EPISODE 196 | Forrest Cramer shares his journey from artist to luxury furniture craftsman, blending old-school values with heirloom-quality design

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Welcome back to the Loco Experience podcast.

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My guest today is Forrest Kramer, luxury furniture artist.

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Welcome to the podcast.

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Thank you.

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Thanks for having me.

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So, uh, I guess my first question, you know based on you're a little younger than me But did you get like run forest run?

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teasing As like a grade school or middle school is that that was actually high school high school middle high school yeah, and actually, you know, I I think probably for Maybe four or five years, I refused to see the movie because as soon as it came out, it was, it was run, forced run and, you know, laugh is like a box of chocolates, you know?

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And so all that, yeah, so I, it took me a while to actually like consent to see the movie cause I got so sick of all the lines and, um, but yeah, you know, when I saw it, of course it's a great movie.

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Yeah.

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Well, you probably felt that you should have thought earlier.

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I should have.

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Yeah, but like I was feeling teased, I should have been feeling like.

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Oh, sweet.

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You think I'm like Forrest Gump?

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That's awesome.

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Well, yeah, I mean, he is a little bit slow, but yeah.

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Well, very accomplished.

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And you know, funny that now I, I have the, uh, you know, shortly after I saw the movie, we went to the Bubba Gump Shrimp Company when it was up in, I think it was in Breckenridge.

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Yes.

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I think is what I had it, it was there for a long time.

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I'm not sure if it still is or, yeah, I don't think it is anymore.

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But, um, yeah, so I bought the Run Forest Run license plate that I now have in my shop.

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So, um, you know, it's, I've definitely gotten over my.

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So tell me, uh, tell me about luxury furniture artists, like, um, maybe just give me an example of, of what that is.

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Actually means you could make me a coffee table that's nicer than this one.

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Um, you know, potentially Pretty sure because it's splitting on the scene right there.

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I think it was 47 Yeah, I can go a little bit higher than 47, um, yeah, so luxury furniture, um, really what that what that comes down to when when I talk about luxury furniture, especially as art is, you know, Anybody everybody needs furniture Um, and really just taking that to the next level.

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Um, I think in two ways.

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One is just the quality.

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Um, you know, I build really to be generational heirloom quality furniture.

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It's you know, it's all solid wood.

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It's 300 years from now.

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Yeah, you might have had to have it at the Antiques Roadshow.

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You might have had to refinish it once or twice to keep the finish in good condition, but the furniture isn't going to be falling apart.

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Yeah.

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And then secondarily, really just taking, um, you know, a dining table or a console table or just any, any piece of furniture that you need.

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And instead of just being Purely functional to make it art to make it a centerpiece of the house And to really make a statement and so a lot of times that includes bentwoods.

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Sometimes it includes carving It really just depends on the client's personality I was gonna say are you doing this for the client like you're trying to figure out?

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Yep, what art fits right with them in their house?

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Yeah, and so, you know, it tends to be very relational I'll meet with I'll meet with a client and You know, first of it is just observation of the surroundings.

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What is it, you know, what am I walking into here?

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What, try to get a feel for what art they have on the wall.

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Do they love Japanese?

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Do they have a lot of like super modern art?

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Are they very traditional?

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Um, to just get a feel of their aesthetic and then their personality as well.

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I mean, there's a lot of people that are very.

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A lot of my clients are very, uh, reserved, very, um, just kind of low key, and a lot of times those tend to be people who are more traditional.

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There are some people that are very, like, forward and outgoing, and they like really bold.

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Edgy.

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Edgy pieces that, you know, a lot of times what that means is we're going to do something that has a lot of color in it, a lot of, um, you know, bold, like black contrasted with natural wood.

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Or there's one client that I have, we're actually going to get, uh, we're going to bring in some blue and it's curly maple, which has got a really wild grain to it.

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And then it's going to have, um, blue kind of a green, blue leg in contrast with the gray.

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And so, um, yeah, the design process really is just kind of gauging a lot of that.

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And then designing something that really speaks to that personality and their style.

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Um, and like I said, it runs a very wide range.

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Um, my background, I have a, a deep background in antique restoration and very, very traditional woodworking methods.

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Um, and then also have kind of pushed into a lot of more modern designs as well.

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So I've got a really wide range that I can design in.

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And.

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How do you get good at the relational part?

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Like, I have to think that the designs are somewhat living in your head, and you're trying to pull them out and matchmake to the right person a little bit?

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Yeah, and This person that's your client?

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Yeah, and so really, it can be challenging at times, because sometimes, you know, when you have a one or a two hour meeting with someone, and you're trying to really get a feel for something that is going to be in their house for, the rest of their life, potentially.

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It's, it can be a heavy burden.

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It can be a challenge.

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And you know, I don't, it's, it's funny.

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I don't always nail that first time.

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I'm assuming you're doing like sketches or something, or maybe it's even like Computer stuff where you can do 3D kind of designs first and be like, Hey, before I spend 89 hours carving this thing.

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For sure.

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For sure.

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Yeah, so you know, a lot of times what the process looks like is when I first sit down with them, we'll just kind of talk ideas and I'll typically get out, I've just got a little, you know, a little pad that I can sketch some ideas on and just gauge from them, Okay, is this the right direction or is that the right direction?

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Okay.

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You know, if you start sketching something out that's really modern and you're like, yeah, that's not the direction I want to go.

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Um, you can gauge that pretty quickly.

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And a lot of times when I walk away from that first meeting, I'll have kind of a concept of like, okay, here's my, you know, the basic size, here's the basic design, the basic style that they like.

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And then within that, it's just go dream.

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And put up some proposals kind of, is this all wood?

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You're not building couches or do you put cushions on the dining room chairs or anything like that?

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So, you know, because of my experience in antique furniture, um, I did learn to upholster.

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I did learn to cane.

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I did learn to do a lot of these other skills.

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I don't know about cane.

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I don't know about wood.

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Uh, like, you know, the old style cane chairs that have like the, like a rush seat or something like that.

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So, um, you know, I can do that upholstery.

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I pretty much, um, you know, I'll leave that to the professionals.

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Um, it could be a part of your piece, but you, it can be a part of it, but I'll contract it out.

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Yep.

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Same with steel.

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Um, I design a lot.

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That incorporates steel and I work color, texture, strength, um, usually just a design element.

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Okay.

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Um, as you know, if somebody wants it to be bomb proof steel, you know, yeah, steel is a steel band around the outside of it and tighten it down.

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Good.

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Exactly, exactly.

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But a textural element where you have wood grain.

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That tends to be very organic, very, a lot of movement in it.

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And then steel can be pretty flat blank slate kind of thing.

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Um, I do, you know, I do do some with, um, like custom patinas.

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And so you'll have different like chemical agents that you can spray on steel.

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That'll change the color.

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You can go down to black.

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You can make it look like bronze.

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You can make it look like brass.

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I mean, there's a lot of different things you can do.

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And so I.

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You know, I've had a fair bit of experience doing that, but most of it really just comes to a design element and whether we want to incorporate steel as part of the design, um, done some work with glass again, subcontract the glass cutting, but it's just a design element within a piece.

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And it's really, I guess, uh, like if you're contracting out the glass cutting, like it's a.

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It's a plan, like you've got almost a full, like, all the different dimensions, everything like that is all figured out, and you're building it to that.

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Sure, yeah, so going back to, right, going back to the process.

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So, you know, once we get through the initial, the initial phase, what my next step is, I'll sit down and put it into, I use SketchUp, um, and draw the whole thing out, three dimensional.

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with colors, with textures.

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A lot of times I'll actually import textures in, you know, I'll grab a photo off the web so that, you know, if it's going to be something that is like, for example, honey locust, I'll pull in a honey locust sample.

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And so they can really get a feel for the color, the texture, what it is that they're getting before.

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And, you know, they look at 3D renderings of that.

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And a lot of times I'll even draw it.

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Like I'll have dimensions of their room.

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I'll just kind of snap a couple of photos and I'll put a lot of those elements back in the drawing so that they can really visualize it in their room.

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Um, and then, um, yeah, so at that point then they have dimensions, they have, you know, all the renderings gives them some ammunition to actually make a good decision on.

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And is this like, talk to me about like the, are these one offs or do people have a set time?

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You know, a whole dining set might be a combination, but also could just be a coffee table or a buffet.

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Sure.

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I, I've done both.

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Um, I think design wise, you know, from interior design perspective, 20, 30 years ago, I think sets were in vogue.

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People would be like, okay, I want a whole dining room suite where everything matches.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And then I don't know, you know, I'm not sure why.

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design went away from that.

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Lately, it feels like, okay, so you have a theme that everything kind of fits in, but then you have accent pieces here and accent pieces there.

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And so you're not, you know, it's been kind of out of vogue for quite a while to actually have everything match.

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Um, a lot of it is contrast.

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You know, you'll have a really clean, modern dining table, and then you'll have kind of funky chairs to go along with it.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Um, or, you know, a coffee table that is really just a contrasting accent piece.

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Um, uh, There's a lot of people who design very modern houses and then they'll put in a very traditional, almost antique, like French antique with the paint and the color and all of that.

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That just really is a pop in the middle of a very otherwise clean, straight home.

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Interesting.

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Really calls your attention to that.

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Yeah.

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These crooked lines all of a sudden.

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It's, you know, it's, it's kind of a way of adding texture and color.

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is contrasting to the more, you know, a lot of modern is a lot of grays, a lot of blacks, a lot of whites, a lot of like straight lines.

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And so to add something that is.

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More figured.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Adds that little pop of color and interest to an otherwise relatively, you know, straight, flat room.

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And who, who are your clients?

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Like, are you going all over the country to make and sell these pieces?

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Or do you gotta go there?

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Do you Zoom with people kinda sometimes?

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Um, most of my, most of my career, On my own has been focused in Northern Colorado.

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Okay.

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Um, I've shipped a, I've shipped a few pieces to Texas.

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I've taken one to Montana.

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You know, I've had some pieces that go, that have gone across the country.

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That's been the exception rather than the rule.

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Okay.

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Um, one of my goals over the last year has been to kind of expand that because of the nature of who is my client.

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So we just don't have that many.

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Really wealthy right people right quite a few but not that many.

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Yeah, we definitely have some wealthy people here Because we're talking about ten twenty fifty thousand hundred thousand dollar pieces, right?

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Yeah, for sure Yeah, for sure.

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Yeah, we don't do much for ten, right?

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You know, I think You know and that's definitely changed over the last five years Um, with, you know, some of it's inflation, some of it's just really pushing into the art realm.

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Um, you know, I've, I've had, you know, some of my clientele that were more, you know, basic pieces early on that have come back and, you know, it's like, we're kind of tipping on that edge of like, Oh, I can't really, you know, afford.

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You know, what you're doing now versus what you did when you first started.

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I mean, starting off, you kind of do anything and everything that comes in.

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So I did a lot of cabinetry.

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I did a lot of other things that, um, you know, as I've kind of focused my efforts on art furniture, it's definitely narrowed, you know, the price has gone up and it's narrowed the clientele.

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So, yeah.

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Um, you know, my, I think when I started the whole process of, you know, a new website and rebrand in the last year or so, you know, my goal was.

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I'm going to center in Northern Colorado, but I want to be relevant nationwide.

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So if someone, you know, someone in LA or someone in New York looks at my website, it's like, it's, it's not something that they're like, Oh, this is, you know, this is a small town builder there, you know, we're not going to ship across the country from this guy.

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It's like, no, this guy has something to offer.

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This guy has chosen to live in Northern Colorado, despite the fact that he's a luxury furniture artist.

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Right.

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could sell to anybody.

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Sure.

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And so, you know, they wouldn't hesitate to reach out and, you know, yeah, well, you could fly out to LA if you're going to sell a handful of pieces of whatever you can.

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Yeah.

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Without that personal relational experience.

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Yeah, for sure.

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For sure.

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And it, you know, I think it may, you know, may start as a zoom call just to get a feel for, you know, what their level of interest is.

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Plane tickets every time somebody puts your contact page in.

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No, I think that makes a lot of sense.

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I mean, if that's what you want to do, right?

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Like, are you just you?

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Do you have any helpers, like sanding wood or cutting things?

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No, as far as it goes with the build right now, it's just me.

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Okay, so it's very much a craftsman kind of a business.

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It is.

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Uh, pretty much a craftsman industry.

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Yeah, and really when it comes to it, um, you know, when, when someone approaches me, Um, as an artist, they're really, you know, they're buying the furniture, but they have to buy into me.

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They have to buy into believing in, you know, my work and my ethic and, you know, and all of that.

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And, um, you know, there are pieces that are huge and I have to bring in people to help.

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I mean, I've had five, six guys helping me carry tables before that, you know, the 16 foot long table that, you know, weighs probably close to a thousand pounds.

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I mean, you need a couple of guys to carry that around.

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Um, so I do have some guys that I can call on and I've had some people come in and help.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, where's your studio or where do you where do you do the work?

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So I my shop is up in Bellevue studio It is a studio it's a studio with a with an overhead garage door and a lot of wood dust Yeah, so no, it's it's up in Bellevue kind of right at the edges of foothills.

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Sure So right by morning fresh dairy, you know, I know the neighborhood.

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I'm a motorcycle rider.

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So I've been past your place at a higher rate of speed than published on the roadside more than a few times.

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Probably so.

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Wrist Canyon is actually one of the most amazing places in the country, um, for motorcycling because Really?

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the culture, well it's a great little road, first of all, but the culture of Wrist Canyon, I would say 70 to 80 percent of cars, when they see you catching up to them, um, at a faster pace, pull over and let you pass.

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Really?

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Yeah, it's just the, it's like everybody just, they're all locals, right?

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They're just like, eh, go have fun, you know?

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Yeah, nobody goes up wrist, you know, unless they're like on your way to something.

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Yeah, and well, and bicyclists too.

00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:23.089
I mean, I think Wrist Canyon for bicycles is hugely popular.

00:18:23.089 --> 00:18:23.910
Very much so, yeah.

00:18:24.299 --> 00:18:24.529
Yeah.

00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:24.809
Nope.

00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:31.539
So anyway, that's, uh, for what it's worth, I've barely been to any other place in the country where drivers just get out of your way as a motorcycle.

00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:32.579
That's interesting.

00:18:32.609 --> 00:18:32.869
Yeah.

00:18:33.069 --> 00:18:33.960
Which makes it really fun.

00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:34.660
Did not know that.

00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:38.960
But yeah, definitely, definitely have gotten passed by bicyclists going down this canyon.

00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:45.900
You know, they hit some of those, those straightaways and they're just like, I've been nearly passed on my motorcyclist, Mike, by bicyclists.

00:18:46.099 --> 00:18:46.789
I believe it.

00:18:46.789 --> 00:18:47.440
I believe it.

00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:48.109
Down those hills.

00:18:48.259 --> 00:18:48.569
Yep.

00:18:48.660 --> 00:19:06.065
Um, so, so you, you kind of have this process where you have this engagement, you start You know, do some sketches, you ultimately have a nice rendering, and then, okay, here's the contract, pull the trigger, here's the deposit, you probably get like half up front or something, because materials are expensive.

00:19:06.065 --> 00:19:08.295
Yeah, materials are definitely high, for sure.

00:19:08.734 --> 00:19:09.744
And where do you source?

00:19:10.815 --> 00:19:13.305
I'm assuming you can't just go down to the Home Depot and get the right kind of wood.

00:19:13.315 --> 00:19:14.305
Yeah, definitely not Home Depot.

