EXPERIENCE 100 | Dudley Brown and Ben Gates, More Guns for a Safer America!
Dudley Brown is the Founder and President of Rocky Mountain Gun Owners (RMGO), and the President of the National Association for Gun Rights (NAGR), both based in Loveland, Colorado. Ben Gates is a previous guest and longtime friend, President of NG Companies and CFO and Partner in Kinetic Research Group, a firearm manufacturing business based in Idaho that specializes in stocks for competitive long-distance shooting.
After a short career in politics after college, Dudley launched RMGO in 1996. Dudley invites us behind the curtain of building an advocacy organization, along with expanding the mission to a national scope with NAGR. Ben, who shared his career journey in Episode 6 of the podcast, now gives us more of his experience in shooting sports and his transition into becoming a partner and CFO of Kinetic Research.
Lots of politically incorrect conversation in this one, and plenty of unvarnished truth about the way things work in state and national politics. If you’re curious why we need more guns for a safer America, you’ve come to the right place!
Learn more about Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, National Association for Gun Rights, NG Companies, & Kinetic Research Group
The LoCo Experience Podcast is sponsored by: Logistics Co-op | https://logisticscoop.com/
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Music By: A Brother's Fountain
Dudley Brown is the founder and president of Rocky Mountain Gun Owners and the president of the National Association for Gun Rights, both based in Loveland, Colorado. Ben Gates is a previous guest and longtime friend, president of NG Companies and C F O and partner in Kinetic Research Group, a firearm manufacturing business based in Idaho that specializes in stocks for competitive long distance. after a short career in politics after college, Dudley launched R M G O in 1996 by sending out a mailer on a shoestring budget, and the rest was history. Dudley invites us behind the curtain of building an advocacy organization along with expanding the mission to a national scope with N A G R and especially what needs those organizations. Ben shared his career journey in episode six of the podcast alongside c e o and founder of NG Companies. And in this episode we zoom in on Ben's experience with shooting sports, starting in high school, shooting with his buddy's father and his transition into becoming a partner and c f o of connect research. There's lots of politically incorrect conversation in this one and plenty of unvarnished truth about the way things work in state and national politics and why the NRA is a bunch of Hosers Deadly's a fascinating figure on a national level, and he is based right here in Northern Colorado. So if you're curious why we need more guns for a safer America, you've come to the right place and I hope you'll tune into my conversation with Dudley Brown and Ben Gates.
Curt:
Welcome back to the Lo experience. This is your host, Kurt. Be and I'm pleased today to be joined by Dudley Brown and Ben Gates. And, uh, Hey. Hey. Welcome fellas. Go. Glug glug glug glug. And this is the bourbon tasting episode. And so we'll give some commentary. The Taylor is fine. Very fine. Bourbon and guns. Bourbon and guns today. So, um, Dudley is the president of Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, as well as the President of National Association for Gun Rights, and Ben is a longtime colleague of mine from my banking years now President of NG Companies and a partner in Krg Kinetic Research group. Yep. Gun manufacturing. We made it out. So, uh, making America safer by arming the freedoms. There you go. It's true. So, um, can we just start with you Dudley, and just like describe both of your organizations. Tell me, you know, if you have staff, how many members? I know one state one's kind of more of a. Uh, but give us some groundwork for those that are uninitiated.
Dudley:
Yeah. I'm, I'm my elevator speech. Like who, who? N A G R. Mm-hmm. Or R M G O. The two gun rights lobbies are, and their nonprofits 5 0 1 Okay. Um, but my elevator speech is, we do what you think the NRA does. they don't actually do that. Um, we do that. Uh, so, um, we're, we're, uh, Rocky Mountain Gunners has been around, uh, since 1996. Uh, N A G R, uh, I took over as the c e o of the what then was, uh, just a piece of paper, a piece Tiger.
Curt:
Kinda a, a flailing or never really had because what, barely even existed. I see. Um, somebody had imagination of a national associated for gun rights. Yeah.
Dudley:
And, um, because we were so frustrated with the compromises and the capitulation of the nra. Yeah. And, uh, um, and I took over it in 2006. Okay. Um, and was asked to, to lead it. And now any jars, the second largest gun rights group in America. Um, first if you don't count the NRA as a gun rights group, which I don't, um, but, um, fair we're based in, in Loveland or main headquarters, but Okay. Of course, like most people, we've had to learn how to do, uh, remote offices. Uh, we've had to. ever since our existence Because you're operating in state legislatures around the country. Mm-hmm. and we have staff all over. We've got people on the ground kind of thing. Yeah. You know, we have a DC office, but, um, we have about, right now, I think we have about 65, close to 70 staff. And,
Curt:
um, is it mixed or the two separated in terms of the
Dudley:
staffing? Any hrs? The majority of the staff we have, we have two staff members for R mgo. Gotcha.
Curt:
In the state, more administrative kind of things and local events and whatever, but Right. The big horsepower
Dudley:
goes to the nagger. Well the, this, they are two separate legal entities. Fair. So is the best way to describe'em. And, you know, and we, we work in politics, um, but we work on the Second Amendment issues. And of course, to work on Second Amendment issues, you have to use the First Amendment, fair. Um, so yeah, whenever I'm interviewed by a member of the press and they say, gee, why, why aren't you in favor of these Brady background checks for someone, uh, buys a gun? I'm a, well, I'm opposed to not only that on the Second Amendment, but I'm opposed to it on the First Amendment. I don't think you should have to have government permission before I talk into this microphone. Before you publish it, before you write something. I mean, wouldn't you be upset if someone did that? Well, if, if they required that before you publish this podcast, um, you know, the reporters look at you like, Oh,
Curt:
Well, yeah. Unless you might say something
Ben:
dangerous.
Dudley:
Yeah. And, and they say they have that look on their face like, gosh, um, are you really? Well, of course, but that's, these are different. And I'm like, no, they're not. I mean, I mean, they're one right after the other. They're the two, two civil rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights and only, and frankly, recognized as rights by God, uh, that were given to us as natural rights. Natural rights. So, so the, and they were right next to each other. And I, I don't think government has any right to know what kind of weapon you carry or what kind of tank you have in your garage. Um, all right. So,
Curt:
fair enough. Yeah, that's a good intro. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. Or
Ben:
what movie you watch or what spaghetti weed on a Thursday, or
Dudley:
what your opinion is as long as you're not advocating, um, for the violence. Go. Yeah. Go whatever. Yeah. Or, uh, violence, againsts, whatever. Then, then government has no right to restrict it. And in fact, there's lots of, uh, there's lots of case law and, and most journalist majors, uh, had to study that in school. It's called Prior Restraint. It's, it comes out of when, when, uh, a judge. Uh, tried to, when police tried to stop a newspaper from publishing something in 1860 or something. Okay. And, and, and the judge said you can't re restrict them cuz they might publish something bad. Um, now once they do, if they, if it's criminal, if they, if they did and violated the law after they've done it, well then they violated the law. Um, and so that's, that's why we say, people say what rights are not absolute, especially the second amendment. I say, well, you know, gun control is more like taping someone's mouth because they might yell fire in a crowded theater. Mm-hmm. Because taping everyone's mouth, that's not right. But
Curt:
Ben, I'm part of my job, a minority report there. part of my job as the host is to make sure you're not sitting in the peanut gallery too much. Um, why don't you tell the listeners what you do at, at your two jobs. Yeah, sure. And then, uh, then
Ben:
how we met and why we're both in the same room. Yeah. I like it. Yeah, I know. Uh, so, so currently with, uh, NG companies, um, uh, president and kind of acting as CFO of, of that Okay. Organization, of course. You haven't been a CFO yet. Yeah. Well, you know, with the banking background you kinda get, you know, pigeonholed into that. Yes sir. So, uh, and of course, you know, business partner and Sure. And the main
Curt:
owner, you guys were Cameron, episode six. Yeah. Of the local experience.
Ben:
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Uh, pre pandemic
Curt:
just wasn't like, right. Yeah. During December of, is that what it was? 20. Is that what it was? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that was good times. So you guys have both just recovered not long before.
Ben:
Yeah. It was a, that was a challenging time. It was, uh, well, no, made it through and, and really growing well and got some, uh, really exciting
Curt:
prospects had it. And So engine company does what? Yep. Yeah. Hydro
Ben:
excavation. Okay. Like of a wet dry, like a shop vac the size of a concrete mixer. Yeah. And go around and, and suck, you know, dirt out of the ground. So.
Curt:
And that's Ben sucks. Yeah. Ben suck. Worst. Yeah, we suck. You know why it's, you know why it's so windy in North Dakota, Dudley. Because Minnesota sucks and Montana blows. Oh, oh yeah. There you go. Go. So, uh, so NG's company's got a a hundred and some employees running around doing hydrovac and Yeah. Yeah. We're, you don't pull lines, you don't do nothing else. You just suck holes. Yeah,
Ben:
exactly. Uh, instead of putting a big mechanical excavator, you know, in the ground and, and digging down and hitting a gas pipe and blowing up, you know, the house next to'em and, you know, killing the operator. Water spray sucker thing. Exactly. You just, you, you shoot water in the ground, you suck the water up so that you can, or, you know, the mud, the slurry, I'm
Curt:
thinking like Richie Rich style, like the machines that they had that could just like, build a highway just by one path. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just kinda goes under the ground, unfortunately. But it, but it sucks you a path that you can do other stuff, run pipe,
Ben:
this and that. Yeah. Yeah. You can do that. Or, or it's, it's really that you're looking for a gas line or an electrical line. Mm-hmm. because construction is about to commence and, oh, you don't know exactly where it is. The, as builds say, should be six feet down and it should be approximately right here. And you find out it's three feet down and it's four feet over. So you gotta find it before you get an excavator in to, to dig the ground. And so, It's a huge safety, you know, mechanism really. Yeah. Interesting. And, um, and
Curt:
then, uh, kinetic research does what? Yeah.
Ben:
Uh, so yeah, so I've been an NG company since about 2019 when I got out of banking. Yep, yep. And, uh, yeah, you and I
Curt:
hold that, you know, I tried to hire Ben back in the day. That's true. And he's started crashing, uh, a networking group that, uh, we did, that's how Ben and I got cleaned. It was It's your net network group? Yeah, well the bank sponsored old town Tuesdays, and it was ping pong pool, beer and conversation. Liberty minded people, I suppose is probably a way to say it. Yeah. Just good business owners, good people. And uh, yeah, Ben's a banker for another organization. He starts like coming regularly and I'm like, you're cool, so it's fine. just don't steal my customers. Right. Oh. So, uh, anyway, so kinetic research. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then,
Ben:
uh, been a, uh, a partner with Kinetic Research Group, I think since about 2015, 14 or 15. I don't, okay. I don't recall. It's been a while. Uh, and we make long range precision chassis, which is, uh, stocks for rifles. Okay. And, uh, and accessories for
Curt:
those. Okay. Not barrels, not triggers, just we
Ben:
do make chas some firearms as well. Um, that's not our Yes, they do. Yeah. No, we, yeah. Make a, a very good, uh, long range precision rifle. I have one. Yeah. And, uh, it shoots, uh, shoot real well laser beam shoot real good. But, uh, but the core of our business is, is these aftermarket accessories and, and stocks.
Curt:
Sp screwing up your AR 15 kind of, uh, yeah.
Ben:
Bolt action rifle. So if you got a Oh oh, okay. Remington 700 or a Tika t3, you a bolt action rifle and you stick it in and you know, it's, you wanna go
Curt:
Elk cunning. I got a model 100. You got a model 100. I, I do not, don't have Model little too classic maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not too many around. Um, and so is that company. It's up in Idaho still. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah.
Ben:
Yeah. So, so, uh, it actually started here in Colorado. Okay. And, um, or maybe why, uh, Dudley and I are kindred spirits and some of these things that started in Colorado and then after some of the gun laws that passed in 2012 and became, uh, came to effect in
Curt:
2013. You were like that Mag Fest or Mag Pole? Left. Mag
Ben:
pulled that left and Yep. Yeah. And, uh, and actually one of our business partners at krg, uh, has a history of Magpole. He, he started out there Okay. Doing some engineering. Yeah. So we're friendly with those guys. Um, and so Krg left and went to, to Boise, um,
Curt:
and, and has had full of people. Yeah. I think, uh, I think we got about craft kind of operation. Yeah.
Ben:
Uh, kind of a, a small boutique. Uh, you know, I think we got about, uh, goodness. I think we're at 12 employees right now. Oh. That's pretty s sizeable. And, um, and we're kind of, kind of spread out. Uh, a couple of our partners are in Boise. Uh, most of our operations are up in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.
Curt:
Wow. Uh, I'm here. Seems like an interesting place to find a labor force in Coeur d'Alene, but Yeah.
Ben:
Yeah. Uh, you know, and that's kind of, that's become kind of a rich person's haven. We sort of accidentally stumbled on that place years ago. Okay. And, uh, and now there's a bunch of rich people building, you know, multimillion dollar homes and this little fledgling, you know, business. So, uh, and then, uh, myself and, um, another gal journey, uh, live, uh, here in, uh, Northern Colorado. Yeah. Yeah. So we're all kind of remote and, um, we've always worked that way. So pandemic didn't really change much for us. Cool. Yep. And, um, yeah, and it was actually in. That I'm at, I'm at Dudley.
Curt:
And Dudley, would you like to transition from there? Tell me about young, uh, Ben.
Dudley:
Yeah. Well, um, it was funny because we were, um, selling our, our building in, uh, downtown Windsor. Okay. Windsor was getting a little chichi at the time. And, and, um, and so we were gonna sell the building and we needed to buy another building. And with all them, you didn't have enough money? All his employees? Well, I mean, we actually did, but we wanted a finance part of it. So we, um, and that's the tough part. It's a nonprofit. Right. I don't own it, you know, I joke, um, you know, if I die tomorrow, um, my kids get nothing. Right.
Curt:
Fair. My wife gets nothing. That's why you have to have an overinflated salary now while you can.
Dudley:
Yeah, I can. Uh, you better invest wisely.
Curt:
Invest
Dudley:
wisely. Yeah, that's what I meant. Uh, um, so we, uh, uh, we approached a number of banks and, and of course they all want a personal guarantee. I'm like, I, how could I possibly guarantee something? It's not mine. Um, you know, and, and, and, and Ben was the maverick and I, and somebody introduced, put down enough cash, he made a connection. He's like, who's Travis? Travis Ackerman. It was Travis Ackerman and uh, uh, realtor. A sharp guy who was Travis. Yeah. And, and uh, he said, Hey, I got somebody you should talk to. It was funny cuz he showed up in our office, Ben and another guy, and. He showed up in the office and, and we started talking and, and we both kind of had this bromance going, I'm like, how? After we talked for about 20 minutes, uh, I'm like, how many have you and I not been best friends for the last 15
Ben:
years? Is this a stepbrothers moment? You know? Yeah. We used to become best friends. Yeah.
Dudley:
Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was weird. Um, and we are best friends, so Yeah. Uh, we, um, you know, that kind of melded together and we, we have a lot of similar interests, not just the firearms and liberty side of things, so, yeah. Fair. So, bourbon, right? Beer. Yep. Uh,
Curt:
I've got beer in the fridge too if we need it, but,
Dudley:
yep. I mean, we kind of graduated to bourbon now as our majority, um, but yeah. Um, but I'm, you know, being a beer snob is, is still a good thing. Uh, so I mean, people always ask me Why you're a gun guy, a conservative, why don't you drink Budweiser? I'm like, I live in Northern Colorado. It's to drink. Coors in northern Colorado is like living in the Bordeaux region of France and drinking boons farm Okay.
Curt:
I mean, that doesn't make any sense. You know. I will, I'll throw it down with a banquet beer once in a while, just. Never, ever college fighting words for Dudley. No. Those are
Dudley:
fighting words. Yeah. Some of my staff troll me when we have
Curt:
things, parties a little more lightly, uh, which is maybe why I can, you know, hang out with You'll live longer. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Dudley:
So I get, I get wound up on, around the axle on that
Curt:
stuff. Talk to me about, um, like what were those other things that you guys resonated about? Like, well, we're both
Dudley:
believers. We both believe in Jesus Christ and watch out.
Curt:
Um, I'll look, if then spills his bourbon on my couch, then you will have that in common. Yeah. Yeah. let's just do it. Um,
Dudley:
and we have, uh, uh, um, I don't know. Um, we don't take ourselves too seriously. Yeah. Um, uh, but, you know, the, the liberty side of being pretty concerned about the world and, and the direction Colorado's headed. Yeah. Um, very much in common. Yeah. And so, um, uh, you know, I mean, we don't, we both love cars and, um, I like it. Yeah. Both fast cars and I dunno, pretty much anything. Yeah. And, and we'd love shooting together, so, uh, ah, yeah. Do a
Curt:
lot of that. Fair enough. Yeah. There's
Ben:
just, uh, you know, those friends you have that it's just, it's not much effort. Yeah. Yeah. To just
Curt:
have a good friendship with, it's easy right away. And if there's five years apart, then it's easy the very next day. Always. Yeah. Yep. Right? Yep. Yeah. Have a few more.
Dudley:
Yeah. And we, and we. Um, I I think we both recognized that right away. We were like, now I'm older. Um, I'm 57 so I'm a little bit older than, yeah.
Curt:
Than Ben and older than me even. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine that. So I wanna go back, um, to like, hear about Dudley, cuz we kind of heard Ben's career journey in that episode six. If you wanna learn more. My, my favorite part, uh, from that, from you Ben, was your, you know, life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Mm-hmm. and your kind of ranking scale there. I'm sure Dudley, you've resonate with that if you go back and listen. But, um, I want to like learn about the founding of a gun owners organization, you know, starting with, uh, Rocky Mountain Gun Owners and like the why and like the how And, uh, if you don't mind, let's, I'd like to jump in the time machine and go back there. Yeah. You were CSU grad, you were from, where did you come from? I'm
Dudley:
actually one credit short
Curt:
and csu. Oh, not a grad. Oh. Literally one credit. I'm gonna totally judge you now. I know dropout. I know. That's okay. I flunk, my Berman's gone already, but I think I got a lighter report than you guys. Mm-hmm.
Dudley:
Um, here, I'll, I'll catch up with you. Okay. So I, so actually, um, I was hired by, uh, US Senator Bill Armstrong. Hmm. Uh, while I was in college, I was college Republican state chairman and, and I was hired to, uh, fill a position with him and. And did that in, uh, uh, in 1989. And I was, this snot knows kid out representing the, the senior US Senator from Colorado. Yeah. And, um, and I And how did that happen, Armstrong? Well, I mean, uh, I had a lot of political experience already. Yeah. Um, working in politics. But did
Curt:
you grow up that way? Were your family involved? Like tell me where you came from.
Dudley:
Um, I grew up in, uh, well overseas and then in, um, my dad was military to engineer military. Oh, okay. And, uh, we were actually living in Triple E Libya when I was born. Wow. Came back to have me, my mom came back to Wyoming to have me. Uh, I went to high school in Spearfish, South Dakota. North North end of the Black Hills. Just went through Spearfish. Okay. Um, who had a massive snowstorm last week.
Curt:
Massive. We followed it up there and stayed in North Dakota for the holiday. For Christmas. Yeah. Oh, it's rough.
Dudley:
But, but, uh, Uh, came to school here and, and, um, and, and basically when CSU was the number two party school in the nation, that
Curt:
was your reasoning. Yes. Um, well, and it was like coming from the Black Hills, it's like the closest cool place to go.
