, right? Like, I know spites kind of de degrade over time, but overall they can last at least a year for the most part. And Yeah. Several in some cases. Yeah. And that's, that's, uh, part of our purchasing power is, and why we grind products in house mm-hmm. Is because once you start processing them, that's when you sort of start that life cycle. Right. So if you've got whole peppercorns mm-hmm. Those will be. Good for three to five years. Yeah. And then you grind'em in and they smell amazing again. And it's just like the day that they were picked Exactly. Or dried or whatever. They were dried. Yeah. So let's go through the, the evolution a little bit cuz you, you mentioned that you were really intending on just being retail and then things happened and, you know, added e-commerce on soon. Do you remember was there wholesale accounts right from the beginning? Um, so there wasn't, and, and that wasn't a focus for us. Yeah. Um, what happened was, uh, we were. We were focusing on retail and e-commerce. And then I got introduced to, um, the purchasing agent at New Belgium. Oh. Um, and so there was a year talking fortuitous, uh, moment. Yeah. Yeah. And so there was a year that they did a, uh, collaborative beer with all the breweries in Fort Collins. Um, back then there was only nine breweries Right. In instead of the the 20 something that are now. Right, right. And, uh, and so they were downtown walking around, what are we gonna do with this beer? And, uh, startling one with all these brewers and Yeah. And hey, hey. We could do some different spices. Yeah. And one of the, the brewers is, uh, the founder of Equinox Brewing. And, um, he's like, well, let's, let's talk about spices. And, and so they all walked into our store and, and said, we're looking to do this. And, um, and, and you know, Peter Bukart, who's was the brewmaster at New Belgium there, was there, and, and same with his purchasing, uh, manager and, and um, and that's how we sort of connected there. Yeah. And, um, started to realize that there was a lot of opportunity with wholesale, um, specifically for breweries and distilleries. And then, After about three to four years of doing that and focusing on that and growing in that and getting the purchasing power, then we were able to approach restaurants. Mm-hmm. Um, once we could compete with, you know, the Shamrocks and Ciscos and that kind of thing price-wise. I see. So you don't isn't just custom stuff. You, if you just want a big jug of cumin Yeah. You can have that too. Yeah. So, so like, uh, one of our biggest clients is csu. Hmm. And so we, uh, every dorm, restaurant, um, we provide all their spices. Wow. Well, it sounds like you're probably in a position to contend with Shamrock Absolutely. A lot of other things too. It's, and the, the relationship that came about as part of this podcast, uh, in motion, delivering your spices around That's right. Is probably a significant factor in making that possible. Yeah, yeah. In, in motion specifically, one of the beauties is it's freeing up my time. Yeah. Um, because I, I was doing deliveries and I would just see it as a sales opportunity as well. Sure. Um, but, you know, the delivery part took, you know, hours of my time. Yep. And I can do the sales part and the maintaining of relationships outside of that. Totally. Yeah. And so that's awesome. Yeah. Well, and you don't need to call on me every time you bring a case of spices, you know? That's right. There's, there's other people that don't buy from you yet. That would be even a better opportunity for a sales call. Yeah. So, cool. Well, I'm glad that that has been working out and it seems like I. You know, no offense to the retailers out there with multi-locations and stuff, but in some ways I would say the evolution to this more wholesale centric is probably a better business model than having, especially in today's labor economy, where finding employees and managers and people that are gonna be with you for more than four months and stuff like that is so challenging. Yeah. And lease rates that, I mean lease rates in in popular areas are just going up and up and up, and. Um, so, you know, the amount of cost that goes into building a brick and mortar store right. Is, is higher and higher every year. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I just met with somebody yesterday that has a, has a franchise concept, you know, relatively small store and, and it was the, the tenant finished, not the, no, he didn't buy nothing. He just finished it, but it was about$260,000 for a pretty small space. And, uh, you know, that's a chunk, uh, it takes a lot of, a lot of jars of salt to, uh, pay for that. Yeah. For them to be able to, to turn around in three years and have their rent raised because their, their space is beautiful. Right. Yeah. You made the space so nice. We're gonna have to raise your rent. Yeah, right. You know, we know you're tied to it now. So you kind of hinted toward covid season being a really, uh, big challenge for, you know, not just your business, but let's talk about that a little bit. How, how your business was impacted and navigated. Maybe set the stage of how, how were things different right before that? Even than how they are now, if, if that's worthwhile. Yeah. So we, um, we thrived during Covid. Okay. Um, and it, it was, we had our, our issues, right? Sure. With, um, you know, closing down and, uh, figuring out how to do local delivery and how, how to do, um, you know, a lot of elements of our business, especially sourcing. Um, but the, the main issue for us, um, was sourcing the, the, you know, getting glass to put, put stuff in. Um, and aside from that, our sales were through the roof. Well, I thought like a lot of, so many restaurants were closed down and, and breweries. We're kind of struggling too, cuz they weren't selling it through the tap handles. Yeah. And a lot of their, their product goes out to restaurants, which also were closed and stuff or Right. So who was buying all this? I guess home chefs and stuff. E-commerce. E-commerce. E-commerce. Yeah. Um, the, you know, everybody that couldn't go out to restaurants. Yeah. They had to figure out how to cook. Yeah. And they wanted to be able to make their favorite dishes. Yep. Which meant they had to learn how to make their favorite dishes. Yeah. And to be able to do that successfully, they needed the right spices, um, to be able to do it. And so we, our e-commerce element to our business, just, I mean, we were up 700%. Whoa. And, um, and then now we're way down from where we were, but we also have But is that a new baseline kind of on that? Yeah, I, I, I just was, uh, I was visiting with, uh, Juan from Julian Juan's kitchen. The caterers the other day. Yeah. And he mentioned, he said that almost the same exact words like. People had to figure out how to, had to learn how to cook. Yeah. And you know, I've, as you know, I've been a, a chef, you know, I had a, a food truck restaurant and stuff, and I grew up in a family that we cooked every meal just about and stuff. But I had no idea kind of the magnitude of the. Ignorance of how to make your own damn food was Oh, yeah. Spreading in America. Yeah. Uh, and I just didn't realize the, the extent of it. Yeah. Well, and I mean, e everything, like even Uber Eats and, and all these elements where people can literally just tap something on their phone and somebody's gonna bring'em whatever they want. Yeah. You know, it's, it's so easy. And, but people had more time in Covid Nation. They're like, eh, I'm working from home anyway, and I ain't that busy and still getting paid and Yeah. Let's make that two hour meal. Yeah, sweetie. You know? Yeah. Interesting. I mean, it's, it's, I mean, surely you saw during Covid the, uh, like sourdough. Sure. You know, hu everybody's looking to make sourdough starters and, and everything. And so it, it's the same way, like we, you know, they're looking on how to make curries and how to make Yeah, yeah. You know, different, this different Mexican meals and different, you know, all these different interesting, different ways to. To eat. Huh? I never would've imagined, um, that it was, that, you know, 700% is a big number. Yeah. Um, and I guess that, you know, once restaurants came back and stuff did, did how, I guess, what do you see in that space? My, my sense is there's really market winners and losers. That's some restaurants that are busier now than they ever been. And there's some that still seem like ghost towns. Yeah. And they haven't really gotten their, their clientele back. Yeah. And I think a lot of that has to do with, um, businesses that were well established and had the reserves to be able to not fail. Right. You know, where, where had the business practices in place that they're, you know, they could, they could take, you know, six weeks or, or a month and not. You know? Yeah. Completely down. Not have to freak out and not have to file bankruptcy or rely on handouts from the government to Yeah. To be able to do it. Um, and so those, those are the places that I saw that are coming back strong and, you know, even stronger than where, where they were. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like maybe, I mean, there's quite a few restaurant openings even this month in Fort Collins. Sure. You know, last month in Fort Collins, so there's still people giving it a wing. I wonder what our numbers are overall. Yeah. To total rooftops. I have to think we're down just a little bit, but, but the city did hand out, you know, through the government funding quite a bit of gravy to really, especially restaurants. Yeah. And entertainment venues and stuff like that. So, um, I guess that made a difference too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it did. What else, uh, what else were those business navigations during that, that season, outside of the e-commerce thing? Um, outside of the e-commerce, you know, um, trucking. Was, was difficult. Mm. Um, and so, you know, the freight liners, um, the, the catastrophe and the, uh Oh right. The canals getting blocked and, and everything. I mean, we saw you're like, ocean freight costs going up by four or five times. My jars are on that ship right there. So bitch. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, we had all these opportunities with these companies wanting to do, you know, um, send their employees spices to be able to make something at home because everybody was remote. Right. And they wanted to be able to still connect with their, you know, their employees. Yeah. We're gonna have Curry lesson this week. It's like, okay, well we're gonna, we have a hard time getting the glass to be able to get right product. Right? Like, we have these sales that are possible. We just need to establish how we're gonna, how's a, how's a Ziploc baggy in the mails? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and we do, you know, bags and we do. Different ver versions of that. Yeah, yeah. Well, and making sure you don't sell what you can't get. Yeah. You know, uh, cause that when it's flowing that fast and things are changing, you're like, oh shoot, we've got 300 back order units of xpi. Yeah. And, and we don't have our next shipment coming in for a while. Yeah. And part of that's just having good relationships with your vendors. Right. And so I, I was on the phone trying to, to get, uh, you know, a couple pallets of jars and he's like, I have one pallet that I can give you and that's gonna be it until, you know, seven months from now. Cool. And so I literally got on the phone with every glass provider I knew. Yeah. And said, do you have this glass? I'll take it all. So who are these importers? Uh, are they. All over the country then that, that are your suppliers or are they on the coast, I suppose, because they're, they're auctioning. What's that marketplace look like once you go one level up from your business? Yeah. One level up from us. Um, so yeah. Port, port areas mostly. Yeah. Um, we do have one, uh, importer that, that's based in Illinois. Oh. Um, and brings things in through the Great Lakes. Sure. Um, and, uh, but yeah, Brooklyn, New Jersey, um, Florida, California, um, that kind of thing. Yeah. And so, you know, and they're bringing in container loads at a time Right. Uh, of various products and then dispersing those out. Huh. Interesting. Yeah. And I guess they have a big facility then that's, you know, like yours, but bigger. Yeah. Yeah. They have kinda warehouses that, you know, they, um, there, there are are importers that they only sell full skids. Um, so if you're gonna buy from them, you have to buy a full pallet of Okay, yep. You know, 2200 pounds of black pepper. Gotcha. Um, or there are other importers that are like, yeah, we'll break down a pallet for you. You know, give you a mixed, the price goes up 20%, you know? Yeah. It goes up a little bit or, or whatever. Yeah. 5%. Wow. Yep. Interesting. Um, so, I guess in terms of the future, what, what, what are you gonna do with Old Town Spice Shop? Do you have imaginations of having more retail locations down the road, or are you kind of on your path now with kind of continue to develop the wholesale enterprise and e-commerce appearance and, yeah. So we, um, I have no interest in opening more stores. If I was gonna do something, I would close my store. Yes. No, I, I, I have no plans of closing our store either. Um, I, I love the community aspect of having a retail outlet. Yeah. Um, and I think there's a lot of value for our business, um, locally to be able to be a part of the community and have that face of the community. Um, however, I, I see our growth as wholesale and e-commerce. Yeah. Um, and, and new products. Um, and always coming up with new products mm-hmm. To be able to get out there. Yeah. Um, we do, uh, a lot of co-packing with companies that are trying to, um, do the sales end of it. Mm-hmm. And so there's, there's big growth opportunities for us there that if, if you can help them learn how to better sell Right. These things they come up with that can be bigger volume for you later. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's working with companies that I have, you know, I have this idea, I want to do this. Yeah. Or I want to, you know, sell our pro, sell this product, but I'm not good at the sourcing, the grinding, the blending, the packaging. Yeah. All of the, you know, they don't have the resources to the back of the house to do that. Yeah. And, um, but they're great at sales. Yeah. And they can, you know, work with, you know, the, the Krogers or the Whole Foods or Yeah. The farmer markets, whatever, you know, whatever to get, get product out there. Very cool. Um, I'm gonna call a short break for, uh, potty reasons. Sure. And, uh, then we'll come back and I wanna talk a little bit about, um, your knowledge grow along the business journey here. And then we'll jump in the time machine of meet Little Sean. All right. Sounds good. So what, the question that was on my mind when I, when I came into this is, is this your first business? Had you been in business before? Um, this was my first business as an owner. Okay. Um, and, and, um, yeah. So, uh, so there's a lot of hurdles. Yeah. You've done a lot of things, but, and we'll, we'll, some of those along the way, I wanted to ask like, what have you, what did you bring? Into the business right from the start that we're intrinsic to you as strengths and what have you had to develop Yeah. In yourself as far as being a leader or HR professional, whatever. Yeah. So, so the leadership elements, um, that's sort of a, a lot of my background Okay. Um, is, is in leadership and, uh, also in putting together lots of bits. Hmm. Yeah. And so I, I've always been good. You understand the complexity Yeah. Understanding complexities, understanding where we, where you want to get to. Hmm. And all of the 2000 different items that need to happen to be able to get there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so that was the difference between my brother and I. Yeah. Um, with it is, he's very much a visionary. Right. And he's like, we're gonna do this and we're gonna have this many stores. And, and you're like, you know how many steps there are between here and there, right? Yeah. And, and I say, wait, time out. Let's figure out how to run a store to make it profitable. Yeah. And then, We can, we can address that. Um, makes sense to me. And, and so, um, you're probably a brown type, um, brown or blue in our halos thing. If you've been listening to the podcast, you've probably heard us talking about a little bit of that. Yeah. Yeah. I would be curious to know. Yeah, yeah. No, I, I'm not, I'm not sure where I would be. Yeah. Yeah. But at least