00:19:15.565 --> 00:19:22.714
Even Sutherland's is probably Yeah, uh, no, no, it's definitely, um, you know, more your specialty lumber shops.

00:19:22.795 --> 00:19:31.634
Um, here, you know, I make it a priority a lot of times to buy as local as I can as far as, um, there's a, there's an urban mill here at Baldwin Hardwoods.

00:19:31.704 --> 00:19:40.335
Um, he, you know, he gets a lot of like the ash and the walnut, uh, elms, honey locust, those types of woods that are a lot more unique.

00:19:40.845 --> 00:19:41.194
Yeah.

00:19:41.224 --> 00:19:41.755
Um.

00:19:42.055 --> 00:19:43.194
And they're locally harvested, too.

00:19:43.204 --> 00:19:44.384
They're locally harvested, yeah.

00:19:44.384 --> 00:19:45.454
City things and stuff.

00:19:46.214 --> 00:19:55.234
Um, you know, I've done, I have a client who has property right up there by my shop and they took down five or six walnut trees, we had them milled.

00:19:55.494 --> 00:19:55.704
Oh, wow.

00:19:55.704 --> 00:19:59.444
And, you know, eventually built six or eight pieces of furniture for them.

00:19:59.565 --> 00:20:00.025
Wow.

00:20:00.115 --> 00:20:04.755
Um, and so there's, there's definitely something that ties some memory.

00:20:04.934 --> 00:20:13.994
When you have a local tree, or especially something that's, I've, I've, I've done a lot of work for people where they had, you know, their walnut tree died, they had to cut the walnut tree down.

00:20:14.414 --> 00:20:16.664
Let's, let's keep that memory right here.

00:20:16.664 --> 00:20:23.015
This, you know, this table on, you know, in my dining room used to be, you know, used to be right out in my backyard.

00:20:23.125 --> 00:20:29.305
I think that's, uh, like it's those kinds of stories, honestly, that will really get people attracted to your work.

00:20:29.535 --> 00:20:34.954
Right, and I think that when it comes to, when it comes to luxury furniture.

00:20:35.984 --> 00:20:41.105
furniture, it really becomes less about it being a piece of furniture and more about it being a story.

00:20:41.224 --> 00:20:41.585
Yeah.

00:20:41.974 --> 00:20:46.914
So sometimes, um, sometimes the story is this was a tree in my backyard.

00:20:46.914 --> 00:20:48.174
That's now my dining table.

00:20:48.904 --> 00:20:55.015
Um, sometimes I have one client, um, they said, build me a table for a mermaid.

00:20:55.815 --> 00:20:57.045
And it's like, what does that mean?

00:20:57.845 --> 00:21:06.464
Um, and, So the, you know, those are the challenges sometimes that, that create the most rewarding pieces of furniture.

00:21:07.035 --> 00:21:15.535
Um, where, you know, what ended up happening with that table is I built it on honey locust, which if anybody knows honey locust, it's a very, very wild grain.

00:21:16.154 --> 00:21:23.055
And so, you know, when you think about like the sea and just the wildness of the waves, and so that, you know, that comes through.

00:21:23.644 --> 00:21:26.484
Yeah, and the, the wood grain is very, very similar.

00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:38.650
Um, and then, but we contrasted that with an inlay, a brass that was kind of a fan shape that if you look at like a seashell and you kind of see that like fan shaped rib in the seashell.

00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:42.950
So it has this brass inlay that cuts through that wild wood grain.

00:21:42.980 --> 00:21:43.480
Mm hmm.

00:21:44.684 --> 00:21:49.025
the honey locust is very, um, kind of a pinkish orange color.

00:21:49.214 --> 00:21:49.595
Oh, really?

00:21:49.625 --> 00:21:56.305
And so you kind of have, there was this like wild wood grain, very feminine, like pink color.

00:21:56.654 --> 00:21:59.884
The brass was very soft in, in its tone.

00:22:00.464 --> 00:22:03.615
And the shell kind of symbolism.

00:22:03.625 --> 00:22:03.984
Yeah.

00:22:03.984 --> 00:22:07.890
But it also had to be large and like really strong.

00:22:07.940 --> 00:22:10.799
And the honey looks, you know, is, is a very tough wood.

00:22:11.230 --> 00:22:17.960
And so there was just a lot of design elements that we kind of put together there where it's like, it's masculine and it's feminine at the same time.

00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:21.920
You have the wild wood grain, you have the, the strength of the brass, you know.

00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:29.779
So there's a lot of like give and take in the balance and, and some very, um, unique design elements.

00:22:29.829 --> 00:22:45.809
And, you know, There's you know that to me is the story of that table is like here's a table for a mermaid It's you know, it has to fit a bunch of different design Concepts in a really unique way that's unique to that client.

00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:57.025
Yeah when we Um, you know, you have, especially when you have strong personalities on both, both sides, you know, it's like, I want this, I want this, like, how do you blend those together?

00:22:57.065 --> 00:23:03.904
And in that particular case, like when I finally came down to the final design on that, both of them were like, this is amazing.

00:23:03.904 --> 00:23:06.694
This is exactly, it's like, this is totally me.

00:23:06.694 --> 00:23:07.545
This is totally me.

00:23:07.545 --> 00:23:12.994
And then two separate people, and they're like, this is a hundred percent like my personality and it speaks to that.

00:23:13.525 --> 00:23:15.454
And so those are, those are the ones that are really fun.

00:23:15.464 --> 00:23:16.434
Cause it's just a win.

00:23:16.444 --> 00:23:16.464
Yeah.

00:23:17.404 --> 00:23:22.575
What a fascinating gift to make as like a wedding gift or something like that.

00:23:22.644 --> 00:23:23.244
Oh, for sure.

00:23:23.244 --> 00:23:27.595
You know, if you're a wealthy parent and you wanted to treat your kids to something cool.

00:23:27.634 --> 00:23:29.964
That would be quite a wedding gift for sure.

00:23:29.964 --> 00:23:30.974
For sure.

00:23:31.154 --> 00:23:37.694
Um, so, like, how, I guess, I want to, I want to learn how you get into this.

00:23:37.694 --> 00:23:42.984
I remember from our first conversation that you, like, kind of fell into being like a, a violin player.

00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:45.009
Repair guy or something.

00:23:45.569 --> 00:23:45.799
Yeah.

00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:47.509
So that was my official training.

00:23:47.869 --> 00:23:56.099
Um, but, but what else would you have, you know, know about like where you're at today, what you're doing, what's your, why about pivoting to that?

00:23:56.099 --> 00:23:59.559
Where is it, was it just production cabinet making was just.

00:23:59.904 --> 00:24:05.315
Too much, too annoying, um, I just want to make these really cool things.

00:24:05.375 --> 00:24:05.555
Sure.

00:24:05.555 --> 00:24:06.384
I'm an artist, dammit.

00:24:06.384 --> 00:24:06.615
Sure.

00:24:06.944 --> 00:24:09.684
Well, so I think, well, you know, art.

00:24:09.694 --> 00:24:10.335
A lot of questions, sorry.

00:24:10.345 --> 00:24:11.305
Yeah, no, that's fine.

00:24:11.315 --> 00:24:13.954
So, tiny bit of life story, I guess.

00:24:14.065 --> 00:24:18.224
Um, art has just kind of been a part of my life from the very beginning.

00:24:18.315 --> 00:24:22.825
Um, I was very, art, you know, artistic things just came easy to me.

00:24:22.825 --> 00:24:24.765
When I was a kid, I drew all the time.

00:24:24.765 --> 00:24:28.605
Um, Um, when you're a kid, you never really give credence to how good you are.

00:24:28.605 --> 00:24:34.694
And it, you know, to me, it's like, even now, it like kind of sounds a little bit arrogant and self serving to say that I was really good.

00:24:34.704 --> 00:24:40.464
But like looking back, like I found some old sketches that I did when I was, you know, like, yeah, six or eight years old.

00:24:40.464 --> 00:24:42.244
And I'm like, these were really good.

00:24:42.244 --> 00:24:45.924
Or when I was a teenager, I'm like, this is like legitimately good stuff.

00:24:45.984 --> 00:24:49.105
And, um, so art was always there.

00:24:49.559 --> 00:25:11.220
Um, I was also heavily involved in music growing up, um, strangely enough, I, you know, I ended up in playing a lot of Irish and bluegrass music, um, and so really I think what launched me into woodworking as a craft is I wanted to build a hammer dulcimer, um, cause of my, you know, background in like Celtic music.

00:25:11.329 --> 00:25:11.910
Oh yeah.

00:25:12.130 --> 00:25:14.890
So, um, it's like a keyboard you kind of look thing?

00:25:14.890 --> 00:25:15.130
Uh, no.

00:25:15.130 --> 00:25:17.500
So it's like a, it's like a trapezoid shaped instrument Okay.

00:25:17.500 --> 00:25:18.009
That you play.

00:25:18.009 --> 00:25:20.559
It's got like a bunch of strings that go across bridges.

00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:20.680
Yeah.

00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:21.490
And, and you play it with a hammer.

00:25:21.910 --> 00:25:22.210
Yeah.

00:25:22.210 --> 00:25:24.609
A little bit like a xylophone, but different Sure.

00:25:24.609 --> 00:25:26.319
Strings hammer the strings.

00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:26.529
Yeah.

00:25:26.529 --> 00:25:30.430
So it's, it's very similar in the stringing to a piano, but you play it with hammers.

00:25:30.430 --> 00:25:30.490
Yeah.

00:25:30.525 --> 00:25:30.684
Yeah.

00:25:30.700 --> 00:25:38.480
Um, and you know, it was really prominent in folk and, uh, folk and Irish music, you know, over the years.

00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:41.359
And so I bought a kit.

00:25:41.660 --> 00:25:45.059
and didn't like it because it just didn't sound good.

00:25:45.250 --> 00:25:49.180
And so I'm like, okay, I'm going to build one that's like, we're going to make one that sounds great.

00:25:49.180 --> 00:25:52.289
So I took what I learned from the first one, applied it to the second one.

00:25:52.289 --> 00:25:54.390
And I'm like, okay, this, like, this is good.

00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:54.900
This is good.

00:25:55.549 --> 00:25:58.930
And so that kind of, I did that actually as a 4 H project.

00:25:58.930 --> 00:26:04.839
And that just kind of like launched me into woodworking through 4 H and kept getting more ribbons and stuff.

00:26:04.849 --> 00:26:05.220
Yeah.

00:26:05.230 --> 00:26:08.700
Fast forward, fast forward after high school, I really was interested.

00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:09.819
I loved music.

00:26:09.890 --> 00:26:10.950
I had played music.

00:26:11.930 --> 00:26:22.355
I just, But I also loved woodworking, and so I had an opportunity here in Fort Collins to take a private apprenticeship with a violin maker who lives here.

00:26:22.545 --> 00:26:23.095
Oh, maker.

00:26:23.095 --> 00:26:23.285
I remember.

00:26:23.285 --> 00:26:24.924
Yeah, it was a violin maker.

00:26:25.045 --> 00:26:37.325
And, um, at first he, you know, had zero interest in teaching anybody, but We had some mutual friends that were just like, yeah, you know, he's a great, you know, he's a great woodworker So he agreed to do it.

00:26:37.375 --> 00:26:44.686
Um, so that kind of launched me into that and really I don't play violin, which is kind of strange Do you play a bunch of other stuff?

00:26:44.686 --> 00:26:46.914
I yeah, mainly just acoustic guitar.

00:26:46.994 --> 00:26:50.069
I've played, you know, I And Hammered Ulsamer.

00:26:50.109 --> 00:26:50.960
Yeah, and Hammered Ulsamer.

00:26:51.009 --> 00:26:55.450
I actually, so, I learned how to play the Irish bagpipes, the Ellenpipes.

00:26:55.569 --> 00:26:55.890
Oh.

00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:58.450
Um, so, you know, but I never got good at it.

00:26:58.460 --> 00:27:07.434
So, um, but to me the violin is just kind of the epitome of, music and acoustics and woodworking all put together.

00:27:08.035 --> 00:27:11.835
And so I learned, I learned how to build, um, two year apprenticeship.

00:27:11.875 --> 00:27:19.105
And in my twenties though, just didn't have the discipline to really buckle down and make a living out of it.

00:27:19.595 --> 00:27:28.075
And so I ended up working, um, at this, sorry, at a antique restoration shop, um, mainly just to make money.

00:27:28.085 --> 00:27:31.545
You know, it's like, you gotta make a living.

00:27:31.914 --> 00:27:48.325
And so over the years, um, uh, That just kept me busy enough that the violin making just kind of fell to the wayside B is antique restoration Financially good, you know, it's it's okay.

00:27:48.325 --> 00:28:04.734
I think you know as an employee It has its limits, right, you know mo I would say is most small businesses You reach a threshold where the entrepreneurial edge has to come out and you have to, you know, launch your own thing.

00:28:05.404 --> 00:28:10.575
Or, you know, you just work there and get enough raises and it's just like, okay, this is just kind of my day to day thing.

00:28:11.164 --> 00:28:15.265
Um, it was okay, but you know, it was, there was a lot of long hours.

00:28:15.545 --> 00:28:18.255
Yeah, it was just real hard work too, right?

00:28:18.255 --> 00:28:20.535
Like, you're always working and doing hard stuff.

00:28:20.625 --> 00:28:21.994
Which, I still do.

00:28:22.105 --> 00:28:22.795
Um, yeah.

00:28:23.505 --> 00:28:31.704
One of the things that was the most challenging there, though, was because you did chemical stripping, you're around, you know, a lot of really harsh chemicals.

00:28:31.964 --> 00:28:39.575
And I think the, the longevity of doing that and maintaining health is tough, for sure.

00:28:39.704 --> 00:28:47.815
Um, but just the overall work experience there, um, it wasn't long term what I wanted to do.

00:28:47.825 --> 00:28:48.194
Right, right, right.

00:28:48.194 --> 00:28:50.412
But it was building your skills toward the next steps.

00:28:50.412 --> 00:28:53.789
It was building skills, and so I mean, you couldn't be where you are today without that season.

00:28:53.789 --> 00:28:54.775
Right, exactly.

00:28:54.775 --> 00:29:01.125
And one of, what I, I would say one of the biggest things that I took away there was, um, well, two things.

00:29:01.125 --> 00:29:02.694
One was because I could carve.

00:29:03.045 --> 00:29:05.055
I was able to start doing reproduction work.

00:29:05.815 --> 00:29:14.115
So if we had, you know, well, the chair with a broken leg, well, at the simplest, at the simplest, it was like we had pieces that had come in and there'd be carvings that were missing.

00:29:14.875 --> 00:29:19.144
And so I would just easily be able to re carve carvings that were missing.

00:29:19.684 --> 00:29:22.275
Um, but it even, it even got to the point where.

00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:26.869
We had a couple clients who wanted a very specific thing, and they just couldn't find it.

00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:39.380
Um, so, my first big reproduction that I did was a big TV case for a client that they had a, a really narrow section between their fireplace and the outside wall.

00:29:40.144 --> 00:29:43.005
And they wanted this really nice Victorian piece for it.

00:29:43.005 --> 00:29:50.835
And so what I ended up making was this nine and a half foot tall Victorian, basically, armoire that had a fully carved crest on it.

00:29:50.855 --> 00:29:56.335
It, um, it looked fully Victorian, um, finished it.

00:29:56.615 --> 00:29:59.059
It was of a size that would have never been built at that time.

00:29:59.059 --> 00:30:00.275
It would have never been built.

00:30:00.315 --> 00:30:02.115
And they didn't have TVs back then.