Dudley:
It is. Yeah. But I have always loved Colorado. I've, I've skied my whole life. Yeah. Cool. And so, um, um, and then got involved in politics and, and, and stayed. And I, I, since I left South Dakota, I've never lived anywhere else. Hmm. And I always refused to move to DC but, uh, I worked for Bill Armstrong who, um, I might add, had the most conservative voting record of any US Senator, including Jesse Helms, um, in, in his last, uh, 10 years in the US Senate. Um, he was, he was a pretty rock solid conservative and, um, worked for him then worked for the Colorado legislature down the state capitol, had an office in the state capital. And, um, I was the kind of the consultant for, and media advisor for the house Republicans. Wow. And so you had like a
Curt:
communications background and that was just what you were good at, kind of ultimately? Yeah. Yeah.
Dudley:
Um, I really didn't have any, any great communications background I can write. Yeah. Um, and so, um, um, and, and did that job for the house Republicans and, and then got involved, uh, with some ver very conservative, uh, groups within the Republican party, uh, the National Right to Work Committee, uh, which seeks to stop forced unionism. Yeah. Um, and, uh, a number of other, um, con conservative conspiracies. And, uh, we, and uh, and then I, I was asked, uh, I mean, I was always very passionate about guns, grew up hunting birds and shooting and stuff in South Dakota. But, uh, uh, I kind of looking at getting involved and I started watching as, as the NRA had, um, was giving a ratings, like after dinner mins to politicians who voted like them. Yeah. Right. And, and like this is wrong. And, uh, started getting involved. And I was actually a contract lobbyist for the state affiliated of the NRA for about year and a half. Okay. And, um,
Curt:
you're like this, a bunch of hosers. Yeah. And
Dudley:
that was Hosers. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Uh, I actually, um, and I refused that year at 1993, I refused a job with the NRA and uh, and then um, in 96 I started Rocky Mountain Gun Owners. Okay. and it was tough, you know, obviously you're starting from scratching, was it a membership organization? Yeah, it's a, it, it, again, it's 5 0 1 membership organization that, that, uh, people, um, and so it was advocacy,
Curt:
volunteer
Dudley:
donates and you advocate in the legislature. Right. And remember this is Colorado when we had a may issue concealed carry loss. So sheriffs could or could not issue you permits. Mm. LaMer County was an interesting part of that because, uh, the existing Republican sheriff here, uh, Richard Shockley, um, had only issued three permits and they were all had big donors of his. Oh gosh. And, um, and uh, we played a role in kicking him out of office, uh, in 1996 and um, 94. And uh, um, he was, he was been a republican sheriff for 18 years. Wow. And, um, interesting. Yeah, he got
Curt:
booted. Ben, what were you doing in 1994? He was 12 years old. He was eating his boogers. He probably just started to learn how to shoot.
Ben:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably Man, 94
Dudley:
sound. Yeah. I mean, I, Kurt I've been a gun lobbyist now just short of 30 years. Interesting. And, um, and I don't, I'm writing a book now, um,
Curt:
slowly good at it. Yeah. Slowly. It's coloring book. Yeah. Yeah. You'll
Dudley:
use crayons. Um, uh, that's gonna be called Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist. So, Ooh. I'm gonna give stories about things that have happened. Um, everywhere from, um, telling, uh, being in a, a elevator with a sheriff who tried to bribe you with a concealed permit back in the 1995. Whoa. Who, by the way, uh, that sheriff was ended up in his, in the jail named after him. Hmm. Um, that's a long, that's a funny story. But, um, and, uh, all the way up to, uh, battles with Donald Trump. Mm-hmm. and, um, and I'm, I make no qualms about it. Yeah. I detest Donald Trump. Really? I wouldn't piss down his throat if his heart were on fire, And cuz I don't actually think he's a conservative and he's one of the most anti-gun presidents ever to sit in the
Curt:
White House. I didn't realize that. And he kept that pretty under wraps. Um, well, I mean, maybe not like visibly, but like it is, I think people were blind to it. It isn't something he was known for. Well, because the, the, the mass media didn't want to say anything nice about him, but they only could say nice things about violating gun rights and so, right. That's a good point. I didn't say nothing. That's a good point. Well,
Dudley:
it, it confuses their narrative, right? And, and the fact is, and Trump, of course, even his staff wanted desperately wanted to avoid that, but a number of'em quit. Um, so the pump stock ban was, was really a, a, a conspiracy between Donald Trump and, and the nra now. It wasn't very, it wasn't a very. Well hidden. They did. It was out in the open. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the saying goes, uh, the man with a reputation of an early riser can sleep until noon Um, and to those of us a little older, I just, it, it's easier to say it took Nixon to go to China. Yeah. You know, a Democrat can't go to China cuz he'd be called out, felt the communist. Right. But, um,
Curt:
but you know,
Dudley:
interesting. Nixon could do it. Yeah. Uh, cuz he was thought of as an anti-communist. Right. Uh, so, um, yeah, Trump got away with a lot and um, I could go on for hours about how Yeah. Disastrous he is. And I actually think he's even more disastrous now. Um, but Right. But, so I'm gonna do my very best to make sure he's not the nominee. I was, I've been a delegate to the, uh, 2012 and 2016 national conventions Okay. Republican national conventions. And in fact, I was on, um, committees Sure. Uh, the, uh, pre-committee. So that set, uh, policy platform and rules for those conventions. So I've done a lot of battle with both re MIT Romney's people and uh, Donald Trump's
Curt:
people. So Interesting. Yeah. So, um, I wanna bring us back to like getting something off the ground. You know, you're, uh, and I'll talk for a little bit so you can refill your bourbon if you want to, but you're like, you start this 5 0 1 membership organization and you know, I don't know if it takes. I have to think that it takes dozens and dozens and dozens of members before there's any kind of salary for Dudley to draw.
Dudley:
Yeah. Yeah. In fact, um, the first piece of mail and, and Rocky Mount Gunners was formed almost exclusively from direct mail. Okay. And in 1996, early late 96, early 97, um, I remember writing the piece of mail. I remember the state legislator who signed it. His name was State Representative Mark Pasco from Arvada. Mark's a good dude. Anyway, we, um, he signed the mail that's on, you know, the, from address, it says State Representative Mark Pasco. And then Okay. Our mailing address and, um, and that's kind of borrowing his status to speak, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, it's, it's, I don't know, think of, think of a movie star who advertises on TV for, for like retirees, uh, pensions or something like that. Right. You know,
Curt:
there are lots of them. Well, or like Governor POIs who signed your Colorado cashback gift this fall before the election. Yes.
Dudley:
So, you know, that those are the kind of things that you, you know, you, you borrow their status to speak and, and they're saying nice things about you. They can say nicer things about you than um, you know, and, and get people fired up. And, and of course, since he has a, a title, um, we were nobodys at the time. Yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, we did a mail piece and I remember putting it in trays and I had some decent lists I collected and put'em in the trays. And I, I remember I prayed about it and said, if this works, if it comes back, um, in big numbers, great. Then we know it's a going concern and we'll try and turn into growing concern. If not okay, then it doesn't. Yeah. And it did. Yeah. It came back in bushel baskets in Wow. And, um, and direct mail is really where. Um, we've been funded a lot of, a lot of our critics even still. Yeah. Oh yeah. A lot of our critics say, um, oh, they're just funded by the gun manufacturers. That's where they eat. I'm actually sitting on a couch, almost spilled bourbon on a couch next to a, the only gun manufacturer who's ever actually donated directly Yeah. To, to our,
Curt:
to our, we've
Ben:
only donated 40 billion. Uh,
Curt:
oh wait. Oh yeah. I was gonna say maybe what? A couple rifles and, uh, a
Dudley:
couple of chassis. Couple rifles. Some chassis. But I mean, interesting. Manufacturers don't give us money. They give the NRA money and, um, you'd
Curt:
be more of a grassroots style, I suppose.
Dudley:
Yeah, we are. And, and we wear the black hat. We're not interested in going to their cocktail parties, um, because we're just gonna break the China Right. So, um, you know, I've been to those cocktail parties. I used to be a part of the establishment. Yeah. They suck. There's, they're not fun. Yeah. Um, all people who hate each other are all patting each other on the back and saying how much they like each other. I'm like, you're all whinging. Um, I'd rather be out shooting or drinking. Good perpen.
Ben:
It's a really important thing to consider. Um, you're not owned by anybody. And that's what my, my experience both, uh, you know, you know, seeing you work professionally, but also being, you know, friends. Um, I, I can say that e dudley's like an an equal opportunity offender, unable, you know? And so, um, and, and so there's something that's, that's very freeing about that. And, and yes, it's, it's, as I've gotten to know Dudley Moore, it, it reminded me, and I've mentioned this to Dudley, uh, you know, a couple years ago that, that kind of the turning point for me when I saw Wayne LaPierre of the NRA shaking hands with Harry Reid in a photo in the NRA magazine that they, they sent out, I was a nra. I came, remember a lifetime member, 10 year member or whatever, you know, I think, I think I'm giving my$500 or my thousand dollars to, you know, fight, fight for the cause. Yeah. You like, and, and I open it up. Is that Harry Reid and Mary? Yeah. And he's shaking hands with Harry Reid because Dudley has the details. But I remember it had something to do with, um, that the NRA funded a shooting range in Nevada. No.
Dudley:
You know, wasn't it such like that? No. They lobbied the federal government to put 63 million of taxpayer money into a shooting range in Clark County. So there's a little bit
Ben:
more, yeah, a little bit more behind this. I just, I see this photo. And it's like you're shaking hands with the devil man, what in the world? And it was promoted like this. I got some of the devil's juices. And so they, so they, they being the NRA gave like a, I don't know if it was a rating or, or probe Harry Reid or Vote for Harry. He's a friend of,
Dudley:
of gun owners. Actually, Wayne LaPierre on video at that said he's a true champion of the Second Amendment. That, that was quote,
Ben:
that was kinda my red pill moment as far as the NRA is concerned. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I don't recall. It's probably like
Dudley:
2008. 2000, no, 2010 because 10 because remember, uh, Harry Reid had, um, I can really nerd out on this stuff cuz I know we, we don't have time today. But you don't. But Harry Reid was, Harry Reid, uh, only had one real challenge for the US Senate. And that was, I share an angle in 2010. So the NRA gave cover so that he survived.
Curt:
Oh, yep. Yeah. And who was, and, and when because he was too much of a wild card some place. No, they they just won. It was like a dirty deal, but they were wine. But you scratched my back. I'll scratch tears a little bit,
Dudley:
but, but he didn't. So what happened in 2012 af after the Newtown Connecticut shooting? Right. Um, Harry Reid led the Battle for gun Control on the US Senate floor in 2013. And, and then the NRA said, who whoop oops. Who Oh, who to thunk That would happen, right, Mike? Yeah. But they d they've done that everywhere. Um, you know, we don't have to have yet too much of a NRA bashing session. They're doing plenty of their own bashing right now themselves.
Curt:
So you've got this organization with, with some 60. five employees or whatever, or the, the pair of'em. Yeah. What did all those people do? You have people on the ground in various places at least you reference Yeah. Are they marketing people? Are they
Dudley:
you got, you have both political people out in the states. Okay. And you work in the state legislatures if you have followed the fact that, um, we now have 25 states with constitutional carry, no permit needed concealed. Carrie, as long as you're legally eligible to own a gun well and purchase a gun, you don't have to ask government permission to carry it. That's awesome. Um, we have 25
Curt:
states now. That's us. Is Colorado becoming one of those? Yeah. I actually How much, how much did you already drink Well, I took a concealed carry class, uh, with my wife some time ago. From whom? Um, it was, it was one of hoteling acquaintances. Oh, macra. Yeah, but it was before that was quite formal. Okay. It was one of his friends or something. Okay. He recommended it anyway. Uh, and it was a great class and stuff, and then I never followed through with getting the Yeah. Carrie, because in part, like, I feel like that would be a flag. Okay, this guy's got guns. Go get his guns. If there's ever a go get your guns time in Colorado. Have
you
Dudley:
ever bought a gun on pa? Um, from a store? I never have. Okay. Well, well there you go. Well, now, but you just advertise.
Curt:
You have guns. I don't have a delete. I said I have a gun. I lost them all in a boating accident. I just said I didn't want to have my so many boats for my so many accidents that I don't have. I mean, those lakes have gotta be They've gotta be just like full. We should
Dudley:
start going scraping the lakes spin.
Curt:
Uh, so anyway, that was, that was my own weird like tinfoil hat kind of thing as it relates. And I feel like I have the right to carry a gun. I do. A few years ago.
Ben:
Want to. Well, you do. Were crazy. You still do.
Dudley:
You're probably right. You can, you could, you can open Carrie. I've always a You can still open carry in most parts of Colorado, is that right? Yeah, you can open carry pistol. In fact, you can have a concealed handgun or a concealed AR 15 in, in your car right now. No permit
Curt:
needed long. It's in a case or something right? Or nothing? Nope. Nope.
Ben:
It's extension of your
Curt:
personal
Dudley:
No. Promise. No, it's because, it's because the, the law says you have the ability to carry a gun in your. And it shall not be considered concealed. Um, essentially. Right. So, so I'm not, we wrote that into the law i, in, in 2003. And to call out a shall issue law, I would like to
Curt:
have my pistol in my, I don't have a pistol, but if I had a pistol, I would like to have it in my car. Yes. Yeah, exactly. If you had a black
Ben:
Glock
Dudley:
grip with a 33 round magazine, um, you, you actually, yeah. You shouldn't, you shouldn't carry a handgun in your car. You should carry an assault rifle, so, okay. There's no, no, there's no reason to get in a gunfight with a handgun unless that's the only thing you
Curt:
have. Well, I just feel like in the confined space of a car, you're like fucking around with an assault rifle. Fair enough. Banging industry, short rifle. But if there's somebody, I don't know, I feel like in the, you know, 10 to 40 feet, if I've got a nine round clip, I can handle clip. Lot of threat threats. You said clip drink Um, fair enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, magazine, magazine, magazine, whatever, whatever. Same difference. This is my weapon, and this is my We're fighting. This is
Ben:
for fun. Did you know what I meant? Okay, good. Yeah, yeah.
Curt:
There you go. I know, I know. Gun, gun queers. I get a good,
Dudley:
a good friend. A good friend in Congress, he says, and he's, he's a gun nerd. And as you might imagine, I'm a gun
Curt:
nerd. And so, yeah. And we'll have a gun section
Dudley:
here of this. Yeah. So, and he, he's, and, uh, his name is Thomas Massey. And Thomas is like, yeah, Thomas and I are like, he's like, you know, du. We're not just nerds, we're gun queers. I'm like, yay. You're probably right. We're a little
Curt:
queer for guns. I wonder, does that fit into the lgbtq? Yes, it does. Plus, yes. Plus yes. I'm claiming
Dudley:
protected status.
Curt:
Yes. So, um, by the way, at this stage in your life when you started, uh, Rocky Mountain Gun Owners and did this mailer, got a pretty good bushel basket response. Are you a married guy already? Do you have kids? Do you have income? Do you have like expenses? Yeah,
Dudley:
I was, I was married, but um, but didn't have, uh, I mean, I was doing, I had to do other political consulting. There was no way around
Curt:
it. You were kind of a hustle in general doing stuff Yeah, yeah. To make money
Dudley:
and, um, and worked, yeah. Worked in politics. That's where my skills were. Mm-hmm. Um, I was also doing some weapons training. Hmm. Uh, I used to do weapons familiarization courses with a friend of mine. Um, we were teaching, he was bringing out, um, special forces spec war troops out to a ranch of his, and, and we were training them in, in, uh, kind of exotic machine guns from Russia and all around the world that he owned. Interesting. Um, that they were likely to run into. Yeah. And, and, but you know, frankly, they don't, we don't have them in the US arsenal, and so they were like, they wanted those guys to know what it was. Yeah. And so, so I used to do a lot of that, a lot of help. Uh, with that. That really got, got me some good experience. I didn't serve in the military, so, um, that's where I learned to shoot machine guns. and now I have a ffl, uh, with a, what they call a, a basically a licensed own machine, guns. Oh. And
Curt:
um, so I own quite a few. See, I think there should be a super license, uh, for driving. Like it feels really unfair to me that. With my driving abilities and age and capabilities that I have to abide by the same rules as an 85 year old lady that like, can barely make a right-hand turn. You know what, I can totally get behind this up to like a point 0.2 for DUIs, 20 miles an hour. Speed limit Dudley. Yeah, let's get this in there. Yeah. Freedom super license.
Dudley:
Hey, I, I mean, I did venture a number of years ago in 2018. I, I did venture out of concealed handguns and firearms issues to pass, uh, a, a law to allow
Curt:
nice switch
Dudley:
blades. Nice. So Colorado, this used to be a felony to, to possess this on your, on your person. And in 2018 they're illegal.
Curt:
Nice. So job. Yeah. Yeah. So he's he's pretty legit. He's due for a new Cause this is what he's saying. Yeah. Due for super license. How, how much
Dudley:
money is there? I'm a
Curt:
contract lobbyist. I think there would be a lot of people that would chip in for super license. Go to the Porsche dealer. You could do it. Yeah. All the BMW go say, Hey
Dudley:
look, I'll have that as an add-on when they, someone buys a really nice car. Right. Um, you just add a fee onto my lobbying fee.
Curt:
Yeah. Well, and if you, you might get it through Congress if you like, put like$500 to the general fund for Polish to spend as he wants to. No, no, no.
Dudley:
State legislature. Now where you really want it is in Wyoming. Maybe that's where you want the, the special license in Wyoming. It's long, straight. Oh my gosh.
Curt:
Yeah. Great. Tis So Dudley, I deviated. I took us off the trail a little bit. Yeah, yeah. You started telling me about people in the state, legislatures and stuff. And then like, do you just have people stuffing envelopes and stuff? Or communications? Like, tell me about the structure just a little bit about like what a 60 person organization Yeah. That does what you do. What do they all do? Well, I mean, we
Dudley:
have marketing people. Um, we
Curt:
have, uh, they're on the Facebooks and the LinkedIns and stuff. Well,
Dudley:
those are, uh, that we have social media people email. Yes. Email, direct mail. Um, you gotta manage, uh, sending out a, yeah. Somewhere in the order of, like, in 2021, I think we saw, sent out something like 30 million pieces of mail. Hmm. Um, whoa. Yeah. You're
Curt:
killing the trees, man. Yeah. Well, so goes, yes. They grow, they're, yeah.
Dudley:
Say the renewable resource man, Um, so we,
Curt:
um, thanks for trick keeping the paper companies in business Yeah. Is what I meant to say. Yeah. So
Dudley:
we, uh, um, they have marketing. We have marketing staff who do, for instance, we have a video team. Um, I'm sure we publish videos. Uh, you know, if there are any lefties listening to this, I'm sure there are. Um, we can trigger them by talking about the fact that we had Kyle Rittenhouse out here, uh, in October. Nice. And, um, enjoying some, shooting our machine guns and flying in a helicopter and playing around. Um, yeah, that got'em
Curt:
all, all woke. I listen to, uh, to him describing that whole situation on a, like two or three different podcasts. Yeah. And like, it's, no wonder the media dropped that topic in a hot minute. Once, once that came out, it was like a Yeah, yeah. A railroad into a,
Dudley:
he's just a young kid. Right. And, you know, I mean, I, I laugh because he's like a year and a half older than my son. Right. And, uh, yeah. Nice kid. He's pretty
Curt:
well spoken.