you're, you're kind of a, a what I would say is kind of a linear thinker that understands the complexity of all the parts from A to A to Z kind of. Yep. And, uh, what are some of the things that you've really had to learn and Yeah. So, um, you know, the spice industry is huge, right? And so, um, I've, I've always enjoyed cooking. You're like, I understand the complexity, but there's too much. Yeah. And so there was a huge growth, um, curve within just, you know, how to process spices, how to, you know, Make sure there's quality, you know, so that quality control check. Right. Um, and you mentioned the timing, like the first time you buy a$32 pound of something that last time you paid$6 for, you're like, oh, buy that in the spring next time. Yeah. And buy a year's worth. Yeah. Right. Um, the, the, some of the budgeting elements, um, you know, I, I've always been good with money. Yeah. But, uh, it's a little different when you're looking at spending lots of money and in, you know, bringing in money. Sure. And that cash, cash, cash flow is, is more complicated to understand than than just in, out, in, out kind of, yeah. Yep. Yeah. And so it's definitely gotten a lot better at that. Well, you probably have different margins on your retail from your e-commerce, from your wholesale, and so depending on the mixture of revenues Yep. Is gonna make a lot of difference on that gross margin. Yeah. Yeah. And when, when the money has to be, you know, that, uh, opportunity cost, you know, when, when that money has to be paid back. Right. Um, so if you know you're floating something for 30 days because you don't, you don't have to pay your vendor for 30 days, then Right. Then making sure that you have that money back and Yeah. I imagine, I'm thinking about your business from a, from an inventory management standpoint and stuff too. Cuz there's some things you definitely want to have a year's worth, but the, a lot of times it's silly to have that much inventory. Cost. Cost, yeah. You got all that capital sunk into that thing and, and if it's turning every month or something. I, I was gonna ask about that, like inventory turns. What, what is normal for your industry and is it vary quite a bit by different products and things like that? Um, absolutely. We have, we have products that I buy once a year. Right. Um, and I buy five pounds of it. Right. Um, but then we also have items that I will buy, you know, a thousand pounds of it and we will go through that in a quarter. Yeah. Um, and so it, it, you know, that turn when it comes to retail, um, our retail turn is two to three weeks. Wow. Um, and so, you know, we, if you put it in the store, it's probably gone in a few weeks. Yeah. Yeah. And so that, that's that freshness quality. Right, right, right. Um, you know, our retailers and, and our e-commerce, you know, teams can, can, or customers can, can expect is mm-hmm. You know, it is fresh product. Yeah. And, you know, we ensure that it's gonna be fresh. Do you, like if something gets old, do you put it on sale or Actually just We get rid of it. Yeah. Yep. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. We, we won't just sell, you know, sell something at a discount. Right. That's just not our, our model. Fair enough. Okay. Yeah. Um, what else, uh, have been some of the areas of, uh, learning along the way for you? Yeah. The, the biggest, uh, oops. Yeah. That we had starting, um, we had, uh, you know, rented our, our first space, um Oh. Which isn't where you're now, which isn't where we are now. We were on Lyndon Street. Okay. Um, oh, I remember that. And we, you know, built out this space and, uh, when we, I, in the lease, we had a 3% escalator at the end of the three year lease. Okay. And, um, we missed the notification clause that we had to tell them that we wanted to stay. Oh. Um, six months prior to Oh shit. That, and we missed that by a month. And so then when they were like, well, and so actually the, the 3% excavator is no longer valid. Exactly. But if you wanna pay 30% more, cuz the market has 70% shifted more. Oh no shit. Yeah. And so any, any landlord's name you wanna mention or anything that's kidding, you know who you are. Yeah. Yeah. No, and, and um, you know, we left that, you know well, which is a bummer because you said 2010 you started, so the market was super soft and soupy at that time. So you assigned a sweetheart deal. Yep. Thought you had six years locked up. Yep. And, and then, um, yeah, they came back and they said, yeah, we should meet and talk. And, and we sat down and, and she, you know, the landlord kept saying, um, market rate, market rate, market rate and mm-hmm. And I said, what do you think market rate is? You know, gimme a number. Yeah. And she told me and I almost fell outta my seat. Right. Um, cuz there, there are places downtown. That are renting for less than what she had said way back then. Yeah. Yeah. And well, and Lyndon isn't primetime necessarily for, for walking traffic. Yeah. Um, yeah. Especially back then before, right. I mean, it was, um, you know, you, you look halfway down the street and nobody wants to look past that. Right. Unless they're going to New Belgium. Yeah. Back then, you know, ginger and Baker wasn't there even and stuff like that, so. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, you know, we, we had to decide do we want to pony up and, and pay that high rent? Mm-hmm. Do we want to close? Yeah. Or do we want to move? Yeah. And um, and so we were going into our busiest season of the year. Um, so we paid, um, essentially a, a six month lease. Um, that was ridiculous. Mm. Like just astronomically ridiculous. Like we didn't make a single dollar during all of the holidays that year. Um, just to see if we can make a move. Yeah. And, uh, we were able to secure a spot there on college where we are now. Mm-hmm. And I would say it's one of the best things we we ever did for our business. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, in, so my, my dad's a farmer and, uh, I always say as you know, a banker for a long time. Yeah. Probably a banker when we met originally. Yeah. Um, and except for one, he doesn't have written leases with any of his landlords. Mm-hmm. Um, it is just a handshake deal. And it's actually a little below market because they know that if he has a good year and makes a bunch of money, he's gonna bonus him maybe as much as half the rent. Yeah. But if he doesn't, then he doesn't have to have this. And it was so fascinating to me, like to know that he ran his whole business really on. Non-written contracts. Yeah. You know, and like, it's a shame that you had to learn that lesson about, uh, what a contract actually says when. Yeah. Probably in your mind it was a done deal. We negotiated the lease, it had the three, 3% escalator Yeah. And the handshake. It was done and Yeah. Yeah. And so we, um, we, we have gone into other leases with a little bit more foresight. Right. Yeah. Um, and so once a bit and twice shy. Yeah. Yeah. So, so our, our lease on college is we, we had a, uh, 15 year, um Oh wow. Like all pre-negotiated. Wow. You know, we had a couple outs. Right, right. And so, so we have lots of options. Cool. Yeah. Um, what else would you want people to know about your business, your business journey, old Town Spice Shop in general? Um, Yeah. I mean, you know, we, we work with great customers. Hmm. Um, you know, uh, we love our retail customers and they are our bread and butter. Um, and they're our advocates. Um, we work with, um, our wholesale customers. We, you know, they do everything they can to help tell our story. Yeah. Um, and so New Belgium, you know, has been a, a great customer for us for a lot of years. Yeah. Um, and even, even now, once they, they've sold to another company, a global company, and they're no longer a classified a small business Yeah. Or anything. Um, you know, they're, they just purchase Bells Brewing and they're, you know, bells Brewing is buying for Oh, they did? Okay. And, um, you know, they do collaborations all over the world and they say, oh, these, this is our spice guy. Yeah. And I get a, you know, phone call from Terrapin down in Georgia or Boulevard and That's cool. Um, and so, You know, we, we really appreciate that. Um, and then other, other customers like CSU and stuff. Um, and then all the restaurants are just amazing to work. Yeah. You're