00:30:02.164 --> 00:30:02.484
Right.

00:30:02.484 --> 00:30:02.865
Exactly.

00:30:03.345 --> 00:30:03.464
Exactly.

00:30:04.140 --> 00:30:10.769
Um, so that was what kind of launched me into furniture making, was really just taking apart furniture and then putting it back together.

00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:17.150
And when you take apart things that are falling apart, you see methods of building that don't work long term.

00:30:18.009 --> 00:30:25.279
When you're restoring things that, you know, they're 120, 150, 200 years old, and they're not coming apart.

00:30:25.309 --> 00:30:25.759
Right.

00:30:25.829 --> 00:30:28.150
You see the techniques that work.

00:30:28.674 --> 00:30:39.835
And so that was kind of where, when I started making furniture for myself, I'm like, okay, these are the techniques that I learned that are, you know, have held true, that are bomb proof.

00:30:39.835 --> 00:30:40.035
Yeah.

00:30:40.035 --> 00:30:44.724
That have held, you know, have held their strengths for a couple hundred years, a hundred years.

00:30:45.295 --> 00:30:48.525
And so you learn to build heirloom quality.

00:30:49.184 --> 00:30:53.515
By basically taking things apart, remaking, putting everything back together.

00:30:53.515 --> 00:30:58.045
Do you, uh, do you offer a warranty with these expensive pieces of luxury art furniture?

00:30:58.075 --> 00:31:03.125
Um, you know, I've never offered, um, an explicit warranty.

00:31:03.244 --> 00:31:08.434
But again, because it's relational, if anything happens, I'm a phone call away.

00:31:08.494 --> 00:31:08.744
Yeah.

00:31:09.194 --> 00:31:11.585
Have you, have you known something to come apart?

00:31:11.704 --> 00:31:17.865
I, well, so not to come apart, well, you know, I've had, um, wood, wood moves.

00:31:17.865 --> 00:31:17.914
Okay.

00:31:18.250 --> 00:31:31.650
Um, you know, and one, one specific piece that I had to deal with more recently, I built a dining room table, um, two big slabs that had glass down the center of them and one of the slabs warped and one of them stayed flat.

00:31:32.130 --> 00:31:35.660
And so what happens is your glass, you know, it just kind of pops it quite right.

00:31:35.700 --> 00:31:37.660
It just pops up on the edge.

00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:42.420
And so, um, that was three trips to Fraser.

00:31:43.025 --> 00:31:43.315
Okay.

00:31:43.315 --> 00:31:45.819
To, you know, to just get everything.

00:31:46.539 --> 00:31:48.430
And did you like, can you sand it down?

00:31:48.430 --> 00:31:49.299
Can you bend it back?

00:31:49.329 --> 00:31:49.660
No.

00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:50.559
Take the work out.

00:31:50.829 --> 00:31:58.829
What, you know, in the end what I ended up doing was just doing some steel reinforcement on the bottom to just kind of make sure the two, the two slabs stay aligned.

00:31:58.829 --> 00:31:58.920
Mm-Hmm.

00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:02.380
And then that the glass then stays where it should.

00:32:02.410 --> 00:32:09.730
But again, that's, that to me is part of the relational process where if somebody's gonna come to me and trust me to build.

00:32:09.789 --> 00:32:13.859
that I'm going to still be there to take care of that piece of furniture.

00:32:14.329 --> 00:32:23.400
Um, you know, and if, if somebody drops a pot on it and dings the top of it, you know, obviously that's not a warranty thing, but that's, I can fix it, but it's going to cost you.

00:32:23.470 --> 00:32:30.806
And typically, you know, the level of clientele that I have, they're not the type of people that will call me up and try to abuse a warrant.

00:32:30.806 --> 00:32:38.079
And so while I've never offered an express warranty, It's just been a relational thing where it's like, give me a call.

00:32:38.250 --> 00:32:38.660
Yeah.

00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:43.700
And, uh, you know, I'm going to be there because I stand by my work.

00:32:43.710 --> 00:32:49.309
I, you know, I've always sought to build at the highest quality that I can.

00:32:50.269 --> 00:32:59.039
And if for some reason, something I did didn't quite hold true, then I'm going to honor that and I'm going to come back and make sure that they're taken care of.

00:32:59.269 --> 00:33:03.990
Do you, uh, like pay attention to your industry overall?

00:33:04.029 --> 00:33:18.559
Are there like a handful of luxury art furniture makers that you're like guys work is just a little better than mine for sure Well, you know, so what at least they've got a better reputation and market presence.

00:33:18.609 --> 00:33:37.750
Sure Um, yeah, there's definitely a few people that that I look at um that are just kind of like Um, you know, there, there's somebody that, you know, one artist looking to another and saying they're better than me is a little bit, yeah, it's, it's selling than me.

00:33:37.769 --> 00:33:41.460
It's selling yourself short a little bit in the personality of who you are.

00:33:41.849 --> 00:33:46.599
There's definitely some people though that I look at and I'm like, I really love to just watch their work.

00:33:47.609 --> 00:33:53.019
Um, there's a guy named Greg class and out in Seattle who builds the river tables.

00:33:53.099 --> 00:33:55.680
So you've got the slabs with the glass down the center of them.

00:33:56.355 --> 00:33:59.335
Um, and he's really the pioneer of that whole concept.

00:33:59.414 --> 00:33:59.714
Okay.

00:33:59.744 --> 00:34:03.384
And, you know, he's, he's got pieces that have been shipped to Dubai.

00:34:03.394 --> 00:34:08.195
He just delivered one in, um, I think, I think it was in France.

00:34:08.764 --> 00:34:11.085
Um, but you know, he's shipping all over the world.

00:34:11.085 --> 00:34:11.164
Right.

00:34:11.164 --> 00:34:13.264
And sometimes personally delivering all over the world.

00:34:13.815 --> 00:34:16.815
Um, he makes absolutely beautiful pieces of furniture.

00:34:16.985 --> 00:34:25.659
And, you know, for me though, what it is, is looking at those guys and going, What have you done that's made you successful as the artist that you are?

00:34:26.769 --> 00:34:29.940
Um, not trying to Yeah, you're not trying to be them.

00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:31.030
Not trying to be them.

00:34:31.030 --> 00:34:43.300
And I think that's the, that's the danger a lot of times of people when they look at other artists and you, you kind of have this like, okay, I want to emulate them or I want to, you know, somehow assimilate something that they do into what I do.

00:34:43.300 --> 00:34:45.460
It's like, no, let's look at principles.

00:34:45.789 --> 00:34:49.019
that have made them successful and try to apply those same principles.

00:34:49.030 --> 00:34:49.590
Yeah, yeah.

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:58.389
Learn from some of the things that maybe they did wrong, but also take some of the ideas of, of what they've done right and go, okay, does that apply to my situation?

00:34:58.389 --> 00:35:01.119
How does that apply to my situation and really make it work?

00:35:01.670 --> 00:35:03.920
That's kind of like be the best you that you can be.

00:35:04.289 --> 00:35:05.590
Not sure.

00:35:05.619 --> 00:35:09.010
Don't try to be somebody else, but you can use other people's experience.

00:35:09.010 --> 00:35:09.730
And they're right.

00:35:10.434 --> 00:35:17.065
And have the humility to learn from others and go, Okay, so like, maybe in some ways they are better than me.

00:35:17.954 --> 00:35:19.545
So what can I learn from that?

00:35:19.554 --> 00:35:24.795
Not to, not to like, put myself down, but what can I learn from that that could make me better at what I do?

00:35:24.844 --> 00:35:25.164
Sure.

00:35:25.195 --> 00:35:25.724
Also.

00:35:26.385 --> 00:35:30.144
What would you, would you call yourself a master at this point in time?

00:35:30.204 --> 00:35:33.565
Have you got 10, 000 hours or something like that, worked in the field?

00:35:34.335 --> 00:35:39.679
Um, um, I think there's a lot of people that would look at me and, and say that I'm a master.

00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:47.469
I don't know that that's ever a title that I would give to myself because I always feel like there's so much more Suggest you can't learn much.

00:35:47.469 --> 00:35:48.179
That I write.

00:35:48.619 --> 00:35:51.579
When you become the master, you stop being the student.

00:35:51.730 --> 00:35:59.780
And I feel like there's always room to be the student and always room to, to push yourself and to learn and to grow.

00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:00.960
And.

00:36:03.485 --> 00:36:11.074
So, there are a lot of skills that I have mastered, but I think there's always more mastery to be achieved.

00:36:11.114 --> 00:36:14.094
Yeah, even in those skills, there might be a little nudge you can get.

00:36:14.094 --> 00:36:14.764
Without a doubt.

00:36:14.914 --> 00:36:17.195
As well as just other things you don't even know about yet.

00:36:17.235 --> 00:36:17.985
Yeah, correct.

00:36:17.994 --> 00:36:21.494
Techniques and practices for bringing this color out or bringing the joint together.

00:36:21.505 --> 00:36:21.534
Right.

00:36:21.545 --> 00:36:27.675
You know, and as far as strengths and weaknesses, you know, there's certain things that I'm really good at, and they're like wood turning, for example.

00:36:27.704 --> 00:36:29.730
I've spent a lot of hours on the lathe, Yeah.

00:36:30.150 --> 00:36:41.690
Um, but it's not, it's not necessarily one of the things that I would say I'm great at, because there's a lot of guys that I look at and I'm like, Oh, I'm like an absolute novice at this compared to some people.

00:36:41.699 --> 00:36:42.000
Sure.

00:36:42.269 --> 00:36:45.579
But it's just something that I haven't, you know, I haven't focused.

00:36:45.914 --> 00:36:46.695
A lot of hours.

00:36:46.784 --> 00:36:49.155
Well, it's not as sophisticated of a thing in some ways, right?

00:36:49.184 --> 00:36:50.625
Oh, it can be really, it can be.

00:36:50.625 --> 00:36:53.025
Some of the most sophisticated woodwork can be turned.

00:36:53.025 --> 00:36:53.295
Oh yeah.

00:36:53.295 --> 00:36:53.954
Absolutely.

00:36:54.135 --> 00:36:54.764
Absolutely.

00:36:55.565 --> 00:37:05.585
Um, it's just not been one that I've had enough call for in my own work to spend the time to really, you know, to, to say that I've mastered that.

00:37:05.585 --> 00:37:06.329
You're more like a purple belt.

00:37:06.585 --> 00:37:18.065
Yeah, yeah, and there's, you know, I've had my fair share of pieces that I've chucked into the lathe and they've flown off and I've had to, you know, say a few curse words under my breath and move on and redo it, you know.

00:37:18.065 --> 00:37:27.019
So I'm imagining a lot of those homes up in, Like, that look down upon Aspen and Vail and Telluride and stuff.

00:37:27.019 --> 00:37:39.380
Like those are the kinds of places that would especially be picking up your furnishings or maybe not necessarily mountain style, but you're mostly furnishing people's actually residences, not their winter cabin.

00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:50.045
Um, both, um, I've, you know, I think I've, I've taken some pieces to Mountain Cabins, you know, and when you say Mountain Cabin, of course, it's a I'm talking about the 7 million, uh Exactly.

00:37:50.204 --> 00:37:51.954
It's the 7 million Mountain Cabin.

00:37:51.954 --> 00:37:52.224
Six thousand square foot.

00:37:52.224 --> 00:37:52.454
Yeah.

00:37:52.585 --> 00:37:52.815
Yeah.

00:37:52.875 --> 00:37:53.425
Exactly.

00:37:53.474 --> 00:37:54.094
Exactly.

00:37:54.675 --> 00:38:05.320
Um, you know, it's funny because I think one of the things that's been characterized, uh, that other people looking at my work have characterized as, they're like, you do have a lot of mountain influence.

00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:07.599
Um, I never saw it.

00:38:07.949 --> 00:38:08.320
Right.

00:38:08.369 --> 00:38:12.820
And, but like stepping in and looking from the outside, it's like, okay, yeah, that's probably true.

00:38:13.309 --> 00:38:14.079
That's probably true.

00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:19.530
And so for me, one of my challenges has been, okay, let's, let's learn to design a little more coastal.

00:38:19.610 --> 00:38:21.840
Let's learn to design a little more Asian.

00:38:21.849 --> 00:38:27.750
Let's, you know, pull some of these designs that are a little bit less traditionally mountain.

00:38:28.460 --> 00:38:32.280
Um, and see if we can stretch out into that for sure.

00:38:32.380 --> 00:38:35.949
Uh, uh, the podcast that came out this morning actually is Julian one.

00:38:36.019 --> 00:38:36.349
Yeah.

00:38:36.550 --> 00:38:37.260
You know those guys.

00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:37.480
Yep.

00:38:37.829 --> 00:38:50.239
Um, and kind of the same thing, like, they got very strong, or Hooli especially, very strong Mexican cuisine influence, but also so much Mediterranean, so much Colombian, so much Americana.

00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:50.860
Sure.

00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:55.289
And, uh, you know, just finding those parts and pieces that can make you you.

00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:03.320
Well, I think what, one of the things, like, I'm from North Dakota and I moved to Fort Collins back, you know, 25 years ago or whatever.

00:39:04.625 --> 00:39:07.125
Fort Collins never really felt like the mountains to me.

00:39:07.625 --> 00:39:09.855
You know, it's like the flatlands before the mountains, kinda.

00:39:09.925 --> 00:39:10.195
Yeah, yeah.

00:39:10.195 --> 00:39:12.605
And you're, you're a townie, almost, right?

00:39:12.644 --> 00:39:13.474
Uh, From here, or?

00:39:13.744 --> 00:39:14.534
Completely, actually.

00:39:14.534 --> 00:39:16.255
I was born, I was born here in Fort Collins.

00:39:16.284 --> 00:39:17.195
That's what I thought, yeah.

00:39:17.195 --> 00:39:19.025
PVH, um, yep.

00:39:19.085 --> 00:39:24.195
So you probably don't even really realize, in some ways, how much mountain influence we have here.

00:39:24.724 --> 00:39:25.434
I think that's true.

00:39:25.434 --> 00:39:25.675
Yeah.

00:39:25.974 --> 00:39:37.494
As compared to the coast, even though we, you know, for us, it feels like, you know, we go up to Aspen or Vail and it's like, Oh, now we're in the real mountains, all these, you know, furnishings with log edges and whatnot.

00:39:37.565 --> 00:39:37.925
Yeah.

00:39:38.175 --> 00:39:42.264
Which, you know, it's, it's interesting that I think your, your furnishings in your log edges.

00:39:42.389 --> 00:39:50.440
like stop at a certain threshold, you know, financial threshold where you have, you have, you don't have those anymore, those 7 million cabins.

00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:51.110
Exactly.

00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:51.530
Yeah.

00:39:51.579 --> 00:39:51.809
No.

00:39:51.809 --> 00:40:01.829
And you know, I think what's, what's there is you start looking at design elements that have, um, not rustic, but a mountain feel with a very clean, refined edge.

00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:18.574
Um, And, you know, again, kind of going back to the design side, one of the, you know, quote, cabins, I think it was like a 4, 000 square foot cabin, you know, it was log, um, slate floor, and so one of the things that they were looking to do in that cabin was soften it.

00:40:18.965 --> 00:40:23.434
to bring a little bit more modern edge, but you know, you've got log, which is hard.

00:40:23.485 --> 00:40:25.125
You've got slate, which is hard.

00:40:25.824 --> 00:40:32.434
And so they wanted tables that kind of like just softened that and brought a little bit more organic flow to it.

00:40:32.454 --> 00:40:39.364
And so the dining table was, was round and had the glass river through it.