Dudley:
Yeah, he is. And, and, um, kinda been forced
Ben:
to grow up, you know,
Dudley:
he's actually right. He's actually staying at our place at, uh, at. Oh, good. Our vrbo, so he's gonna be on our shot show booth there. Go. Um, uh, but, um, we have, um, of course we have a lot of administrative staff. You can't have that many people without having accounting. Yeah. And hr. Hr, you
Ben:
got
Curt:
insurance to deal with. Are you day-to-day operation? You have like business COO or something duly so that like this stuff can kind of happen without you? Yeah, probably
Ben:
structurally, yes. Uh, if like Phil, but because it's a not-for-profit, it doesn't necessarily have the same titles, but
Dudley:
effectively, yes. I, I mean I have, I now have, I have three vice presidents, all rural sharp guys. Okay. And who cover the different areas of it? Um, I'm trying to, uh, as I'm getting a little older, uh, I'm trying to let them handle all that's
Curt:
integral to all the
Dudley:
things. Yes. And for me to try and do the things that, uh, you know, 40, 50,000 foot level. So I pretty much am in an airplane a lot. I, I fly about a hundred thousand miles a year. Wow. Um, and I go to see big donors and then pretty much US senators. I don't, don't really talk to members of the house except for some, a few of the really good guys. I don't, there's no reason. It's just
Curt:
peons big donor. There's members of the house. They're one. They're one. And right here on the local experience podcast
Dudley:
1 430 fifth of one half of one third of the federal government, Whoopie do. Oh man. Are you using your bully pulpit? Okay, great. Um, Um, but uh, yeah, I do do a lot of travel. I had it, it mean very interesting one this fall where I literally was traveling to meet at a, a big donor in, uh, Nevada who, uh, manufactures weapons and, and mostly machine guns and sells'em to foreign countries and such. Um, and while we were at the meeting, he said, you're gonna have to excuse me, I have to go talk to these people. The Ukrainian military at Attache is here in the building, and they wanted to, uh,
Curt:
I just saw your Instagram post on that today. Yeah. They
Dudley:
wanted to talk to
Curt:
whoever can sell em the big guns, and they wanted
Dudley:
to, they, they were there to look at the same guns I was looking at. So, um, mark 19 grenade launchers and 50 cow machine guns, but, uh, uh, but anyway, that's, I I have some interesting, um, meetings. I mean, it's not, it's, it's not boring. Uh, my, my, the weirdest single day I ever had in my life, um, was with a donor and one of his friends walked in and it was the King of Spain, I'm not
Curt:
kidding you. And they said, you gotta, this is not the punchline. Yeah, yeah.
Dudley:
He call you and his title is your, you address him as your majesty. I'm like, Yeah. You know what? I'm pretty sure I'm gonna use that every time I talk to him, because where else do you get to use your majesty? Right. And
Curt:
not, not, I asked my wife, SAR use that, and she just, she didn't like that. It doesn't work. Huh. Okay. Does not, Ben, I wanna get you back in the conversation a little bit. Talk to me about your relationship with guns. Yeah. Like where did that, were you raised that way, if you will? Hunting and shooting and whatever? No, no hunting.
Ben:
No shooting. Uh, you have an older
Curt:
brother, I remember. Yeah. Older
Ben:
brother. Uh, he's a surgeon now. And,
Curt:
uh, you know, so he doesn't have guns, or he does? No, he
Ben:
does. Uh, in fact, uh, he's, he's an avid hunter and Okay. Quite a good hunter. Um, and, uh, he, he, gosh, I bet if he could go every weekend, he would. He lives up in Cheyenne. Yeah. Good guy. And then, uh, but yeah, no, my father's a, a professor of civil engineer here in Fort Collins, and just Good dude. And yeah, I bet your dad. Yeah.
Curt:
So he came to a Matthews house event with us. Yeah, right. Once or twice. Yeah. Yeah. You met him.
Ben:
So, um, uh, I was six years old when my grandfather in Louisiana handed me a single shot, 22 rifle. Mm-hmm. and took us out, uh, to an old military base, you know, decommissioned, you know, I don't know, 50 years prior or something like that. And so we drove out into the woods and, uh, and I remember him taking a, a ballpoint pen, like a Bic pen. Okay. And he stuck it in the sand sticking up. And I don't know, maybe. 25 50, you know, feet away. Yeah. I, I don't know, but you know, just enough for a six year old. Right. And with little Iron sights, he gave me one bullet and stuck it in there, and he said, okay, shoot the pen. And I shot the pen in half. Wow. I will, you know, uh, there's certain experiences in your life that you'd never forget. Yeah. I will never forget that moment. So, uh, thank you granddad. Uh, that was kind of the beginning, uh, being six years old and that, and that was just this intrigue with, with rifles. Yeah. Uh, as well and, and maybe particularly now, uh, but at the time, you know, maybe not realizing, wow, I'm over here and I'm able to shoot this tiny thing, I thing over there, over there, and I could do it over and over and over again. It's just, I don't know, it's just fun, you know? It's, it's mechanics. I
Curt:
just told a story of from when I was about five, my first time, uh, making a 22 shell go off and it was behind my parents' house, and I, I knew it went bang somehow or whatever, so I smashed it with a rock Oh, And it went bang, and it shot the house, like went right past me and shot the house. And I was like, I'm lucky that didn't go through my tummy. Yeah. Uh, and I, anyway, I told that story to my mom and my sister over the weekend, last weekend, and they're like, that's what that was. Yeah. That was the last, that was the first and last time I did that experiment. Yeah. No. So, uh,
Ben:
yeah, six years old. Um, that's when that started. And then, uh, uh, dear friend of mine, Landon Lynch, as we were growing up, you know, I was probably, I don't know, we were probably 12 years old or something like that. And it was his father, Doug Lynch, Doug for listening. Thank you. Uh, Doug that took us out shooting. Yeah. And, uh, Doug now works at, at Burris, which is, uh,
Dudley:
a really, yeah. Wow. I haven't heard this
Ben:
story. Yeah. So, uh, Doug works at Burris, used to be a, you know, tech guy and, uh, there scope manufacturer in gre, steel manufacturer. Yep. In Greeley. Yeah. Burris and Steiner are, are owned by, uh, Beretta, but they're, you know, um, headquarters there. Greeley. At least the Burris. Divisionist. Anyway, um, and Doug. He would reload his own ammo, and I'd never heard of that before. Here I am, you know, 12 years old, and he would take us down to his basement and what are these machines and these contraptions? And, and he just got into it. And I love the minutia, I love the mechanics. And so, yeah. You know, you know, Dudley and I talk about, you know, sharing the love of guns and, and of cars and these sorts of things. There's these something,
Curt:
you know, but it's more than that. Like I love, yeah. I love shooting guns. I think it's super cool. I'm annoyed by cleaning guns. I don't want to take them apart and put'em back together, but you probably do. But
Ben:
yeah, you love motorcycles. There's something about Yeah, the, the mechanics of, of, of seeing all of these materials come together in such a way that it, that it causes some kind of, you know, kinetic, you know, energy or, or, or movement or Yeah. You know, I can, I can put all these stationary things together and then they become a, a motion driven thing with energy and, and, and so, um, it just, it amazed me that he would make his own ammunition and then we would take it out and we'd shoot it and it was really accurate. And there were these machines and contraptions and bullets and powder and primers, the whole thing. And so that, that sort of was, was the next catalyst. See it like the oh man. And, um, I will never forget he had this beloved Kimber 1911 pistol. Mm-hmm. and it was his baby. And, uh, I'll, I'll fast forward about 10 years later, he actually sold me that gun. He knew like so much. So to this day, I have Doug's Kimber, 1911. That's, that's, uh, it's one of my babies. But anyway. That's cool. Um, and it was, it was that shooting with Doug and my friend Landon that, uh, that really just, just kind of solidified my, my desire and enjoyment of this sport. Uh, you know, I didn't think
Curt:
of it from, you were kind of adopted in a shooting
Ben:
in a way. Yeah. I didn't think of it from a political standpoint or that it meant anything. I just, it's a mechanical thing. It's fun. It's loud. Yeah. Uh, and I enjoy it. And that was it. Do you,
Dudley:
do you ever think that our society has lost, um, some of the permanence? Very few people live on the land that they grew up on. Mm-hmm. they live in the town they grew up in, and, you know, we can all give the rationalization, well, why do we really need to? Um, yes, I'll take some of that. Okay. Now that we're at Weller 1 0 7, Weller 1 0 7, anti 1 0 7. Yes. Oh my gosh. That's just a little bit. Yeah, baby. Uh, we kind of lost that. And, um, and I'm, I'm not a traditionalist in that respect, but I. Mm. I do think we've missed that. And that's why firearms hand me our great family heirlooms. Mm. Because you know, grandpa, you know, shot this shotgun. Yeah. Yeah. And he taught me how to shoot on this shotgun and, or, you know, it's tough to keep cars, right? Yeah. I mean that's, yeah.
Curt:
You gonna keep, keep
Dudley:
em a long time. Keep grandpa's 57 Chevy. Right.
Curt:
Um, but don't really have, get
Dudley:
a place in the garage. That's a pretty expensive proposition. Yeah. Um, so I always like, encourage that, uh, to people. I said, don't, you know, they come to me and say, I need to get rid of this. I inherited 50 guns. Like Right. Don't, I'm my gas sell. Some of them, but unless you need them money if you don't want'em. But, but my gosh, don't get rid of family heirlooms. There's
Ben:
something fun about that. Now I'm, you're exactly right. I have my first 1911 pistol. Yeah. And so most guys on the 21st birthday, they go out and they have a beer. Right. You know, with my friends. Yeah. And I went to Sportsman's Warehouse, it was my 21st birthday, and I was, I was knocking on the door. It was like 7 59, 8 o'clock the door's open. I walk in, I knew exactly what I wanted. I bought a stainless steel 19 11 45. I have it to this day.
Curt:
This was before you got the Kimber? Yeah.
Ben:
Yes. How many 1911 do you have? Uh, I think nine. Um, so I, I kind of have a problem. I, I really. Guys are gonna listen to us and give us only nine. You know,
Curt:
if you can count the number of guns you have, you have on your fingers, you don't have enough. Yeah, too few. So I've got a T-shirt that says that actually that, uh, I wear when I have to go to a liberal event of some sort. Yeah.
Ben:
So, um, yeah. And, and, and, and it is fun. And, and Dudley to your point, like now I share that with my, it was, it was my eight year old was just asking me about something cuz he was building a little Lego, you know? Yeah. And um, and I was able to show him my first 1911 and I said, buddy, this is my first one. Yeah. I've sold other guns. I that I will never sell this one. Yeah. You know, you know, maybe it's yours or your brothers one. Right. You know, when I passed. And so, um, that was, that, that's, that's fun to, to pass on. Um, but yeah, maybe back to the, back to your question then, then how did I, how did I get into this? And so, uh, uh, just, just kinda kept buying firearms and you know, you get, pistols are interesting and then you start shooting, you know, ar fifteens and those are interesting. And then, and then for me, I found this thing called a precision long-range rifle. A bolt action rifle. Yeah. And this was like late two thousands. Gotcha. You know, kind of that, that world,
Curt:
that's your real passion.
Ben:
Yeah, it is. It is my passion. And, uh,
Curt:
because that's like the Penn ultimate almost. It's like the sniper Yeah. Style opportunity or whatever. Yeah. But it's not like, and it's not like you're sniping, you're not taking out lives. You're just showing that, hey, from 740 yards, I can put a small group in this. With this gut.
Ben:
It's a good point. I'm glad actually you say that we refer to, uh, and I have no military background. My, my business partners do on K R G and, and, uh, you know, they, they, you know, corrected me back in the day. A sniper is, is the person, you know, who actually has to go hunt people. And, and I hope Yeah. That never, ever happens to me. Uh, and but the tool is a precision rifle, right? Yeah. And so, um, yeah. And so I, I, I fell in love with these precision rifles and it was just, it's fun and it's interesting and, and as you mentioned, the skillset is challenging. It's like playing a guitar and not having fret buzz, right. You know, like it's difficult to, to shoot seven, 800, you know, 900 yards consistently and, and, um, and over and over and in different situations. Yeah. It, there is a skillset to it, of course. Just like a great guitar, you know, that guitar's gonna sound a little better if it's a, if it's a quality built instrument, you know, and a, a good precision rifle is, is gonna shoot a little more consistent if it's a, yeah. If it's a quality built, you know, precision tool, but it's up to the, the shooter. And that's interesting to me. And so that's where actually I met the guys from K rrg. Mm. And this is about 2009. And so, um, believe it or not, I met Justin Juarez, who's, uh, the primary owner and Okay. And founder of Yeah. Of Kinetic Research Group. Um, it's two, about 2009. And there was a website, a local website, Dudley knows as well, uh, called the Snipers Hide. Okay. Snipers Hide is, uh, started by this guy, Frank Galley, I think was Frank. A. Background. Marine Sniper. Yeah. Yeah. Marine Scout Sniper. Um, yeah, good guy, local guy, and, uh, very well known in this community. And, um, he started this forum, which is basically just a bunch of people yelling at each other about, you know, whose rifle's better and who knows more about, you know, precision shooting But that's, that's kind of where I learned, you know, is just reading all these guys information. Mm-hmm. It was just this,
Curt:
it was a, like I've done with motorcycles, frankly. Yes. Like, I consumed every cycle world from 19 90, 89 or 91 or something like that up through a few years ago. Every time,
Ben:
you know? Yeah. And so for guys, like, you know, and, and my my age, my generation of 40 and, you know, um, at the time, like that was the place to find information. Yes. With snipers, hide and forums online on the internet. So, um, there was this guy, Justin, and he posts that he is making a, a rifle stock. And, uh, and I just, outta nowhere, I sent him a message and, and turns out he was in Colorado. I said, Hey, I'm in Colorado. I'll, I'll shoot that thing for you. You know, you're kind of an idiot. Like, I want something free. Can I
Curt:
shoot? You're done, I'll give you some free exposure.
Ben:
Yeah, yeah. Free exposure, right? Yeah. Worth nothing. Anyway. And
Curt:
um, and were you competing
Ben:
or something like that? No, no. He was just, he was online. He said, I'm making this, this, you know, this new stock. We call him a chassis. Want some feedback? Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I just kind of, that, that's how it started. And then, uh, and then another mutual friend, uh, kind of connected us and turns out he was in Longmont up, up here in the Fort Collins area. And, uh, And, uh, ended up shooting some guns together and we just stayed in touch. We stayed, uh, you know, kind of, uh, acquaintances, close acquaintances. And then, uh, after, uh, after the, the gun law issues here in Colorado in 2012, he left and we just, you know, we call every, you know, couple, I don't know, couple six months or something like that, just connect. Um, and so yeah, there's an opportunity. He said, Hey, you know, we like ya, uh, uh, those guys think he's a nerdy banker type guy. So it was actually he, his brother and his, his good friend John, uh, so Justin Vincent John started the company. They're all, uh, army SF guys and, uh, with various sniper backgrounds, actual, you know, the real deal. Right, right. And, and me a banker, you know, at the time and they said, Hey, we, we can use a little, you know, help on the finance side. Just kind of, you know, business perspective and, and, um, We don't hate you,
Curt:
That was kind, kind, it. We, we kind of trust you. Yeah. Which is unusual for a banker. Yeah.
Ben:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. How'd that happen? So, um, I lied to him a lot. That's how it works. No. Um, and so, uh, we, we just became friends and, um, I I, I bought into the company back then again, I 2013, 2014. So somewhere in that whatever, in that rage. And, um, uh, yeah, we've just been, been friends and business,
Curt:
uh, partners since Were you acquainted with Dudley? So before that, what did you guys acquainted? 17.
Ben:
17. I was working at Advantage Bank, uh, here in Fort Collins. And, uh, yeah. And
Curt:
more and more acquainted because of your involvement with the industry through K RRG and stuff like that, right? Yeah. Knowing the challenge. Yeah. So
Ben:
Travis is like, Hey, you've gotta meet this guy that I'm trying to help find a building. Uh, and, and you know, it's a little, little unique situation. Can you help financing? And you know, a banker, your answer's always Yes, of course. Until you find out all about it, you know? Uh, and so yeah, we went over and, and met Dudley and, and person. Same thing. You know, I left, I was like, why are we not friends? I don't, we'll have to be friends here. Yeah. Yeah. Just decided I like it. So that's where we met. Yeah. 2000. Yeah. Was this 17 and now,
Dudley:
and then last night. Progressed that to last night and we're trying to figure out a European river cruise to take our
Curt:
wives off out with our wives and stuff. So fun. It's fun, you know.
Ben:
Yeah. I, I tell Dougy, I'm like, I don't think my wife wants to do that. I ask Katie, She's like, that sounds amazing. I like, wow. I
Curt:
don't know my wife very well. She just wants to hang out with her. Nevermind actually, what's your wife's name? She's amazing. Cindy. Cindy. Hey, Cindy. Shout out. Hope you listen,
Ben:
So anyway, that's, that's uh, how I, I got to where I am and, and just been
Curt:
definitly. Same question for you. Like, did you hunt and fish and do stuff like you were in, where were you again? Italy, north C Libya. Well, uh, well,
Dudley:
yeah, at first, but not Germany. Born there
Curt:
Germany. And, but really you can't shoot in any of these places really.
Dudley:
Well, you can, but uh, now as a kid they're all AK 40 sevens. That's, I was in, uh, VSBA, uh, west Germany at, uh, uh, which is where we went during the Arabis Israeli war, and, uh, and then came back to the States and, but I grew up in northern, into the Black
Curt:
Hills. Right. And, and so when by the, the time you were a teenager and stuff you were doing that
Dudley:
I, I've been a bird hunter my whole life and fair. Um, I don't really didn't have any formal training until, frankly, until after college. Yeah. So, uh, interesting. But you know, when all my, when, when everybody in college went to Mo Lawn for spring break. Yeah. I went up to the mountains, um, with my friends and camped and blew stuff up and shot tons. And I
Curt:
like it and drank beer. We, uh, My, my experience was, um, gopher hunting. Oh, 13 line ground squirrels. You mean Prairie rats? Prairie rats, I guess. Yeah. Prairie Dog. Yeah. Certs, soak. They're little tiny things compared to prairie dogs. I mean, they're, they're just, you know, the size of this might be be their body. Oh, really? Yeah. Little guy. Oh, so real gophers. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Little tiny. They're 13 line ground squirrels up in North Dakota. Right. And we'd drive around the pastures and there's all these gopher holes and stuff, and you, you could whistle'em out, like they'd look up to see what's making that weird noise, and then you shoot'em Um, but they're really skinny and it's hard to get right close to'em. And so when I took a class in college, I took a, a fiat credit class, a rifle marksmanship in the basement of one of the That's right. The buildings at North Dakota State. Yeah. Oh, okay. And, uh, I was crushing everybody because I've been shooting gophers since I was 11 or something like that. Mm-hmm. So anyway, I digress. Memory, small targets. Small targets, makes good shooting. Yeah. Um, so true. I guess we kind of covered a lot of the journey stuff and what you do. Tell me more about Naer as appropriate or what's coming down the pike right now. Like what, what's the current event? Yeah, let's get the, we just cut a video
Dudley:
that's, uh, one active probably while we've been talking. We published on our YouTube channel, which is a growing, uh, concern. Uh, um,
Curt:
get that Noah's mill there. Yeah. We,
Dudley:
uh, we went, um, we just found out yesterday that the Supreme Court granted. Is going to hear another New York case. And because if you recall this summer, last summer when the brewing decision was, was issued, and, and Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas said, um, you gotta show text history and tradition of gun control. Otherwise it's just not valid. Yeah. I remember that secondment protects it. And then New York passed a, a pretty bad, uh, response immediately and um, and basically flew the bird at, at Clarence Thomas. Oh. And um, so all of us rookie mistake right there. Yeah. All of us have been wondering when is that going to Yeah. Is what's gonna happen is this, you know, what happens if like California just keeps defying the
Curt:
Supreme Court, right?