probably, uh, within your niches, you've got more connections in this town than just about anybody. Uh, I don't know. I don't know about that. I know a lot of people. Yeah. I suppose, you know, the Shamrock sales guy has a lot of connections and this and that too, right? So, yeah. Yeah. Well I want to learn about John A. Little bit. Uh, cuz I think that's a, a fun part of knowing where you came from. Um, are you a Fort Collins guy? Feels like you're kind of a Colorado guy at least, or maybe not. Yeah, so I moved here when I was one, one. I didn't miss it by much, a little under one. Um, and so I, I've lived, lived in Fort Collins or, or the surrounding area cuz we lived in the county. Yeah. Um, You know, back before, you know, harmony was much of a, a street. Right, right. Um, and so we, we live south of Harmony. Okay. Yeah. So interesting. Um, and what was, I know you got an older brother. What was the family dynamic? Is that just the one? Yeah, so just the older brother. Um, we're 18 months apart, so. Oh, wow. Not even very old. Much older. Right. Um, and then our parents, um, and, you know, we had a great childhood. Um, were you on a farm or an acreage or what was your No, no, just a house in the country kind of thing. Yeah, a neighborhood. A neighborhood in the, yeah. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, there was. It was a pretty small neighborhood. Everybody knew everybody pretty much. Yeah. And, um, um, but yeah, we would, you know, have to drive into town to go grocery shopping and that kind of thing. And, um, and what did your folks do? Uh, yeah, my mom worked for, uh, a, a cable company for, for a lot of years. Okay. Um, and was doing accounting and that kind of thing and, and then got in an accident and, um, couldn't drive to Longmont to go to, to work anymore. Um, and my dad, uh, he was a radio, um, mechanic, like making custom car stereos and that kind of thing. Oh yeah. For, uh, when I was little. And then he went back to school, um, to become a wildlife biologist. Oh wow. Um, and then was a wildlife biologist for Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, car stereos was a really big thing. Back when, when you, when, well, I'm older than you. When we were growing up and stuff like, oh yeah. It was a really, now there's car toys and that's about it seems like, right? Yeah. But yeah, everybody, you know, all the different Kenwood decks and Oh, you got the Alpine off? Oh, yeah. You know, that's interesting. So no, no entrepreneurial, uh, much going on with either of them. Yeah. My dad, um, did have his own business for, for a lot of years in Phoenix before they moved up to Colorado in the, in the carer car stereo space space, yeah. Yep. Um, and, uh, that, that didn't go a hundred percent how he had anticipated, and partly because of his partner. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, they, they ended up closing that down. Yeah. Yeah. When they moved up here. So you're, but you were just a little guy probably at that time. Yeah. Yep. So, um, what kind of a kid were you? Uh, your brother's quite a bit smaller guy, if I remember correctly. Yeah. Um, were you guys competitive with each other? Were you good students in sports? Um, I, I did some sports, um, and that kind of thing. I played soccer for, you know, 18 years type of thing. Okay. Um, and then I, I was always playing sports at, in our neighborhood, um, but never like, like super organized, super organized or competitive aside from soccer. Yeah. Um, and then in high school or in middle school, I started wrestling. Oh. And then, um, had a, an accident and that made me stop doing any physical sports. Um, and does that what you want me to talk about? Um, yeah, yeah. I can talk about it. It's, uh, I essentially, uh, was paralyzed from the neck down Oh. For four hours. Um, and Snapp in snapped my wrestling accident. Yeah. Like somebody who did a pile driver or whatever. Yeah. I mean, he, he said it was a legal move. Um, I just landed wrong. Yeah. And, uh, dislocated my right shoulder. Wow. Snapped my neck over and, oh. Uh, went. You know, neck down, limp, completely limp. And, um, four hours later started regaining the feeling of my body and Wow. Um, and so that, and you're like, I'm done with wrestling. Yeah. And the doctor essentially said, you know, you, we don't really know why you're back, are lucky that you can walk. Um, and I had to do a lot of rehab and wear a collar for six months and you're like 15 years old or something like that at this time. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, it was 14 or 15. Yeah. Well, but it was a shocking thing. I'm sure your Yeah. Parents were totally freaked out. Were you, did you get shipped right to the hospital and then you're just kind of laying there, beep, beep, beep, and then all of a sudden you can kind of move your pinky a little bit or something? Uh, sort of, it was, um, yeah, the, the ambulance came and got me back, boarded me. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and, and I was joking with the m t that, you know, I'm in a, my first ambulance ride and they're going. You know, super slow just to, to make sure they don't hurt me anymore. And I'm like, come on, put the lights on, let's go. Right. And uh, um, so yeah. And then we got in in there in, into the trauma center. And um, and you know, they ended up wheeling me into an mri and at that point the doctor looks at me and is like, can I do anything for you? And I was like, everything hurts. Hmm. You know, like that feeling like when your arm is asleep Sure. And starts coming back awake. Yeah. And it's just like pens and needles everywhere. Yeah. It's like that from the neck down. Wow. And um, he's like, I can help you with that. And gave me a shot of something and then I couldn't feel anything again. Oh, wow. So, yeah. Yeah. That sounds like a traumatic experience. Yeah. Uh, for sure. So did you like stopped with the wrestling? Yep. Kind of stopped with other. Kind of high danger activities for at least a while kind of thing. Yeah. What that, whatever it was healed back up and be stronger. Yeah. Yeah. Did you stop soccer too, or, that was Okay? Um, yeah, I, I still played some indoor soccer and that kind of thing Yeah. Um, during high school, but it was just rec, yeah. Yeah. Just enjoyable, fun. And then, uh, did you go off to school or here local, go to college? Well, so, so after that I, I got more into theater Oh. Um, into, you know, technical theater. Okay. I, I was never much of an actor or anything. And so I did set building and Okay. Um, audio engineering and in high school at first and then continued Yeah. All that kind of thing. Okay. Um, and then, yeah. And then I went, uh, to csu. Um, it was actually the, the, I went to, I was gonna take a gap year. Sure. And, uh, I remember it was the day before college started and I was like, you know, I know myself if I don't go. I won't go. Mm. And so I enrolled in one class in front range. Okay. Just to like keep my toes in. Yeah. And, um, eventually moved over to CSU and got a degree in, uh, natural resources tourism. Okay. Um, with the concentration in event management. Oh, did you stay involved with some of the theater stuff too? Um, I didn't. Yeah. Um, I didn't, I, I, uh, with the event management elements, I, I did do still a lot of like Yeah. You know, audio engineering, lighting, you know, that kind of thing. So if I, if I lose Alma and I need a podcast producer, I could probably tap you. I don't know, maybe a little rusty. Well, most of this technology was 20 years away by the, the time you were there, so, um, what's that post-college journey look like? And, and what was your college experience like? Were you, you know, it was, were you like living at home? Did you go to the dorms? Like your family's right here, right? Yeah. So the, uh, Year I graduated, my parents, uh, sold their house and moved up to Red Feather. Oh. And said, you're welcome to come live with us. Not encouraged if you want necessarily. Well, you have 45 minute drive, whatever. Right. And, uh, so I lived at the koa um Oh wow. For a while in a camper. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, uh, through, I, I had a job, um, at a local church and, uh, met some guys that, you know, were renting a house. Right. So we we got an extra room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So did that, um, and then like after school, what? Uh, yeah, what me off to you. Yeah. I, uh, um, during college I, uh, met my wife. Okay. Got married. What's her name? Uh, RI Hiri. Yeah. And, uh, we had kids right away. And so all, all during. College, you know, I, I have like a Oh wow. A seven year, you know, college education that has kids involved for the last two Yeah. Working full-time and Wow. Yeah. And so, um, yeah. Were you still working at the church there? Or what were you doing? Yeah, so I worked at, uh, the church for eight years, um, and, uh, left that to be able to start the spice business as a pastor, as a maintenance guy. Like what, what were you doing? Um, I started as an intern. Okay. Um, and, and youth, youth ministry. Okay. And then, um, went from there to, uh, being an administrative assistant and then, uh, worked more towards, uh, doing missions work. Okay. And I oversaw the facility maintenance. Yeah. And then went into, Over, over everything that went into a Sunday morning. Oh, wow. Um, and so that's, you know, the, the lights sound. Yeah. Yeah. Um, timing. Pastor still had to write his own sermon, but Yep. Otherwise, everything else interesting. I took care of and Yeah. And helped oversee and, you know, live video streaming and Wow. You know, live video editing and all sorts of stuff. Yeah. Kind of the coo for the church in some ways huh? In some ways. Yeah. Or at least for Sunday morning. Yep. Um, and then left that just going straight into the, to the Spice Shop journey. Yep. Interesting. Yep. So you haven't had too many, like major chapters, you know, a lot of, a lot of folks coming outta college Yeah. Or whatever. They've got, you know, a job for a year and then another job for a year, and they've had six, eight. 10 jobs, what you really kinda Yeah. I worked for the Marriott for five years. Okay. Um, in high school. Okay. Um, and so, and then just a little out of it. Yeah. Um, and so I, I had that, that I, I worked in the restaurant mm-hmm. And um, got to the point where I was, I could do any job and sort of helped, you know, I, I could cook, I could, they were gonna make you the manager, which was, I could one reason you worked at or went to school at Front Range to keep your toe in the education world. Yeah. No, I got my college education heavy. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Oh, we, I watched an old movie recently on a trip, um, and it was about that kind of restaurant scene from back in the eighties. I wish I could remember it now, but that was kind of the theme is, you know, once they make you the manager of the restaurant, then you're stuck there forever. Yep. Yeah. Good luck. So, um, and what church, uh, was this, if you don't mind? Uh, yeah, vineyard Fort Collins or Vineyard of the Rocks. Right over here on, on Riverside app. Yep. Gotcha. Yep. Um, Seems like, uh, how old are your kids now? So, uh, my kids are 13 and 15. Oh, wow. One will be 16 in five days. That's pretty, uh, because you're a fair bit younger than I am, it's gonna be an interesting place for you where you're like, I, my nest is empty and I'm still 42. Young and vibrant. Yeah. Yeah. Um, any, uh, exciting plans along that front? Do you guys, you and Cherri wanna do different things with your lifestyle than what you've been doing? Yeah. I mean, part, part of it's dependent on business. Right. Um, and part of it's dependent on if they stay or go and Right. Um, you know, and we're not gonna force one way or the other. Yeah. Um, you know, my, my son has, uh, every intent to go to front range and then go to C S U. Um, so he'll probably stay around. Yep. Um, we, we would like to move out of Fort Collins a little bit. Okay. Just to see something different, kind of, you've been here for most of your life. Well, out of Fort Collins is in like, to the mountains a little bit. Oh, I see. Yeah. Up by Redfin, where the fuck are or something. Yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, you know, get, get outta town a little bit and, uh, not have so many people around and yeah. And yeah. That's fair. That's fair. Um, I don't have a lot more on the, the business and life journey. Um, anything else you feel like we're skipping over or leaving up? Yeah. Um, yeah, I've traveled a ton. Oh. Trying to set up relationships and I, I wish it was, no, um, it was more, more, uh, church related, oh, missions, uhhuh, that kind of thing. Um, But I do have lots of contacts around the world that I've been, you know, trying to maintain and build Yeah. For business. And, and I, I would love to get to the point where, you know, we, we hire a champion for the business and then I go on buy buying trips. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. That'd be awesome. My, uh, my wife and I, we, we don't have kids and actually I was about year age when we kind of decided not to push hard to do that. Yeah. Cause I didn't want to be 57 or 62 and, and finally waiting for them to get outta the house. Yeah. Um, but we've hosted now nine exchange students. Yeah. And part of our. Imagination is in the future we'll be a little more footloose and just be able to go travel. Sure. And see some of these kids's and meet their spouses by then. And their have kids around the world. Kids. Yeah. Exactly. And, uh, so as your nest, uh, gets shallower, you may consider that, uh, be something interesting as well to get that international. Yeah. I was an exchange student in Germany when I was in that sixth grade. Okay. How was that? That was awesome. Full year? Full? Um, no, it was just for like a month. Okay. Short-term exchange. Yeah. And it, it was a lot of fun and yeah. Um, went with, I, I think there was like 13 of us or something like that. Wow. Did you have German skills already or did you develop some while you were there? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I, you know, could, could get by Guttin Morgan. Guttin Morgan. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, so I, I could get by in, in Germany. I could still get by in Germany. Really? That's cool. Um, but. You know, not fluent by any, any stretch. The imagination in a long ways removed at this point. And yeah, there aren't that many ways to practice around here, I guess, unless you're using your phone app or whatever. Yeah, right. Um, well, you know, the drill, the, uh, faith, family, politics, uh, segments. We've talked about family quite a bit already, um, but love to kind of dive a little deeper there. Yeah. If that's of interest. Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, so Cherie and I met at church. Okay. Um, and, uh, we were just really, really good friends. Um, and, uh, we, when was this, uh, that you met, uh, be 2004. So you're like right at that first year of college kind of timing or something? Um, yeah, I mean, I was, I was in college. I, I don't, yeah, I'm horrible at the like, space time continuum and stuff. That's fair. Um, so yeah, it was, it was 2004 cause we got married in 2005. Oh, wow. Um, and so, yeah, I was imagining this long term friendship thing, but that wasn't No, no. I mean, we, you know, we were, we were really good friends. Um, and, you know, she, she, uh, had sisters and everything in town and, and, um, it was myself and two guys living in this, in this house. And she set up her sisters with my roommates, and then we started dating, and then all three of us, like we all got married. Is that right? And so, you know, fa family gatherings are, are a blast. Oh, that's, that's cool. They're some of my best friends. Yeah. And everybody's the same age, and Oh, that's really cool that your sis your sister's or your wife's sisters married your buddies, basically. Yep. Yep. That's cool. Yep. Um, what would you say outside of just that instant friendship, uh, what were the things that, you know, maybe attracted her to you and, and vice versa? Um, what attracted to me to her was, um, Her independence. Hmm. And so, uh, sh just that she, she had her own life and she, you know, had a, had a great job and Yeah. And was doing well and, um, wasn't looking for somebody to, to just come in and swoop. And, you know, I was talking with somebody the other day about one of the most attractive things about a, a female, a woman, uh, oftentimes is that they don't need you. Yeah. They want you, like, that's amazing that they want you, but that they don't need you is, is quite compelling sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, yeah. And so I, what she saw in me and I, I, you know, I don't know. That's some, that's a question for her when she comes on. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, and, uh, we always do, uh, one word descriptions of your children. Yeah. Um, would you like to attempt that? Sure. Uh, task. So Cohen, um, Cohen's your oldest Is my oldest. Okay. Um, he, oh, I even knew a question was coming and it's hard, it's hard to, um, he is contemplative and adventurous. Hmm. Nice pair of, uh, nice pair of qualities. Yeah. Should serve him well. Yeah. Um, cont quantum adventurous. Maybe we can a that Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sure. That's, that's, I like that. How about the number two? Yeah, Mara. Um, my, my second is, um, she is overwhelmingly caring. Hmm. Um, and she, she could mother a nation and, and she loves. Yeah. Loves kids and loves, loves her peers and, and, um, yeah, tremendous strength. Potentially a vulnerability at times if she tries to do it too much. Yeah. Um, but sounds like an amazing young lady. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, what are they, what are they involved with? Is, is Cohen an athlete? Great student. How about Mara Co. Cohen is a great student. Um, he's had a lot of, of challenges, um, over the years, uh, but he is just thriving Awesome. In school. Um, and he'll actually graduate early. Wow. Um, and, uh, and then Mara is, um, just right on track. She, she doesn't do, um, any sports or anything. No. But, um, you know, she, we, we as a family love to travel. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, we all look forward to that. And, um, Getting new experiences. And so I've, I've met your mother actually, she at least at one point, worked at the Spice Shop a little bit. Yeah. When I was down there picking up some spices or negotiating over some new order. Um, is your dad still around too? You mentioned they divorced, but so yeah, so my mom actually passed away a couple years ago. Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. Um, yeah. Um, and uh, so that was, that was tough and that was hard in the business. And um, and then my dad is, uh, he's still around Fort Collins ish. Um, he's looking to sell his house in the next year or so and then, um, moved down to Arizona. Oh wow. Terrific. Back to Phoenix area or whatever and yeah. And is talking about your mom, something you care to do? Sure. What she was, cuz she was so vibrant and warm when I met her. Was she taken by cancer or No, she was, um, Uh, she was up camping and kayaking and, and doing the things she loved and had a heart attack and Wow. And died. Oh, wow. It was very sudden. Very wow. Yeah. Yeah. So sorry to hear that. I mean, I, I remember, um, even when you, you introduced me to her, like it was, you guys had such a special relationship between the two of you and I, I suspect that you're a bit of a mama's boy and, uh, yeah. Yeah. So, well, God bless. Uh, and, uh, so on the family front, is there o other. Things that really come to mind that you'd like to share? Any family themes or do you travel with your, your wife's sisters and buddies and stuff like that? Is that like kind of your big family now? We will, um, the, this, this year is the first year that we're gonna travel. Uh, it's my wife and her twin sister and their family. Okay. Um, and so we're all going to Mexico together. Oh, cool. Um, and should, should be a good time. Yeah. They, they don't travel a ton. Yeah. Um, and so, uh, it it, it'd be very special for them especially. Yeah. Yeah. And, and our, our kids, uh, their kids and our kids are, are just about the same age. Cool. Um, and so they'll have a blast. Yeah. It'll be a lot of fun. Um, do you prefer to talk about religion or politics or both? Or Faith rather? I don't usually talk about religion too much. Um, sure. Faith. Yeah. Yeah. What, uh, are you still part of the Vineyard Church or, uh, I'm not. Okay. Um, I, I, uh, my wife and I go to Timberline. Okay. Um, and, uh, really enjoy that. Um, yeah, I was just there for a, a funeral service, unfortunately recently, but every time I'm in there I'm like, this place is so nice. Yeah. Like, it's kind of like the, oh, I don't know. The, the restaurants that always smells just right or the, you know, different shops and stuff that just, I don't know, they just do a really nice job of creating a welcoming environment there. Yeah. Yeah. So has that been a, uh, been with Timberline for quite a while than I imagine? Yeah. Yeah. We've um, when, when we started the business, we tried to maintain going to the vineyard. Mm. Um, but when you oversee so many elements, Of it. Yeah. Um, the, the first week we went and somebody crawled up and tapped me on the shoulder while I was trying to go to church, and they're like, we need you to help do this. And, and we were like, this isn't gonna work. So the three services that Timberline offers is flexibility. Yeah. Yeah. We, we went to Timberline and like, oh, we can, you know, be ambiguous or whatever it is, melt into the background a little. Yeah. Yeah. Um, were, were you raised in a, in a fam faith-filled environment? No. No. Not at all. Okay. Um, no. So when, when I was, uh, oh, maybe three or four, I went to church once. Hmm. And, um, hadn't been back to church since, until I was, uh, in high school. Wow. Um, and I had a friend, uh, that was really good friends when we were in sixth grade. Okay. And he had moved away, um, and, uh, moved to the Middle East. Oh, wow. And his dad was a diplomat and, uh, he came back, I ran into him at a high school football game Okay. When we were juniors. Oh, wow. And was like, whoa, where you been? Yeah. And so we, we sort of rekindled friendships and, um, and he, you know, pretty much introduced me to who Jesus was and Interesting. Um, and you started going to church with like, him and his family and stuff like that? Kind of, uh, just like used group and, and that kind of thing. And it was at the vineyard and, and that's, uh, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Do you remember, like, was there a moment for you when you're like, aha, I got it? Or was it really kind of a, you know, a one year process of brick upon brick kind of thing? Yeah, it was, um, answering a lot of questions. Yeah, I, I had a lot of questions and, and a lot of misconceptions and, um, on, on what Christians were and who they were and what they believed, and, um, and so it took a lot of, you know, getting questions answered. Yeah. Um, before I, I would entertain the idea of, yeah. Yeah. Do you remember some of those questions now? Like, um, not a lot of'em, no. Yeah, no. Yeah. I mean, to me, I, I was not a, to, I actually went to church until I was 13. Then once I got confirmed I was like, you know, if, if dad doesn't have to go to church on Sundays, I'm not either. Uh, but it was a very kind of progressive church. I never, I like to say I never really heard the good news until I was in my kind of mid to late twenties. Yeah. Um, it was like, you know, if you're baptized and you're from just church, then you're good, but you don't have to worry, worry about what you're good from. Um, but. That it all, you know, that phrase, if it seems too good to be true, it almost always is. Mm-hmm. That was probably the, the major principle that I carried around when I heard about what Christians believed and what the, the good news, what the Gift of Christ and Grace is. Yeah. And it took for me and also a lot of investigating to be like, oh, there's this and this, and all these kind of, you know, all the Old Testament prophecies and things and kind of seeing that fulfillment and that just even the need. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I think one of my biggest hurdles was, um, Christians and themselves. Oh, for sure. And you know, the, the guy on the corners, you know, speeding that everybody's going to hell and, and the anti love piece. Yes. Right, right. And then finding out, well that's, that's not actually, I. What Jesus taught. Yeah. Yeah. The, the WW j d uh, has a lot of different behaviors than what the Christian community tends to exhibit. Yeah, exactly. Uh, and you know, the hypocrisy is thick with many. Yep. Um, yeah. And then, and then working in the church too is, is eye-opening. And because you see people from lots of different ways coming and they're like, um, you know, it, it's, it's very interesting to see what people believe a church is there for. Mm. And how they want that to look. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, the entitlement elements to it. Well, and especially when you're at that ground level in a church organization, and cuz like some of us have this imagination that, oh, if you, if you work for a church, you're a pretty good person, obviously. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then you get to see kind of the, just the, the shade that. Is in the heart of everybody. Yeah. Um, and can get them to exhibit behaviors that aren't ww j d Yeah. Well, and you know, uh, anybody I, I've met that's, you know, entertaining the idea of going to a church or, or, you know, investigating Jesus. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I always tell'em to remember that, you know, everybody in the church is, is in the same situation. They are. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're all humans. They all make mistakes. They all sin, they all, you know, fall short of, of what we should be held to. I like the way that, uh, that Jordan Peterson describes it in his podcast sometimes, and, and really the, the definitionally like sin, the definition of sin is kind of missing the target. Yeah. You know, and sometimes in our modern world, we try to throw the target away. Yeah. Like, there is no target. But that's, I think, you know, missing the target regularly, but having a target, it's probably preferential to. Just drifting and firing away at whatever. Yeah. You know? Um, anything else that feel like needs to be shared in that faith space? No. Have your kids expressed an interest in Uh, yeah. My daughter, um, she's been, um, she's gonna be, uh, volunteering in the, in the nursery and Okay. You know, and, um, mo moving more, in, more into sort of teaching service elements element a little bit. Yeah. Cool. Good. Yeah. Um, politics. Yeah. I have no idea where you're at in politics. Uh, you probably know more about my politics than I know what yours cuz I've been talking to this podcast here and there in there. Uh, not crazy about politics. That's good. I, I, uh, I, I think politicians are, are pretty self-serving a lot of the times. I like the, uh, old expression that politics is what we developed so that we didn't actually have to hack people. Pack each other to death with swords. Yeah. Okay. Um, but it doesn't make it pretty. Yep, yep. Yeah. Um, yeah, I, I don't like, uh, I don't know. Yeah. I'm not crazy about talking politics. I'm not crazy about Yeah. We could, uh, we could keep the party out of it. One, one phrase I've heard lately is that, you know, yes, you've got the left and the right kind of thing, and that imagined kind of blue red kind of thing, but more accurately there's, there's authoritarians and there's libertarians. Mm-hmm. And, and that's really the spectrum, because there's authoritarians on the right and on the left and vice versa. Yep. And so I try to boil it down to that a little bit more. Are you, are you somebody that wants to really keep people in line, you know, everybody except for yourself typically? Or are you the kind of person that wants to let everybody do their thing as long as it doesn't hurt others? Yeah, I, I would, I would. I would say I am not a libertarian, but I lean more towards libertarian. Yeah. Yeah. On that spectrum anyway. Yeah. Um, from a, from a local politics perspective, is there anything that drives you crazy? Have you, uh, prepared for the higher minimum wages in Fort Collins or anything like that yet? Yeah, I mean, I, I think the higher minimum wages and stuff are unnecessary. Um, yeah. I think it's kind of a, a solution looking for a problem. Yeah. And, you know, I don't pay minimum wage. Um, and, and I, I value my teammates and, and value my employees and do everything I can to make sure that they can live in Fort Collins and surrounding areas. Yeah. Um, and so because of that, we, you know, I think we pay well. Yeah. Um, they may not right that, but, well, everybody always wants more, but, yeah. Um, but you know, I, I don't think that locally people understand what that will do to small business. Yeah. Fair enough. Um, do you wanna talk about any current events or anything like that? Uh, in terms of politics, what we got, we got, well, Donald Trump said he is gonna be indicted today. Yeah. We gotta see how, what happens there. Yeah. Um, do you think that's, uh, have you looked at that conversation at all? Do you think that's obvious? Do you think it's silly? Do you think it's counterproductive necessary? I think accountability to, um, our politicians is great. Yeah. Fair. Fair. Um, and I, I think the DA's discretionary elements of being able to charge or not charge. On a whim is, is a little ridiculous. Right. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think, you know all Yeah. You don't wanna see any politician above the law either. Yeah. I think all politicians should be held to a higher standard. Yeah. And because of that, be held accountable for their actions. Okay. On Fair enough. Yeah. All politicians. Yeah. Yeah. Not, not just one side. We're not Yeah. Fair. You, you don't have, uh, you don't have orange man bad, uh, syndrome necessarily, but speaking philosophically or whatever, have you noticed, I bet you've noticed that though. There's, what do they call it? The, uh, Trump derangement syndrome. Mm-hmm. How many people do you know that that exhibit symptoms of that, uh, dozens, decent, decent amount. Right. It's, uh, it's alarming. More, more than I, I would like care to like, right. Yeah. You could think he's a terrible person and a narcissist, and I wouldn't ever let him in a room with my sister and still at least have some element of rational thought when it comes to. That topic. Yeah. Uh, presumably, although some people cannot any longer. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we've, uh, I've been, I've been courting you lightly for a local think tank for most of the last, you know, nine years. Uh, I'm curious, the question I want to ask is mm-hmm. Why have I been so unsuccessful in, uh, in drawing your interest in, in what we do here? Yeah. Um, I think a sense intrigue, but never quite, yeah. You know, um, I love the idea of logo think tank, and I love the, um, getting together with other people and helping to chip at problems and that kind of thing. Yeah. Um, the reason you haven't gotten me is because I generate that myself with other businesses. Oh. Um, and so I, our business is very community collaborative. Um, and so I am constantly talking with other businesses, helping them, you know, asking them questions even and exploring their new recipe thing, this and that. Yeah. And trying to figure out the, their pain points and discussing Yeah. Pain point, you know, what they're going through, you know, and then what I'm going through and, and so those elements, it may not be as organized as what you provide. Sure, sure. But you haven't really felt an absence of that. Yeah. So compared to a lot of, and it's, you know, I, that's a great answer actually. Yeah. Because a lot of my members, they don't really. Come out into the daylight mm-hmm. Except for their meetings and different things. Right. They're, they're trapped kind of in their business a little too much and, and don't get a chance to work on it as much as they might like. But most sounds like many of those collaborative interactions that you have out in the community and things like that, they, they develop into kind of a relational element that has some of that already. Yeah. Well, and because of the, um, connections that we've built in, um, you know, small, medium and large corpor corporations, right. Um, it provides different resources for us to be able to ask questions and say, Hey, we're having this pain point. Right. What do you guys do with this? Yeah. Yeah. And how, you know, do you guys have internal processes that would help us? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you know, people are so forthcoming Yeah, for sure. Willing to help. Um, especially when there is that, that standing relationship. I, uh, do you know who Maureen Boyt is that name familiar? Um, the name sounds familiar. She developed a, a group, uh, called the Moxi Exchange, which was kind of a, a lady's peer advisory. Okay. Yeah. Had a bunch of'em at one point, like kind of scaled rapidly locally and regionally. And then, so she, I, I called on her at one point and said, Hey, I think I'm gonna take this loco think tank thing seriously. You know, I'm in my, I'm starting my third group now and da da da da, but I really, I should at least have a contract instead of a handshake with some of these facilitators and stuff. And, uh, anyway, she spent like 90 minutes on the phone with me during our first conversation, and, and by the end of it, she emailed me her subcontract that she had used for her facilitators for the Moxie Exchange years before. Yeah. And referred me to her husband, uh, who, uh, owns the Leap and Lizards. Labels. Okay. Yeah. And Todd. And, uh, it was just such a. Pronounced act of generosity. Yep. You know, she spent thousands of dollars on that contract and, and whatever. And you know, I was in some ways kind of competing with her concept from back then and whatever, but it was just so generous. And I think yeah. We, we share that, uh, uh, we engage with people that have that generosity of spirit. Yep. Mostly. Yeah. Well, and when you see people, um, especially business customers and, and, and stuff as more than just a dollar. Yeah. You know, and you, you talk about them, you know, ask them about their kids. You ask them, you know, you ask you, you build a relationship with these people and you know they want to help you. Yeah. Yeah. They want you to be successful. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then that's a big deal. Agreed. Um, have you taken time to consider what your loco experience would be? That crazy experience? I have lots of crazy experiences. You can, you can share a couple of'em if you'd like. So obviously the, the head or the pile driver. Yeah. Para para thing. Definitely, definitely. Um, a crazy experience. Um, one of my favorites is, uh, I wa I was, um, uh, ta go going to Israel from Jordan. Okay. And the, uh, we crossed the border. There was, there was like, uh, I think there was nine of us and I was leading this trip. Jordan's north of Israel. Is that right? Uh, Jordan's directly, um, east. Okay. And so we were, we were sort of in the middle of the country. Yep. And it wasn't a common border used by tourists and tourists. Right. Um, and so, um, it was a lot of Arabs, a lot of, you know, a lot of, um, different things and, and. We were going through, and I always tell people when I'm traveling with them, like there are certain times that you just don't, you don't, you know, break smiles, you don't make jokes you don't like, you just, yeah. This is a serious point. Yep. And once we get on the other side of that, we can have fun. We can, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, um, so when we were going through customs and everything, um, they, they hassled one of our gals, um, just because of her last name. And then we got through and to the point where they were gonna stamp her passports and they said, um, I'm just gonna keep these, I need you guys to go sit over there in that secure area. I'm like, okay. So we go over and sit there and I'm like, can I have those back? Right? And she's like, no. I'm like, all right, what's going on? Like, she's like, just go over there. Somebody will be with you. And so, um, this lady comes out, And, um, says, you know, you guys are, you know, going here. We were going to a conference in, um, Bethlehem. Okay. And, um, I'm like, yeah. And she's like, who's, who's leading? You know, your trip? And I was like, that's me. And, um, she's like, okay, come with me. And she's got two armed guards next to her bullshit. And, um, so we go into this, this hallway, you know, and there's one chair and a, and a security camera facing at it. She says, sit there. And they go in this other secure door. I sit there for 10 minutes and I'm like, what's going on? And comes back the two yards. Come back and say, follow us. Go in. And I get interrogated for four hours about what we're there doing, why we're coming to Israel. Whoa. Everybody I've ever known there. And, um, Like back and forth between like sitting in this chair and going back in and getting asked the same questions over and over. And they're probably agitated and upset kind of or something. Like, did they have some idea of who, what you're trying to get away with? Yeah. Um, I later found out that it was political posturing. Mm. Um, that they were expecting backlash from, you know, the right vice vice president was staying at the, um, hotel that we were going to. Oh wow. And had just left and had found out some things about what they were doing on, you know, uh, something. Right. When is this that Israel was doing? Um, this is 2012 or something. Oh, this was, no, probably earlier than that. Yeah. Earlier than that. Uh, probably 2010. No, so that was Obama was the president and so Biden was, vice versa, was earlier than that. Okay. Um, cuz uh, George Bush was. Was Okay. Bush two? Yeah. Okay. Was was president. So what was that? Was Dan Coyle? No, it was, no, it was, uh, what was his name? Eh, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Um, anyway, so they were really just, they were basically picking, spoiling for a fight. And you were a convenient, uh, softball for them to knock around. Yeah. Yeah. Apparently. Wow. Um, and so, yeah. And then that was it. Like, yeah, okay, here's your stack of passports back. They, they essentially said that I had to prove to them that what we, why we were there, um, or they were gonna turn us back. And so I, I said, well, I'm with a church group, like, we're going to this conference, like you can call them. These are, these are the people that we're, we're going to see. And they said, um, do you have a business card? I was like, I, I don't. Right. And, um, I'm a volunteer for a church group. Yeah. Well, I, you know, and I was working for the church at the time, and, and she's like, well, um, do you have anything proving that you're with this church? And I was like, well, I have a church credit card. Oh. That has the church name on it. Right. And she's like, only in America. Right. And it was That helped though. Sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. And so she's like, okay, well I'm gonna let you go and if you guys get in any trouble, you'll never come to Israel again. Huh. I was like, okay. Oh, you were on the Israel side? Yeah, we were going into Israel. Oh, I see. I was assuming the, the Arabs or the Jordanians were kind of busting your hump, but it was actually Israelis that were Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, maybe. Well, it's crazy if, uh, if people wanna order something yummy from near or far, uh, do they just go to the Old Town Spice Shop website? Yep, absolutely. Yep. And that's just, is that old town Spice shop.com? Old town spice shop.com. That's easy. We have everything on there and, um, we have over 5,000 different items and, uh, if there's wholesale clowns, restaurateurs, things like that, uh, they can look you up on there and make an appointment to come in for a tasting and spice review and discussion about what we can do for you. Yeah, absolutely. Um, there's a, a. Contact us form there. That goes right to me. Um, we also have a wholesale website they can click to. Oh, nice. Um, it's all gated, so there's no pricing or anything there, but, uh, there is a wholesale application there, um, that they could fill out and, uh, we can get'em, once you're approved, they're gonna turn on your pricing. Yep. Cool. Exactly. Awesome. Well thanks for making time this morning. Yeah, thank you. And, uh, look forward to our next conversation and, uh, thanks for the introduction. Or wait, did you give me help? No, that was actually different. I've got Gabe Armstrong with, uh, Zoe's Kitchen. He's making my hot sauce that I called you about. Nice. Yeah, the Loco experience hot sauce is, uh, probably the peppers are fermenting right now. Nice. Yeah. Nice. So, uh, anyway, I digress. Uh, Sean, you become my, uh, my, uh, navigator of flavor for Northern Colorado. Great. So, uh, you could actually put that in your business card. Now. You're not a navigator of flavor. I like that. So thanks everybody for listening and thanks for being here today, Sean. Yeah, thank you. Got speed.