00:40:39.405 --> 00:40:40.815
And the bar was.

00:40:41.045 --> 00:40:47.525
You know, there's just some soft edges and some flow that took that really hard space and just like softened it.

00:40:47.875 --> 00:40:55.074
So that again, another design challenge to take, you know, something that you were not designing, you know, it's a rustic cabin.

00:40:55.409 --> 00:40:57.349
They're not putting rustic furniture in it.

00:40:57.389 --> 00:40:57.989
Yeah, yeah.

00:40:58.090 --> 00:41:06.420
We're going to soften that with a little bit more modern edge and a little bit more, you know, round instead of square and some of those little details.

00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:13.110
So, uh, I read you as somebody whose text bracket is probably closer to mine than it is to most of your clients.

00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:17.300
Um, Definitely in the, yes, completely.

00:41:18.380 --> 00:41:23.579
Um, how do you, how do you do, I also read you as somebody that doesn't really care.

00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:30.530
Like if, I'm sorry, you have a two million dollar AGI and a ten million dollar house, that doesn't really matter, what kind of piece of furniture do you want?

00:41:31.300 --> 00:41:33.409
Um, Correct.

00:41:33.550 --> 00:41:40.570
Um, you know, I think when you say that you don't care, I mean, there's definitely a, there's, there's a disconnect and a struggle sometimes.

00:41:40.579 --> 00:41:42.210
Yeah, that's, I guess that's what I'm curious about.

00:41:42.210 --> 00:41:57.340
The idea that it's like, um, you know, sometimes when you interact with a clientele that has a 10 or a 20 or a 30 million home, um, and you pull up in a 24 year old, uh, Toyota Tundra, right.

00:41:57.550 --> 00:42:03.239
Um, it's, you know, there's kind of that disconnect of like, am I, Am I in the right place?

00:42:04.309 --> 00:42:10.780
Um, Well, and they're a little bit flippant about whether they're not, they want to buy a 75, 000 table.

00:42:10.789 --> 00:42:11.190
Sure.

00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:14.309
And that may or may not feed your family for the next two months.

00:42:14.380 --> 00:42:14.760
Sure.

00:42:15.110 --> 00:42:16.960
Um, yeah.

00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:31.969
And so, you know, I think what the, the biggest challenge for me in that is, was really coming to the realization that when you talk to that level of clientele, um, My own insecurity would say to me.

00:42:32.969 --> 00:42:49.050
You know, they're somebody that's way up here, and I'm somebody that's way down here, and I have to impress them, I have to, um, somehow make them believe that I'm worthy of them spending their money with me.

00:42:49.099 --> 00:42:53.150
And the reality is, what they need is for me to come in and give them solutions.

00:42:53.780 --> 00:42:58.800
And to come in confidently and say, You know, here's what I'm hearing from you.

00:42:58.949 --> 00:43:05.019
Here's the solution that I have for you and You know, and I'm listening for more feedback, right?

00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:30.369
And oftentimes the price is not the issue it's coming in with something that they can believe in and So the that was a huge challenge for me in both the design realm and in just how I approached them Where I had to stop almost like coming to them with this like bow down and worship you because you're so much more elevated than I am.

00:43:30.369 --> 00:43:39.699
It's like, no, I have a solution to something that you need and so I'm here to, to provide that solution and to provide that, um, that piece.

00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:41.519
Is that a shift that you've made?

00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:43.760
Um, Was it there?

00:43:43.820 --> 00:43:46.130
I mean, I'm, I'm, In the midst.

00:43:46.190 --> 00:43:47.360
In the midst of that shift.

00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:47.710
Yeah, yeah.

00:43:47.710 --> 00:43:48.690
Sometimes it's, you know.

00:43:50.260 --> 00:44:05.739
I had, you know, I had a few clients, a few clients that were very high end that, um, they would say to me, like, that's exactly what I wanted, or, you know, it's, I'd, I'd give them a design and a price and they're like, let's go.

00:44:05.789 --> 00:44:09.190
And those are the things that for me really just built the confidence.

00:44:09.190 --> 00:44:09.760
Mm hmm.

00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:13.739
or they would say, whatever you think, we trust you.

00:44:14.409 --> 00:44:31.320
And it's like, you know, again, you're way up here and I'm way down here, but you know, I guess it's, it's kind of coming to the realization that I've been doing this between violin making, antique restoration and reproduction, and then building furniture custom.

00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:36.179
Um, it's been, 26 years now.

00:44:36.369 --> 00:44:36.780
Oh, wow.

00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:42.280
And so that, that comes with a little bit of like, okay, yes, I do actually know what I'm talking about.

00:44:42.309 --> 00:44:42.710
Yeah.

00:44:43.139 --> 00:44:48.760
Um, And you should, and I'd like to see any of your clients make a piece of furniture, anything like what you can create for them.

00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:49.179
Sure.

00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:54.030
And you know, and that's, but that's the reality is though, that's why they come to me, right.

00:44:54.150 --> 00:44:56.079
Is, you know, again, I offer a solution.

00:44:56.079 --> 00:45:07.699
And so, um, It's definitely like I, I do still sometimes have to fight back that insecurity because that insecurity sometimes still pops up where it's like, what am I even doing here?

00:45:07.789 --> 00:45:16.179
You know, walking into this home that's the value of this, this home is, you know, 100 times what the value of my home is, right?

00:45:16.650 --> 00:45:30.554
Um, and the car that they drive is, you know, a hundred times the dollar value of my truck, but, um, in the end it's that realization that we're all just humans.

00:45:30.684 --> 00:45:42.054
And so, you know, just because you're, just because your net worth is, You know, six billion dollars where my net worth is, you know, that's not much.

00:45:42.394 --> 00:45:42.744
Yeah.

00:45:42.965 --> 00:45:47.045
Um, that, well, most of those folks don't really care that much.

00:45:47.054 --> 00:45:47.375
Right.

00:45:47.405 --> 00:45:48.434
I mean, it's right.

00:45:48.494 --> 00:45:49.804
They have struggles.

00:45:49.965 --> 00:45:51.824
They get depressed sometimes.

00:45:51.844 --> 00:45:52.184
Sure.

00:45:52.425 --> 00:46:05.349
I like, uh, I listened to Joe Rogan pretty regularly and he's like, you know, billionaires as a, as a class, I know about, 20 of them and about half of them are miserable, fuckin hate their life, you know?

00:46:05.670 --> 00:46:11.579
I'm sure that other demographics don't have as much suffering as the billionaire class.

00:46:11.659 --> 00:46:12.039
Sure.

00:46:12.625 --> 00:46:12.965
I don't know.

00:46:13.065 --> 00:46:13.304
Yeah.

00:46:13.414 --> 00:46:14.775
And I don't, you know, I don't know that I could speak to that.

00:46:14.775 --> 00:46:15.605
I'd like to try it out.

00:46:15.605 --> 00:46:15.744
I don't know.

00:46:15.744 --> 00:46:15.934
Sure.

00:46:17.574 --> 00:46:17.905
Yeah.

00:46:17.954 --> 00:46:18.255
Yeah.

00:46:18.255 --> 00:46:41.244
I don't, I don't know that I could speak to that exactly, but you know, again, I think just going through the human journey together and realizing that we all have things to offer based on our unique abilities and gifts and, um, you know, and again, always looking to other people who are maybe a little bit further down the road and, you know, a little bit further in the journey.

00:46:41.355 --> 00:46:41.625
Yeah.

00:46:41.625 --> 00:46:41.702
Yeah.

00:46:41.702 --> 00:46:41.780
Yeah.

00:46:42.070 --> 00:46:43.360
Um, and learning from them.

00:46:44.110 --> 00:46:48.670
Would you, like, for you, is this a long term build?

00:46:48.670 --> 00:46:54.250
I mean, you switched kind of your focus a little bit just like a year, year and a half ago, it sounds like, uh, to some extent.

00:46:55.190 --> 00:47:01.050
Do you want to do this for the next 20 years and be a highly successful furniture artist?

00:47:01.420 --> 00:47:09.880
Yeah, I, you know, I think that's, um, that was one of the decisions that really, Or a thought process, I guess, that I had to address pretty seriously.

00:47:09.909 --> 00:47:10.340
Yeah, yeah.

00:47:10.449 --> 00:47:33.519
Um, you know, doing a little bit more architectural work, doing some, um, cabinet pieces, those types of things that, you know, looking at 10, 20 years down the road, okay, you know, when I'm in my 60s, Will I be able to be, excuse me, um, will I be able to, to pick up 40 foot long beams and stick them on the ceilings of some of these houses and things like that?

00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:37.099
And it's like the answer there is even if I can, do I want to?

00:47:37.099 --> 00:47:37.340
No.

00:47:38.230 --> 00:47:41.409
Um, but building art furniture, I love doing it.

00:47:41.500 --> 00:47:48.920
You know, oftentimes one off furniture pieces are, um, you know, there's definitely some heavy pieces that I built.

00:47:49.289 --> 00:47:52.260
Um, but for the most part, it's stuff that.

00:47:52.505 --> 00:47:55.715
You know, I think it's sustainable for a while.

00:47:56.525 --> 00:48:03.565
Um, I think the biggest question that I had to answer was really on the financial side of like, can I sustain this as a one person shop?

00:48:03.635 --> 00:48:04.235
Yeah, yeah.

00:48:04.295 --> 00:48:10.894
Um, and moving into the more luxury side of that where fewer pieces at a higher dollar, Mm hmm.

00:48:10.985 --> 00:48:13.364
Um, makes that sustainability.

00:48:14.969 --> 00:48:21.780
If you were going to hire one part time or full time person, would they be a creator or just more administrative help?

00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:26.420
Is there even, there probably isn't even that much communications and stuff you're doing, right?

00:48:26.659 --> 00:48:26.849
Sure.

00:48:27.010 --> 00:48:30.050
Yeah, tell me what, um, If you did, I'm not saying you'd want to.

00:48:30.059 --> 00:48:30.090
Sure.

00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:48.880
Yeah, no, I think, um, as far as if, looking at that, And really, I think passing the craft on to the next generation, it really, it's less about the business, although the business is important, um, it's less about the, the books and the numbers, um, and more about creating the art.

00:48:48.980 --> 00:48:49.469
Yeah, yeah.

00:48:49.519 --> 00:49:07.400
And so I would definitely want to find somebody who was, a gifted creator, a gifted, uh, you know, a gifted designer and do what I can to impart what I've learned to them, to where they could pick up the craft and take it forward and hopefully take it, you know, 10 times further than what I can.

00:49:07.940 --> 00:49:21.130
You know, there are people who, you know, in certain areas have a gift that is like, you know, I may be great at this one thing, but it's like, okay, you can take that and take it to a whole new level and be better than I am.

00:49:21.130 --> 00:49:27.110
And that's, that's what I really would hope in passing on, you know, my, my experience is.

00:49:27.684 --> 00:49:34.005
You know, if I can bring somebody on who's who's got the same giftings, but can take them further.

00:49:34.125 --> 00:49:51.215
Yeah, then let's do it I think you know a lot of that, you know music generous music has always been in my family and my My second second child my she's my daughter She can sing 10 times better than I can.

00:49:51.224 --> 00:49:56.094
She picked up the guitar and in like two weeks, I'm like, you have a gift for this.

00:49:56.474 --> 00:50:07.175
So, you know, like my desire for her is it's like, okay, I will teach you everything I know, but I want you to be better, you know, and to, to take it further and to excel.

00:50:07.505 --> 00:50:08.875
That's interested in your industry.

00:50:08.875 --> 00:50:09.764
Yeah, exactly.

00:50:09.925 --> 00:50:10.635
Exactly.

00:50:10.695 --> 00:50:19.355
Um, and I think, well, you know, one of the biggest challenges is that is in the craft industry, um, when you compare.

00:50:19.784 --> 00:50:23.364
Like a tech job versus a job that's in craft.

00:50:24.224 --> 00:50:29.085
It's a lot easier to make a lot more money in a, in a tech field.

00:50:29.724 --> 00:50:35.054
And so, you know, young people, you know, coming up wanting financial stability, wanting all of that.

00:50:35.585 --> 00:50:42.105
Um, It's, it's a more rare person that's willing to go, Okay, I'm willing to, to struggle a little bit more.

00:50:42.105 --> 00:50:44.585
I'm willing to potentially make a little bit less money.

00:50:45.405 --> 00:50:47.894
Um, because I love craft.

00:50:48.034 --> 00:50:49.894
I love design and I love art.

00:50:49.994 --> 00:50:53.945
And to let that be the driver, rather than the finance.

00:50:54.905 --> 00:50:58.139
Um, It's that that pool of people is smaller.

00:50:58.250 --> 00:50:59.090
I'm sure for sure.

00:50:59.110 --> 00:51:03.099
Well, I hope that person finds you at some point Yeah, I would love that for sure.

00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:04.880
I mean, you know, maybe it'll be one of my kids.

00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:08.219
I don't know You know, that's we'll kind of see my dream, right?

00:51:08.219 --> 00:51:19.465
We'll kind of see how that you know, how that plays out You know, my oldest is You know, he's definitely the engineer Um, so he's going to be in computers or robotics or something like that.

00:51:19.465 --> 00:51:24.295
And, um, you know, I think of, you know, going down the line to my kids.

00:51:24.295 --> 00:51:27.864
I don't, I don't see it in the cards, but maybe, you know, you never know.

00:51:27.864 --> 00:51:41.534
Like what, you know, when I was, you know, in middle school, I didn't think that I would be building custom furniture, you know, that's, um, you know, I had a lot of things that I could do and I didn't really anticipate that I would settle here.

00:51:41.534 --> 00:51:41.724
But.

00:51:41.835 --> 00:51:43.875
It's a good path.

00:51:44.204 --> 00:51:45.784
No, it seems like you're having a lot of fun.

00:51:46.125 --> 00:51:47.425
Um, I'm gonna call a short break.

00:51:47.585 --> 00:51:48.025
Party break.

00:52:26.188 --> 00:52:28.248
And, we are back.

00:52:28.858 --> 00:52:29.478
Welcome back.

00:52:29.568 --> 00:52:29.998
Thank you.

00:52:30.028 --> 00:52:31.239
How was that bathroom break for you?

00:52:32.309 --> 00:52:32.699
It was great.

00:52:32.958 --> 00:52:33.588
Really good?

00:52:33.588 --> 00:52:33.998
It was great.

00:52:35.648 --> 00:52:40.329
Um, so this is the time of the show where we uh, jump in the time machine.

00:52:40.974 --> 00:52:44.503
And go back to, uh, to Little Forest.

00:52:44.963 --> 00:52:48.023
Um, in your case, you told me you were a townie already.

00:52:48.023 --> 00:52:53.164
So let's, uh, let's go back to, like, first grade here in Fort Collins.

00:52:53.164 --> 00:52:55.724
What was your, were you, got siblings?

00:52:55.724 --> 00:52:56.108
Were you a father?

00:52:56.619 --> 00:52:58.789
Parents, entrepreneurs, teachers.

00:52:59.329 --> 00:53:02.509
Um, so, what are the circumstances?

00:53:02.528 --> 00:53:04.509
First grade, uh, lived in Wellington.

00:53:04.628 --> 00:53:06.949
Uh, a little bit north of Wellington, had 14 acres.

00:53:07.068 --> 00:53:07.548
Oh, okay.

00:53:07.588 --> 00:53:09.358
Um, so, kind of Farm ish?

00:53:09.358 --> 00:53:10.309
Yeah, farm ish.