Dudley:
And, and even cynically, a lot of gun owners are very worried about that. They're like, this might not bode well people, they'll just ignore the Supreme Court. Well yesterday, um, the Supreme Court said, um, yeah, we're gonna rehear that and I think what they're gonna do is pull down New York's pants and paddle their ass. And I, if that happens, we are having a watch party for that. Um, cuz. Because I be
Curt:
honest, Kirk, the metaphor Yeah. The too strong. I
Dudley:
know. The, the, the optics are great. The, the, the Second amendment and the, and the second amendment of the Constitution in the Bill of Rights is just a piece of paper in archives in Washington DC it hasn't done crap. Okay. Now, I was quoted in, in the, the Chicago McDonald case back many years ago. Um, our brief was, and, and it really, eh, okay. But it never really stopped anything. Mm-hmm. My, my real litmus test is does it stop gun control from passing? Right. And, and, and being enacted. And it hasn't. And Colorado's a great case. In 2013, we passed a magazine ban, um, for extremely common magazines. Right. For greater than, greater than 15 rounds. And the state legislature passed it. Um, and I know
Curt:
some people with magazines greater than 15 rounds, and we lost, oh my gosh.
Dudley:
Let's get into that. So, so, and what happened was, what happened was, Um, the, they ignored the Second Amendment and, but Bruin changed all that. They, the Clarence Thomas's opinion on, on the Bruin decision ch this summer changed all of it, which is why we didn't right now have seven federal lawsuits. Mm. All the around. So you're
Curt:
feeling your oats right now? Oh yes. Like this has fueled your fires and ability to get stuff done at the state level. Even more so in, in
Dudley:
fact, we filed against the town of Superior, we filed a temporary restraining order mm-hmm. Against the town of Superior cuz they were trying to enact these gun controls and o Obama appointed judge granted it. Mm-hmm. So now res temporary restraining orders. Yeah. What do you apply temporary restraining orders to rapists, um, people who are, who are trying to do that Kill you. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I figured, okay, that's appropriate. They're trying to rape the Second Amendment, so we're gonna go up a tro
Ben:
maybe not equivalent, but the urgency is pretty close. The
Dudley:
urgency is there now. The great, um, so, um, now I'm sitting on a couch next to one of the plaintiffs against the state of Colorado. Yes. Okay. On the magazine ban. Ben is, is and, uh, and Travis Schwartz are the, are two of the plaintiffs against the state of Colorado on that magazine ban from 2013. We, we used the Bruin decision, brought it back into federal court this time, and are challenging the Colorado's Mag band. I don't know how it survives. Hmm. Now, now to business people, the business people are listening to this and they go, ah, I don't really care that much about guns. I'm never gonna have this. Yeah. But, uh, you know, I, I want tell
Curt:
you, you a lot about free speech though. And you should care about free. Do what they wanna
Dudley:
do. You should care about free speech and you should care about this. Colorado's economy is very much based on outdoor sports. A lot of it hunting, a huge amount of it, hunting. Uh, it brings an enormous amount of money into this state and, and, okay, I get it. The whole woke crowd, there's no fixing that. They've got a virtue signal all day long. But if you're a businessman, you don't want all those people who elk hunt every year. Those people who bring their, you know, their cousin and brother and stuff, and spend$10,000 in Colorado, you don't want them to not come.
Curt:
Agreed. And to me, it's more about the principle than it is about the, you know, it's like they came for the socialist, but I was not a socialist. They came for the, you know, street workers. But
Dudley:
Kurt, you gotta, I, I think you have to when you're, you're talking to a slightly different men, different group of people. I mean, if you're not a raving libertarian, a radical conservative, like, like Ben and I are certainly. Okay. Um, then why do I care? Yeah. Yeah. You got a different perspective. But I do want to say, if you're a businessman, you really should care too, because this is, this is about money coming into your state and people fleeing your state. If you go up to Cheyenne right now mm-hmm. Right. You go watch the, the, um, people fleeing Colorado and moving to Wyoming. Oh,
Curt:
that is, I built that property in Wyoming to just be like, I could own my business and live in Wyoming and come to Fort Collins a lot. We're 15 minutes away, hang out at my Airbnb from getting a seven and not have to increase. Right. Think about that. But,
Dudley:
but why are the vast majority of people who are looking, it's based on the gun issue. Yeah. I think that's, that's absolutely true. I mean, there's tax issues, there's expense, overall cost of living expenses, but a lot of it is
Curt:
the gun issue. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's some, I mean, there basic
Ben:
majority, and that's wrapped up even in just liberty based, you know? Yeah. General issues.
Curt:
That's what I would say is it's all liberty based. It's all about 600,000 lockdowns. It's about the mandatory vaccinations for state and medical employees. It's about a lot of those things as well. And, and yeah.
Ben:
It's, it's the least populated state is my understanding. I think there's only 600 and what, 50,000 people in the whole state. Yeah. Well, Alaska
Curt:
used to be less. Yeah,
Ben:
I think it is. is it okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perhaps so. Um, but the point is yeah, yeah. Less than a million people live in this state. There's not enough people to coalesce a government So like Right. Even when they, even when they have a government there, it's just, there's just not enough to, to do anything. And I think there's a lot of people that just really, you know, reside with that, you know, but I don't,
Dudley:
but I don't wanna miss the fact that there are refugees who are leaving Yeah. Solely because of the gun laws, for sure. Yeah. Case in point. Now, Colorado, the last election just happened in Colorado. Democrats in the house now have a veto proof majority in the Colorado
Curt:
House. Right. And, and a bunch of crazies and, yeah. Oh, like, it's not like it's a bunch of moderate Democrats. Oh, it's a bunch of super crazy. No, no. Wackadoos. Whackadoo. Yeah. And, and no offense to all the whackadoo Democrats out there, Yeah.
Dudley:
No, no offense if you're a blazing communist But, um, but these are, but the woke crowd is in charge. And, um, and in fact there was a, there was a meeting
Curt:
yesterday. It's gonna be interesting for Pullis to like be the one restraining the crazy. Yeah. How Yeah. Actually, instead of leading the crazy,
Dudley:
actually Jared Pullis has been one of the restrainers Yeah. Of
Curt:
the craziness over the last couple years of streaking him and a little bit, a little bit
Dudley:
on guns, tiny bit. And I'll give him credit for that. Um, that's why I think it was difficult. It would be very difficult to beat him is because he was in the middle ground there. But, but I'm, I'm a bit, um, unless we win these lawsuits. Frankly, I, I don't think any gun people, real hardcore gun people will live in this state anymore. Well, think about,
Ben:
I mean, you know, one of the reasons I I signed up for this is that, and for this, this podcast. For this organization, well, yes, yes. Of the lawsuit, uh, you know, my, myself and Travis Okay. Yeah. Are on there. Um, is, uh, and, and it's something that, that you just mentioned, uh, previously, Kurt, you said, you said, yeah, I've got friends where, and, and Yeah. We've got large capacity magazines. Well, that's fine. If we have large capacity magazines that are pre-and Right, right. I was, I was building ar fifteens in my ar 15 magazines from Magpole, cuz Magpole was here in Colorado outta Erie. Right. You know, there's kinda that local, you know, a, a business and you wanna support'em. And so all of us, we bought, you know, tens if not hundreds of magazines. Uh, I, I haven't even counted. I, I've got a fair amount of magazines and so I now cannot transfer those magazines to my sons. So I can, I can transfer the property rights issue so I can transfer, uh, my AR 15 over to my son. I cannot transfer the standard capacity magazine that goes in that AR 15 to my son. Therefore, by de facto rendering that gun useless. and restricting.
Curt:
Well, you can put a smaller capacity magazine. What bullet?
Ben:
That's not standard. Yeah, it's not bullet. It's not a standard capacity magazine. It's still a
Dudley:
Okay, so in, and let's, in Colorado, when, when 20, in 2013. When it, when the mag band was passed. And of course was, imagine that was Columbine response, right? No, that was, uh, that was Newtown. Columbine. It was 99. Oh, okay. Um, so,
Curt:
um, wow. Was that long ago? Yeah. Damn. Seems like just the other day. Should I pour you another bourbon? Yeah. Well, one school shooting. Got, wait, can we
Dudley:
make a bourbon pause here? Sure.
Curt:
Okay. Yeah. Actually we should take a little break actually. Uh, well, we can
Dudley:
take No, the, the question is, the question about the bourbons. The question about the bourbon is have, have you been able to taste the difference? Yes,
Curt:
for sure. Um, so we have the
Ben:
Taylor's the winner. We have, eh, Taylor Single Barrel. We have Weller Antique 1 0
Curt:
7, which is very nice. It's very, yeah. In your face.
Ben:
We have, yeah, we, uh, which is 107 proof, the, uh, the eh taylor's hundred proof. We have the Bell Mead Bead Reserve, which is 108, I
Curt:
believe. But it's smoother. It's easier. We have, I like the Weller better. Yeah. We
have
Ben:
no mills, uh, actually is that, uh, mill is about 110 proof. I think
Curt:
maybe I was saying I need. I need to get my reading glasses. Yeah. I lost my reading glasses, so I can't tell what proof it is. I, I will say the antique 1
Dudley:
0 7, which came from my place, is um, there's a little bit left. I don't think that's the taste that I, when you open that barrel, really
it's
Curt:
when open that bottle. I really like that one. That's, that's not as good as, as it is when you, it soybean when you, it's fresh. Yep. Okay.
Dudley:
And in fact, I've asked that question cuz I know people gas their bourbons when you, you put a gas in the top
Curt:
of the bourn. Oh,
Ben:
argon. Yeah. It settles out and it removes the oxygen from being able to touch
Dudley:
the, so it doesn't oxidize. Yeah.
Curt:
So, um, I've actually pretty happy with this Noah Mill thing. It's really quite pleasant. Um,
Dudley:
sorry, but that, eh, Taylor, none of those are even on the same planet as the, eh Taylor.
Ben:
I think the one oh seven's close, but not, but you know, I would say eh, Taylor then 1
Curt:
0 7. What? I mean I'd pay triple the price for that. Eh? How much is the eh taylor
Ben:
uh, now boy that single barrel's probably gotta be what, two, 200 give or take on the secondary birthday? On the Yeah. To, cause you can't buy it right now. Yeah. You just can't find it. Yeah. I, I think I got that as a, as a present from Oh, thanks for
Curt:
sharing your fancy bourbon. I bought like a$80 bottle of bourbon. Like, cause I wanted to not like totally. Uh, it's good.
Ben:
It's good. Yeah. It's quality. That's quality, you
Curt:
know.
Dudley:
Uh, so, okay, so I'm just checking cuz I'm, I love the h
Curt:
Taylor. Yeah. That's your favorite.
Dudley:
I'm Looking's favorite. I actually have a couple guys, including Taylor Rhodes, looking for that right
Curt:
now. Dudley will give you, uh, 40 bucks, 60 bucks for finders fee for the rest of that bottle. Ben kidding. Um, okay, so we're actually gonna take a little break here Okay. You grew up listening to Rush Limba. I
Ben:
did, man, I remember when Rush Limba, I think it was 89, came to Fort Collins and did a pie sale. Do you remember that? I actually,
Dudley:
I actually, we lit, dropped that pie
Ben:
sale man. My dad went and I was seven years old and I, I totally followed my dad. Oh, so your dad
Curt:
was a fairly conservative minded person even though he wasn't a gun shooter and stuff like that. Yeah,
Ben:
absolutely. Grew up in a, you
Curt:
know, conservative Christian. Oh, it was one of my questions was like if your gun stuff was related to the Liberty stuff or it grew at the same time, or, or what Yeah, it's a, it's a good
Ben:
family legacy. It's a good question. Um, yeah, cuz again, I, I didn't grew, grow up in a particularly political family or, or anything. It's just, you know, dad would, you know, as a, as a follower of Christ and, you know, he would get, he, he'd get. Easily, no, I shouldn't say easily. That sounds negative, but you know, get just frustrated with the challenges of this world. Yeah. You know, and see the deterioration of this world right in front of his eyes. And so I just remember dad getting, you know, um, gosh darn, you know, and can't wait for Jesus to come back and he'd storm out of the room, you know? And so, um, and, and so you can't help but start to consider the things that you see, you know, on TV or that you're hearing on the radio or so something. I mean, I remember as a kid hearing Rash Limbaugh, you know, and we would drive our, our,
Curt:
and he's like 19, same kind of
Ben:
stuff. Yeah. 1982 Volvo. We would drive it to Louisiana to go see the family from Colorado's 20 hours in a car, and you'd hear the, you knowing, you know, the, the little background noise to, to Rush Limbaugh and, and, and you'd listen to him. You know, I was seven, eight years old and you start to just
Curt:
kind of interesting. I didn't, I didn't have any of Subc personally really. Like we had conversations and family and stuff like that, but I've never listened bar. I have listened to Rush Limba five episodes or 10 or something. Yeah. Not that I had imposed. I. Didn't do that. I met him
Dudley:
one time.
Ben:
I mean, I'll never remember. There was this one thing I remember him saying, I was probably 10, and I remember him calling somebody a colossal jewel of gleaming ignorance, I believe is what he said. Uh, uh, you know, so you kinda go, oh, this, this guy sounds quote controversial. Right? Um, but uh, yeah, so, so kind of grew up with that. And then it's, you know, and, and one of the challenges that, you know, even Dudley and I, we, we, we discuss, and, and Dudley said as much at, at the beginning, like, first and foremost we're, we're followers of Christ. You know, does not mean that we are without sin. I mean to, to the contrary, you know?
Curt:
Yeah. I only tell people I'm a Christian because I need more grace than most
Ben:
people. Yes. Yeah. We are the fat people that know we're fat and go to the gym. Like, you don't, you don't get frustrated. There's fat people at the gym. No. Those are the guys who need it. Right. And so, um, and so, you know, balancing out that, that idea of who is Christ as a, as somebody who cares, right? And, and there's part of the liberal side of, of the aisle that, that thinks emotionally in front of this sort of caring perspective. Yeah. But then does not necessarily think logically, you know, it's, it's all, it, yeah. I shouldn't say all, but, but you know, largely a, an emotional argument versus, versus a logical argument. Argument. And how do you, how do you, uh, uh, find out who, well, that's who Jesus is. He was neither conservative, nor nor liberal he was Jesus. You know, he's perfect right? So, um, so
Curt:
that's, that's what we, well, he logos. Which is logic, which is the word, which is like reason in itself, right. And it's ultimate feeling. Um, right. So,
Ben:
so, you know, that's, that's always a challenge, you know, how do you, uh, how do you balance that out in such a way that, that, um, you know, I, I still believe like, gosh, do I ever want to use a firearm against somebody? I, I truly pray that that never happens. I hope that I never have the opportu opportunity. I
Curt:
kind of think it would be exciting to be in kind of post. Yeah. May, maybe al apocalypse kinda stuff. No zombie apocalypse. Right? I do fantasize
Ben:
about that, you know, but, but, but then I, but then
it
Curt:
brings me past, but real society
Ben:
people. Yeah, dude. If I had to, if, you know, if somebody broke into my home and, and I had to, you know, put a bullet into'em and they die on my stairs. Yeah, yeah. Dude, guys shouldn't have, you know, come in and, and tried to negatively impact my family. And, and I will, I will defend them.
Dudley:
Boy, that was a euphemism. Negatively impact my family, negatively
Ben:
impact my family, right? So, uh, but
Curt:
bust the cap and the bitch heaven, right? No,
Ben:
sorry, sorry. Take the opinion of, uh, you know, I pray God may that never. So that I never have to find that out. Yeah. I don't want to, and I don't hold it against anybody who has, uh, to, to the contrary. I think, uh, I think, you know, some that, some that's
Curt:
one of the greatest acts of nobility is to defend others.
Ben:
Yeah. I mean, listen, you know, sin sinful people make their decision and uh, sometimes that's to commit some pretty in intolerable acts and they need to be called out, uh, sometimes physically
Dudley:
for them and by and by doing so, they might have to take the asphalt temperature challenge.
Curt:
Asphalt. What's the asphalt? Uh,
Dudley:
a guy named a guy from, uh, active self protection. Oh.
Curt:
Um, like he breaks down all the sh all the shootings, your face in the asphalt. He's like,
Dudley:
he's like, yeah, that guy took the asphalt temperature challenge. Yeah.
Curt:
threw up, was his cheek was pressed on the asphalt for about 30 seconds. He knew how cold it was once he was dead. That one. Oh, as temperature, what's the temperature of asphalt? Yeah, I get it. Um, could be hot. Yeah. So, um, I wanted to ask two more questions about Nagger, uh, Colorado Gun arm Geo. Yeah, go ahead. And then we're gonna get into faith, family politics, and then we're gonna wrap it up and get you guys out here. Love it. Love it. Um, first, like what's the, the future hold for your organization? For, for Nagger National Associated for gun rights especially, and then what's like the future of. gun rights and like, what do you see coming down the pike? We talked a little bit about the Supreme Court stuff already and maybe some of the, the state laws that are gonna be likely turned the other way or maybe, who knows? Hopefully. Yeah. Right. Like, talk to me about what you see coming down the pike in that space because it's, it's been very choppy, right? That you've had some big wins, you and the NRA working together, big wins. And you, you know, there's been some, some significant drawbacks in, in, in rights over the last few
Dudley:
years. There, there are other organizations and, uh, governor of America, they're good friends of ours. Um, they're, they're certainly state level organizations are friends of ours, but like NRA didn't do anything on Bruin. Mm-hmm. Um, and they're a great number of, uh, just activists who do Lone Wolfe, although I like to tell people who are lone wolfing it and do that. It's easy to be picked off lone wolfing it. Yeah. Um, you gotta operate in a, in a crowd, um, as a team. Um, but, um, and that's tough because, uh, you know, liberty minded people don't like caper the team. We like to just do. Uh, so, you know, I think, uh, the concern is, um, for woke states, I'm gonna keep using that term
Curt:
because it's not just guns. Yeah. What is woke? Cause my Rotary club had a whole thing the other day where, One of our members referred to woke in a derogatory way, and the other member was like, well, woke, I think of as being like, sensitive to the realities of class struggles or, uh, race struggles or things like that. Read it
Dudley:
straight out of dos cap. Right? Yeah. He was a Marxist. Um, the, the term, the term woke, I mean, I like to chuckle at it because of course that's what I try to do is wake people up. Um, you like
Curt:
JP Sears? Yeah. awake, but not woke. Um,
Dudley:
but, but I'm not a, uh, you know, I think, um, drag queen's story Hour to giving, giving seven year old kids dildos, um, is a little off, um, is a little more than a little off would. Yeah. And, um, and doing
Curt:
things counterproductive if we want healthy children and families in the future. Yeah.