00:53:10.318 --> 00:53:11.998
I mean, we had, we had a big garden.

00:53:12.108 --> 00:53:17.099
Um, my dad worked for Fort Collins Nursery.

00:53:18.398 --> 00:53:19.128
Really a career.

00:53:19.139 --> 00:53:22.108
I mean he was there for over 40 years.

00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:22.688
Oh, wow.

00:53:22.699 --> 00:53:31.849
So, you know, it was you know Once they moved to Fort Collins area, they did a couple they did a key did a couple other things But for the most part that was it so he grew trees.

00:53:32.028 --> 00:53:35.293
Yeah So, you know one of my wife's You know, big things.

00:53:35.293 --> 00:53:38.324
She's like, you know, anything you put your hand to can grow.

00:53:38.324 --> 00:53:43.744
I'm like, well, part of that was just growing up with a dad who, you know, grew things for sure.

00:53:43.813 --> 00:53:50.364
And, you know, so when I was a kid, like my first job was out tagging potted plants at the nursery.

00:53:50.514 --> 00:53:54.184
Um, you know, so yeah, I definitely grew up around, around trees.

00:53:54.233 --> 00:53:56.344
Um, yeah.

00:53:57.853 --> 00:53:59.744
Two siblings, one older, one younger.

00:53:59.804 --> 00:54:00.014
Okay.

00:54:00.023 --> 00:54:03.173
Um, my brother's still here in town, lives in Loveland.

00:54:03.184 --> 00:54:03.213
Okay.

00:54:03.224 --> 00:54:05.653
Um, my sister lives, uh, back in North Carolina now.

00:54:05.873 --> 00:54:06.173
Alright.

00:54:06.414 --> 00:54:09.273
Um, so Was your mom a homemaker?

00:54:09.284 --> 00:54:10.293
Yep, yep, yep.

00:54:10.384 --> 00:54:13.324
Um, she Normal back in those days, not so much anymore.

00:54:13.333 --> 00:54:14.143
Yeah, for sure.

00:54:14.193 --> 00:54:20.293
Um, so we were actually, um, starting after my second grade year, we were homeschooled.

00:54:20.293 --> 00:54:20.324
Oh, wow.

00:54:20.344 --> 00:54:23.224
My parents pulled us out of, pulled us out of, um, Eyestone Elementary.

00:54:23.233 --> 00:54:23.264
Okay.

00:54:23.273 --> 00:54:24.434
You know, set up in Wellington.

00:54:24.474 --> 00:54:24.844
Okay.

00:54:24.844 --> 00:54:24.931
Yeah.

00:54:24.931 --> 00:54:25.018
Okay.

00:54:25.018 --> 00:54:25.103
Okay.

00:54:25.244 --> 00:54:30.043
Um, you know, there's just some direction that the school was going that they, you know, that they weren't super thrilled with.

00:54:30.114 --> 00:54:33.344
And so they pulled us out and homeschooled us from there on up.

00:54:33.514 --> 00:54:33.884
Okay.

00:54:33.943 --> 00:54:35.574
Um, so yeah, when Can we talk about that?

00:54:35.583 --> 00:54:35.764
Sure.

00:54:35.764 --> 00:54:36.164
Is that allowed?

00:54:36.164 --> 00:54:36.353
Absolutely.

00:54:36.364 --> 00:54:42.954
Like, like, I assume it wasn't, uh, like they weren't trying to trans the kids yet or anything up in Wellington at that time?

00:54:42.954 --> 00:54:45.673
Or was there some, like, what was the direction that they didn't like?

00:54:45.793 --> 00:54:47.693
Um, Bad, bad math teachers?

00:54:48.123 --> 00:55:02.579
There was, I think, a, a lot of it was my brother had a teacher that was just really, Um, and just if kids weren't catching on to a certain thing that they were just really like, put the kids down, just really weren't, you know.

00:55:02.579 --> 00:55:03.358
And he was your older brother.

00:55:03.378 --> 00:55:04.539
That was my older brother, yeah.

00:55:04.739 --> 00:55:05.329
And so he kind of tested the waters.

00:55:05.329 --> 00:55:05.559
Yeah, yeah.

00:55:05.568 --> 00:55:06.748
And they were like, okay, we're done.

00:55:06.789 --> 00:55:07.278
For sure.

00:55:07.659 --> 00:55:15.909
Um, and I think, you know, they probably did see a little bit of the writing on the wall with some of the direction of, you know, so I grew up Christian.

00:55:15.909 --> 00:55:16.318
Okay.

00:55:16.318 --> 00:55:17.099
Um, still am.

00:55:17.108 --> 00:55:21.159
Um, and, you know, so I think just philosophically, there were some things that they didn't love that the.

00:55:21.233 --> 00:55:21.963
you know, the direction of the school.

00:55:21.963 --> 00:55:24.563
Even already than 20 years ago, 25, 30 years ago.

00:55:24.574 --> 00:55:24.884
Yeah.

00:55:24.893 --> 00:55:25.364
For sure.

00:55:25.764 --> 00:55:28.393
Definitely not to the degree that it is today.

00:55:28.423 --> 00:55:39.534
I mean, there's, it's rough, um, today, but, um, yeah, so they, and I think educationally, they just saw that homeschooling gave opportunities to excel.

00:55:39.534 --> 00:55:40.853
Especially if you have really bright kids.

00:55:41.518 --> 00:55:47.478
You know, if you got really bright kids, the public school system is just going to hold them back their whole life, probably.

00:55:48.458 --> 00:55:51.239
And so, um, you know, my brother and I did okay.

00:55:51.289 --> 00:55:54.639
Um, my sister didn't take to it quite as well.

00:55:54.679 --> 00:56:00.329
When she was in high school, she ended up, um, going to a private school for a couple years, um, just because she struggled a little bit more.

00:56:00.329 --> 00:56:02.784
But, um How did you guys socialize and stuff?

00:56:02.793 --> 00:56:03.083
stuff.

00:56:03.083 --> 00:56:05.864
Did you have sports or clubs or things like that?

00:56:05.884 --> 00:56:06.173
Yeah.

00:56:06.173 --> 00:56:07.393
So we were in 4H.

00:56:07.443 --> 00:56:07.813
Oh, sure.

00:56:07.813 --> 00:56:12.204
So we had animals and, you know, around people there, but we, you know, we were also really heavily involved with the church.

00:56:12.224 --> 00:56:28.103
And so we had the youth group and, and all of that, um, you know, and I think so, you know, back then the socialization issue was really, I think, forefront of why people had concerns with, with homeschooling.

00:56:28.873 --> 00:56:30.684
Um, one of, yeah, for sure.

00:56:30.744 --> 00:56:31.443
Now that I reflect.

00:56:31.474 --> 00:56:31.744
And it.

00:56:31.744 --> 00:56:32.014
Yeah.

00:56:32.213 --> 00:56:47.784
One of the things that, that really, I think, came out pretty quickly as people really started to, to look at socialization in homeschooled kids is that when you go to a public school, your primary socialization is with your peers.

00:56:48.043 --> 00:56:51.313
With a bunch of other little punk asses that don't know how to socialize with adults.

00:56:51.494 --> 00:57:00.083
And where in the homeschool, You know, and we had a homeschool group that we would do, um, meetings with.

00:57:00.083 --> 00:57:00.403
Sure, yeah.

00:57:00.414 --> 00:57:01.824
You know, some of them were just monthly.

00:57:01.824 --> 00:57:07.963
But, you know, there were a lot where, like, if you had, you know, a bunch of kids where you had one mom that was a really good math teacher.

00:57:07.974 --> 00:57:08.293
Right.

00:57:08.634 --> 00:57:11.094
And you had other parents that struggled to teach math.

00:57:11.278 --> 00:57:14.668
So you'd get together and you'd have like a math co op, and so you'd have other kids.

00:57:15.338 --> 00:57:32.534
Um, but what really became clear very quickly, I think, within the homeschool movement is that the kids who are homeschooled were actually better socialized because they could, you know, they hung out with younger people, they hung out with older people, and we're all, you know, oftentimes, significantly more respectful towards adults.

00:57:32.534 --> 00:57:34.103
They knew how to interact with adults.

00:57:34.103 --> 00:57:37.063
And well, and 4 H is great for that too, honestly.

00:57:37.063 --> 00:57:49.463
I mean, if you look at a 4 H kid in just about any county fair around the country, that they're totally comfortable showing off their sewing thing, their woodworking or their sheep to the judges and stuff.

00:57:49.463 --> 00:57:51.963
And that freaks a lot of kids out at that age.

00:57:52.403 --> 00:57:52.653
Yeah.

00:57:52.664 --> 00:57:57.344
It, you know, and I think that it's something that's been lost with the younger generations.

00:57:57.543 --> 00:58:16.753
I think, um, where, you know, you've got such a Uh, a closed group of, you know, your peers that it's like, you can socialize there, but beyond that, you know, and I think too, there's a culture of offense too, that's taken root in the last decade where it's like, you can't hardly say anything without somebody else getting offended.

00:58:17.103 --> 00:58:20.543
And so, you know, that, that definitely brings its own challenges too.

00:58:20.634 --> 00:58:21.643
But um, but yeah.

00:58:21.664 --> 00:58:23.313
So you didn't feel like you struggled at all?

00:58:23.324 --> 00:58:24.103
No, not at all.

00:58:24.293 --> 00:58:24.773
Not at all.

00:58:26.523 --> 00:58:28.893
Do you, what church were you, was your family a part of?

00:58:29.384 --> 00:58:31.134
Um, we've, yeah.

00:58:31.134 --> 00:58:35.244
So we've been, uh, a couple of churches, um, over the years.

00:58:35.273 --> 00:58:38.514
When I was growing up, it was a church Christ, Rocky Mountain Church Christ.

00:58:38.543 --> 00:58:41.253
They don't, they don't exist anymore as far as I know.

00:58:42.034 --> 00:58:48.094
Um, you know, around high school, um, that church had just kind of collapsed.

00:58:48.094 --> 00:58:50.193
And so we became a part of Dayspring Christian Church.

00:58:50.193 --> 00:58:52.864
They're over in, um, in the Windsor area.

00:58:52.873 --> 00:58:53.724
It's kind of a non denominational.

00:58:53.744 --> 00:58:53.903
Yeah.

00:58:53.903 --> 00:58:55.594
Non denominational Christian church.

00:58:55.784 --> 00:58:56.335
Curious about it.

00:58:56.335 --> 00:59:02.173
It seems like that element of the church maybe is the most homeschool y and stuff.

00:59:02.713 --> 00:59:03.403
Yeah, I don't know.

00:59:03.414 --> 00:59:04.793
It really just kind of depends.

00:59:05.134 --> 00:59:07.563
Um, you know, now we're involved.

00:59:07.603 --> 00:59:10.853
Um, our home church now is Vintage City Church right on Prospect there.

00:59:10.864 --> 00:59:11.164
Yeah, yeah.

00:59:11.454 --> 00:59:25.148
Um, You know, and it's, it's interesting because it's definitely a little bit more charismatic, if you want to say that, than the church that I grew up, I mean, grew up very, very strict traditional, um, very conservative, um, yeah, definitely no dancing.

00:59:25.208 --> 00:59:32.159
Well, Church of Christ, there's no instruments, so, you know, I mean, very, like, very conservative in that, in that realm.

00:59:32.713 --> 00:59:35.864
Um, so yeah, definitely like vintage is, is not that.

00:59:35.864 --> 00:59:39.623
I mean, we, we have dancing, you know, there's flags every now and again.

00:59:39.625 --> 00:59:48.344
So, um, yeah, they've been there a few times and it's, you know, I think it's, it's a little bit louder than they're used to, um, a little bit more produced than they're used to.

00:59:48.384 --> 00:59:54.864
Um, but we have a lot of homeschool families where they just have, you know, their value is they want to be the person.

00:59:55.164 --> 00:59:56.824
the primary educators.

00:59:56.864 --> 01:00:06.103
And you know, when it comes to raising the kids, do you, do you send your kids to the state or do you, do you take that role seriously where it's like, I'm the one who's going to raise my kid.

01:00:06.123 --> 01:00:10.224
And, um, yeah, I think that's honorable.

01:00:10.233 --> 01:00:15.373
Honestly, my wife and I don't have any kids, but if we did, I think I'd probably have gone that route myself.

01:00:15.373 --> 01:00:15.643
Yeah.

01:00:15.963 --> 01:00:17.403
As long as she was willing to do most of it.

01:00:17.414 --> 01:00:17.753
Sure.

01:00:18.123 --> 01:00:18.304
Yeah.

01:00:18.304 --> 01:00:20.153
And you know, we even, it's a big sacrifice, right?

01:00:20.193 --> 01:00:20.514
It is.

01:00:20.574 --> 01:00:29.664
And we had, you know, honestly with our kids, we had looked at homeschooling them, Um, at our oldest, when he was, you know, kindergarten, first grade, we had started the process.

01:00:29.664 --> 01:00:35.193
We were, we were into it, um, because we weren't thrilled with the options for public school.

01:00:36.063 --> 01:00:38.923
But both of us also worked and had the career.

01:00:38.923 --> 01:00:42.233
And so it was, it was definitely a challenge.

01:00:42.494 --> 01:00:49.403
And I think, you know, one of the things when it comes to homeschooling, like, you need, you need to be able to organize really strongly.

01:00:50.023 --> 01:01:00.313
And, you know, I think there were just some struggles that we had, uh, we had the opportunity early on, um, partway into the home, in, in first grade, um, to get into Ridgeview.

01:01:00.849 --> 01:01:04.659
Um, here in town, um, kind of a, you know, a funny backstory.

01:01:04.699 --> 01:01:09.978
I worked at Barnes and Noble for a little bit of time, just kind of in the process of like figuring things out.

01:01:09.978 --> 01:01:11.458
Between the violins and the furniture restoration.

01:01:11.478 --> 01:01:12.818
Yeah, exactly.

01:01:12.820 --> 01:01:21.159
And, um, you know, we'd always get the teachers from Ridgeview coming in and they were, you know, they were picking up these classics and I'm like, you know, is this for high school?

01:01:21.159 --> 01:01:22.579
And they're like, no, this is our third grade.

01:01:24.320 --> 01:01:25.099
Like what the heck?

01:01:25.469 --> 01:01:28.130
And so, you know, they're, they're teaching, you know, critical thinking.

01:01:28.130 --> 01:01:33.210
They're teaching, you know, they, they teach in a Socratic method where it's like Anne of Green Gables is in there at fourth grade.

01:01:33.269 --> 01:01:33.989
Right, right.

01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:39.510
No, it's like, and they're reading Homer and they're, you know, they're reading a lot of these and it's, it, so it impressed me a lot.

01:01:39.519 --> 01:01:44.469
And so when we have, you know, when it's like we have kids and it's just like, okay, we're going to put in the lottery.

01:01:45.034 --> 01:01:51.184
And, um, they, you know, at first didn't get picked and then they had somebody leave.

01:01:51.295 --> 01:01:57.414
And so I think like it was about a month or two into Emerson, my oldest, his first grade year that we got the call.

01:01:57.835 --> 01:02:00.164
Somebody left and his name would come up in the lottery.

01:02:00.164 --> 01:02:01.744
So we got him in there and we've been really happy.

01:02:01.744 --> 01:02:13.260
And I think, you know, for me, one of the biggest compromise almost, yeah, between, Not being a, uh, uh, intellectual enough and having, you know, so yeah, exactly.

01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:17.949
And, and really, I think more than, than intellectual enough is just the time.

01:02:18.690 --> 01:02:23.750
Because it's like, in order to do it right, I really, you know, I think one parent does just have to stay home.

01:02:24.389 --> 01:02:27.440
Um, at least, you know, when they're younger, I mean, and, That's pretty tough.

01:02:27.449 --> 01:02:33.300
And you know, and you know, the economy here and the cost of living here, it's, you know, it's a challenge.

01:02:33.309 --> 01:02:37.900
You better have a doctor or a lawyer in your household if you're going to just do it on one income.

01:02:37.909 --> 01:02:39.329
Or just live really, really simply.

01:02:39.340 --> 01:02:39.650
Yeah.

01:02:39.650 --> 01:02:40.778
Yeah, those are the choices.

01:02:42.349 --> 01:02:48.610
So, so you kind of caught us up like at the end of high school when you kind of jumped into this apprenticeship thing.

01:02:48.619 --> 01:02:51.079
Did you, did you go to college at all?

01:02:51.079 --> 01:02:51.929
Did you contemplate that?

01:02:51.929 --> 01:02:52.130
Nope.

01:02:52.469 --> 01:02:59.469
Um, I had, you know, definitely thought about it, but there was never anything in college that to me was like, this is something that I'm passionate about that I want to pursue.

01:02:59.869 --> 01:03:08.219
So, um, yeah, jumped into the violin making apprenticeship, um, came out of that with just kind of a, I'm going to try to build this as a business.

01:03:08.219 --> 01:03:08.610
Yeah.

01:03:08.949 --> 01:03:12.250
Um, didn't have the discipline at 20 to do that.

01:03:12.309 --> 01:03:14.849
Oh, so you actually tried to start your own dial in business?

01:03:14.860 --> 01:03:16.840
No, I was, I was starting to build.

01:03:16.949 --> 01:03:18.639
You could have taken on his business eventually or something.

01:03:18.639 --> 01:03:20.000
Um, yeah, probably not that.

01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:22.809
I don't think he was really, you know, into that kind of thing.

01:03:23.460 --> 01:03:30.530
Um, but he did tell me going in, he's like, you know, really, you're going to be, you're going to be working at this for 10 years to really establish a name.

01:03:31.980 --> 01:03:35.344
And, um, you know, well, You were like, yeah.

01:03:35.494 --> 01:03:36.394
10 years.

01:03:36.664 --> 01:03:47.054
Well, in the reality is, well, and when it really comes down to it, it's like looking back at when I started my business doing this, you know, it took 10 years to really get established and to really have a name in this.

01:03:47.445 --> 01:03:48.605
That's just entrepreneurship.

01:03:48.724 --> 01:03:48.954
Yeah.

01:03:49.125 --> 01:03:52.405
But at 20, I just didn't have that, that vision and that discipline.

01:03:53.085 --> 01:04:05.574
So, um, yeah, so it was a couple of years, just kind of, you know, I worked at Barnes and Noble, worked at the library, just kind of did some, you know, I've got a job, I'm trying to pursue this violin thing, but not really like taking it as seriously as I could have.

01:04:05.574 --> 01:04:09.864
And that's when I landed in the Did you meet your wife along the way somewhere there?

01:04:09.914 --> 01:04:13.505
Um, so that was during the violin making years.

01:04:13.554 --> 01:04:13.954
Oh, it was?

01:04:14.255 --> 01:04:14.635
Okay.

01:04:14.695 --> 01:04:14.925
Yep.

01:04:15.454 --> 01:04:19.594
Um, or no, excuse me, not the violin making, the, uh, the anticarceration years.

01:04:19.625 --> 01:04:20.065
Oh, later.

01:04:20.094 --> 01:04:20.355
Yep.

01:04:20.485 --> 01:04:20.905
Okay.

01:04:21.074 --> 01:04:21.255
Yep.

01:04:21.275 --> 01:04:21.514
Gotcha.

01:04:21.525 --> 01:04:24.400
So, um, Um, yeah, we met online.

01:04:24.849 --> 01:04:25.219
Okay.

01:04:25.280 --> 01:04:27.659
Um, she was living, you know The early days of Match.

01:04:27.869 --> 01:04:28.639
com or something?

01:04:28.739 --> 01:04:28.929
Yeah.

01:04:29.420 --> 01:04:30.340
E Harmony, probably.

01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:31.139
Christian Café.

01:04:31.719 --> 01:04:35.159
You know, it was one of the, kind of like E Harmony, but the Christian version of it.

01:04:35.210 --> 01:04:41.090
Um, yeah, so, and it was funny, because I always thought, you know, like, online dating things, I'm like, this is so lame.

01:04:41.599 --> 01:04:47.909
But, you know, at the same time, I'm like, I kept getting advertisements from them, or emails from them, and I'm just like, whatever, I'll just, you know, I'll check it out.

01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:48.619
Put an account up there.

01:04:48.724 --> 01:04:49.534
Um, yeah.

01:04:49.534 --> 01:04:54.885
And so it was something that when we, when we first met, it was just really comfortable and really natural.

01:04:54.885 --> 01:04:56.034
And we just kind of hit it off.

01:04:56.034 --> 01:05:12.083
And, um, I don't know that, you know, either of us took it super seriously at first because it was just like, you know, we're just friends, we're just hanging out, but then it was just so natural that it was like, okay, we're just kind of like, I guess we're moving, I guess, recording all of a sudden we're just, we're, you know, and, and.

01:05:12.335 --> 01:05:20.014
You know, not through trying, but just by happenstance, we're like, we're spending like every afternoon together, and we really like it.

01:05:20.224 --> 01:05:21.393
Yeah, yeah.

01:05:21.574 --> 01:05:25.565
So yeah, it just kind of fell together pretty naturally, and, um Circuit me a little bit.

01:05:25.574 --> 01:05:26.135
What is this?

01:05:26.264 --> 01:05:30.235
This is like So this was 2002.

01:05:30.315 --> 01:05:30.735
Okay.

01:05:31.394 --> 01:05:33.795
Um, and then we were married in 2004.

01:05:34.650 --> 01:05:42.769
And, um, yeah, bought a house, did the whole like, we're gonna jump into home ownership, and yeah, 20 years ago, this past September.

01:05:42.929 --> 01:05:43.710
Oh, awesome.

01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:47.170
So you've just been kind of navigating that career in the meantime.

01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:47.789
Yeah.

01:05:48.469 --> 01:05:54.929
Um, I feel like we could probably, uh, hit some of the closing segments now.

01:05:54.929 --> 01:05:57.030
We always talk about faith, family, politics.

01:05:57.059 --> 01:05:57.269
Sure.

01:05:57.269 --> 01:05:58.659
We've already talked about family some.

01:05:58.670 --> 01:06:00.039
You want to start there?

01:06:01.489 --> 01:06:02.969
We've talked about faith a little bit too.

01:06:03.010 --> 01:06:03.329
Sure.

01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:03.719
Yeah.

01:06:03.750 --> 01:06:06.659
I mean, um, family.

01:06:06.679 --> 01:06:08.440
So, I've got four kids.

01:06:08.454 --> 01:06:14.295
16, 14, 13, and just actually today is his birthday, just turned 9.

01:06:14.335 --> 01:06:15.094
Happy birthday.

01:06:15.364 --> 01:06:17.304
My youngest one, Oakley, happy birthday.

01:06:17.474 --> 01:06:21.565
Um, yeah, so we've got the engineer, we've got the artist.

01:06:22.235 --> 01:06:30.894
Um, 13 year old, she's Um, incredibly caring, incredibly observant, and I'm not really sure where she's gonna go career wise yet.

01:06:30.894 --> 01:06:31.195
Okay.

01:06:31.425 --> 01:06:31.795
Okay.

01:06:31.864 --> 01:06:37.105
Um, and then our youngest is definitely the one, like, he's the first one in the family that's like, really into sports.

01:06:37.195 --> 01:06:37.375
Oh.

01:06:37.385 --> 01:06:39.284
And throws the football around all the time.

01:06:39.295 --> 01:06:39.594
I love it.

01:06:39.614 --> 01:06:43.105
And outsprung from somewhere, I don't know.

01:06:43.494 --> 01:06:44.514
Not, not from me.

01:06:44.735 --> 01:06:45.905
No, probably from my wife.

01:06:45.905 --> 01:06:51.664
I mean, my wife was definitely more, you know, she's the one who watched football and, and, you know, into that kind of stuff.

01:06:51.664 --> 01:06:53.394
You know, for sure, for sure.

01:06:53.465 --> 01:06:57.045
Um, were those your one word descriptions already that you came through or no?

01:06:57.045 --> 01:06:58.324
Do you remember that part of our show?

01:06:58.804 --> 01:07:03.295
Um, we, we, we usually do a, a one word description of your children.

01:07:03.735 --> 01:07:04.184
Okay.

01:07:04.224 --> 01:07:07.139
Would you like to attempt that and, and give them a name, those ages.

01:07:07.139 --> 01:07:08.250
I think he's from Emerson.

01:07:08.940 --> 01:07:11.050
By the way, do you know the significance of Emerson?

01:07:11.869 --> 01:07:15.599
Um, In my college years, I, I, I used that name.

01:07:15.869 --> 01:07:16.570
Occasionally.

01:07:16.570 --> 01:07:21.389
Um, and it was code for like, Emerson, nice boobs.

01:07:23.860 --> 01:07:25.170
Cause you didn't want to get called out.

01:07:25.170 --> 01:07:26.449
So you'd be like, Hey, Emerson.

01:07:27.650 --> 01:07:28.239
Right over there.

01:07:28.550 --> 01:07:28.699
Yep.

01:07:28.699 --> 01:07:30.059
Oh, anyway, I digress.

01:07:30.059 --> 01:07:30.309
Nope.

01:07:30.690 --> 01:07:32.550
Did not, did not have that reference there.

01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:35.289
Don't share that with him.

01:07:35.329 --> 01:07:35.820
It's all good.

01:07:35.820 --> 01:07:36.672
Although he's probably going to listen to this now.

01:07:36.672 --> 01:07:36.916
It's all good.

01:07:36.916 --> 01:07:37.920
He's going to be like, Dad.

01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:40.259
Sure.

01:07:40.260 --> 01:07:43.730
Um, so yeah, Emerson's definitely, he's, he's the engineer.

01:07:43.985 --> 01:07:47.204
Um, very physics minded, very So he's like, probably like a junior in high school?

01:07:47.204 --> 01:07:48.755
He's a junior, yep, he's a junior.

01:07:48.804 --> 01:07:52.105
Um, very, very math minded, which he did not get from me.

01:07:52.945 --> 01:07:55.135
Um, Sawyer is my artist.

01:07:55.164 --> 01:07:58.155
She is, yeah, she's 14, so she's a freshman this year.

01:07:58.255 --> 01:08:00.474
Um, Oh, do you have a one word description for Emerson?

01:08:02.369 --> 01:08:03.880
Like engineer is yeah, definitely.

01:08:03.880 --> 01:08:06.019
I think engineer would be the most precise.

01:08:06.070 --> 01:08:06.369
Yeah.

01:08:06.500 --> 01:08:07.570
Yeah, just one.

01:08:07.579 --> 01:08:14.679
Yeah, very very intellectual Yes, so if you know if we're talking engineer for number one for Emerson for Sawyer, she's the artist.

01:08:14.739 --> 01:08:18.810
Yeah She paints she sings she's learning to play guitar.

01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:20.939
She's the one that could play guitar right away.

01:08:20.939 --> 01:08:21.329
Yeah.

01:08:21.829 --> 01:08:28.899
She sits down at the piano and doesn't know a lick of music, but she'll just like figure out a song by, you know, just figure it out.

01:08:28.939 --> 01:08:37.619
And she's, you know, she's kind of played around the sheet music a little bit, but, um, Colby is my helper.

01:08:38.859 --> 01:08:42.260
She's the one who's like, I've got to go clean up the garden.

01:08:42.270 --> 01:08:43.420
She's like, I'll come help.

01:08:43.500 --> 01:08:44.050
Yeah, I love it.

01:08:44.310 --> 01:08:55.859
Um, and so my, my 14 year old Sawyer, she's always the one accusing me of like, Colby's your favorite because she always does this and she always, I'm like.

01:08:56.710 --> 01:08:58.010
You can help in the garden too.

01:08:58.810 --> 01:08:59.010
Exactly.

01:08:59.539 --> 01:09:00.140
Exactly.

01:09:00.449 --> 01:09:04.300
So, you know, that's, that's one of the, that's one of the challenges there.

01:09:04.310 --> 01:09:11.149
Just like, yes, just because Colby, you know, is the helpful one doesn't mean you don't have really great qualities too.

01:09:11.170 --> 01:09:17.524
That's just a quality that, you know, comes out and causes conflict because, you know, she'll come out and help and, you know.

01:09:17.925 --> 01:09:21.930
Apparently your envy over her helpfulness is what's causing the problem here.

01:09:21.930 --> 01:09:27.795
Well, and she, I think she's the one who's most like me from the standpoint of like organization and structure.

01:09:28.375 --> 01:09:43.119
She likes a clean house, she's got everything organized, you know, and like, she, One night, my wife and I were out and the kids were home and she, like, get home and the, uh, the dishes are all done and everything is clean and perfect.

01:09:43.579 --> 01:09:46.819
And um, she's just like, yeah, I just got bored.

01:09:46.819 --> 01:09:48.399
So, you know, I cleaned everything up.

01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:57.199
I'm like, yeah, not, uh, not normal for the, uh, 13 year old to just do that, but I dig it.

01:09:57.659 --> 01:09:59.270
And then what was the last one was nine.

01:09:59.350 --> 01:09:59.640
Yeah.

01:09:59.640 --> 01:10:00.720
So Oakley is nine.

01:10:01.460 --> 01:10:05.340
Um, one word description of Oakley.

01:10:06.784 --> 01:10:07.704
Rambunctious.

01:10:07.765 --> 01:10:09.324
Oh, I'll serve him.

01:10:09.324 --> 01:10:11.364
Well, yeah, boy.

01:10:11.654 --> 01:10:12.795
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

01:10:12.805 --> 01:10:20.524
And, you know, coming off of, you know, our first boy Emerson, you know, being very like intellectual, very math, science oriented.

01:10:20.944 --> 01:10:23.664
He's, he's not the one to be very expressive.

01:10:23.704 --> 01:10:26.404
Yeah, very quiet, very reserved, usually.

01:10:26.404 --> 01:10:30.564
And so Oakley, you know, running around with transformers and dinosaurs.

01:10:30.574 --> 01:10:31.145
Yeah.

01:10:31.750 --> 01:10:47.140
Um, yeah, definitely the more physical and, and, uh, you know, he's a redhead, so definitely the spirits and the emotions run high as well.

01:10:47.189 --> 01:10:54.774
So, um, yeah, um, tell me about, uh, I mean, you told me a little bit about the, Romance.

01:10:54.784 --> 01:10:55.954
What's your wife's name, by the way?

01:10:56.064 --> 01:10:56.505
Billie.

01:10:56.614 --> 01:10:57.095
Billie?

01:10:57.145 --> 01:10:57.484
Yep.

01:10:57.795 --> 01:10:58.335
Was it I.

01:10:58.364 --> 01:10:58.564
E.

01:10:58.564 --> 01:10:58.734
or?

01:10:58.784 --> 01:10:58.925
I.

01:10:58.984 --> 01:10:59.185
E.

01:10:59.244 --> 01:10:59.715
Okay.

01:11:00.194 --> 01:11:14.225
Um, like, ultimately, aside from just kind of it being really easy, were there favorite things about her that made you want to spend time with her that second day and that third afternoon and that fourth afternoon?