Dudley:
I'm, um, you know, I, it's not, it's not that I think don't think that that people of different race have, um, don't have struggles. It's, uh, I think defining everything by a racial struggle, um, can be, um, very counter class, very counterproductive. Yeah. But, um, but the, the, the woke world of gender politics is what really drives me crazy. Um, you know,
Curt:
I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna go sidetracked there. We can talk about Yeah, no, let's do it. But tell me about the future, like from a gun standpoint. Yeah, I, I think the, because I guess what you're saying is that this woke stuff is a very distinct challenge to maintaining the freedoms and rights, especially free speech. Like you're not just a Second Amendment organization anymore. Like you were now, you're becoming a First Amendment, or We've always
Dudley:
been very deeply tied to the First Amendment. We've had more clear now we spent, we spend a lot of law of money on legal side, um, defending the rights to talk to, um, our members, talk to gun owners, and by definition anybody who wants to talk to them, it's a marketplace ideas and, and made the best ideas win. And, and you. It. Uh, I don't think government has any, any role in restricting that. Um, I'm very critical of churches. I think churches have basically abdicated their ability to speak into the, uh, public square. Yeah. And they hide behind attack status and shame on you. Yeah. Um,
Curt:
interesting. Um, do you know Douglas Wilson the blog and May blog podcast? No, I don't think so. Oh, you would like him. He's from Idaho. Moscow. Ooh, Moscow. Haven't been. I've been there. Yeah. Uh, yeah, check it out. You'll like it. So, so
Dudley:
up worth, I think where we're headed, um, in our country is, uh, but you're right, there's few it, there, there is a very deep concern that we are headed to, um, not a cult civil war, but a hot civil war. Yeah. I think we're in a cult civil war right now. There's a, there're very much a, I mean, people don't wanna say it cuz it's very uncomfortable that, that somehow we're, everything is fine, we're just gonna be fine. We have disagreements. Um, but at some point you push people too far and, um, you know, a, a veteran who served in Fallujah is told now because he went and saw a mental health counselor that he can't own a firearm. You know? Right. You know what that guy does? He shoots you if you come and take his guns, Right. Those guys are not, and, and that is, that's, that's a very, very bad spiral down. So
Curt:
you're predicting defeats on the side of freedom. in the future that turn into a hot. Is that fair?
Dudley:
I don't, I don't wanna say I predict it. Um, but it'd be an idiot not to think that that's the direction we're headed right now. That the, that's the, not the direction we're heading. I think we're, we've become more and more polarized and, um, man, that's not, I'm not controversial to say, but, um, but I do believe, uh, there's a, a growing class of people who frankly wanna write off on, on my side. I say on the very, very conservative side, who wanna say that everything is a conspiracy. The election's a conspiracy. It was all rigged. Um, I don't buy any of that crap. Yeah. Um, but, uh, um, and that's somebody who's,
Curt:
I buy it a little bit, but not all the way. Yeah. Because I think mostly people who are just like, they like the government goodies and it's easy to sign up for that Right. Kind of style of thing until it turns wrong.
Dudley:
I think the big, the big the direction that, that of course we hope is that, um, the Second Amendment actually gets enough traction now with the Bruin decision, um, that at least for the, for, um, coming future that, um, that frankly, city Councils, county Commissions, including our county here in LaMer Right. Which I live in. Um, rethink this. You know what, we can't just do whatever we want, ma Majority dis doesn't make law. Yeah. You actually, you actually have to go abide by the constitution. Um, as I was saying earlier, finally, you know, the constitution, which has been sitting in a, in the national archives, um, means something it's gonna, can get exercised a little bit maybe, and it's gonna be exercised. And we are a constitutional public. Uh, yeah. What you're saying that I think they we're not a democracy. We're not a democracy. The all the walls don't get a vote on who to have for dinner. Yeah. When the lamb is the minority Right. Um, and so, and so, um, I think what we're gonna end up with is, at least in the future here is, uh, some great decisions. I also think, um, it's possible that there's a frustration, uh, certainly amongst the Biden administration to pack the court and Oh, right. And now that they'll have a tough time in the US Senate right now, they won't be able to do it with the US Senate. The numbers didn't change enough, uh, for them. Yeah. Well for them to do it, but doesn't mean they won't be able to do it in the future, um, is to, when I say PAC Court expand
Curt:
the court, wait, expand it to 15 So they don't So then they have a majority. Yeah.
Dudley:
Which is okay. Whatever. That's like, that's like starting a hockey game and, and saying, ah, guess what? We're gonna take another defenseman
Curt:
getting. Filibuster is the same kind of logic. Well put, Kurt. It's like, uh, this is the most shortsighted decision I could. Well, you know what assume,
Ben:
and, and to kind of parlay off of that is, is I don't see the second Amendment, and maybe this is an naive, you know, position. I don't see the Second Amendment as a, as a left wing or right wing issue for sure. I, I'm, um, and I'm always, I I truly am a little confused
Curt:
as historically, it was the left wing that feared the government. Right, right.
Ben:
You know, so I, I'm, I'm confused as to why it's a right wing issue. Um, I think that everybody should distrust their, their government, and it's, um, and
Curt:
Oh, I just thought of something clever. I wanna share it. Yeah, please do. We used to be like maybe a 50 or a hundred years ago, government was like a necessary evil, and now it's more like an evil necessary Yeah,
Ben:
no, y yeah. Good, good point. And, and so if, if I could kinda separate and, and, and, you know, this is, this is, uh, this is, this is really high level, but if I can, I could say, how do you define a conservative versus a liberal? I would say, you know, a, a liberal believes that government is the answer and a conservative believes that, that I am the answer. And, um, and that's, that's a very, you know Yeah. Simplistic way of, of, of putting
Curt:
it in. Yeah. First you have to be responsible for yourself from a conservative viewpoint.
Ben:
Right. You know, and, and you're, and then you can dig deeper into that. I'm, I'm very skeptical of, of the human nature. I mean, I, I understand as, again, as, as a follower of Christ, that people are fundamentally evil, not fundamentally. right? And so you can also look into liberalism, conservative. Yeah, we've talked about that. And so, um, I, I just, I don't trust people in large groups making good decisions. It's time and time again. They tend to make very bad decisions. And, um, and, and so I, I, I, back to the point, I, I don't see, I think that liberals right now should be incredibly pro-Second Amendment. more so than ever before. Why? Because well, what happens if and when the, the political spectrum shifts. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, so when that, when, when that pendulum swings the, it
Curt:
was way interesting thing, like the panic when Trump started changing some of the state tax laws Oh. And stuff like that. So many liberals, like the executive privilege, or not the executive privilege, but just the, the increasing power of the executive office, which had been like increasing since Bush won. Really? But got like stupid during Obama. It was great. Most of that time when Clinton and Obama were in office, and then when Trump started using executive power, they were like, oh, wait, we can't have a president having all this power. Right?
Dudley:
Right. Oh yeah. I actually had a neighbor come to me, um, and hardcore lefty neighbor who said, Dudley, do you still teach firearms courses? And I said, well, not really, but you know, I, I'm happy to help people. And she said, I'm just worried about those Trump people coming, coming to my house and, and creating problems. This is, this is during this summer of 2020. Get done,
Curt:
granny. Get your gun. Take advantage
Ben:
of your second amendment. I'd
Dudley:
love to tell, I'd love to say that, that, um, you can't bashing armed gay,
Curt:
right.
Dudley:
you know, and more power to you. Um, anybody who's in the position of, of being vulnerable, um, you know, Sam Colt made everybody. Yeah.
Ben:
So God made Man, Sam Colt made them equal. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. What was it? Dave Chappelle that said the Second Amendment is there just in case the first one don't work out. Yeah.
Curt:
you know?
Dudley:
Yes. Yeah. Yes. So, so, you know, I always advocate, Hey, look. Um, during the summer of 2020, I, I watched as people were coming into gun shops and I was, yeah. We were watching it very. It was not your traditional gun owner. Right. They didn't look, they didn't have weeds in their teeth, and they weren't wearing a coveralls, These were like Bernie stickers on their cars. Rainbows and, yeah. Yeah. Interesting. And, um,
Ben:
and I love it. Uh, fantastic. Take up your second amendment, take take
Curt:
hold of your second Amendment, then maybe you'll
Ben:
take up your first. Absolutely. Maybe, maybe you'll actually care about, uh, limiting government. That that's really the issue. Now, I don't, and
Dudley:
don't get me wrong, I don't want the communists to run anything. Um, but they all have the right to personal defense. And, and although I don't really think our founding fathers ever wrote the Second Amendment thinking of personal defense, and they didn't think of hunting, they didn't think of personal defense. They meant
Curt:
keep the government off of crushing
Dudley:
us bo working against tyranny. Yeah. And, and I know the, that sounds terrible, but No, it sounds like it's a hundred percent. And, but because I get people to come to me and say, oh, that's so silly. What are you gonna hold off of, uh, a, an, a modern army with, with small arms as the Taliban in
Ben:
Afghanistan, right?
Dudley:
Yeah. Yeah. They were, I had a few friends over there. Yeah, those booger eaters were using freaking
Ben:
mu. We, we just gave them a bunch of Black Hawk helicopters. Yeah. Apparently
Dudley:
it works. They, but they were using, uh, they were, they're actually using old powder, uh, 1863 Enfield hack. I have one. Um, Marco Tilling got it for me, um, when he
Curt:
was over there. You've been at Grunt Fest before? Um, I actually brought the
Dudley:
machine guns to Grunt Fest. I
Curt:
remember. Yeah. So,
Dudley:
so, um, so is my pins scourer? So, um, so, but like, the, the funny part was when the Ukrainian battle happened finished. Ooh. They're going back for more. Yeah. Finish it off, man.
Curt:
Okay. Well I will, if, if I'm gonna do, Ben's gonna be more Taylor. Yeah. I want, do you wanna, do you wanna do the Well, no, no, go, go for the Weller. Well, let's finish this off. Come on. Yeah. Whatever. Do whatever you want, Weller. I'll have more now. Kurt, you that you like that, huh? I like that one. Yeah. I want
Dudley:
to hear what your notes are. That one's
Curt:
hard, not court. All of me. Yeah. There you go. Yep. It's gone. Kurt, joining that while I had to walk home tonight. Yeah, exactly.
Dudley:
So I had a, uh, again, uh, Thomas Massey called me when the Ukrainian, um, war happened, and he said, Duley went, how can we take up a collection of Americans ar fifteens Right. And, and donate them. Said, and donate to Ukrainian. Citizens, not the
Curt:
government, not military, not the government.
Dudley:
Yeah, let's just arm those bastards and um, and make it really painful for the Russians. I think that pretty cool actually. And, and Thomas and I were like conspiring for several weeks. We're like, how can we do this? And I, I tickled every contact I had
Curt:
and like, it would be impossible cuz Zelensky doesn't want to have a bunch of his citizens to have weapons. Uh,
Dudley:
he does, does he? Okay. Oh yeah. And, and, and it's, some of it happened, but
Curt:
we couldn't figure out because he seems like an authoritarian too. No offense because just anti-big government man. Right. I anti powered concentration, you know, and Yep. He seems like he wants to have all the power instead of other people having all the power. I I, I don't follow God speed bit on him though, because frankly he's, yeah, he's, we couldn't done what he
Dudley:
needed to do. We couldn't figure out how to do it and, and because mostly because the Pentagon was gonna stop you. Um, but, but of course I thought we could probably amass a hundred thousand ar fifteens as an organization. I'm dude in about a week to donate. But it would almost be like World War ii. Some people were like, what are you talking about? I'm like, in World War II when the British were worried a after Dunkirk and they were back on the island and they were worried about the Germans coming and invading Right. During, during the Battle of Britain and launching an invasion of British Isles, we. We sent a totally disarmed British citizenry. Americans sent I think 800,000 really firearms. Oh, wow. Many of them had plaques on the guns. They would put little brass plaques that said, don't give them, kill a Nazi. Give them hell by by, you know, Joe Blow Chadron Nebraska. Right. And that's so cool. And um, and to me that's the, that's American story there. That's the
Curt:
base base of it all for you is just, we, we need to have a world that's free enough that the government can't like, make you do stuff.
Dudley:
We, every government official on the planet should, should, um, sweat bullets anytime they're thinking about doing something that violates a, a natural, right. Because they might get
Curt:
shot. So I wanted to think about the, before we go into the proper faith, family politics. Okay. Uh, when you were talking about two, two, uh, wolves and a sheep voting this, uh, free school lunch for kids in Colorado that just passed by a overwhelming majority. Did you follow that? Yeah, I voted
Ben:
against that one. Right. Well, it's basically, I'm sorry, tax me. No, just take care of your own kids. Yeah.
Curt:
But I mean, it's like here, we're only gonna tax people that make more than 300 or$350,000 a year because I was to buy the lunches for all the rest of the kids. And so there's only a few people that make more than$350,000 a year. So they're obviously opposed General. but then who else is opposed?
Ben:
Yeah. I mean, I almost think that only people who made more than$350,000 should have been allowed to vote on that. Right. Agreed. I mean, I'm, yeah, I, I agree. I believe that only landowners, you know, people who are property owners, uh, should vote, should vote on property taxes, vote Well, I Right. Period. Period. If you don't have property, don't vote otherwise, you're just gonna vote it for
Curt:
yourself. Sounds like you're kind of racist against people who don't own their houses. Ben I, I didn't know
Ben:
that home ownership was a racial issue.
Curt:
No, but seriously, I'd like to have you expand on that. Let's, let's start it right now. We're gonna get into the, yeah. The closing segments. Faith, family policy. We'll call us a political issue. Right.
Ben:
It's always, you know, I think Dudley, uh, summed it up easier. Uh, yeah. Pretty, pretty simply. Earlier when he said, uh, what, what, what is when all the, the wolves vote to eat the lamb? Because the lamb is the only one who's for dinner. Yeah. Who's, because the lamb's the one for dinner. Gee, who's gonna lose that? And, and so, uh, it, it, I don't know. It doesn't take a, they would be more property owner just
Curt:
to figure this out. Like, that's all about asen incentives too. Like, I was just thinking to myself that if, if all the non-property owners voted and said, well, I think all the property owners should send everybody else a thousand dollars a year or whatever, well then before too long, there would be a whole bunch of property owners. Yeah. Like if you made voting obligatory on owning property, so many people would own property. I don't, I
Dudley:
don't know if it's property owners. I've been, I don't believe this. Let's make everything really easy to vote. And don't kid yourself. I know it's largely been the Republican County clerks who hold a vast majority of the county clerk positions in the state. Hmm. They're the ones who've been forever saying, we need vote by mail. When you make real easy, we don't want everyone to vote. I don't want everyone to vote. I really don't. Now, first of all, I believe everybody should, should vote. I believe everybody should have the right to vote. I believe y you should have the, but it should be difficult. You should actually have to do some things. I don't want people who just like, oh, I saw a commercial. I'm voting. Right. Well, that's the general I'm voting on my
Curt:
phone. Right. I got ballot in the mail. Like, yeah. That's the general sentiment.
Ben:
I, I, I can't, I vote right here. I can't tell you've that I've spent, you know, a, a, a lifetime considering whether it's specifically property ownership that defines one's ability
Curt:
to Right. But something to vote should almost be a qualifier. It's, it's, yeah. It's, it's a general idea. It's a super license thing. You get a regular vote if you're just a regular person, but if you're more idea or smarter, it's painful to you. Triple votes, vote early, vote often. Yeah.
Ben:
It's the idea of the, if it's painful for you, you should be the one that votes on it. Yeah. If it's easy for you to inflict pain on another person, it should not be easy for you to vote on that. And that's the general. Yeah. I think, I, I, I think that even dudley's getting at is that, is that there, there should be a challenge to have to overcome to, to, to go and, and vote general gifts from the government. You know, back to myself. Yeah. That I, that I lean against government
Curt:
secret. That's taxpayer in this case that I brought up at, you know, the, the people that make$350,000 a year now are buying free school lunches for the people that make two$50,000
Ben:
a Well, that's just a, that's just a, you know, an arbitrary tax against business owners. Because I've been, you and me both know, as, as bankers, how many, you know, hundreds of tax returns did we see where somebody quote, made a million dollars on paper. Right. And you, but these guys were taking home personal salaries of roughly a hundred grand right.
Curt:
Back, you know, 10 years ago. Right. And that business needed that money to be able to grow up. The other
Ben:
900 grand was shoved back in the business. And, um, and they were paying taxes on these, they didn't, they didn't have that. Right. Because of the structure of an LLC and a single taxation entity. They, they're, they're quote, you know, they, they make$850,000 a year. They're
Curt:
pulling in a hundred grand. My dad's got a 10,000 acre farm right now. Him and my brother are together. Ooh. He must be rich. I bet he makes a million, million dollars. He is kind of rich now, but for the first 15 years of his farm, every dollar that that farm made was reinvested into the farm and we ate free school lunch. Yeah. You know, because we didn't, we lived on his motorcycle mechanic salary. And it's the same notion.
Ben:
It's just, yeah. And, and, and again, so, so either everybody pays a flat, flat tax. I mean, you, you want to get rid of, uh, tax accountants and tax lawyers, uh, you know, there's too much of lobby popular with the tax tax. Sure. We're gonna be really, uh, really popular here. But, uh, flat tax, you know, is a very, very simple fair tax you make if you make, make the fair
Curt:
tax. That's a, yeah, there you
Dudley:
go. It's fair. Only if I only buy that if, if we're actually replacing it. Because unfortunately a lot of the fair tax people are like, anything to get a fair tax, let's just start with a fair tax. Right. Then we'll slowly amp it up and reduce income tax money. Yes. No, screw you. I ain't doing, I'm not full replace
Curt:
that. Shell gain. It's this, it's this. Yeah. No, you're, you're
Ben:
right. Because then, then you have both, it's, it's kinda like, it's kinda like gasoline taxes. It's like, well this is just a small nine temporary cent tax. Temporary 9 cent tax for your, yes, for your, for I 25. You like, do I 25 still suck? Ever
Dudley:
tried to repeal a tax? So we have a bill in Congress right now trying to rep. The federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition. Oh. You know that today when you buy a firearm, it's 11% percent more expensive on
Ben:
the 50th, uh, yeah. Firearm and more.
Curt:
I've never bought a firearm, so I don't know what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. You've lost'em all on a voting, voting accident. Tragic
Dudley:
So, so, um, yeah. Uh, Andrew Clyde is from Georgia, his house member who's running the bill, and, um, and the bill basically gets rid of this 11% federal excise tax, which you should have put it in the omnibus. Yeah, yeah. Right. you don't actually see, because of course it's done paid by the manufacturer. Right. It's just passed on to you, you just don't know it's a unit, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mean interesting pay.
Ben:
I can tell you right now, as a firearms manufacturer, if we had an 11% decrease in our cost, you know what we would do? Decrease our retail price by 11%.
Dudley:
Yeah. I would recommend No, no. Do you sell
Ben:
firearms
Curt:
on the, get a margin, man, you're a banker, but, but you see the point. It does. You don't, it's cost, it's an
Ben:
inflation. Nobody just all of a sudden makes 11% more and they're all happy because then the guy down the street decreases to only 10% and then the next guy decreases to only 9%, and then eventually it just, it washes out. Yeah. Because the free market is, is a lot more efficient than
Dudley:
Ben. You, you sell firearms out overseas, right? Internationally?
Ben:
No, we don't. huh? Yeah. We don't,
Curt:
but you don't, you have an export do. Yeah. So someone else does.
Dudley:
Yeah. But you could call yourself an international arms
Ben:
dealer. That's true. Yes, yes, yes. Although, fair enough. Yeah. We do have dealers. Hey, fair enough. Yes. We do have dealers outside of the United States. I see what you're getting. See, I, I've
Dudley:
always wanted that on my resume. I have an international, international warm
Curt:
dealer. You could have been traded for Brittney Griner. Yeah. No.
Ben:
Nicholas Cage is my, uh, you know, Lord of four.
Curt:
Right. Um, Dudley, I want to hear what you say when I, when I ask about faith, family, politics in general, but first I want to talk about your faith. Like, uh, where did that come? Was your folks, they were Christians before they even met each other,
Dudley:
or No? Um, my mom was, uh, I grew up in divorced family in South Dakota. And, and, um, you know, I, I accepted Lord when I was in sixth grade and, but, um, wasn't really real. Yeah. Until I got a plane crash in 1993. Okay. Small plane crash. And, and, um, uh, I was in a, I had a, a small business, uh, with some family members and we were in a very, um, pre, uh, long story precarious, very precarious position. Okay. Uh, crashed a small plane and should have died. Wow. I mean, I know we, we were in, we stalled at about 300 feet. Oh no. Wow.