01:11:14.225 --> 01:11:14.462
Um.

01:11:14.462 --> 01:11:15.416
I'm sure there's several.

01:11:15.416 --> 01:11:17.322
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things.

01:11:17.322 --> 01:11:19.466
I think the thing that But the early on.

01:11:19.466 --> 01:11:20.896
Think back to the early on.

01:11:20.896 --> 01:11:22.564
Yeah, that's where I'm trying to go.

01:11:22.564 --> 01:11:22.802
Um.

01:11:22.802 --> 01:11:23.279
Mm hmm.

01:11:28.880 --> 01:11:37.670
I think our personalities, our values, what was really important to us just aligned really, really well.

01:11:38.289 --> 01:11:42.199
And so there was just no, like, well you want this and I don't want that.

01:11:42.250 --> 01:11:51.289
And, um, just very, and I think in some ways too, it was the things about our personalities that are opposite.

01:11:51.810 --> 01:11:59.720
That really, um, she's definitely the more, like, fun loving, a little bit more boisterous, and I'm definitely not.

01:12:00.439 --> 01:12:10.680
Um, and so some of those things just complemented, and you know, in a lot of ways she brought out some of the good things in me that, that never, you know, came to light otherwise.

01:12:10.710 --> 01:12:11.319
Yeah, yeah.

01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:12.229
Um.

01:12:12.239 --> 01:12:13.319
I dig it.

01:12:13.329 --> 01:12:17.810
So how, why did, why did, you were boring, why did she, uh, keep hanging out with you?

01:12:19.130 --> 01:12:19.810
I don't know.

01:12:21.159 --> 01:12:21.720
You've never asked?

01:12:22.220 --> 01:12:28.760
Yeah, you know, it's, um, she, she came to Colorado to find her cowboy and it did not fit that bill.

01:12:28.949 --> 01:12:29.949
She found her artist instead.

01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:30.979
Yeah, something like that.

01:12:30.989 --> 01:12:36.039
You know, although there was a, you know, a period in my life where I had a cowboy hat and I wore a duster and I had a horse and.

01:12:36.039 --> 01:12:36.789
Oh, okay.

01:12:36.789 --> 01:12:45.854
Yeah, so I mean, that, that's definitely, you know, It's there, but yeah, by the time, by the time we met, you know, a lot of that had kind of taken a back burner.

01:12:45.864 --> 01:12:50.345
Well, and honestly, if you're really looking for a cowboy, Colorado is probably not the best place to go.

01:12:50.354 --> 01:12:52.845
No, you got to go, got to go a few miles north.

01:12:52.845 --> 01:12:55.244
Montana, Texas maybe is a good spot.

01:12:55.314 --> 01:12:57.864
Yeah, well, probably some in Wyoming.

01:12:57.954 --> 01:12:58.685
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:58.895 --> 01:13:02.279
Oh yeah, the percentage of of Cowboy is really high in Wyoming, probably.

01:13:02.279 --> 01:13:03.579
Yeah, for sure.

01:13:04.109 --> 01:13:06.199
Um, let's talk about faith a little more.

01:13:06.210 --> 01:13:06.439
Okay.

01:13:06.869 --> 01:13:16.630
Um, so you've kind of moved toward, I guess, what would be a more charismatic, a little more fun loving church experience from what you grew up in.

01:13:16.630 --> 01:13:19.060
Is that an intention or just?

01:13:19.385 --> 01:13:25.104
Met the pastor there, thought it was cool, or like, how did you, uh Well, so, kind of a, kind of a strange story there.

01:13:25.145 --> 01:13:32.574
Um, The pastor at the, at Vintage, um, Greg Sanders, he was, he was a worship pastor at, uh, Good Shepherd in Loveland for a long time.

01:13:33.215 --> 01:13:36.675
And at the time, my brother was actually a Good Shepherd and was playing with him.

01:13:36.675 --> 01:13:40.494
And my brother had kind of like said, Hey, why don't you come play music with me every now and again?

01:13:40.944 --> 01:13:42.944
And so I, you know, I'd met him.

01:13:43.149 --> 01:13:50.819
Um, when it came to coming to vintage though, my brother at the time, he had, he had come over and, and was attending vintage when it was just starting.

01:13:51.180 --> 01:13:52.529
He's like, yeah, you should come to vintage.

01:13:52.529 --> 01:13:53.279
You should come to vintage.

01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:56.000
And I'm like, I'm not following you to vintage.

01:13:56.039 --> 01:14:01.250
Like, I just like, I'm not going to, you know, not going to be that little brother, not going to follow my big brother around.

01:14:01.359 --> 01:14:09.439
Um, But, my wife and I, um, kind of walked through a point in our marriage where, um, we were just kind of struggling.

01:14:09.909 --> 01:14:20.210
And, um, the church, the church that we were at wasn't, wasn't quite supporting us in the way that we needed.

01:14:20.664 --> 01:14:29.395
And, um, so we were just kind of looking, kind of looking and, you know, one, one Sunday morning, Billy had a, she had a work thing that she had a training that she had to go to.

01:14:30.345 --> 01:14:33.095
And so I'm just like, okay, fine, whatever.

01:14:33.095 --> 01:14:34.494
I'll just go to vintage.

01:14:34.625 --> 01:14:34.994
Yep.

01:14:35.055 --> 01:14:39.145
And, you know, at the time, Everybody asks me, where's Julie when I go to my regular church.

01:14:39.645 --> 01:14:40.024
Yep.

01:14:40.574 --> 01:14:55.505
Um, and so I went in and it was just one of those things where it was like, Uh, So growing up really conservative, um, very high emphasis on theology, very high emphasis on biblical doctrine, which I think is 100 percent important.

01:14:56.265 --> 01:15:00.305
Um, where it was lacking was in life.

01:15:01.175 --> 01:15:13.895
And yeah, I walked in there and it was very, This is how you do it, but there wasn't a lot of Yeah, and so when he walked into Vintage, it was the first time that I had ever felt this, like, tangible presence.

01:15:14.534 --> 01:15:16.114
Where it was like, no, God's here.

01:15:17.664 --> 01:15:23.675
And it was something that I didn't realize until that moment that I'd been so hungry for.

01:15:23.744 --> 01:15:24.045
Hmm.

01:15:24.675 --> 01:15:29.234
And so literally I walked in and I'm like, okay, Billy, come back next week.

01:15:29.295 --> 01:15:30.824
If you really don't like this.

01:15:30.845 --> 01:15:31.154
Great.

01:15:31.154 --> 01:15:34.284
But I'm like, in my mind, this is the place that's already done.

01:15:34.345 --> 01:15:34.604
Yeah.

01:15:34.694 --> 01:15:34.935
Yeah.

01:15:35.314 --> 01:15:36.595
And so, yeah.

01:15:36.595 --> 01:15:37.965
So she came and she's like, this is it.

01:15:38.064 --> 01:15:38.925
So we've been there ever since.

01:15:38.925 --> 01:15:40.234
The music is so much better.

01:15:40.645 --> 01:15:45.444
Well, and at that point it, I mean, it was a little bit better, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't glorious.

01:15:45.475 --> 01:15:46.194
It wasn't glorious.

01:15:46.244 --> 01:15:54.640
You know, we've come along and it's fun too, because like, I've actually, I've So I never got back involved with music from the stage from playing, which I had been at our previous church.

01:15:55.220 --> 01:16:00.020
Um, but I jumped in my brother, he was, uh, mixing at the time.

01:16:00.069 --> 01:16:04.109
And so he's just like, why don't you come, you know, learn and mix on occasion.

01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:06.369
And so, yeah.

01:16:06.420 --> 01:16:09.380
So, you know, that got to a point where I was trading back and forth with him.

01:16:09.380 --> 01:16:16.960
We'd mix off and on every week and, you know, it was like mixing a band with drums in a little elementary school gym and it was a nightmare.

01:16:17.814 --> 01:16:21.935
And, you know, now we've got a bigger space and we've got a, you know, a full pro sound rig.

01:16:21.935 --> 01:16:25.444
And, um, so now I'm doing that every week.

01:16:26.175 --> 01:16:28.114
So I mix front of house every week there.

01:16:28.135 --> 01:16:32.114
And, um, it's very musical and I love doing it.

01:16:32.204 --> 01:16:37.514
And it's, you know, it's, it's rewarding in its own, in its own sense.

01:16:37.984 --> 01:16:45.125
We moved out of the family section, but hadn't really talked about your brother, but it feels like we should touch on that It feels like an important relationship in your life.

01:16:45.125 --> 01:16:46.225
He's here local and stuff.

01:16:46.234 --> 01:16:46.545
Yeah.

01:16:46.654 --> 01:16:50.005
Yeah Family kids to two kids.

01:16:50.045 --> 01:16:52.925
Um, his oldest is actually up at South Dakota School of Mines.

01:16:52.965 --> 01:16:56.449
Oh, his youngest is graduating this year Okay.

01:16:56.460 --> 01:16:57.369
Um, just his two kids.

01:16:57.399 --> 01:16:58.560
So his are a little older than yours?

01:16:58.569 --> 01:16:59.569
Yeah, a little older than ours.

01:16:59.569 --> 01:17:04.220
Yeah, so he's definitely in that phase of life where he's kind of moving out of, you know, the kids stage.

01:17:04.220 --> 01:17:04.560
Yeah, yeah.

01:17:04.560 --> 01:17:05.649
Into just them.

01:17:05.750 --> 01:17:15.500
Um, yeah, they actually, so they were a part of Vintage too for quite a few years and eventually left and went, uh, Greek Orthodox, which was kind of an interesting shift.

01:17:15.500 --> 01:17:17.007
Well, I've been listening to St.

01:17:17.007 --> 01:17:17.393
Spyridon.

01:17:17.393 --> 01:17:17.779
Yeah.

01:17:17.779 --> 01:17:18.060
Yeah.

01:17:18.060 --> 01:17:18.798
Uh, for a while.

01:17:19.289 --> 01:17:19.979
Uh, quite a bit.

01:17:19.979 --> 01:17:21.399
And actually, yeah, that's where they're at.

01:17:21.409 --> 01:17:28.270
One of my best friends, uh, girlfriends, uh, my wife's best girlfriend, her son is dating the daughter of the pastor.

01:17:28.289 --> 01:17:28.689
Oh, really?

01:17:28.710 --> 01:17:28.770
St.

01:17:28.770 --> 01:17:29.359
Spyron Don.

01:17:29.369 --> 01:17:29.619
Nice.

01:17:29.939 --> 01:17:39.619
And I'm, I'm super excited cause I listened to it back in the COVID days when there was just a lot of extra time on your hands and, and, uh, I've been intrigued.

01:17:41.234 --> 01:17:41.265
Sure.

01:17:41.295 --> 01:17:44.774
And actually met a couple of folks that used to go to our church that have moved down there too.

01:17:44.805 --> 01:17:45.145
Yeah.

01:17:45.494 --> 01:17:54.345
Well, and I think one of the things that, that, that my brother connected to and I think is really fascinating is just how closely they tie their roots to the early apostolic church.

01:17:54.835 --> 01:17:56.045
Barely, barely changed.

01:17:56.064 --> 01:18:03.329
Um, and, um, There's a, there's a, there's a richness in the history there.

01:18:03.380 --> 01:18:03.710
Yeah.

01:18:03.760 --> 01:18:12.779
That I think a lot of more modern churches that are popular and they've gone, they've gone cultural, lose that rich history.

01:18:12.779 --> 01:18:13.260
Yeah.

01:18:13.340 --> 01:18:13.800
Yeah.

01:18:13.909 --> 01:18:14.180
Yeah.

01:18:14.180 --> 01:18:20.229
No, I would tend to agree that, uh, our pastor would call it the kind of Jesus is my boyfriend churches.

01:18:20.319 --> 01:18:20.810
Sure.

01:18:21.710 --> 01:18:25.710
And, you know, and it's kind of the opposite when you go to the Orthodox kind of style, right?

01:18:25.710 --> 01:18:28.595
Like, this is, no, this is like 2, 000 years of, you know, Precedent.

01:18:28.664 --> 01:18:35.404
Yeah, and there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of the liturgy there that that to me is very foreign But at the same time you step back and you look at it.

01:18:35.404 --> 01:18:38.685
It's like oh, there's a lot of there's a lot of rich History here.

01:18:38.854 --> 01:18:44.914
Yeah that I can appreciate, you know, I don't think for me personally It's like that's not the direction that I have interested in going.

01:18:44.984 --> 01:18:57.770
Yeah, but there's a lot of you know, so I think Circling back to my brother though One of the things that was interesting when they made that move is they cut like a lot of their family and friends circles kind of shifted that way.

01:18:58.369 --> 01:19:03.010
And so it's just kind of, we don't see them as often anymore.

01:19:03.279 --> 01:19:07.010
And, um, yeah, so it, it's definitely a bummer for sure.

01:19:07.029 --> 01:19:08.579
I miss, I miss seeing them.

01:19:09.210 --> 01:19:11.465
Um, You know, they have a busy life.

01:19:11.465 --> 01:19:12.244
We have a busy life.

01:19:12.675 --> 01:19:14.425
And sometimes those things just get in the way.

01:19:14.425 --> 01:19:18.375
And, um, Yeah, make them a nice table one of these days.

01:19:18.845 --> 01:19:19.654
We have you over more.

01:19:19.704 --> 01:19:20.095
Right.

01:19:20.734 --> 01:19:26.515
Maybe, uh, maybe it's on me to make the first move to, uh, to kind of make that a priority.

01:19:26.574 --> 01:19:27.675
Some initiation, yeah.

01:19:27.675 --> 01:19:29.534
Yeah, to get together a little bit more often.

01:19:29.734 --> 01:19:31.064
Yeah, that's fair.

01:19:31.444 --> 01:19:33.805
Um, Big election tomorrow.

01:19:35.685 --> 01:19:36.635
Yes, there is.

01:19:37.104 --> 01:19:38.635
Um, what's your prediction?

01:19:46.064 --> 01:19:49.965
My prediction, I think, I think it's going to go towards Trump.

01:19:51.645 --> 01:19:51.965
Why?

01:19:53.345 --> 01:20:07.984
Um, I think there's just a lot of dissatisfaction in, um, middle to lower class especially with just cost of living and inability to, to really thrive.

01:20:09.125 --> 01:20:11.675
Um, I think you've seen a lot of people just like that.

01:20:11.675 --> 01:20:13.715
We're getting by that are not getting by.

01:20:13.824 --> 01:20:21.965
Yeah I think the border crisis is Pretty huge and there's a lot of a lot of dissatisfaction.

01:20:21.965 --> 01:20:36.345
I think in in Lower income areas where it's like the government is putting so much money towards illegals that there it's not going to them anymore and that's How can you prioritize?

01:20:36.854 --> 01:20:42.779
people who don't Don't come here legally over people who are struggling that are part of your society.

01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:43.920
Yeah things like that.

01:20:44.029 --> 01:20:44.260
Yeah.

01:20:44.430 --> 01:20:51.319
Yeah, so I think Leaving aside the potential of fraud.

01:20:52.520 --> 01:20:54.319
I think it's gonna go to Trump personal.

01:20:54.319 --> 01:20:56.550
Oh, yeah I think leaving aside the potential of fraud.

01:20:56.550 --> 01:21:10.854
I think you'd get 300 Yeah, and you know an unpopular opinion, yeah, well when it's difficult when you have Like California that just made it illegal to ask for id When you vote, what the hell is this?

01:21:11.064 --> 01:21:14.364
Like, that's It's looney bins, isn't it?