Curt:
Yeah. It's so we should have been dead. Is this your local experience or no, Uhhuh Well, the local experience is the craziest experience of your lifetime. But let's just tell this story now. Transitional for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a faith story
Dudley:
now. Yeah. Yeah. And um, I remember it was back when I was single and I remember, um,
Curt:
so you're like 22 or 24 or something, whatever,
Dudley:
83. Um,
Curt:
you graduated college in 89, 25, 26, whatever. Yeah.
Dudley:
And I went to um, uh, and I, I had a golden retriever at the time, who was my family. Right. And, and he was over at my sister's house. So, um, cuz I was leaving, supposed to be leaving town. Well, we crashed the plane. I'm
Curt:
This is you, this is, we
Dudley:
is who, uh, of the owners of the business, which is my brother-in-law and my cousin. Okay. And, and, uh, down at Front Range Airport, which is the cutout of Dia You where that is Southeastern Dia. And that's where we had our hangar. And, um, and I, I went, the weird part is I'm very good in like emergency circumstances. I'm, yeah. I keep my how cool him. I keep my cool. I, um, and, and the other two guys in the plane, my brother-in-law and who's still one of my best friends and my, my cousin, uh, we, he, they were. Freaked out and, um, and we literally, um, had the doctors look at us and, you know, and everybody's looking at us like, you should be dead.
Curt:
So you stalled out and you fell from the
Dudley:
sky basically. We, we actually emerged from a cloud bank at about a 70 degree pitch, um, I think 170 hundred 80 miles an hour in a Viking. And, um, and, and crashed it on the tail. Got the nose up high enough. Yeah. Crashed it on the tail in a, in a cornfield. Whoa. And um, like,
Curt:
oh shit. Oh shit. Oh shit.
Dudley:
Yes. Full of fuel. Whoa. And, and I remember because
Curt:
it's, it had the scrap those fuel tanks off, and,
Dudley:
and it had, it had those canopy, it had a sliding canopy and, um, and we hit, we landed, I was sitting in right seat. My brother-in-law was an Air Force pilot, was sit, was pilot in command, and we hit, we hit our heads, like, like hit the, the panel. Yeah. And my cousin was in the back and, and he, he was an air emmp, a mechanic, aircraft mechanic. And he, he just immediately screamed fire and. and kicked out this little triangular window in the backseat. I still don't know how I'm, I was the smallest of the guys. I don't know how we got out. Right. But we all got out of that triangular window, um, as fast as you can possibly imagine. Dove out and, and ran, you know, a hundred yards away. And we didn't end up having a fire. My brother-in-law was smart enough to land it, smash it on the tail, and before he came to the ground, he had turned the, the electrical master electrical connection off. Oh. Oh wow. So there was no spark. And, um, otherwise, I mean, you know, you could
Curt:
just smell it about where's Jesus in this conversation.
Dudley:
We went, ho um, we went home. Well, everybody, um, went home at this point. And
Curt:
look, somebody came and picked you up and you got this wrecked plate in the cornfield. Where is
Dudley:
this? Well, the N TSB showed up. It was several hours and, um, and the, the paramedic, the ambulance came and checked us out and made sure everything was okay. And of course, I was handling things. I was like, you check'em out, everything's okay. Yeah. And, and then, um, and we, and I went home to my little place in, over by Cher Creek Mall, and I remember just laying down and, uh, I'm like, and the adrenaline had finally drained off. And I remember just playing through my head because when we stalled, I could see the, the propeller kind of windmill. Mm. And I could, we were in the clouds, but I could tell we were stalling. You, you had that feel. Yeah. And, um, and all that ran through my mind is who's gonna take care of my dog? Um, and who am I gonna see? What, what is gonna happen to me right now? Because I'm dead? I'm, I mean, we're, I'm, I don't even see the ground. I'm, yeah. But I know we're
Curt:
stalling at, you know, you've been flying enough
Dudley:
or whatever. You, we just took off. That was badass. Now I know we were dead. And, um, and I just thought we're dead. And who am I gonna see? And we, and so when I went home, I just couldn't sleep. It was, um, you know, it was, that was a question going through my head at the time and, uh, over and over and over again was, um, I don't know what I would've seen. I don't know who, whether I, you know, I, I would've woken up and been in a tunnel and I had no clue. And I, which tells me, yep, uh, you better change your life. And, and, and, um, so that was an epiphany, no doubt. And so we, you know, it was a, it was a time in my life in which I, I got very deeply involved in a startup church in Denver. And, and, um, And, you know, I hadn't been living a life i'd, I'd been working in politics for the leading Christian in the US Senate, um, you know, for many years. And, and so that's how I was known. And yeah, and I'm, oh gee, of course I'm a Christian army. Don't
Curt:
you know, I worked for Bill Armstrong, I worked for Thrivent for a while, and, and those Christians know how to party when it comes time for the conference and whatever, you
Dudley:
know? Right, right. So, um, so anyway, it was, it was just a, a change in life and, and, um, um, I've been deeply involved in a lot of different churches and,
Curt:
and and what do you do? Where do you go to church
Dudley:
nowadays? Good. Clearwater, which is literally right in my neighborhood. Um, and uh, which is Windsor too or No, no, no. I live You've been to my
Curt:
house? Oh, yeah, it does. It's South Collins, Collins's Clearwater. I
Dudley:
don't know where that's at. It's uh, LeMay and Drake. Oh, Southeast Corner, Bo and Drake.
Curt:
Yeah. Used to be different name first Christian. Yeah. Yeah. It used, done some events there in different things over the years. Volunteering stuff. Yeah. Nice
Dudley:
facility. Used to be deeply involved in, uh,
Curt:
non-denominational kind of thing. Yeah. Used to
Dudley:
be in, deeply involved in Eat E Free, um, out in Eaton, which is a great church. A lot of friends there, still, lot of good friends there. Um, um, and frankly, it. Um, it's kind of the, the center of of conservative activism too. Interesting. Um, but Eaton is, oh, yeah. Uh, that church is Yeah.
Curt:
Interesting. Good people. Yeah. Has two, they're, they're buddies with Mark and his church over in alt there. I imagine.
Dudley:
Well, I mean, Mark's church, uh, high Plains is, is uh, very, very new comparatively. Oh,
Curt:
right. So Oh, interesting. So interesting and
Dudley:
small. Yeah. Uh, but,
Curt:
but, um, but he got like into the state, like shut down conversation and stuff like that. Actually,
Dudley:
I consider him, yeah. I file lawsuit with an attorney, Barry Arrington, who's our current attorney on, on the case that Ben's a plaintiff on, um, and brought up the Supreme Court on, on the, the whole, uh, COVID shutdown on churches.
Curt:
Right, right. So, um, he's like, we only have 20 people that come to our church, so we should be able to be open.
Dudley:
But the, uh, yeah, there's, it's a great church. I, I tend to think that churches that don't talk about important things in the public square, and I'll, I'll use this as if you, if you looked at the US Supreme Court decision on abortion this summer and, and you didn't talk about that in your church as a pastor. Yeah. You should quit. Yeah. You're, if you didn't stand up in front of your church and say, say, I would agree with that. I'll say, this is not only. A victory, um, for us. But it, it's also a starting point. It's time to start fighting because all the Supreme Court did was say, yes, you can restrict them. Now it's time to go to your state legislatures Yeah. And restrict them, restrict abortion. You can't murder children and, and, um, pastors who didn't do that,
Ben:
they should quit. No. In separation of church and state is to keep the state out of the church, not to keep the church out of the state. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I think we've, we've, we've kind of, you know, backed off as, as you've mentioned before, you know, duly sort of this, I'm scared of my, you know, my tax status.
Curt:
Right. You know what, I don't wanna chasing my big donors off.
Ben:
That's where I say become taxable and, and operate at a loss
Dudley:
Right. But guess what, no church has ever lost its tax status by talking about politics. Hmm. Interesting. Find doesn't exist,
Curt:
Ben. Were you like a Christian the whole time? I don't think we,
Ben:
yeah. You know, I think we had a, I think we had a slight discussion, you know, last, uh, last time, episode number six. Yeah. Um, but, uh, but yeah, obviously grew up in a Christian home, uh, parents, you know, strong believers and, uh, no doubt
Curt:
period in your life. No. Like epiphany moment, no plane crashes, nothing like that. Yeah. No, no,
Ben:
no plane crashes. I'd, I'd say that my, my faith has been a, has been a journey and that it has been tested over the years, um, you know, through, through slow strain and challenging Yeah. You know, positions. Um, it, it's not a, it's not a faith that has been untested. Um, and, and, and sometimes I think that, uh, that, that living in a very, uh, materialistic society where I have no needs right, is one of the biggest challenges. Isn't, its, isn't challenge
Curt:
to your faith. Um, well, and you're a high income earning guy now. Maybe you make dividends from your gun company, maybe not, but your salary at NG is probably higher than, than you're a banker even. Yeah, sure. It, it becomes challenging. You probably need to raise Cameron, just so you know. Yeah, yeah,
Ben:
yeah. Just, I'll, I'll let him know. but
Dudley:
can I hire you there, Kurt, to work on my board?
Curt:
Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
Ben:
No, it becomes, it becomes, you know, ch challenging to, to feel that you have a need for your soul when you have no needs in your life. And, um, boy, I hope that doesn't fall on deaf ears. Um, and, and I'm, and I'm not trying to be flipping about it, but, but if, uh, if, if, if you believe that your own actions and your own work will, will fulfill, uh, e everything that you need in this life, then all of a sudden you don't think about the next life. And I'm reminded of the scripture that says, you know, what is, uh, how good is it that a man, you know, gained the whole world yet lose his soul? Yeah. And, um, I don't have the whole world. I have a lot of friends who have a lot more of the world than I do. Right. For sure. But, but I want for nothing. Um, I have everything that I need. I have a family. I have great kids. I have, you know, a home. I got a mortgage outta my house. I, you know, I live the American dream. I, yeah. I can eat steak on the weekends if that's what I decide to do. Um, and, uh, can go on Tuesday. Yeah, there you go. And, uh, I can go, you know, hang out with Dudley and we can talk about, you know, go and take a, a, a, a trip on river cruise, European River cruise to Europe. And, and, um, and I, I realized that I am, I'm the top e you're a top one percenter of the Yeah. The percentage of the percentage that has ever existed in, in all of society. I remind my children regularly, the kids, we live as king. We live better than kings and queens from a hundred years before. Through all of existence, right? No, no, no one else had air conditioning steak on the weekends. Could, you know, pop a a bag of potato chips and sit down and watch internet,
Curt:
make videos, popcorn in the microwave. Kids, do you
Ben:
want chocolate? Did you know that 500 years ago you couldn't have chocolate anywhere in the world? And yet we're like cinnamon. That's another sy, right? Cinnamon. Cinnamon. Cinnamon exist saffron.
Dudley:
Oh, oh, it did it. But it, but it came from India. Had it come all the way across the world. So the only the kings of Europe, right, had had saffron. They
Curt:
gonna sprinkle of it once in a while. Dude, I, I was even thinking
Ben:
about like, you know, um, I have this joke with my wife that, uh, you know, if I ever, if I ever make a million dollars like cash, like ever, like have a million dollars, just go, I have a million dollar transaction that I'm gonna buy a, a, a ch uh, a, a wheel of Parmesan cheese because I love Parmesan cheese. And I think that's ridiculous to buy a whole wheel of it. It's like, what, three grand or something like that. So I'm there. Yeah. I've told Dylan
Curt:
to basement, right? If I ever have a shave a little bit up, yeah. If I ever have a cheese
Ben:
party, it's because I've made a million dollars in one transaction. And so anyway, but the point is, is that that doesn't really matter. I can go to Safeway right now and get, was it Parmesan? Reggiano as much as you want, whatever the official stuff. for, you know,$9 and I can half, half a pound of it and I can eat prosciutto and drink Right. Uh, you know, um, wine from France and enjoy, eh, Taylor,
Curt:
you live like a king. Now I live like a king, an upper middle class type of person. I could be lower class,
Ben:
middle, middle class even, and I could buy this, eh, Taylor for a hundred dollars, right. And, or, or, or have pto, salami or, you know, whatever from, from King Supers. And so, um, and so I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, take that lightly that um, that I'm incredibly, um, blessed and, uh, and so it's, it's,
Curt:
and the simple things are worth
Ben:
the most. Oh yeah. And so it's incredibly important that you, that you have your faith tested at different, different points and um, and that you consider your faith and, and consider your values and your, your position in life so that when it's tested, um, you've, you've gone through those mental exercises and, and Yeah. You know, and I mean, you have a response case, well, case and point this awkward. Yeah. This, this, uh, this lawsuit that we're filing against that the state, you know, my
Curt:
Is it a faith related
Ben:
No, I, I mean, I don't want, I don't wanna say that, you know, let's jump in that Jesus cares about my 30 round magazine. That's, that's not,
Curt:
no, but I wanna hear about this lawsuit cuz Dudley's mentioned it a couple times already and Yeah. I mean, it was, it was a challenge with, so let's just transition to politics.
Ben:
Yeah, sure. Shall Yeah. No, and, and, and, yeah. So I'll take, I'll take the faith base and then, and transition it in. But, but you know, my wife and I, uh, you know, Katie. Wonderful woman. And, and she's, you know, she obviously, you know, women are a little bit more concerned about stability and security, consistency and security and that sort of thing. And so we had this, this discussion and she's like, yeah, man, I, I don't want your name to be dragged, you know, through the mud. I I don't want you to, to have to lose out on, on business or, you know, or, or, or value or, or, you know, your reputation for something. And, and, um, is having a 30 year round magazine a faith-based thing? N no, it's, it's a liberty based thing that I, I think is, is important. And I think I can, um, I I think it, um, it ties into some faith-based issues. Bring us up
Curt:
level. Like, what's this lawsuit? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ben:
So, so the, the lawsuit we're, we're suing the state of Colorado, um, under this, uh, that Oh,
Curt:
under Ron?
Ben:
Yeah. Well, what Dudley discussed earlier was in 2012 that some laws were passed. They were enacted in, on January 1st, 2013,
Curt:
made the 15 round magazine illegal hearing. So you
Ben:
cannot have a, I want to, and so you're claiming, I'm, I'm clarifying this, a standard capacity, not high capacity, a standard capacity. AR 15 magazine, which is 30 rounds. Okay. Right. Okay. Standard capacity. It's very important. Yeah. And a and a or a standard capacity Glock magazine. So they said pistol magazines cannot have more than 10 rounds. Okay. Right. So, wow. I can't have a Glock ma, all the Glock magazines that I, that I bought for you, remember I got very excited about guns when I was 21. Right. So this is what, 2003 and I, you know, so from 2003 until 2013, um, you know, masked, you know, multiple, you know what they consider large capacity magazines now, right? That were standard capacity magazines. Right. So, so
Dudley:
Kurt, today, if you went to try to buy an AR 15, and um, I know you own any guns, but of course you, if you tried to go and buy an AR 15 anywhere in America, um, your, you would have to make extra effort to, to find one that was sold without a 30 round magazine. Wow. That is the standard capacity, because
Curt:
otherwise you can't put a 30 round magazine in it. You have to go
Ben:
hunt down a 20 round, you have to
Dudley:
hunt down a 10 round magazine. Oh, that's right. I, I
Ben:
even just said 20 round. Because, because the, the minimal capacity magazines, the, the, the lesser capacity original issue
Curt:
are used to be
Dudley:
20 rounds.
Curt:
Right. Used to be 20. That
Ben:
still doesn't allow, you have to find a heavily modified
Dudley:
magazine. Remember they M 16 from the Vietnam War era was, they were issued with 20 round Yeah. A. a metal ar mag or M 16 magazines that were just 20 rounds. Yeah. So here's a, and and the question is, are they in common use? That is what the Supreme Court mm-hmm. Uh, decided in the McDonald case and are they in common use? And in America, well get this an ar. The AR 15 is the most sold firearm in all of America. There are about 40 million AR fifteens in, in private citizens hands. Okay.
Ben:
Okay. Each one has 10, let's say only 10 mags. You can do the math. There's more magazines than there are human beings in the United States. Yeah. So is that common
Dudley:
use? Okay. Now in when I laugh, when someone says I have, you
Ben:
know, 10 magazines. Yeah. 10. Oh, so, so you're deficient a few. That's what that
Curt:
means.
Dudley:
Know like, I'm like, yeah, I, I know how many magazines I have. By the way, the one thing you, what I did in, when the June of 2013, right before Colorado's law took effect, Colorado Airdrop, I literally, um, had a document signed, I signed a document, gave it to an attorney, notarized it that I willed my, um, magazine's, um, 200 to one child and 200 to the other child. So, um,
Ben:
so yeah. And, and some of us were not that smart. We weren't,
Curt:
you know, a firearm wilder policy before it happened. And so, I,
Dudley:
yeah, they, I, it's a document that says they own
Ben:
them and I just would like to say thank you to, to Magpole, uh, for doing the Colorado Airdrop. Yeah. Which, uh, all of 2012, they said Colorado residents get priority. Yeah. And you could order as many ma I don't know. There was probably a capacity right. Limitation, but you could order as many magazines and they would fulfill every magazine order to Colorado residents up until before the restrictions,
Curt:
before the 2013. Interesting.
Ben:
They did that. Thank you Mag po We're still, still fans.
Dudley:
May of 2013. Sorry. I am a stickler for details. So, um, and, and the, uh, but here's a in interesting part, um, that, that not only do, not only is the AR 15, the most, the most commonly purchased firearm in America. It's more common than the Ford F-150 which, which I also have Ford F-150 s. And I tell that to people. I said, watch drive down the road and watch how many Ford trucks you go by. There are 10 times as many, as many wow ar fifteens in America than there are F one 50 s. There are, there are four times as many AR fifteens as there are. Ford trucks. Wow.
Curt:
Yeah. Pretty good. So I need to call another potty break cause I gotta go pee pee cut, cut
Ben:
off. You don't have to
Curt:
keep switching. You can catch back up to it. You
Ben:
don't train up you Yeah. Switch to a new hotel room, you get back on. Oh, you go see, you
Curt:
know. Anyway,
Dudley:
so it's, it's, yeah, so anyway, she wants to use it for that and uh, so I'm trying to get a couple other couples to go
Curt:
for our 10th anniversary we did the Virgin Islands or the Oh yeah, yeah. Like we went to St. Martin and Barbados and a bunch of Caribbean. And the annoying part was like every day you get off the boat at 10, you get back on the boat at three and you just don't really get to see like all you can actually reach is the touristy places from a place where the riverboat stops. Yeah, no. Or
Dudley:
the cruise ship. Well, there's always that art on the boat. Oh wait, the art, have you ever seen that? They do art exhibits on the boat. It's just like cheesy prints and they try and sell you like their originals and No, it's bad. It's really
Curt:
bad. It sounds a little bit like the National Western Stock Show. So, but whatever. Yeah. Um, anyway, where were we? Uh, we were, um, so we pretty much covered faith pretty well. Um, yeah. Yeah. The whole, I
Ben:
guess the whole
Curt:
magazine thing, that's where Well, and then we went, shifted to politics from there, but I wanna come back to politics, but only after I hear about Cindy a little bit because we haven't given Sydney. Cindy. Yeah. My
Dudley:
Cindy's, uh, um, she's a
Curt:
nurse. You just said you got married in 2016?
Dudley:
2016. Um, she's a nurse. She's, uh,
Curt:
um, does she care about guns anywhere near as much as she,
Dudley:
she loves guns more than Dudley Really? Yeah. Yeah. She's, she likes guns. Um, and, uh, she likes shooting. Uh, she's a absolute sweetheart. Yeah, she's very, um, Uh, committed to freedom. She, she loves what I do. And, and, um, you know, we're both very social people, so we love having events. That's how we met, right, Kurt? Okay. Yeah. Um, and, uh, we like having people over. It's why we bought a house, how I met her even. Um, and, and, and, uh, frankly, would've never moved into Fort Collins. Back into Fort Collins. Right. Um, except that, uh, we had a
Curt:
house. She wanted to be around people again.