01:21:14.364 --> 01:21:14.814
Yeah.

01:21:14.875 --> 01:21:24.465
I mean that's, you know, even people, I, I have, I have a friend who came here from Brazil and it's like, he's like, that's one of the hallmarks of citizenship.

01:21:24.465 --> 01:21:29.279
You come here, you do the work, you become a citizen and you vote.

01:21:29.279 --> 01:21:32.555
The thing that you get is the ability to vote and the ability to drive.

01:21:33.319 --> 01:21:33.859
the election.

01:21:33.859 --> 01:21:36.130
And so that's, I hope he voted twice for Trump.

01:21:37.420 --> 01:21:40.359
Yeah, went in once with his ID and went in once without his ID.

01:21:41.859 --> 01:21:43.010
No, no.

01:21:43.090 --> 01:21:45.840
Um, you know, and I think I've never voted for Trump yet.

01:21:45.840 --> 01:21:52.020
This is my first time, but I just, I marked the ballot for Trump this time just cause two reasons for me.

01:21:52.739 --> 01:21:54.515
Well, Two main reasons.

01:21:54.515 --> 01:22:02.975
But yeah, one, what you were talking about, just the current conditions and the mismanagement of the economy and the relations and the demonizing.

01:22:03.494 --> 01:22:06.515
All that, that's big one for me.

01:22:06.515 --> 01:22:12.045
Number two is, um, the coalition he's built around him.

01:22:12.114 --> 01:22:12.925
Absolutely.

01:22:12.984 --> 01:22:15.966
You know, I was actually a fan of Bobby Kennedy.

01:22:15.966 --> 01:22:27.109
I was, I've always been a fan of, uh, Tulsi and, uh, You know, Musk is putting his balls in the line with this endeavor and his money.

01:22:27.649 --> 01:22:38.439
Well, and I think one of the coolest things about that coalition is just the various aspects that can be brought together to really align with a wider population of America.

01:22:39.149 --> 01:22:50.020
So I think everybody With any common sense should be totally thrilled with musk and his idea of coming in with the government with the accountability and just see an Efficiency and just a stream line.

01:22:50.270 --> 01:22:51.720
I've been Ron Paul over the weekend.

01:22:51.729 --> 01:22:57.109
It was like hey, here's the the pod father Yeah, the government efficiency movement.

01:22:57.189 --> 01:23:03.140
Yeah Bobby Kennedy and his focus on health Health and, and the debt.

01:23:03.199 --> 01:23:04.220
And the debt, yeah.

01:23:04.220 --> 01:23:14.220
I mean, when you really talk about the debt as, as taking over, you know, the majority of our GDP in the country going to paying the interest on the debt, that's, that's unsustainable.

01:23:14.909 --> 01:23:17.390
And you know, that's, that's economic collapse.

01:23:17.770 --> 01:23:18.430
Yeah, yeah.

01:23:18.510 --> 01:23:21.659
And so if you don't fix that, there is no future.

01:23:22.310 --> 01:23:22.510
Yeah.

01:23:22.560 --> 01:23:25.279
Um, and, and, yeah.

01:23:26.130 --> 01:23:41.469
You know, so yeah, I mean, we were, I mean, I was really impressed with, with Kennedy as well, and my wife, you know, she's with his children's health defense, um, you know, she's been a fan of, of Kennedy for a long time, um, and so I think, um, you know, I have a lot of respect for Tulsi Gabbard.

01:23:41.600 --> 01:23:56.399
Um, you know, there's just a lot of these people that have come around him and if he can pull these people together and actually Stick with what he's promised of making these people part of his team Um if they can get um, kelly and casey means in there on the health side.

01:23:56.409 --> 01:24:05.869
I mean, there's just some incredible people who have the ability to just foundationally bring the country back to something great.

01:24:05.869 --> 01:24:06.252
Totally.

01:24:06.252 --> 01:24:13.520
And I know, you know, MAGA has been demonized, but it's like, make America great, make America healthy, make, make us responsible.

01:24:13.560 --> 01:24:18.819
You know, just all of the things that like, cut the you know Make America fiscally responsible.

01:24:18.840 --> 01:24:19.850
Fiscally responsible.

01:24:20.340 --> 01:24:24.630
And if for no other I don't think Trump did that well his first term.

01:24:24.789 --> 01:24:24.979
No.

01:24:25.020 --> 01:24:25.380
At all.

01:24:25.420 --> 01:24:25.720
No.

01:24:25.750 --> 01:24:34.699
I mean he, he just kind of fell in line with but he, you know, new to Washington, surrounded himself with people who Well, what's crazy to me, it.

01:24:35.829 --> 01:24:38.140
This is, I shared this with my exchange student.

01:24:38.170 --> 01:24:41.539
He was like, why should I care about the presidential election in America or whatever?

01:24:41.539 --> 01:24:54.488
And I was like, well, like since Trump's presidency, when the war machine and the pharma machine and some other machines realized that Trump wasn't as influenceable as they wished.

01:24:55.140 --> 01:25:00.600
They've captured now the Democrats are celebrating the endorsement of Liz Cheney.

01:25:00.699 --> 01:25:05.420
Oh, I know And the war machine now has captured the Democratic Party.

01:25:05.460 --> 01:25:07.890
What a and the Democrats don't realize this.

01:25:07.890 --> 01:25:10.090
What a reversal though Huge.

01:25:10.159 --> 01:25:19.500
I mean, just the fact that the Democratic Party embraces Dick and Liz Cheney is, when they were, they were Satan incarnate.

01:25:19.569 --> 01:25:20.420
I know.

01:25:21.329 --> 01:25:38.649
You know, that, that, that's an, that's an indicator and, you know, my, you know, I just hope whatever happens that we can root out some of the corruption and yeah, it's, you know, it's so funny too, because it's like every election is like, this is the most important election.

01:25:38.760 --> 01:25:39.050
It's.

01:25:40.975 --> 01:25:50.524
I don't know that this is the most important election, but I think this is, this has, what happens after this one is gonna pivotally define.

01:25:51.154 --> 01:25:53.824
The direction of America for a long time.

01:25:53.935 --> 01:25:54.725
I agree with that.

01:25:55.324 --> 01:26:08.645
And it could like the Democratic Party could largely crumble into something different Not largely but like it's gonna have a new it's gonna have an identity crisis in a major way I think it does have an identity crisis already true.

01:26:08.715 --> 01:26:13.225
I think with just a pivot to war and the pivot towards Right non liberty.

01:26:13.404 --> 01:26:14.664
Yeah blocking speech.

01:26:14.835 --> 01:26:15.114
Yeah.

01:26:15.664 --> 01:26:17.890
Yeah all those things for sure Yeah.

01:26:17.890 --> 01:26:21.579
No, I mean, that's what the core principles of liberalism, classic liberalism, right?

01:26:21.609 --> 01:26:27.210
And that's classic liberalism is really just gone from the democratic.

01:26:27.239 --> 01:26:27.710
Yeah.

01:26:27.750 --> 01:26:29.439
It's alive and well in my brain.

01:26:29.569 --> 01:26:29.869
Right.

01:26:29.920 --> 01:26:35.529
You know, and it's become part of the platform that's forming around Tulsi and Bobby and Trumpy.

01:26:35.689 --> 01:26:35.949
Yeah.

01:26:36.210 --> 01:26:37.359
So we'll see how it goes.

01:26:37.359 --> 01:26:38.119
Yeah, we'll see.

01:26:38.430 --> 01:26:38.920
We'll see.

01:26:38.989 --> 01:26:39.689
For sure.

01:26:40.250 --> 01:26:41.270
Um.

01:26:41.935 --> 01:26:44.085
I think that brings us up to the loco experience.

01:26:44.164 --> 01:26:44.545
Okay.

01:26:45.045 --> 01:26:49.314
The, uh, craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share with our listeners.

01:26:49.414 --> 01:26:54.345
Yeah, that's the, you know, honestly, in, in thinking through this, it's like, that was probably the toughest one.

01:26:55.364 --> 01:26:58.015
Do you want to smoke a joint in this podcast live right now?

01:26:58.024 --> 01:26:58.704
There you go.

01:26:59.125 --> 01:26:59.515
There you go.

01:26:59.515 --> 01:27:00.314
That would be right up there.

01:27:00.404 --> 01:27:01.645
Um, yeah.

01:27:01.715 --> 01:27:03.694
So, you know, it's, it's so funny.

01:27:03.694 --> 01:27:12.579
Cause I, you know, thinking back to it, it's like, You know, my dad really like raising us instilled like responsibility and diligence and, you know, all of this kind of things.

01:27:13.079 --> 01:27:18.560
And, you know, it's like, when I think back, I'm like, I kind of like, in some ways have lived a really boring life.

01:27:18.560 --> 01:27:24.238
Like, I'm like, has there been anything that's crazy or, um, you know, it was tough, like thinking about it.

01:27:24.539 --> 01:27:31.239
thinking through um, crazy things that have happened or crazy things that I've done.

01:27:32.340 --> 01:27:36.670
Um, yeah, if you ask my wife, she's like, probably not.

01:27:36.680 --> 01:27:38.409
You're pretty flat and boring.

01:27:39.239 --> 01:27:41.020
What's the craziest thing your wife has done?

01:27:42.310 --> 01:27:45.119
Oh, move here.

01:27:45.149 --> 01:27:45.640
Marry me.

01:27:45.670 --> 01:27:45.789
I don't know.

01:27:46.239 --> 01:27:56.470
Um, Yeah, she, no, she moved here when, when, uh, a friend of hers was just like, Hey, let's move to, you know, I'm moving to Colorado, I think you should come with, and it was literally like that much thought.

01:27:56.470 --> 01:28:02.390
It was just like, okay, um, no, you know, it, that's, that's a tough one.

01:28:02.390 --> 01:28:08.409
I don't know that there's, you know, I haven't necessarily lived that much of a crazy, of a crazy life.

01:28:08.420 --> 01:28:08.970
That's okay.

01:28:09.060 --> 01:28:09.649
That's okay.

01:28:10.050 --> 01:28:15.439
Um, let's see, I should give you another, uh, challenging question instead.

01:28:15.920 --> 01:28:17.979
What's your most embarrassing moment?

01:28:20.130 --> 01:28:21.630
No, you don't have to answer that.

01:28:23.430 --> 01:28:31.659
Um, let me count the ways, um, there have been a lot, but that come to mind right now, I don't know.

01:28:31.899 --> 01:28:34.489
Okay, I'm gonna let you off the hook on that one too.

01:28:35.010 --> 01:28:41.710
Um, Forrest, why don't you tell the people where to find themselves some, uh, luxury furniture art?

01:28:41.829 --> 01:28:43.119
Luxury furniture art?

01:28:43.199 --> 01:28:45.220
Um, are you thinking phone number?

01:28:45.220 --> 01:28:45.420
Website?

01:28:45.420 --> 01:28:46.130
No, website, probably.

01:28:46.130 --> 01:28:46.800
Yeah, website.

01:28:47.100 --> 01:28:49.569
Yeah, um, so, website is Phone number's probably on there.

01:28:49.720 --> 01:28:50.590
Right, yeah, it is.

01:28:50.630 --> 01:28:53.310
Um, yeah, website is just forrestkramer.

01:28:53.310 --> 01:28:53.680
com.

01:28:53.850 --> 01:28:56.970
So, F O R R E S T C R A M E R dot com.

01:28:56.979 --> 01:28:57.239
Very cool.

01:28:57.250 --> 01:28:58.119
Um, just my name.

01:28:58.850 --> 01:29:00.930
Um, Instagram is just at forrest.

01:29:01.079 --> 01:29:01.539
kramer.

01:29:01.930 --> 01:29:03.670
Okay, you got some pretty pictures up there.

01:29:03.670 --> 01:29:04.930
I'm got a few got a few.

01:29:04.970 --> 01:29:08.069
Yeah, I got to work on that do more Yeah, definitely got to do more.

01:29:08.449 --> 01:29:11.369
Yeah, social media is not not one of my strong suits.

01:29:11.430 --> 01:29:13.560
Yeah It doesn't surprise me.

01:29:13.989 --> 01:29:17.750
Oh, do you know about Jonathan Pagel Pagel?

01:29:18.720 --> 01:29:20.060
Names not right now.

01:29:20.060 --> 01:29:29.260
He's actually He's pals with like Jordan Peterson Okay, some of those folks in that space, but he was he's an icon carver from the Greek Orthodox.

01:29:29.390 --> 01:29:30.029
Oh, really?

01:29:30.029 --> 01:29:35.869
You And he's got a, um, a really amazing podcast called The Symbolic World.

01:29:36.079 --> 01:29:36.500
Okay.

01:29:36.680 --> 01:29:41.918
Um, and uh, it's all, mostly about the symbolism of the world.

01:29:42.159 --> 01:29:43.489
Old Testament stories.

01:29:44.760 --> 01:29:44.989
Yeah.

01:29:45.449 --> 01:29:45.880
Yeah.

01:29:46.140 --> 01:29:56.310
And, and I think given your basis in art and stuff, I honestly think that you might find a lot of inspiration potentially, even for some of your pieces or thought work with, with his, with his work.

01:29:56.340 --> 01:29:58.819
Well, and that's, you know, bring Jordan Peterson.

01:29:58.840 --> 01:30:14.229
You know, I listened to a lot of his podcasts when I work and I love sleep to them, you know, one of the things that, that I love about him is just his, It's just his ability to grab symbolism out of things and draw, you know, symbolism and psychology together.

01:30:14.350 --> 01:30:15.319
It's just really fascinating.

01:30:15.319 --> 01:30:15.569
Yeah.

01:30:15.600 --> 01:30:16.189
No, I agree.

01:30:16.189 --> 01:30:21.689
And that's why he's so close with Jonathan is Jonathan's like that, but a couple of notches over on the symbolism side.

01:30:21.689 --> 01:30:23.009
Sure.

01:30:23.010 --> 01:30:23.489
So, yeah.

01:30:23.489 --> 01:30:26.649
And I imagine I've probably heard some of his, some of his podcasts.

01:30:26.670 --> 01:30:32.289
I just haven't like the name, you know, I'll, uh, I'll show you the one that I'm talking about here.

01:30:32.289 --> 01:30:32.550
Sure.

01:30:32.630 --> 01:30:33.130
Off the air.

01:30:33.149 --> 01:30:33.449
Sure.

01:30:33.520 --> 01:30:34.460
Well, thanks a bunch.

01:30:34.489 --> 01:30:35.449
I appreciate your being here.

01:30:35.590 --> 01:30:36.050
Thank you.

01:30:36.500 --> 01:30:41.529
And, uh, You know, I'll look for my, uh, new coffee table to be delivered here when you're ready.

01:30:42.180 --> 01:30:43.859
Sounds like, sounds like a plan.

01:30:45.680 --> 01:30:46.449
Thanks, Forrest.

01:30:46.460 --> 01:30:47.020
Thank you, Garrett.

01:30:47.552 --> 01:30:53.893
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Loco Experience podcast produced and sponsored by Loco Think Tank.

01:30:55.493 --> 01:30:57.672
This is your producer Alma Arellano.

01:30:57.783 --> 01:30:59.983
Check out our website at thelocoexperience.

01:30:59.983 --> 01:31:04.453
com to find all of our episodes, nominate future guests, or leave us a message.

01:31:04.832 --> 01:31:09.972
You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at The Loco Experience.

01:31:10.353 --> 01:31:13.682
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01:31:13.903 --> 01:31:15.762
Until next time, stay loco.