Dudley:
Well, it's entertain and stuff. It's a house that is made for that. But, uh, but,
Curt:
uh, and you have a previous marriage. You have a son that you
Dudley:
mentioned already? Yeah. Have two kids. Um, my, my daughter just graduated from csu. She's 21. Okay. Uh, Libby's, um, Libby as okay as in Liberty. Yep. Uh, she's 21 and, and graduated just a few weeks ago. And, um, and then my son Ian is, uh, he's 18. He's gonna be a super senior at Colorado, early colleges. And, and he runs, uh, runs the camera and does, um, editing for our YouTube channel. Very cool. Good kids. Sharp. Sharp young guy. He's, um, along with Ben's oldest, um, he's been getting into, uh, a two gun match at our private range. and um, and which I know both of us love the fact that our, their kids are shooting legacy. Yeah. Yeah. That their kids are shooting and they're actually getting good at it and Yeah. And they're annoyingly so both of them, yeah. Yeah. They're competent and they're, they're safe and they know what they're doing. They're drawing, they're pistols are shooting ARS properly. Yeah. And, and competing. And you can just see the glow on their face from it. Um, yeah. Cuz it's hard
Ben:
and it's a challenge and it's fun. And you're controlling power.
Dudley:
It's not a video game. It's not a video. I, I remember it's real bullet. It was funny, Kurt, because my son, this has, many years ago he was playing Fortnite and his, you know, shooting, first person shooting video game. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, dad, um, there's this great gun in there and it's called a sniper rifle. Lemme show you a picture of it. And he shows me a picture of it. It's a 50 caliber semi-automatic Barrett. And I'm like, yeah, cool. And I said, have you looked downstairs in our vault? I mean, we have one we have the real one
Curt:
It's so true. He just wasn't interested up until that point. He's like, what?
Dudley:
I'm like, he has a little bit, but, but then, and then, and then he's like, but the, the, the real game, the gun in the game is this golden. It's called a scar. It's the golden scar. Have you looked in the basement, sir? Have you, have you looked? We actually have a fully automatic fn scar. And he's like, what? You know? So I took him outta the ring. Now that's his favorite gun. And the real
Curt:
thing is way better than the digital.
Dudley:
Yeah. Yeah. Um, and he, so now he even chuckles when he plays the game, he is like, this is silly. Uh, yeah.
Curt:
It doesn't work like that. You know? It doesn't work
Dudley:
like that. We're recipro bolt. Man, that
Curt:
eats your
Dudley:
thumb. That's an interesting thing. So, so, um, and I, I enjoy that. I enjoy the fact that we have kids come into our range and, and not only do we teach'em, you know, safety first. When you say your range, we have a private range. Ben and I own a couple other guys, uh, uh, that we own, um, that's private and we're not gonna
Curt:
talk about more about right now. Well, it's just a private property can come. I can come. It's Yeah.
Dudley:
You with? With one of us, yeah. Okay. Not an official
Ben:
ranges private
Curt:
property. And we go up there, can't remember,
Dudley:
but you private property. We go shoot on it. And, uh, Um, we take a lot of our VIPs, members of congress, legislators come to town. I totally
Curt:
wanna come. Shoot. Yeah. Um, one thing we always do when we talk about family is ask for a one word description of your kids. Would you like to complete that challenge? Dudley? Oh man. Uh, it's gonna take me a minute. And Ben, you can work on it next. Cuz I, we didn't have this thing when you came on the first time. Wow. That's
Dudley:
a cha
Curt:
Yeah. One, you popped that on me. Um, one word. Yeah. You're all polished. You don't talk about your kids much, but this is different. This is the local experience.
Dudley:
I I don't mind talking
Curt:
about my kids. You were just bragging about'em. Um, yeah. So tell me about Ian Ian's your younger. What's, yeah, he's, what's your one word? One solo, one word description
Dudley:
for you. Rockstar Cool. Um, I named him after the lead singer of three different, my favorite bands from the eighties. In fact, I'm even, I'd realized I'm even wearing a t-shirt from the best band that ever existed, which is Joy Division. Okay. Oh, they were, they were the first,
Curt:
like, not what I expected. You
Dudley:
two. Yeah. They were the first ever like, like post punk, uh, yeah. Alternative band. Um, and, uh, but anyway, um, yeah. And,
Curt:
uh, and then for, uh, Libby.
Dudley:
Libby. Libby. I would, um, I. Independent. Hmm. That I would just label her as independent. She's a very independent thinker. Yeah. Independent. Um, she got her own style and I like it. Ben calls her lobster. Yeah.
Curt:
Why is that? I, she
Dudley:
got a burn one time. We called her lobster for a while, but then became lobster. Mm.
Ben:
Good. Good kids, man. Dudley's got good kids.
Curt:
Um, Ben, how old are your kids now? And, uh, well,
Ben:
Everett my oldest. He just turned 13. Oh, he got 13, 10 and eight. Uh, one word, Everett. Precise. Okay. Penny with Penny. My middle, quirky or artistic? Uh, one of the two. Yeah. I'll go with
Curt:
quirky. Whichever one you consider is more of a compliment. Yeah.
Ben:
Uh, my youngest Harvey, energetic.
Dudley:
Nice. I agree with all those assessments of his kids too. So, uh, I spend decent amount of
Curt:
time around the all. It's a pretty fun game. This one word description thing, it's, uh, not often fun.
Ben:
It's amazing. You have three, you know, the genetically they should be
Curt:
right? They're a mix of me
Ben:
and my wife. Yeah. And, uh, and, and yet also different. And yet I've got three and you can see the characteristics, you know, and my wife and, and then me. Yeah. And, and go. You. It's, it's fun to play that game. This is from your side of the family? Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. But all just, yeah. Great, great kids. And, uh, And Everett
Dudley:
came. Everett started coming Everett to our little two gun match and, and hang out. What's a two gun match, by the way? Uh, we just pistol, pistol and airs pistol. Okay. And, and
Curt:
then we, so you'll be able to shoot close and shoot far kind of as the notion
Dudley:
we set up real world scenarios, try and fun
Curt:
scenarios, like shoot the bad guys, don't shoot the good people. Right. Stuff like that. We
Dudley:
did a Elijah Dicken drill, which was the shooter in Indiana this summer. Oh, okay. Then shot it at the mall. Yep, yep. We set that up. So you're trying to emulate that. We did a Kyle Rittenhouse version, um, where, where the, the bad guy had a skateboard in his hands. Right. And the pedophile. Um, and, and, um, of course, of course we did when Kyle came here. We did not, we did not ask him to shoot that course. He'd already shot that course. He got an A on that one.
Curt:
Ptsd d for him, probably Yeah.
Dudley:
Um, uh, and so, um, and so we kind of set up fun course. We did a World War ii, uh, like D-Day version one. Mm-hmm. Where he had to come and toss a fake grenade and, and you know, just, we did fun. One of them, we did edged weapons where you, we set up melons and, and like bad guys and you had to start the, and with a knife throwing edge weapon. Which was, which was like, tactical, tomahawks, katanas. Yeah. Um, like literally Japanese katana. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, um, in trenching,
Ben:
slice, slice the melon, throw a grenade through a hole, and then pick up your gun and Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shoot a
Dudley:
bad guy you just try and make it and, and then of course you're trying to add in some speed and have to have, um, magazines, uh, reloaded. And, and the idea is to build skills and, and provide some stress to it. Yeah. Especially when you have the shot timer, cuz we do it professionally and we run a shot timer and so you
Curt:
zap'em if they go too far back. Yeah. No, yeah, yeah. Throw a
Dudley:
baseball out. So, and of course, and you dq if you screw up, if you get your, you know, if you can't break the 180 barrier and point your gun backward or you're done. Hmm. So, which is true in competitive
Curt:
shooting. So one thing deadly I wanted to ask is like political base, I'm gonna shift back to politics a little bit, but, but then there, but like if the people that want to take all your gun rights away were successful next year. Like contrast
Dudley:
talking about state
Curt:
or federal? Both. Federal. Okay. Both. Like contrast that nation 20 years from now with the, if you win all the. efforts that you're doing well. Like what's the difference in the world? Yeah. Does it really matter? Like Australia's still pretty cool. They don't have any guns uk, right? Yeah. They
Ben:
shut down everybody and put'em in concentration camps during Covid. Yeah.
Dudley:
Go look up the videos.
Curt:
Yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh, so that's
Dudley:
why I, I think, I think the, the,
Ben:
I was there in 97 when they were taking people's gun rights away. I actually lived there for about six months. Really? Yeah. They were, you know, uh, it's you only that's need guns for hunting purposes and stuff. That's fine. And you fast forward 25 years and you see that they're, they're putting people in and what I would call a concentration camp and, and you know, pulling them from their homes and, and putting in them in these areas because you have a sickness, you have a, you have a virus. And we won't, we don't need to get into, you know, the whole covid thing. But, but the point is, is that if the government decides that it wants to do something, well I, with you, whether read
Curt:
it with it or not, I mean, I hate to say it, but Covid thing is a big example of what the power of government. I
Ben:
think that's why you saw liberals going out and buying guns in droves in 24. Right. More power to liberals. Go out and buy more guns right here. Yeah. This is,
Curt:
this is the, so why is America safer with more guns? I guess that's my question.
Dudley:
Well, I think the, you leave each other alone. Yeah. Uh, an armed society is a polite society. I think you're, you're, if you, if you think through the implications of, of the psyche of Americans when they stop being these independent types, um, say entrepreneurs, but, but people who say, I'll go out and shoot my own meal. Mm. And um, and that's who we were. And once we've given up that world, we become British. I don't know. I'll go, I mean, we, my paycheck style, no, I mean, it's so bad, right? If you go into,
Curt:
you go up to the lunch counter basically and take whatever they give you. It's
Dudley:
soil and green is people.
Ben:
Well, and I, I take it, you know, all fairness to Dudley. I take it a step further. If, if, um, if I decide to be disrespectful to a, you know, a 285 pound, you know, man who's built like the rock, right? I'm probably gonna get punched and it's gonna give me a punch that's probably gonna put me in the hospital. And so there's this, um, there's this natural tendency to be. respectful of the individual who looks like the rock when, when you're me, you know? Right. 175 pound man who's five knots left, though you
Curt:
got bigger muscles than I
Ben:
do. You walking out and thank you. And still the rock would, would destroy me. Right. Easy. And so Yeah.
Curt:
Um, with two little
Ben:
pingers. Yeah. And, and so you see this in business, when somebody has more money than you, you're gonna be a little, you know, you're gonna be hesitant to, um, to tick them off because they could probably sue you a little bit more. Right. They, they could take it a little bit further. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and you see this, and so to Dudley's point, uh, uh, an armed society, as a polite society, when you know that somebody can escalate to the point of, of the ultimate outcome, the, the ultimate defense, uh, which, which is your life, you tend to tread lightly. Mm-hmm. And, um, and I can take that even into a, a religious standpoint, the idea of, of the fear of God. Right. It's not just, just scare, it's, it's awe and respect of somebody who can instantaneously do this to me. That that's part of it. And so, and so you, you tread in a way of, of, with a mighty respect of this, of, for the other, for the other who gave a poker who can instantly squash you Yeah. But, but chooses not to. Mm. And so when that's the surrender thing, right. And so when the choice not to squash you happens. a respect happens and, and a respect that, that you carry for many, many years. And you say, you know what? That man, that, that man showed me, um, a, a dignity or a respect or, um, showed me grace and, and at, excuse me, at a moment that he didn't have to and that he absolutely could've squashed me. I'm gonna defend that man. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, um, I'm going to hold that man in, in high regards. Uh, do, I'm sure you and I could both trade some stories offline about businesses or business transactions we had where, where somebody, um, who was very powerful both took advantage of a situation or who did the honorable thing. Yeah. And for me, oh yeah. Those men that did some incredibly honorable things when no one else was looking and when they could have squashed me. I hold them in, in dear regard. Yeah. To this day going forward. And some of them know it and some of them will never
Curt:
know. I, I don't know where this came from. It's a, it's a political figure. Maybe you guys remember, but instead of, we always hear the, the might makes, right. But there was somebody that used the term, right. Makes might mm-hmm. Do you know that Dudley, it was a, no, I don't, it was an American political figure. I think a president even. Um, but it was like, honestly, like that's what I hear. You clucking a lot big chicken over there. Ben is, yeah. Is that being right is powerful and duly. I think that you would resonate with that as well. Yeah. He
Dudley:
put it well. I also think, let, let me get concrete. I don't know how much you know about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.
Curt:
Um, that much. Okay. I'm an inch deep in a mile wide, and that's the same category,
Dudley:
so, so 20 of the essentially prison camp, um, Jews who were put in, in the Warsaw Ghetto Yep. Decided, and they were all from different factions of life and none of them were soldiers or police officers or anything with any experience. Uh, decided they were going to try and acquire firearms, which they were denied both in Germany and in Poland as, uh, individuals. Anybody who actually owned those fire, any kind of firearms were, um, usually because of bureaucratic incompetence. And they ended up holding off a batal, an entire battalion of, of German soldiers. Mm. Um, for almost a month and a half. Whoa. Really? And, and in the Warsaw, they were already captive. Right. And they, because they decided, okay, let's go get, acquire one firearm and figure out how to use it. None of'em knew how. Right. They were violinists and doctors and Right. And then
Curt:
they acquired, well, I read Bon Hoffer, and so I'm thinking about that. Oh, Dietrich Bon Hoffer
Dudley:
stuff is very empowering. But, but then they acquired one firearm and then used that to acquire another, another, and they ended up with, I think, seven guns and they would trade him around and, and then, and go in the sewers. The reason I bring that up is because, is because it's very difficult to oppress an armed, even slightly armed to society, much less a society that's really armed. And I don't care whether you're very far right or very far left
Curt:
now. Yeah. If you don't wanna be oppressed Yeah. More guns for
Dudley:
you. That brings up the question, what about the people who vote for their own oppression? Right. I I, I, I don't know what to say to that.
Curt:
I mean, there are a lot of people that vote for their own oppression these days. Um,
Dudley:
yeah. And, and I, you know, do we, do Americans just blindly go, okay, well I guess they voted for it. Right. And again, that's, we're a constitutional republic, right?
Curt:
So I guess we gotta trust these idiot. ish or something. Um, tell me what, what you think when I say what is the right amount of restrictions to place on gun ownership?
Dudley:
Um, well the 1934 National Firearm Act was challenged by the Miller case in, in 1935, and they defined it as the firearm that average infantryman can carry. Okay. That's a small arm. That is what the second applies. yeah. M 16, M four.
Curt:
So anything 2 49 normal. So a tank or a No, an
Dudley:
average small amounted hit a small arm that an average infantryman. So that's
Curt:
not a right necessarily. Right. Okay. Alright. Yeah,
Dudley:
yeah. I mean, I own. Through, through a dealership, through a machine gun dealership. I own belted machine guns and amazingly, none of mine have ever killed anyone Right. Um, so Well and if, and
Ben:
if and if they have through via you, then you should be, you know, then you should be tried. I think that's also what goes back to, if, if you commit a crime, you should pay for them. Yeah. Right. Fair enough. Again, this is not the minority report. Well, it could potentially commit
Curt:
crimes we're gonna take, so we had a loco think tank, uh, holiday party at the Liberty Firearm some years ago. I don't know if you know about this, but Oh yes. 2018. Thank you. Schley family shout out and, uh, what we a few people like. I didn't, cuz I was like, I'm too poor to sponsor that. That's too expensive. Yeah. If you guys wanna shoot the machine gun, you go ahead and give'em your hundred bucks or whatever for 10 seconds. Yeah. A Gatling gun. Yeah. That was thing was is that one of yours or you have one like that? I don't have a Gatling gun, but I
Dudley:
don't know what, I don't know what gun you rented.
Ben:
Yeah, it's, it's that golden. They've got two, it's a colt and it's a, it's a 45 70. Yeah. Yeah. Crank down. Yeah. The crank.
Curt:
Anyway, no, that's a piece of crap compared to what you got No, I mean they, they have a lot of good friends. It's still fun. That's a pretty special thing. the Schley.
Dudley:
That's pretty cool. Now Ben doesn't say that, but I can say this though. Schley family doesn't give money into politics. Oh, really? So yeah, they're not doing anything to defend our rights
Curt:
right now. Time, time for to step up schley and, well, I, uh, I
Dudley:
mean, it's time, it's time for every gun shop gun owner to do it or manufac or shut your pie hole because if we don't win these cases, he gets what you get. Um,
Ben:
you know, and I, and I can, I, I can step in. I, I, you know, Schleys are friends of mine and, you know, and even the, the obviously my own, you know, company, uh, you know, friends of mine, and it's, it's difficult in, in anything in life. You just, particularly for business owners, you get so, um, tied into the day, the daily grind. Like I'm, I'm looking to make payroll, right? I have to make sure that my insurance is covered. I have to make sure that, that I don't have any HR issues, right?
Curt:
And, and am I doing something now? Like, yeah, there's a few people that have asked me, do I really wanna have Deli
Ben:
Brown on my podcast? Yeah. And so I think no, I think about, uh, uh, you know, I, I, I if once brought to your attention, if you intentionally choose to, to, you know, kind of subvert or, or, or push aside those, those, these firearms issues, yeah. Then I'll, then I'll call you out. And I think that's a challenge. I don't, for me, I don't hold it against the guys. They're, they're the, the conservatives that are sitting there trying to run their business from day to day. A hundred percent. And, and you know, it's like, you know, why don't we have any good politicians? Why don't we good business owners that are politicians because they're outrunning their business, their business. It's the peaceful that I would love to have run this comp country in the. are too busy doing good work
Curt:
and making payroll. It used to be a give back kind of to the nation. Like if you achieved kind of some success, you would serve almost like my facilitators for local think tank. Yeah. You know, they don't get paid much to manage a group, but it's almost, it's, it's a give back and a right. And a in a, yeah. Purposeful, fun. So for the, but now there's all these attacks and if you're a consumer, do you get attacked by, by the other side and vice versa? Uh, yeah.
Ben:
If you don't give, then you must not care. Well, they're gonna dig and
Curt:
if you do give, if you and how dare you, but they're gonna dig your whole political thing out from underneath you.
Dudley:
All I'm tell people is that, that right now, if you're in the firearms industry and you're not being a part of it, um, just your pie hole. Yeah. Because you got no reason to complain. That's fair. When they come, when they literally make it illegal for, for your business to operate.
Ben:
I, I think that's totally, totally valid. You know, like, I agree. Like, listen man, if you're not gonna, if you aren't gonna get involved, just, just don't be, you know, don't be surprised when your rights get taken away from you. And so, um, you know, yeah, the, the Care G guys have been really good. You know, we, we try and support Dudley both, uh, you know, um, off the balance sheet if you will. Um, and on, and, uh, grateful for that. I think there's, there's also some guys that, that unfortunately they have been, you know, uh, uh, kind of attacked by the quote woke mob or, or doxed or something, and they go, I just, I wanna make payroll. I'm out. I want to, I wanna make payroll.
Dudley:
Or Ben, what about Daniel's defense? I mean, this is a company that makes some of the best AR fifteens in the country. Oh, man. And, and they have sold out multiple times and, and to the, to the leftist in Congress. Well, and,
Ben:
and now that, you know, somebody did a stupid thing with one of their rifles, now they're taking a stand and, and, and I agree with the position that, that they're taking, like, listen, you know what, it's a, uh, it's a criminal who decided to do a criminal act. Yeah. With, with an
Dudley:
object. Yeah. We're not suing Corvette because somebody drove their car off into, into a crowd
Ben:
inanimate object. It means nothing. It, it, we, we need to make sure that we are attacking criminals. Not, not just companies who make, so
Curt:
what about crazy people? Can, crazy people have guns? Is that Well,
Dudley:
technically under current law, um, if you've been committed to a mental institution, as long as you have a, a, your day in court, um, in actual court, um, Yeah, you should be, have your second amendment rights removed. You should also have your driving privileges removed. Frankly, you should probably voting not voting rights. Yeah, voting rights. You should probably not be in the general public,
Curt:
basically as a felon, basically,
Dudley:
if you, well, it's not, I mean, you might not have committed a felony.
Curt:
What about your, about just a little crazy. I was thinking about shooting my ex-wife. Well, that's a challenge. Define
Ben:
that. And that's, that's the challenge with the Red Insider, right? Some of these red flag laws and stuff like that is, you know, I decide I don't like Dudley. He's my neighbor and he doesn't cut his grass. And you know, he's just a, he's just a jerk. He's
Curt:
a blow heart. I've heard him talk about guns before. Yeah. So I know he is trouble. So
Ben:
I call in and, you know, hey, getting red flag Dudley, he's, he's crazy. Yeah. The guy's been saying crazy things. He's
Curt:
been wearing his tin foiler hat since the beginning of the pandemic. And
Ben:
so, you know, so, so who, who gets to come in and, and figure out whether that's legitimate or not. And, and some of these, some of these legislative, you know, laws, these laws that are coming out or they're being proposed, it's like, oh, well he can have his rights taken away and not even know why. Right. That's a real challenge. Yeah. You shouldn't have to know who told him. So if I'm going to, if I'm going to error on the side of accidentally taking everybody's rights away or taking away the rights of somebody who, who does not deserve to have them taken away, I'm going to error on, on the side of making sure that Dudley has his, his day in court. Yeah. And that he doesn't have his rights taken away as long as it's
Dudley:
court adjudicated. Um, that's one thing. Then you have your day in court, you can, um, and
Curt:
that's the courts don't do what they used to. Usually it's bureaucracies these days. I mean. Right. That's a whole other issue. The organization and for gun ownership privileges. We're
Ben:
for the, we are for the rule of law,
Curt:
you know. Fair. Um, we have a final section and I'm gonna get you guys out of here. Uh, Dudley, you can start if you'd like. Um, or band. Either way. Better. Me? Better you. You gotta roll. Yes. So it's the local experience. It's the craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share in a public audience. And, uh, what you learned the craziest it could be a week, a moment, uh, instant. Um, a crazy experience that you learned from in business, in life. Uh,
Dudley:
yeah. I mean, I already told you kind of a weird one with the King of Spain. Um, but the, uh, probably the weirdest. Uh, odd one was when I accidentally got elected to the 2012 National Convention in Tampa, Florida,
Curt:
And to be like a,
Dudley:
like a delegate or whatever, I was a, I was a delegate. I helped select the 37 delegates from Colorado, which I did in 2016 as well. Um, and um, cuz my organization used to get deeply involved in that. I can't imagine we're ever gonna do that again. And I, and I went there and I got elected to what I thought was a sleepy kind of committee. Um, well, the rules committee and I went down there and you had to go a week bef in advance. I went down to Tampa, I sat down in the committee room and I realized, wow. There's, like, John Sunu knew, if you remember his name, he was, yeah. Um, from New Hampshire, used to be White House chief of staff. Staff, yeah. For Bush. Bush too, and Bush. And um, and there were, I don't know, probably a third of the, of the hundred people there were, uh, were members of Congress or four members of Congress. You're like, and I'm looking around and I'm thinking, why are all these people on this rules committee? And then I realized it was cause the rules, it was during the, no, it'd always been the sleepy committee, but it was, um, during the MIT Romney era. Mm. And, and they were all very fearful of one person and they wanted to fix the rules for the committee so that in the future it would be very difficult for him to get the nomination. That was Rand Paul. Hmm. Oh. Um, Yeah. And at that time, Rand Paul was this upstart that they thought was going to, um, come in and, uh, upset the whole establishment, uh, of the Republican party. Right. And of course I was a very close, I'm a close friend of Ranson. Oh, cool.
Curt:
And, uh, tell him hi. If he ever comes to Colorado, I'd love to have him on the podcast. Viva Rand. Cause I, well cuz I came up with my, when in this time of the old town, Tuesdays. I had basically developed my political views on how things should be. And then like six months later, Ron Paul comes around, I'm like, yeah, what he said. Yeah. Um,
Dudley:
of course, in 2012 I was a Ron Paul delegate. Right.
Curt:
Um, well in 2008 was when this first happened for me. Yeah. Okay.
Dudley:
Okay. So, um, and, and, uh, it was very ugly. Uh, the rules committee fight. I ended up fighting with, uh, um, I don't know long, long stories, but, um, but uh, they tried to sneak it in, um, and hide some of the main leaders on our side who were trying to stop these rules. And in fact, the day of the convention, if you recall, there was a, yeah, there was a, a, a big, um, hurricane coming into, um, oh, that's right into Tampa. And uh, uh, I remember Scott Renfro and I were, um, body surfing the day that that came in, cuz the, the, they were very big waves. But anyway, the convention happened and, and they tried to convene the rules committee and in advance of a number of our people showing up. And, uh, I remember a young man, a young guy from Min, uh, attorney from Massachusetts, What had a, had our minority report in his hand. I turned around, he had a minority report in our, in his hand, and he was forearm, this old lady who was trying, she was saying, give me that back. Give me that back. And I found out this lady was a, a state senator from North Dakota Margaret City. Okay. And he was forearm her and look it off me. Lady smiling. And he, no, no, it was, he had stolen it from her. Oh. And he ripped it outta her hand. And he was looking at all the Romney people who were the sergeant in arms and smiling like, gee, look what I did for our side. And I'm like, you're stealing something from a little old lady. And, and I grabbed the hold of him. And I guess I threw him three rows, um, and he crashed. Did he delete this,
Ben:
you know? Yeah. Salt.
Dudley:
He crashed into, uh, uh, the, you know, fold up chair. I mean, you threw him
Curt:
gently into the folding chair. No, no. I threw him, nudged him.
Dudley:
And, um, I literally picked Perver. I literally, I'm a hockey player. I literally picked a guy up and threw him and uh, and I called it the dwarf toss, And, um, and, uh, and he's like screaming, assault, assault. That's safe. And, uh, and it turned out he was, yeah, he was trying to stop our minority report, which it ended up being John Boehner who actually stopped our minority report on the floor. Oh, that was a funny story. That's one comes to mind in, in politics and the very rare occasion in which people tried to get physical with you. I'm active. Yeah. Screw you. Um, and, you know, okay. So it is, yeah. I don't know. I gu I guess I got known for that and got known for
Curt:
That was part of what launched you into notoriety kind of.
Dudley:
Well, le I led a walk out of, uh, the 2016 convention against Trump. Um Oh really? This Colorado delegation? Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Which had, um, Roger Stone actually said he was gonna send, he told a reporter who called me a Wall Street Journal reporter, called me up and said, uh, Roger Stones says he is gonna send his thugs pipe, wielding thugs to your hotel tonight, for your walkout. And I said, you give that bastard my room number, will you and
Curt:
I'm like, I'm a gun lobbyist. Whatcha, are you gonna do Right? Threaten me. Send it in bitches.
Dudley:
Yeah, I mean, bring it on. Get, pick a number. Do you want piece of who cares? Pick a number.
Curt:
Yeah. All right, Ben, you're up. Yeah. Your local experience. Oh, man. Oh, Dudley, we can let you go. I have to go. Appreciate you being here. See, man. Um, any, oh, where do people find you? Take the, take the rest of the Taylor, is that you take the,
Ben:
eh, Taylor, my friend. Why
Curt:
he's giving it to you. Say, thanks for being on my Buddy Kurt's podcast. This is,
Dudley:
I'm paying, you're paying me for being on his podcast. There
Curt:
you go. You're paying his, well share it abundantly. Get us some new followers and stuff. Anyway, see you brother. Good, thanks. See you, man. Thanks, Dudley.
Ben:
Yeah. My, uh, my Loco experience, uh, yeah. Um, your crazy experience, man. I, I don't live a crazy life. Uh, you
Curt:
are fairly conservative guy. Yeah, man. Um, which means it so crazy for you to be out here with Dudley on this.
Ben:
Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's the craziest thing that's happened to me. Uh, you know, I would just say the pandemic, uh, in general. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, uh, in this moment of, of operating these, these two companies, uh, yeah. Or, or, or
Curt:
being involved. Well, plus you were an oil field company that saw the price go to Zero at the time. Yeah. I will never forget
Ben:
at that time was, yeah, it was, um, you know, the pandemic really kind of started for us. So we're, was March 21st, if I recall. I think it was a Monday after, um, I think it was w t I dropped to 16 to$18. Right. Over the weekend, or, or Right. Uh, late on Sunday, if I remember, the markets had, had opened up already. And so that Monday, I remember we had hired a few guys that were supposed to start on that Monday, I think it was March 21st and. and it looked like the world was starting to shut down and my wife calling saying, saying, Hey, they're thinking about should I really hire these people? Yeah. Shutting, you know, shutting the schools for a couple
Curt:
of couple weeks and you, the, the freaking cfo, right? Like Yeah. Effectively.
Ben:
Yeah. And, and, and, uh, you know, again, good, good perspective. We, you know, I've got a, I've got partners in each of these companies, so, so, you know, uh, a cumulatively we're making these decisions and, and so it's not just, you know, in a vacuum, you know, by myself. But, but we're looking at all these, these issues and, and, um, on the oil and gas side, yeah, it drops, uh, from March 21st until April 20th. It was April 20th, 2020. I will never forget, and Cameron and I are, we went to Chick-fil-A to drown our sorrows in some, some chicken nuggets. Yeah. Uh, as we watched, and the stock, the, the oil prices went from, you know, and they, and they go to 10 and they go to eight and they go to six. And we're watching it real time, and it gets to two, and Cameron looks at me, and, and Cameron has always been kinda like the oil whisperer. He, I, I always would ask him like, Hey, where's oil gonna be in a month? And he would just, he was just always on. He just had this, you know, this, this ability to, to consider, you know, what was going on. And, um, and he goes, oh my gosh, I guess it can go to zero. That's what he told me. And it was about$2 at the time, and it hits, you know, close to zero, and then it says negative$4, Right. And, you know, we have this app and we're, we're refreshing it. And it says negative$6, it says negative$8. And we, we, we, being, you know, Cameron, I and, and Brad and Casey and a couple of guys, we, and we just
Curt:
had some major like storage solutions for oil, so
Ben:
Oh my gosh. Could have been a shitload of Oh, it was amazing. And we walk outside and we ended up, we were, it, it was, it was April, it was sunny outside and we had nothing that we could do our, you know, so our customers had shut down and we just started washing Cameron's car. It just, it made, you know, you're, you're just silent And, um, and Cameron and I got in his car and we drove to Chick-fil-A and ate some chicken nuggets. And we, when we pulled this thing up and I will never get, and it got down to, was it negative$38? I have a, I have a screenshot it. Yeah. Whatever, something, it just in silence we're just sitting there going like, well, there it is. That's the end of the world, you know,
Curt:
right? Yeah. If the world no longer wants to pay for oil, but actually needs to pay to get rid of it,
Ben:
dude, it was just, the whole thing is messed up. Yeah. And yeah, and, and, and not only was our business at the time, largely affected by the direct cost of oil, but of course everybody's business is direct. Is, is, yeah. You know, impacted by the indirect cost of oil and, and, um, and so there's these, you know, second and third order effects. And yet, um, so we applied for P p P as most companies and we followed it to the T and we hired guys back and we paid them to, you know, to. Clean the floors and, and paint equipment. You know, we, we complied to, to the nth degree of, of the spirit of that, that entire transaction. And, um, and I, and I feel good about that, you know, I, I, but, um, it was very, it was very interesting because I, I juxtapose that with, um, with Kinetic Research Group, which I'm also involved with, and I got partners over there. Yeah. And we're considering all these things going on. And so we applied for p p at ng. And so I said, Hey guys, we need to apply on the K R G side. I said, and we need to apply for P P P just in case. And I applied for P P P and um, and then as ng, the, the oil and gas company starts seeing these, you know, dramatic decreases in revenue because literally our guys cannot work, right? Kr g the gun literal, literally wants hire them, starts picking up, right? And so at the same time, I have, you know, uh, a 60% decrease in revenue in g I have a 35% increase in revenue in krg. Yeah. And what a, um, oh man, just this, this, this, like the dichotomy of it, oh, this like schism and, and it just back and forth and, and, and of course n g is significantly larger. And so that, that, you know, that's the one that kept me up at night, making sure the guys were getting paychecks. Man, I. I just, people who vilify business owners, they, they, they don't understand or perhaps they haven't dealt with the right business owner who actually cares. Who actually cares, man. And you know, when, when Cameron walks in my office and he says, you know, take my salary to zero because you can't take it to the less than zero, you know? Right. Just take it to zero. Yeah. We have to make sure that we get through this. And, um, and I got guys walking to my office saying, Hey, cut my salary so that we can get through this. And, and, you know, scrimping and saving and calling our insurance company and calling our, our, our
Curt:
debt got like three new ads trying to hire production people for your
Ben:
gun Manufac. Yes. And then the gun side is going nuts. And we're, and I'll tell you in our, and our, you know, our, our partners over there were going like, what in the world? So, um, so I ended up, I, I took a, a, we qualified for p p p money on the K R G side, and it wasn't much. It's again, a small company and they deposit the money in my checking account at the same time my business takes off. Approximately two weeks later, we, we paid the, uh, gosh, maybe it was four weeks. Anyway, we, we paid the money back to the bank, a hundred percent of it on the krg side. And the bank said, we don't know what to do with this. Mm-hmm. because you're the only company who's paid the money back. Right. So I thought that was interesting as well. It's just, it taught me so much, man. I, I,
Curt:
no, that was a really philosophical thing. Oh, dude, we could
Ben:
have a out, we could have a
Curt:
podcast entirely on pandemic, dude. Like the PPP money was forgivable, right? Like it's forgivable.
Ben:
And now at the time, remember only, like, it wasn't, it wasn't forgivable. It was, it was am ties over a long period of time. They
Curt:
didn't know. Would you regret that or does it
Ben:
make you feel more, I don't know if I'd say regret, but rather in like in hindsight, hindsight's always 2020. Like if I could do it again, uh, like the self side of me is like, I should have fired everybody, taken all the money, put it in a checking account and done nothing. We didn't need to do that. And you don't? No. We spent all of it on employees and making payments and making lease payments and keeping our insurance going. And, and, and you understand that like, hey, if you don't pay your insurance, it lapses right? And it goes away if you don't pay your four, you know, if you don't, you don't match the 401k that you said you're gonna do. It lapses and it goes away and you get fined. If you don't keep your, you know, your, your benefits going, they lapse and they go away. So it's not, it's not just making the, the actual payroll. It's all these, these second and third order. Yeah, yeah. You know, uh, uh, uh, you know, effects that can occur if, if you don't keep your business sustained. Um, we didn't benefit at all. I shouldn't say like, Hey, we kept the business going, which was the benefit, but we didn't financially benefit directly from, from, you know, this, this money on, on Theng side. Right? I mean, it, it sustained. It's
Curt:
sustained. We did,
Ben:
we could have died otherwise we would've died. I mean, heck, the government ran a Mac truck through the front door of our business, basically and, um, you know, and said, yeah, you're shut down. Um, and, and then again, we have, uh, on the KRG side where we, about 75% of our business is run, is direct sales on the internet. Right. Uh, and boy, I mean, think about that. If the internet didn't exist, right? Right. And so, um, people, uh, again, another huge philosophical discussion. People sat at home and were given money. and what do they do with it? They spend money on the internet, new guns, and they're, oh, and then, and then the, um, you know, uh, summer of love happens and, you know, people are, are, uh, peacefully protesting
Curt:
mostly peacefully in Portland. Yes. Mostly
Ben:
peacefully. And, uh, and they start buying guns and they start buying accessories for their firearms. And so again, just this weird dichotomy of, of, of a business that creates a lot of value that just gets, you know, decimated and has, you know, a hundred employees on this other business that creates value in, in, in a way
Curt:
of only gonna really niche fashion
Ben:
and, and, and, yeah. Very niche and, and second amendment. And that just blows up because it's chaotic, right? And so it's kinda like the idea of, of what is it, you know, alcohol and, and cigarettes. Sales do really well at downturns, right? Uh, so do guns. Yeah. Um, well, well, when there's the right downturn, when, when it's, when there's political turmoil, firearms do well when it's just, uh, inflation and people don't have as much discretionary income that's been given to them by the government, uh, they then, then that can back off. And so, so now, um, as a bunch of, uh, service industries, uh, weren't able to take care of deteriorating infrastructure from 2020, now those businesses in GE. starts picking up again. Mm-hmm. And then krg, it's doing very, it continues to do well. It continues to grow, but not nearly at the rate as when people had discretionary money Right. Given to them by the government and they were sitting on the couch, here's free
Curt:
money, want a gun? Yeah.
Ben:
You know? And so, um, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's more of an, of an encouragement to, to business owners that, um, you can have the exact same thing happen to you, and on one side of the spectrum it looks rosy and on the other side it looks like death. Yeah. And, um, just hang in there. Agreed. Just hang in there. It, you know, business is not, if
Curt:
you believe in what you're doing and you believe it adds a value to the world, hang in there. I'll come around.
Ben:
Hang in there, man. And we don't do this for a two year perspective or a five year perspective. We do this ongoing in, in perpetuity. Right. And, um, you know, there's somebody who, who once reminded me that like, uh, I think it's, I'm, gosh, I think it's like the Japanese culture, you know, here in the United States, we think in like three to five year plans. Yeah. In Japan, they have a hundred year plans. Yeah. You know, I don't know if that's true or not, but, but it seems that way. Um, I think we need to have a little bit longer perspective. I think sometimes we, we plan for what. What is my year end EBITDA going to be? Right? Instead of, you know, what is my 10 year plan?
Curt:
What is my 10 year, what am I gonna sell to my customers in five years from now? It's my
Ben:
30 year goal with this thing, you know, let's, let's make a long term decision, not a short term decision. So it's probably not as, uh, quite as, as as chaotic or, or, or boisterous or, yeah.
Curt:
Ca you didn't slide a motorcycle out in a race and call
Ben:
a man or anything. Yeah. I didn't have this come to Jesus moment. No, but that's real though. Yeah. It was the 16,
Curt:
16 that, that cut of me is
Ben:
very real. It absolutely impacted my life. Um, and I take, I take, uh, boy experience from going through a financial downturn as a banker. Um, it seemed like, uh, you know, it was largely us bankers that were like, duh, the world's crashing down. I mean, yeah, dude, the entire, you know, the economy. But as bankers, we were like, oh, dude, right. We, we really screwed up. And to take that and go, okay. You know, um, just, just have the right perspective on life. Um, I still had a marriage. I still had three kids. Um, it was more important to come home and to be balanced and to, to set aside the angst and the turmoil and the challenge of the day, and to be present as a father and a husband than it was to add another zero to my bank account. Yeah. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world yet lose his.
Curt:
I think we talked about that before. Yeah.
Ben:
That, that's it. The pandemic.
Curt:
That's my challenge. We'll, probab probably come back to it again. I think we should. Got speed,
Ben:
Ben. Yeah. Thanks Kurt. See you man.
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